Demonstration of Generator Support
Comments
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Re: Demonstration of Generator SupportBlackcherry04 wrote: »I'd love to test one, but I am out of testing money this year. I'll be at the Inverter SVC this week, I'll see if they have one in yet. May be they'll let me try one.
I would be kind of cool, if you get a chance to test one, to hear how it works. We're going to buy a new inverter for our boat. We got an old Power Tech inverter/shore charger in it right now - 24V. I've been kind of waiting for that new Magnum to see how it works.
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Chris -
Re: Demonstration of Generator Support
I havn't been down in a couple weeks. The last time I was down they had tried to order a couple and never got a order acknowledgment and they are a big dealer. This a big place they do all kinds of Tour Buses and they really would like to try one. I ended up with a couple Xanterx SW 3012's instead. I buy mostly used Inverters that their customers won't pay too fix. Most the time I get the Inverter free and pay for they parts they have in it. It's win/win for both of us.ChrisOlson wrote: »I would be kind of cool, if you get a chance to test one, to hear how it works. We're going to buy a new inverter for our boat. We got an old Power Tech inverter/shore charger in it right now - 24V. I've been kind of waiting for that new Magnum to see how it works.
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Chris -
Re: Demonstration of Generator SupportChrisOlson wrote: »I get off-road #2 premium (Cenex Ruby Fieldmaster, cetane #48 ) for $3.03/gallon right now. We ran the Robin all night last night, from sundown to sunup - about 8 hours - on 1.6 gallons. The AC unit pulls 9.6 amps @ 240 volt with the compressor running, and starting amps for the compressor is about 30 amps. So the Robin is only running at about 2/3's load for just the AC, but it does need the inverter to help it to start the compressor.
Wow! That's 10kWh/gallon. This is excellent fuel economy. Still, it's $0.30/kWh, not including generator amortization. Not that cheap. -
Re: Demonstration of Generator SupportWow! That's 10kWh/gallon. This is excellent fuel economy. Still, it's $0.30/kWh, not including generator amortization. Not that cheap.
Yeah, but it's not that good because the compressor doesn't run steady. Sometimes it cycles off and all that's running is the air handler so the load on the Robin might go down to <500 watts for awhile. Then the compressor restarts and the load goes back up. It's not a constant load. The outfit that put in our XR13 sized it so it should run constantly in really hot weather, but it hasn't been doing that the last couple of nights.
The Robin diesel ran all night last night again, and I haven't re-filled the fuel tank yet today. When I shut it off this morning the gauge was a little below half and the tank holds 3.5 gallons. I got a 125 gallon tank in the back of my service truck with a pump and meter on it and I'll refill it from that later to find out what it burned last night. But it's still pretty darned efficient as far as generators go.
And no, it's not cheap - but it is for off-grid and being able to run a 2-ton central AC for 48 hours straight now, and considering that the AC load has us up to ~40 kWh/day consumption. That's the whole point - using the little diesel for prime power for several hours every day when the RE system would be hard pressed to meet the load is expensive while it runs. But it's cheap when we factor in that the power is free the rest of the day. And for the cost of it we are able to have AC 24 hours a day. It would be less affordable with a big generator sized to start that AC unit. But with the tiny one on gen support we can do it without emptying our pockets for fuel.
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Chris -
Re: Demonstration of Generator Support
I ran the Honda EU 2000 from around 2:00 yesterday till midnight ( 10 hrs ) on 2 gallons of town gas @ $3.36 a gallon. I had to buy boat gas ( 89 octane and no ethanol ) for $4.09 to replace it. Thats works out to $.67 a hour on town gas. I'll see if the boat gas does better. For all I was running, I couldn't be happier. Now if I could just get a jet ski (255 hp ) to use less than 5 gallons a hour, I'd really be happy........ I know, stay off the throttle or leave it on the lift. -
Re: Demonstration of Generator SupportBlackcherry04 wrote: »I ran the Honda EU 2000 from around 2:00 yesterday till midnight ( 10 hrs ) on 2 gallons of town gas
That sounds about right. I wouldn't expect the EU2000 to be quite as efficient as a little diesel, but we're both in the same ballpark. I set the Gen Support amps to 11 last night, so it can be loaded to 2600 VA max, but I would guess its average load was closer to 1,200-1,300 VA for the 8 hour run last night.
