Demonstration of Generator Support

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  • Blackcherry04
    Blackcherry04 Solar Expert Posts: 2,490 ✭✭✭
    #212
    Re: Demonstration of Generator Support

    I have big box of Venturi's ( Air Amplifiers ) that would work with water that I use to use for Anesthesia Ventilators for large Animals ( horses and above ) that would work perfect for making some. Anyone game PM me, you don't have to make anything, just hook up a air hose and a discharge pipe. They have adjustable venturi's where you could set them to some fixed PSI level before dropping them into the well. I used them at 55 psi to control the cfm consumption.

    I am sure at some depth you'd get a tumbling effect on the water. The Amish design probably is doing batch lifts that negates it some.

    I am going to have to give anyone wanting one a big opp's, I went out to the shop and the box is gone. There is a box of small ones that would work on maybe a 3/4 pipe or so made of delrin.The ones I was thinking of were aluminum, the delrin might be better in water.
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  • islandboy43444
    islandboy43444 Solar Expert Posts: 45 ✭
    #213
    Re: Demonstration of Generator Support

    hi i have a xw6048 and 4500kw generator and any time i try to charge 8 230ah 6volt batteries with generator it gets a high current of ove 53amps on the display of the xw6048 and the xw6048 shuts down,what am i not doin rite ???
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  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,631 admin
    #214
    Re: Demonstration of Generator Support

    Can you measure the battery bank voltage? That is a ~23% rate of charge--Which is pretty high rate for a flooded cell battery bank.

    I believe the XW will throw a fault at 72 volts--Which I would never expect the XW inverter to ever reach when charging from the genset.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
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  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    #215
    Re: Demonstration of Generator Support

    Like all inverter-chargers the XW has programmable limits for generator input and charger output. The AC IN (usually on AC2) limit should be set not to exceed the generator's maximum (4500 Watts / 240 VAC = 18 Amps - and it needs to be a 240 VAC gen). Likewise the charge rate needs to be set not to exceed the recommended maximum for the batteries. In this case you should probably limit that to about 30 Amps. I think the XW uses a "percentage of maximum" setting for this, where it's maximum output is 100 Amps and you need to set this figure to 30%.

    I'm sure the guys who use the XW's can clarify this.
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  • islandboy43444
    islandboy43444 Solar Expert Posts: 45 ✭
    #216
    Re: Demonstration of Generator Support

    what is the bank sizing and gen settings for the outback 8048 using 230 ah 6v flooded batteries for two days run time.
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  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    #217
    Re: Demonstration of Generator Support
    islandboy43444 wrote: »
    what is the bank sizing and gen settings for the outback 8048 using 230 ah 6v flooded batteries for two days run time.

    :confused: I can't say I understand that question.
    By "Outback 8048" you mean the Radian? (8 kW 48 VDC).
    230 Amp hours 6 Volt batteries would require eight to operate it, and the total capacity would be roughly 5.5 kW hours. "Days run time" doesn't really fit because there's no rate of use. If you want to supply the full 8 kW for two days straight you would need an utterly massive battery bank.

    I think the question needs rephrasing.
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  • ChrisOlson
    ChrisOlson Banned Posts: 1,807 ✭✭
    #218
    Re: Demonstration of Generator Support
    Cariboocoot wrote: »
    If you want to supply the full 8 kW for two days straight you would need an utterly massive battery bank.

    According to some rough math, that would require 8,000 amp-hours at 48V nominal, or a 16,000ah bank cycled to 50%. That's like 69 strings of 232ah golf cart batteries - or 552 batteries - to run a GS8048 at full load for two days. :blush:

    If you built the bank from 1,400ah forklift batteries and cycled them to 80% DoD it would still take seven 1.5 ton batteries to accomplish such a feat.