But there's a lot of folks who are not going to understand this, even so. If you had to run the generator 24 hours a day, then it would be expensive. But we got a hybrid system here. The solar (or wind or hydro) supplies the power most of the day for free. But it don't work sometimes. The generator works whenever you need it. If you want to Live Large on off-grid power using the smallest generator that will do the job, and using the inverter to help it out, is pretty cheap for what you get out of it in not having to give up some creature comforts and conveniences.
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Chris -
Re: Demonstration of Generator Support
I could put plenty solar on my boat, but it's under cover at the dock, If I am out I have to park it a certain way and stay away from the trees. I like the shade, I can winch the boat around so I keep the sun path long ways to the boat and keep it off the sides. Solar would just be a part time deal. I use my 8.2 kw in town to off set any gain I'd have here. -
Re: Demonstration of Generator Support
Well, for us the Robin is running again today. We got no wind power with only a 6 mph breeze. The solar is only running at about 20% of its rated output due to heavy overcast, thunderstorms overnight. I got a bunch of work to do in the shop after lunch that's going to take about 30 kWh in 5 hours. Plus we got water to heat and other stuff to run. Plus I got walleye fishin' to do tonight. You can either wait for the weather to get your work done, or start the little generator and say to heck with the weather.
I squirted 1.7 gallons of fuel into the Robin from my service truck for its run last night. This is what it takes to bring the little Robin online for prime power for a few hours today, and save on the batteries. I figured if I demonstrate what it's about with a video, maybe more people will understand why we do this:
[video=youtube_share;Rn82oAcQqD0]
http://youtu.be/Rn82oAcQqD0[/video]
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Chris -
Re: Demonstration of Generator Support
Nice little video Chris. Just how much do you hear of the Robin when it's running? In the house I mean. It would mean death or dismemberment if anything were heard in my house at night.
Ralph -
Re: Demonstration of Generator SupportNice little video Chris. Just how much do you hear of the Robin when it's running? In the house I mean.
Zero. If the east windows are open and you listen carefully standing right by the window, you can faintly hear the diesel. But if there's even a ceiling fan running in the house you can't hear it even with the windows open.
That was the purpose of the new powerhouse and it's all designed for maximum sound suppression. It's 150 feet east of the house, it has 6.5" fiberglass insulation in the walls and ceiling, plus 3/4" foam. The exhaust and ventilation go out the east wall of the powerhouse and the sound from those is dampened by the fact that there's two pine trees right there on either side. Even so, standing right outside the powerhouse with the diesel running, it's about half the loudness of somebody standing there talking in normal tones.
Here's proof for the doubters, and what you can do for a noisy generator by paying attention to details in damping the noise from it. The birds and the freaking wind turbine that's 50 feet to the south of it make more noise than that diesel generator. But if you listen very carefully you can barely hear it in the background.
[video=youtube_share;X0T1VMReU6k]
http://youtu.be/X0T1VMReU6k[/video]
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Chris -
Re: Demonstration of Generator SupportBlackcherry04 wrote: »I ran the Honda EU 2000 from around 2:00 yesterday till midnight ( 10 hrs ) on 2 gallons of town gas @ $3.36 a gallon.
I did a measured fuel consumption test on the Robin diesel on prime power this morning for 3.7 hours to see how it compares to a EU2000. I measured the kWh output of it with an old GE utility meter with the pointers on it, and it produced 7.2 kWh in 3.7 hours, doing water heating and running AC and normal loads, with the inverter assisting it most of the time in Gen Support mode. We had very poor solar conditions this morning, with a little wind, so I figured it would be a good time to test it.
The ambient air temp during the test was 81°F and 89% RH. The temp inside the powerhouse was 109°F after 1 hour and stayed there for the rest of the test.
The Robin burned 3,104cc of #2, or about .22 gal/hr. kWh/gallon figures out to 8.78 at an average load of 1,946 watts. The fuel cost $3.039/gallon at today's prices, so the cost/kWh for fuel was 34.7 cents. So, basicially, the EU2000 can't even come close to matching it. Not even on the same planet much less the same ballpark. But right in the same range as the Yanmar YDG-series diesels I've tested before.
So my rough conclusion is that using a tiny to small gasoline generator for off-grid prime power with gen support probably isn't practical. It works great for the short run times involved with peak load support. But the venerable diesel engine, being an unthrottled engine, has a "problem" with the only way to cut power back under partial loads being to reduce fuel rate. So it runs at lean air/fuel mixtures that won't even make a gasoline engine cough. The diesel is not going to be beat any time soon in the efficiency dept.
So that makes a small diesel practical for a generator support application like this for people who need to run AC units in hot climates. I had the "vision" of being able to do it by throwing more solar power at it here, and that only works when the sun shines, basically. An AC unit consumes unbelievable amounts of kWh. By using the littlest diesel generator I could find, and using the gen support to make it work, I think I got the out-of-pocket expense to run our AC down to less that what somebody in California would pay for peak rate grid power with their "Tier" pricing system.
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Chris -
Re: Demonstration of Generator Support
I dropped back and went old school today. I cut the Outback charger completely off and used the IOTA -75. I immediately noticed the generator RPM drop and the output from the IOTA was a steady 75 amps. I got a feeling the Outback is playing with the output of the charger and you can't see it because of the sampling time or dampening of the display. It was too hot to take any direct readings, The Magnum Inverter did the same thing, one minute it was at 70 amps, then 35 amps and back to 70. the overall average was about 50 Amps. I can make it work, but you just seem to never get what you want. -
Re: Demonstration of Generator Support
Chris
Here is a quote from the otherpower site from when you bought the honda.But as it stands at present, gasoline is a better buy/BTU than either diesel fuel or LPG. Diesel fuel is 65 cents more/gallon here right now than gasoline is. So neither can compete, despite a diesel's higher thermal efficiency, in cost/kWh with the gasoline fueled genset.
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Chris
Is the new generator low consumption enough to make up for the price differance of deisel to gas?
In case I took the quote out of context, it was in this post.
http://www.fieldlines.com/index.php/topic,147093.msg1015503.html#msg1015503
gww
ps since you mention the yamer deisel below, I take it all deisels are not created equal. -
Re: Demonstration of Generator SupportChrisOlson wrote: »The Robin burned 3,104cc of #2, or about .22 gal/hr. kWh/gallon figures out to 8.78 at an average load of 1,946 watts. The fuel cost $3.039/gallon at today's prices, so the cost/kWh for fuel was 34.7 cents. So, basicially, the EU2000 can't even come close to matching it. Not even on the same planet much less the same ballpark. But right in the same range as the Yanmar YDG-series diesels I've tested before.
The Honda spec for an eu2000i running at 100% and 25% loads:Run Time per Tankful 4hrs. @ rated load, 9.6 hrs. @ 1/4 load
1,600 watt * 100% * 4 hours * 1/1.1 gallons of gas = 5,818 WH per gallon at 100% load
1,600 watt * 25% * 9.6 hours I 1/1.1 gallons of gas = 3,490 wh per gallon at 25% load
So--from a gph point of view, at near rated load, they are similar in fuel consumption (based on factory spec for Honda--I know I cannot guarantee that they meet this spec). And at 25% load, the Honda will use somewhat more fuel per kWH--But that is without the cost of an inverter+battery bank.So my rough conclusion is that using a tiny to small gasoline generator for off-grid prime power with gen support probably isn't practical. It works great for the short run times involved with peak load support. But the venerable diesel engine, being an unthrottled engine, has a "problem" with the only way to cut power back under partial loads being to reduce fuel rate. So it runs at lean air/fuel mixtures that won't even make a gasoline engine cough. The diesel is not going to be beat any time soon in the efficiency dept.
I do believe that Chris' experimentation with Generator Support with either type of generator is showing that this is a great improvement in fuel economy for folks. Allows them to run the gensets in their "fuel efficient" ranges and get useful power out of them (running loads, charging batteries, etc.).
And for folks with non-inverter gensets, running >~50% load is going to even be more fuel efficient than running your XX kW genset at Y kWH of load.
Fuel price ($$$/kWH or kWH/$$$), depends on local fuel costs... Not sure I could find a place in a major metro area to get "Red Diesel" (no road taxes). Plus, diesel would (probably) be more objectionable to near by neighbors (smoke, smell, noise).So that makes a small diesel practical for a generator support application like this for people who need to run AC units in hot climates. I had the "vision" of being able to do it by throwing more solar power at it here, and that only works when the sun shines, basically. An AC unit consumes unbelievable amounts of kWh. By using the littlest diesel generator I could find, and using the gen support to make it work, I think I got the out-of-pocket expense to run our AC down to less that what somebody in California would pay for peak rate grid power with their "Tier" pricing system.