    I don't know too many people that got a big enough battery bank to run a GS8048 at full load for even two hours, much less two days :confused:
    --
    Chris
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  • islandboy43444
    islandboy43444 Solar Expert Posts: 45 ✭
    #219
    Re: Demonstration of Generator Support

    Wow, thanks i want to run two 5ton freezers and a ice machine on 3 radian 8048 with generator support i am goin to use 96 sun 285 watt panels and 128 golf cart batteries with a 14k back up generator( lp guardian)
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  • ChrisOlson
    ChrisOlson Banned Posts: 1,807 ✭✭
    #220
    Re: Demonstration of Generator Support

    I would suggest not using that many golf cart batteries. Perhaps look into getting a forklift battery (or two or three) instead.
    --
    Chris
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  • islandboy43444
    islandboy43444 Solar Expert Posts: 45 ✭
    #221
    Re: Demonstration of Generator Support

    K whats a good brand
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  • stephendv
    stephendv Solar Expert Posts: 1,571 ✭✭
    #222
    Re: Demonstration of Generator Support

    For that kind of size, it would be ideal to use the correctly sized 2V cells in series and avoid parallel connections all together, e.g.:

    http://www.exide.com/us/en/product-solutions/network-power/product/gnb-flooded-classic-h1t.aspx
    or
    http://proto.hupsolarone.com/?page_id=108
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  • Blackcherry04
    Blackcherry04 Solar Expert Posts: 2,490 ✭✭✭
    #223
    Re: Demonstration of Generator Support

    I finally got the Outback GFX 1312 hooked up today so I could take advantage of the Generator Support. I'v got it on a 10 battery bank of GC-2's and being powered by a Honda EU 2000. I have to say it's really impressive at what the combination can do. I have a TV, Satellite Box, A 5000 btu A/C and two small fans. I set the breaker size to 12 Amps and the max charge to 11 amps. That gives the Generator a little break from the higher RPM's and keep it on ECO throttle. @ 12 amps ( 1.2 kw )it's running the loads and charging and only using Gen Support when the A/C compressor and the Refrigerator kicks on and off. Generally it's been at about 60 % loads and 40 % charging all day. I have to say, I searched a long time for a system that would do what I wanted and this combination seems to do it.

    While most small systems wouldn't have 1100 amp hr's of batteries I installed this to supplement the big inverter. It would be great with just a couple GC-2's batteries. It just gives you so much more than just running a generator or the Inverter alone. It's not cheap, but it beats a 20 kw generator @ $10.80 a hour on fuel.
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  • ChrisOlson
    ChrisOlson Banned Posts: 1,807 ✭✭
    #224
    Re: Demonstration of Generator Support
    Blackcherry04 wrote: »
    It's not cheap, but it beats a 20 kw generator @ $10.80 a hour on fuel.

    Congrats on being the second person I know that has set up a working off-grid gen support system with a small generator! It sounds like you have discovered just what I did - size the generator to carry the normal loads, not the peak loads. And use both the inverter and generator together to run the peak load stuff.

    The way I look at it, no, it's not cheap. But it's why we put in our latest Robin diesel generator. It's little, and most people would laugh at it for any decent size off-grid system. But, by gully, the little thing lets us run our new central AC during the hot, muggy dead still nights, where just on gen power the compressor would kill the little Robin with its starting amps. But hooked to the inverter with gen support it's a piece of cake.

    Being comfortable sleeping at night, and having a nice cool, low-humidty house when we get up in the morning, is worth every penny. And basically, that's what it's costing is pennies to run it. Which is way cheaper than dollars to cycle batteries down to 50% every night when the AC unit alone can use 50% of our battery capacity in a matter of only 10.5 hours.

    The setup you have there would be perfect for a weekend off-grid cabin. And for RV's too.
    --
    Chris
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  • Blackcherry04
    Blackcherry04 Solar Expert Posts: 2,490 ✭✭✭
    #225
    Re: Demonstration of Generator Support
    ChrisOlson wrote: »
    Congrats on being the second person I know that has set up a working off-grid gen support system with a small generator! It sounds like you have discovered just what I did - size the generator to carry the normal loads, not the peak loads. And use both the inverter and generator together to run the peak load stuff.

    The way I look at it, no, it's not cheap. But it's why we put in our latest Robin diesel generator. It's little, and most people would laugh at it for any decent size off-grid system. But, by gully, the little thing lets us run our new central AC during the hot, muggy dead still nights, where just on gen power the compressor would kill the little Robin with its starting amps. But hooked to the inverter with gen support it's a piece of cake.

    Being comfortable sleeping at night, and having a nice cool, low-humidty house when we get up in the morning, is worth every penny. And basically, that's what it's costing is pennies to run it. Which is way cheaper than dollars to cycle batteries down to 50% every night when the AC unit alone can use 50% of our battery capacity in a matter of only 10.5 hours.

    The setup you have there would be perfect for a weekend off-grid cabin. And for RV's too.
    --
    Chris
    While it's on a boat, my Cabins main floor is 936 sq ft. The batteries are floating all day and the A/C has kept the the back rooms at 75 deg and the main salon at 79 or so, that's feat in it's own, it's hard to cool a boat because they are so long and you get a lot of temperature variation anyway. Plus I'v had the TV and Frig both on it. The main Inverter didn't have much on it, maybe 3-7 amps DC of background stuff but the charger ( 70 amp ) was well to keep up with it.

    The GFX series is 12, 24 or 48 V versions , @ $950.00 + A Mate @ $150.00, I'll save that much in fuel this summer and be living large.

    I am going to start a water muffler for it this week and a jacket and see how quiet I can get it. I don't know about the cooling. may not be able to help that much, but every bit helps.
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  • NorthGuy
    NorthGuy Solar Expert Posts: 1,913 ✭✭
    #226
    Re: Demonstration of Generator Support
    ChrisOlson wrote: »
    Being comfortable sleeping at night, and having a nice cool, low-humidty house when we get up in the morning, is worth every penny. And basically, that's what it's costing is pennies to run it. Which is way cheaper than dollars to cycle batteries down to 50% every night when the AC unit alone can use 50% of our battery capacity in a matter of only 10.5 hours.

    It costs pennies to run the generator for 10.5 hours? Perhaps 3000 of them :D
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  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,631 admin
    #227
    Re: Demonstration of Generator Support

    Actually, it may be down towards 100 or even 50 pennies an hour (1 quart an hour for non-road tax on Chris' Robin diesel?).

    $0.50 to $1.00 per hour for generator support on the XW or Outback inverter vs $10 per hour (~several gallons per hour of gasoline or diesel) on a 20 kW genset.... That is a pretty significant savings in fuel.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
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  • ChrisOlson
    ChrisOlson Banned Posts: 1,807 ✭✭
    #228
    Re: Demonstration of Generator Support
    BB. wrote: »
    Actually, it may be down towards 100 or even 50 pennies an hour (1 quart an hour for non-road tax on Chris' Robin diesel?).

    I get off-road #2 premium (Cenex Ruby Fieldmaster, cetane #48 ) for $3.03/gallon right now. We ran the Robin all night last night, from sundown to sunup - about 8 hours - on 1.6 gallons. The AC unit pulls 9.6 amps @ 240 volt with the compressor running, and starting amps for the compressor is about 30 amps. So the Robin is only running at about 2/3's load for just the AC, but it does need the inverter to help it to start the compressor. When we got up this morning the batteries were at 50.8V. I shut the Robin down and the solar and wind ran the AC unit, plus heated water and other normal loads, and floated the batteries all day - they didn't need to be rebulked/absorbed today.

    The Robin is running all night tonight too because the outside air is so thick you cut it with a knife and we want to keep the house nice and comfy. So, the way I look at it - who else can run a 2-ton central AC unit, plus their whole house for a whole day on less than $5 bucks out-of-pocket expense? You can't even do that on grid power.
    --
    Chris
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  • Panamretiree
    Panamretiree Solar Expert Posts: 278 ✭✭
    #229
    Re: Demonstration of Generator Support

    I have been reading up on Generator and Grid Support in the XW manuals and it makes sense to size everything to get the best bang for your dollar, and to keep the expense down as well, a well balanced system so to speak as has been stated on the various threads.

    NG helped me out in this respect by proposing that I could use a generator during our split AC operation for up to 4hrs a night with a generator sized at about 5kW and get some supplemental charging as well. As you say Chris, no way we could afford to operate split AC units on battery alone.