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Chris
Reducing battery cycling (Red Diesel, efficient setup, small generator) driving relatively stable loads (like A/C), you probably can meet or even exceed utility power pricing (~$0.30 to $0.50 per kWH on summer afternoons for heavy power users).
And, we do have the local pollution control laws going after all generators (diesel, gasoline, propane, etc.) to meet new pollution law requirements--Which might throw a wrench in some of these calculations/costs.
-BillNear San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset -
Re: Demonstration of Generator SupportIs the new generator low consumption enough to make up for the price differance of deisel to gas?
Diesel fuel went way down in price since back then. #2 ULSD on-road is now 9 cents cheaper per gallon than gasoline here. Take the 50 cent/gallon road tax off for #2 off-road premium, and it's 59 cents/gallon cheaper than gasoline right now. This varies by location and time of year. Gas goes up in the summer so they can rake in more money off the tourists traveling all over the place. Diesel fuel price goes up in winter due to increased demand for #2 heating oil.
Now that I got dual fuel capability I can run whichever generator is cheapest to run.
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Chris -
Re: Demonstration of Generator SupportSo--from a gph point of view, at near rated load, they are similar in fuel consumption
Except that the Robin diesel is a more powerful generator than the EU2000 at the same fuel consumption rate. It was the smallest diesel I could find that puts out split-phase power - been looking for one for months.I do believe that Chris' experimentation with Generator Support with either type of generator is showing that this is a great improvement in fuel economy for folks. Allows them to run the gensets in their "fuel efficient" ranges and get useful power out of them (running loads, charging batteries, etc.).
My idea is to never use the generator and inverter/charger for charging batteries. Let the RE system do that. And if the RE system can't keep up to charging and your normal loads, use a properly sized generator for prime power or peak load power instead of using it for charging, so the RE can do the charging part. This inherently requires using an inverter with generator support capability because nobody can afford to run a 8 or 12 kW generator when their normal loads are 2,000-3,000 watts.
But the downfall of using a little generator is that they don't have enough power to start or run the intermittent heavy-draw items, like a well pump, when the generator is otherwise fully loaded by normal loads. With an inverter with gen support, starting or running the heavy draw items is not a problem so you don't need to have a 8 or 12 kW generator.
That's what I'm trying to show.Reducing battery cycling (Red Diesel, efficient setup, small generator) driving relatively stable loads (like A/C), you probably can meet or even exceed utility power pricing (~$0.30 to $0.50 per kWH on summer afternoons for heavy power users).
I think the reduced battery cycling is going to be an additional benefit to using this setup. The "traditional" way when you're low on RE power is to run the batteries down to "X" percent SOC, then recharge them with a generator and inverter/charger. I am convinced it is more efficient, when the RE side don't work, to use that (little) generator to power loads directly so the batteries don't have to be recharged with the (typically oversized) generator.
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Chris -
Re: Demonstration of Generator SupportChrisOlson wrote: »Diesel fuel went way down in price since back then. #2 ULSD on-road is now 9 cents cheaper per gallon than gasoline here.
Where do you buy your fuel? According to THIS diesel is about 35 cents more per gallon than gasoline in Wisconsin now and with the best deal at $3.70 a gallon, about 65 cents/gallon more than the $3.05 you said you're getting it for. Quite a bargain. I'd love to know how you're getting it so cheap! (BTW - I realize "red diesel" is cheaper due to less tax, but 0.65 cheaper? and for most people who can't get red, diesel is much more expensive than regular gasoline). -
Re: Demonstration of Generator SupportChrisOlson wrote: »My idea is to never use the generator and inverter/charger for charging batteries. Let the RE system do that. And if the RE system can't keep up to charging and your normal loads, use a properly sized generator for prime power or peak load power instead of using it for charging, so the RE can do the charging part.
Never say "never". It all depends on circumstances.
If RE produces more than you use, you don't need to use a generator. Any generator use under these circumstances is a total waste.