    I have mentioned on my thread that I have been trying to source generators here in Panama, no joy regarding Honda and Subaru Robin to date; however, I have found a Hyundai DHY6000SE diesel generator at a local shop. Looked for info on it on the web and have read the operation maul that I found. The ones on-line are mostly in the UK, but the one here should be for the US power system and be 240VAC, will know more tomorrow when I go back for a second look see.

    The specs aren't too bad, AVR, 0.75 to 2 litres an hour depending on load, can be connected for auto start, direct fuel injection, on sale at $1500.00 down from $2K (gas generators are expensive here as well). It's a bit larger than I anticipated, but depending on what site you visit, continuous power is 4kW to 5kW and this fits what NG was telling me as well. Don't know about the surge capacity, but still looking.

    I'm also thinking that one could set up the generator/grid support settings to facilitate the fuel consumption in the 1 litre range, a slight twist on Blackcherry's setup. Since this unit can be auto start, doesn't get too cold down here, it could do dual duty until I source out another generator (if needed). The Mrs is also on page with this as a purchase if the information I see is good. She also likes the idea that maybe we only need one generator. Explained the concept of two generators with generator and grid support to her today, and she now understands the benefits of possibly having two. My task is to find a second one that is reasonable in price down here, a used one is not an option.

    Cheers

    Ernest
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  • Blackcherry04
    Blackcherry04 Solar Expert Posts: 2,490 ✭✭✭
    #230
    Re: Demonstration of Generator Support

    The biggest savings I did this year was buying these Phillips LED 8 watt ( 60 w eq. ) bulbs ( the latest they have out). I exchanged 1200 watts of 50 Watt down lights. It's a heck of a deal on the latest bulbs, I bought 36 of them, they are 2700 k range just like a regular incandescent bulb.

    http://www.ebay.com/itm/271212067591?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1439.l2649
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  • Panamretiree
    Panamretiree Solar Expert Posts: 278 ✭✭
    #231
    Re: Demonstration of Generator Support
    ChrisOlson wrote: »
    I get off-road #2 premium (Cenex Ruby Fieldmaster, cetane #48) for $3.03/gallon right now. We ran the Robin all night last night, from sundown to sunup - about 8 hours - on 1.6 gallons. The AC unit pulls 9.6 amps @ 240 volt with the compressor running, and starting amps for the compressor is about 30 amps. So the Robin is only running at about 2/3's load for just the AC, but it does need the inverter to help it to start the compressor. When we got up this morning the batteries were at 50.8V. I shut the Robin down and the solar and wind ran the AC unit, plus heated water and other normal loads, and floated the batteries all day - they didn't need to be rebulked/absorbed today.

    The Robin is running all night tonight too because the outside air is so thick you cut it with a knife and we want to keep the house nice and comfy. So, the way I look at it - who else can run a 2-ton central AC unit, plus their whole house for a whole day on less than $5 bucks out-of-pocket expense? You can't even do that on grid power.
    --
    Chris

    The people who run their split AC units down here 24/7 and there are lots of them see their hydro bills jump from $50.00 a month with limited use to well over $200.00 a month with AC. Houses generally have 9000 BTU units in the bedrooms and 24000 BTU units in the main living area. Some of these costs are similar to Chris's with one exception, when the power goes out here, no AC. So for Chris - price of gas there is MC - for never being without AC - priceless.

    Cheers

    Ernest
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  • inetdog
    inetdog Solar Expert Posts: 3,123 ✭✭✭✭
    #232
    Re: Demonstration of Generator Support
    Panamretiree wrote: »
    I have mentioned on my thread that I have been trying to source generators here in Panama, no joy regarding Honda and Subaru Robin to date;
    And if you do find a Subaru Robin, if it is new it will not have the simple rugged Robin diesel engine that Chris loves so much. The Haft engine in the current models (at least as sold in North America) does not have nearly as good a reputation for long term "prime mover" use.
    If you can find a used one which really has the Robin engine, jump on it. :-)
    SMA SB 3000, old BP panels.
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  • Panamretiree
    Panamretiree Solar Expert Posts: 278 ✭✭
    #233
    Re: Demonstration of Generator Support
    Blackcherry04 wrote: »
    The biggest savings I did this year was buying these Phillips LED 8 watt ( 60 w eq. ) bulbs ( the latest they have out). I exchanged 1200 watts of 50 Watt down lights. It's a heck of a deal on the latest bulbs, I bought 36 of them, they are 2700 k range just like a regular incandescent bulb.