If RE produces slightly less than you use, you have to run a generator at some point. Clearly it's more efficient to run loads directly from generator. But, if you run the generator more than is necessary to cover the gap between consumption and RE production, that's a waste. And that's a waste no matter what was the reson to run it - either to run a load (as you advocate) or to run a full charge cycle (what you call "traditional").
If RE production is very small (think winter in Seattle), you only have two choices - run generator 24/7, or use it to charge batteries. The optimal decision is probably to run it when loads are higher and charge batteries at the same time. Then you can use batteries when there's no significant loads. -
Re: Demonstration of Generator SupportWhere do you buy your fuel?
I buy #2 on-road (Cenex Roadmaster XL) and off-road (Cenex Ruby Fieldmaster) by the 7,000 gallon tanker load from Cenex Land 'O Lakes for our trucks and equipment. I burn about 34,000 gallons of off-road and ~95,000 gallons of on-road #2 per year. We got a 10,000 gallon tank for off-road here on our farm at the equipment shop. I contract the on-road fuel thru Cenex by the tanker, pre-pay it at the contract price, and we fuel the trucks at the Cenex Truck Stop in town with special "credit cards" they give us on the contract fuel.
Our last load of off-road was $3.039/gallon, delivered. My June contract for on-road was $3.579 for 7,200 gallons. Gasoline at the pump is currently $3.599 here.
Basically, only small users and independent OTR truckers (who buy fuel at different places every day) buy diesel fuel at pump prices.
Edit:
Side note - diesel fuel went down further on the futures this month. I bought my July contract for 10,000 gallons of on-road for $3.509/gallon.
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Chris -
Re: Demonstration of Generator SupportChrisOlson wrote: »I buy #2 on-road (Cenex Roadmaster XL) and off-road (Cenex Ruby Fieldmaster) by the 7,000 gallon tanker load from Cenex Land 'O Lakes for our trucks and equipment.
OK, got it. Thanks. So, for us other 99% who are "small users" your diesel vs gasoline cost equation does not work out.
Comparing wholesale diesel price to retail gasoline it not exactly a fair comparison...
BTW - looking at Central Maine Diesel's web site - they list this Yanmar diesel generator rated at 4500 watts continuous power and 0.24gal/hr at half load - about the same you're getting. They claim it is "The most fuel efficient diesel generator we have ever seen". Too bad it cost so much money..
I wouldn't mind having a diesel genset around for the fuel flexibility but honestly it would only even come close to making financial sense if I ran it at near full load for extended periods. Thankfully, I have no need to power an AC unit for days on end.
For variable loads and only occasional full loading (such as with gen support to handle brief peak loads) - the fuel efficiency of an inverter generator that can throttle up or down makes a lot more sense IMO. -
Re: Demonstration of Generator SupportBTW - looking at Central Maine Diesel's web site - they list this Yanmar diesel generator rated at 4500 watts continuous power and 0.24gal/hr at half load - about the same you're getting. They claim it is "The most fuel efficient diesel generator we have ever seen". Too bad it cost so much money..
Yes, that would have a Yanmar L-series diesel on it. The Japanese engineers that designed the Robin and the Yanmar L-series must drink coffee at the same coffee shop. They're very similar in design - both with three-lobe camshafts and pressure lube systems with bearing inserts on the rod big end, same type of cross-bolted block, same cylinder head design. My second choice would've been a Yanmar YDG-series:
http://www.yanmar.co.jp/en/powerGeneration/products/dieselGenerator/ydg/index.html
I've never been impressed with the German engineering in the Hatz diesels with their single lobe camshaft and lever-type cam followers.
An inverter-type diesel that throttles up and down with loads is a Bad Idea. You have to keep a diesel sizzling hot if you want peak efficiency (and prevent carboned-up injector tips and stuck top piston ring).
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Chris -
Re: Demonstration of Generator Support
Hi I have a duramax eh4400 gasoline genset i want to use with xw6048 with auto generator start accessory i didnt see it in the names of compatible generators does anyone know if it would work -
Re: Demonstration of Generator Support
If you're asking about being "compatible", meaning plug it in and it "just works" - no. It will require paralleling the key switch functions with the relays in the XW-AGS.
I am not familiar with the DuroMax generator. But I looked it up and found the XP4400. I could not ascertain if it has manual or automatic choke.