    http://www.ebay.com/itm/271212067591?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1439.l2649

    Bought a few of these LED lights and did tests on them. Just about every one of them used 1W higher than that stated on the package, so 8W will be 9W. Everything made a difference in my load analysis especially since lighting is a huge issue for us down here. When our house is finally done and we are in, I'm looking forward to doing the mix and match to get the best lighting profile for the house - using pot lights all round and throughout. You may also want to look at the LED bulbs with the GU10 connectors. You can get the adapters on line that allows you to use standard sockets.

    Cheers

    Ernest
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  • Panamretiree
    Panamretiree Solar Expert Posts: 278 ✭✭
    #234
    Re: Demonstration of Generator Support
    inetdog wrote: »
    And if you do find a Subaru Robin, if it is new it will not have the simple rugged Robin diesel engine that Chris loves so much. The Haft engine in the current models (at least as sold in North America) does not have nearly as good a reputation for long term "prime mover" use.
    If you can find a used one which really has the Robin engine, jump on it. :-)

    Used equipment down here is generally road hard and put out wet so to speak, but yes, I would like that very much, if not for any other reason than I need some toys - sold mine before we moved down here.

    Cheers

    Ernest
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  • mtdoc
    mtdoc Solar Expert Posts: 600 ✭✭
    #235
    Re: Demonstration of Generator Support

    Seeing these posts makes me appreciate living somewhere where AC is never needed!
    Blackcherry04 wrote: »
    While it's on a boat, my Cabins main floor is 936 sq ft. The batteries are floating all day and the A/C has kept the the back rooms at 75 deg and the main salon at 79 or so, that's feat in it's own, it's hard to cool a boat because they are so long and you get a lot of temperature variation anyway. Plus I'v had the TV and Frig both on it. The main Inverter didn't have much on it, maybe 3-7 amps DC of background stuff but the charger ( 70 amp ) was well to keep up with it.

    The GFX series is 12, 24 or 48 V versions , @ $950.00 + A Mate @ $150.00, I'll save that much in fuel this summer and be living large.

    That's a good sized boat Blackcherry!

    Perfect demonstration of why I think many people oversize their systems. You're running a full home including AC using a very modestly sized inverter and generator!

    You've given me a great thought. My detached garage/small shop currently has no back up power. The only critical load there is a small chest freezer which gets an extension cord run to it from the main house if the grid is down and I use a genny for the shop tools if needed. I plan to put up another array to power this garage and considered using my back up GVFX 3648 to power it but your post has made me realize I could get a GFX inverter and do grid tie with battery back up with it - while using one of my eu2000is with it if needed when the grid is out to power even my highest power shop loads.
    Cool! :cool:
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  • ChrisOlson
    ChrisOlson Banned Posts: 1,807 ✭✭
    #236
    Re: Demonstration of Generator Support
    inetdog wrote: »
    If you can find a used one which really has the Robin engine, jump on it. :-)

    The Robin DY27 was originally called the Wisconsin-Robin WRD1-270, with the engines built by Fuji Heavy Industries in Japan and marketed by Wisconsin Engines in Waukesha, Wisconsin. There was thousands of them built for the US military for small 3 kW diesel gensets. They earned such a reputation of ruggedness in military duty that used ones typically sell for more than a new Honda. They're still in duty in the US Army and US Marines and it's easier to find one if you keep track of these government liquidation deals like this:
    http://www.govliquidation.com/auction/view?auctionId=5804668

    Finding the civilian version of it is virtually a once-in-a-lifetime miracle.
    --
    Chris
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  • Blackcherry04
    Blackcherry04 Solar Expert Posts: 2,490 ✭✭✭
    #237
    Re: Demonstration of Generator Support

    I am really Impressed with the setup. I tried to do it with stand alone chargers and I bought a small Magnum Inverter, The magnum just didn't have to control the Outback does. It's kind of rampy when the charger kick's in or a big load. It gives the Honda time to ramp up it's throttle in the ECO mode. It's noticeable when the compressor comes on , but nothing that they can't handle. The magnum would just overspeed it and create a fault, then you'd have to shut every thing down and start over. I'v never been able to stay in float before, usually I I just charge back to 80 % or so, so I am in new territory. Now as soon as I turn any load on I can hear the generator compensate for it.

    Yeah it is a big boat 18' x 78' floating house, it has everything you'd have at home and more. I also use it as a floating work shop, It'll have customers drop by over the weekend. I may end up selling my batteries before I head back in, I'v done it before, my wife says it's like being married to a plumber....lol.
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  • ChrisOlson
    ChrisOlson Banned Posts: 1,807 ✭✭
    #238
    Re: Demonstration of Generator Support
    Blackcherry04 wrote: »
    I am really Impressed with the setup. I tried to do it with stand alone chargers and I bought a small Magnum Inverter, The magnum just didn't have to control the Outback does. It's kind of rampy when the charger kick's in or a big load.

    Magnum Energy has released their new MSH4024RE with generator support in it. I wonder how it works?
    http://www.magnumenergy.com/Products/MSH-REseries.htm

    One of our neighbors a trek thru the woods here bought a 4448PAE and they don't like it for the same reasons you mentioned. Just running the washing machine turns their house into a disco.
    --
    Chris
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  • mtdoc
    mtdoc Solar Expert Posts: 600 ✭✭
    #239
    Re: Demonstration of Generator Support
    Blackcherry04 wrote: »

    Yeah it is a big boat 18' x 78' floating house, it has everything you'd have at home and more.

    I assume you're on a Lake - which one? My cousin is part owner of 2 large house boats on Lake Powell. He's an electrician by trade and maintains them both. BIg Magnum inverter based system with big genny. No solar panels.:cry:

    I visited last May. Nice boat - like you say - everything and more...

    Attachment not found.
    Attachment not found.
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  • Blackcherry04
    Blackcherry04 Solar Expert Posts: 2,490 ✭✭✭
    #240
    Re: Demonstration of Generator Support
    ChrisOlson wrote: »
    Magnum Energy has released their new MSH4024RE with generator support in it. I wonder how it works?
    http://www.magnumenergy.com/Products/MSH-REseries.htm

    One of our neighbors a trek thru the woods here bought a 4448PAE and they don't like it for the same reasons you mentioned. Just running the washing machine turns their house into a disco.
    --
    Chris
    I'd love to test one, but I am out of testing money this year. I'll be at the Inverter SVC this week, I'll see if they have one in yet. May be they'll let me try one. I usually 3-4 spares on hand and do a direct exchange on one that's out. It only takes me 15 minutes to change one out. On the water service with a smile. Nothing like a guy and his family that comes down for the weekend and their Inverter is out and nothing works. I am not a price gouger, but convenience does come at a price. The only guy that they like more than me is my buddy the toilet guy, he stays busier than I do, but it's a crappy job, but someone has to do it. They call him the " Head Dr. "
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  • Blackcherry04
    Blackcherry04 Solar Expert Posts: 2,490 ✭✭✭
    #241
    Re: Demonstration of Generator Support
    mtdoc wrote: »
    I assume you're on a Lake - which one? My cousin is part owner of 2 large house boats on Lake Powell. He's an electrician by trade and maintains them both. BIg Magnum inverter based system with big genny. No solar panels.:cry:

    I visited last May. Nice boat - like you say - everything and more...

    Attachment not found.
    Attachment not found.
    I am in Kentucky , Barren River Lake, about 70 north of Nashville, TN. That's is kind of what I have, I once had the biggest boat on the lake, no more. They can't move them if they get much bigger, they will figure away cut them in half and weld them when they arrive. They just keep getting bigger and bigger. 22 X 110 is the biggest now I know of. Mine is a 1996 called " This is It " it means there never be another. Mine is a single story, I watched them put a new one together with a crane this week, big double decker, it came on two huge trailers. They set the hull and first story in the water and lift the second story on top of it. They 'll be 30 ft in the air on roof of the second story, I hope it doesn't rock or a big wind doesn't blow it over. As long as it can move it won't turn over, it might throw you off the top though....
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