Basically, with the XW-AGS, if the generator is electric start it can be made to work. If it has an automatic choke it makes it easier. If it has a manual choke it will require rigging up a linear actuator (automotive door lock selenoids work good) to operate the choke, and the choke will need to be operated with relay #3 in the XW-AGS. The functions for relay #3 can do a number of different things, including pre-heat for a diesel, choke operation for a gas engine, low oil pressure shutdown bypass for gensets with a low oil pressure shutdown system, and even cool down operation to operate the Auto Throttle on Honda gensets so they idle during the cool down period instead of running at rated speed under no load.
You would have to pull the ignition key switch out of the genset and determine its pinout (with an ohm meter) to figure out what wires you need to control with the XW-AGS relays 1 & 2 for ignition or onboard electronics, and crank. But being it's an electric start genset, it should be fairly simple if you have some basic electrical and mechanical skills.
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Chris -
Re: Demonstration of Generator Support
OK thanks its electric start and its actually duromax eh4400 -
Re: Demonstration of Generator SupportChrisOlson wrote: »Yes, that would have a Yanmar L-series diesel on it. The Japanese engineers that designed the Robin and the Yanmar L-series must drink coffee at the same coffee shop. They're very similar in design - both with three-lobe camshafts and pressure lube systems with bearing inserts on the rod big end, same type of cross-bolted block, same cylinder head design. My second choice would've been a Yanmar YDG-series:
http://www.yanmar.co.jp/en/powerGeneration/products/dieselGenerator/ydg/index.html
this 400cc yanmar engines are widespread ... specifically i see that are used for boats, generators and pumps, and certainly for anything more ... you think that robin and yanmar are different engines? ... maybe taking coffee in the same coffee shop as they talked of hiring the use of that engine? ... heheheheChrisOlson wrote: »An inverter-type diesel that throttles up and down with loads is a Bad Idea. You have to keep a diesel sizzling hot if you want peak efficiency (and prevent carboned-up injector tips and stuck top piston ring).
you think there is no way that a diesel engine can be working well with a inverter system? ... inverter system has so many advantages that it would be desirable that all generators were soon inverter type...but I only speak in terms of the power electronics, and efficiency, in mechanical ambit I love reading everything you say that what I learn easily all you explain... ;-) -
Re: Demonstration of Generator Support
Diesels depend on proper temperature for efficient combustion. This is best accomplished by maintaining a steady RPM (and load). In general they do not offer a wide range of speed anyway. Thus Chris's remarks about inverter-generator design being not very efficient with diesel engines. -
Re: Demonstration of Generator Supportyou think there is no way that a diesel engine can be working well with a inverter system? ... i
'coot is correct. Cummins builds their QD (Quiet Diesel) series generator with inverters. But they're not made to run 10,000 hours either. So saying it doesn't work is not right. But diesel engines have certain requirements if you want them to last and be efficient. Putting one on an inverter is not the way to do it.
Those Yanmar L100's power just about everything that's small overseas. You see them on EVERYTHING in every place from Sweden to Turkey, Germany, you name it overseas. Here in the US and Canada they are so darned expensive that few people can afford to buy one. You can buy a Robin DY27 where you live too. Here in the US we have a thing called the EPA and they can't import 'em anymore. The exhaust temp runs so high on them that Nox is basically off the scale.
You guys over there in Europe can buy a whole bunch of cool diesel powered stuff that we can't get here in the US because of EPA.
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Chris -
Re: Demonstration of Generator Support
I also have a guardian 12k genset is this easier to wire in and configure -
Re: Demonstration of Generator Support
The Guardian will have to be converted to two wire start. There's three different versions of the Nexus controller on the Generac Guardian series and it depends on whether you have one with a 23-pin, 5-pin or 9-pin connector on the controller as to how to convert it for remote start. The Generac is designed for residential grid-backup and not really suitable for off-grid use. Some people use them for off-grid power but it's not ideal and their engines don't usually last more than about 2,000 hours. And you'll have problems with it starting at 1,000 hours.
So, in theory the Guardian is harder to convert than just wiring up a regular old key start generator. But it's easier to wire in to the system and configure at the system level because it only takes two wires to control it.
I'm going to say it's six of one and half dozen of another as far as wiring it up.
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Chris -
Re: Demonstration of Generator Support
ok thanks if i get into problems connecting can i pm for help
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