Demonstration of Generator Support

ChrisOlson

Re: Demonstration of Generator Support

islandboy43444 wrote: »

ok thanks if i get into problems connecting can i pm for help

Absolutely. I have the information here for you on how to convert your Generac to two-wire if you wish. I can also (probably) walk you thru how to wire your smaller electric start generator for auto-start with the XW-AGS.
--
Chris

islandboy43444

Re: Demonstration of Generator Support

thats awesome how can i get that info, i also have another issue thats got me puzzled, I have 15 suntech 285 watt panels tied together in strings on the of 3 on one snieder c40 and two strings on another with a xw6048 and 8 225ah 6volt batteries for staters and it keeps poppin my 30amp fuses any idea whats wrong

Cariboocoot

Re: Demonstration of Generator Support

islandboy43444 wrote: »

thats awesome how can i get that info, i also have another issue thats got me puzzled, I have 15 suntech 285 watt panels tied together in strings on the of 3 on one snieder c40 and two strings on another with a xw6048 and 8 225ah 6volt batteries for staters and it keeps poppin my 30amp fuses any idea whats wrong

Let's just check to make sure this is right.
You have five strings in parallel. Each string is three panels in series. Right?
Suntech 285 Watt panels Vmp 35.4 Imp 8.04 right?
So the array would be Vmp (35.4 * 3) 106.2 Imp (8.04 * 5) 40.2 - and you wonder why it's popping 30 Amp fuses?

BTW a C40 controller being a PWM type is wasting a lot of power from that array. Approximately (106 - 70 * 8 * 5) 1440 Watts worth.

I must have misunderstood your specifications.

islandboy43444

Re: Demonstration of Generator Support

yes i have 2 c40s can i replace them with 2 flexmax 80s

Cariboocoot

Re: Demonstration of Generator Support

Fifteen 285 Watt panels in total? Whole array of 4275 Watts on a 48 Volt system? You could replace the two C40's with on FM80 or MidNite Classic and have more power available. Like about 68 Amps of charge current.

You have eight 225 Amp hour 6 Volt batteries for 225 Amp hours @ 48 Volts. Two things: That much battery does not need 68 Amps of current or even 40 or even 30 for that matter. It is also about 1/3 as much battery capacity as the XW 6048 would like to have.

Your system seems to be seriously out of balance in more than one way.

islandboy43444

Re: Demonstration of Generator Support

ok thanks is there any thing i can do at present to balance it and make it more efficient until i replace the c40s and add 16 batteries

Cariboocoot

Re: Demonstration of Generator Support

islandboy43444 wrote: »

ok thanks is there any thing i can do at present to balance it and make it more efficient until i replace the c40s and add 16 batteries

Well for a 48 Volt system you only need two panels in series per string: 70.8 Vmp. And for 225 Amp hours of battery you only need 22 Amps peak current so four strings of two panels would give you an array of 70.8 Vmp & 24 Imp which would be enough for those batteries and would not blow 30 Amp fuses. Sounds silly, but there you are: disconnect some panels.

If you can put them over to the other controller all the better, as it would enable better load handling (if this is needed). Ideally this would be 16 panels (eight on each controller) but since you have only fifteen see if you can't get eight on one and six on the other.

This won't do anything for the XW's desire for greater filtering from the batteries, but it should even a few things up.

The only thing I haven't considered here which may be an issue is Voltage drop over wiring between array and controller(s). Hopefully this is not going to be a problem (fairly short distances so the extra 35 Volts is not required).

islandboy43444

Re: Demonstration of Generator Support

OK thanks alot i will make the changes and let you know

Blackcherry04

Re: Demonstration of Generator Support

I am re-posting this, it kind of got lost in a thread that took off in another direction.

Small scale it is hard to get everything you do in large scale, so you have to adapt. The Outback GFX Inverter /Charger is great to team with a EU 2000 in 12 v, 24 or 48 V. I get about 7 + hrs to a Gallon and have charging, pass through and generator support. If you set the generator input AC amps to 5-6 amps and turn the ECO throttle on. It'll sit there and run all day without lugging at idle. The Outback will pick up all the surges with Generator Support. If you run a 5000 btu A/C it'll take all the starting surges of the compressor, off cycle it then returns back to full charging and pass through. The biggest issues I use to have is small appliances ( 1500 W range, coffee pot, microwave, Induction cooktop, toaster ), now Generator support picks them right up.

If you want full power from the EU 2000, you turn the ECO off and switch to Grid Input @ 12-13 amps input on the Outback and you still have Generator support, pass through and charging but you use more fuel. Then you get about 3 hrs to a gallon, but more power.

Grid and Gen is 2 different amp settings incoming that are easy to switch back and forth to with one button push and use the same Generator input, with two different amperage levels..

AGS would be nice and can be had if your willing to spend the $$$. I find it easy enough to get around it.

The Outback GFX is about $1000 + a Mate in 12 v, 24v or 48v. I set it up with plugs so I could move it around as necessary. I have tried this many times before, but the missing piece was Generator Support on a small Inverter and generator, the GFX has that.

It's has to be seamless transition to get the Honda to stay within the incoming current limits, the GFX has the ability to do that. Most Inverters just do not have the capability to switch back and forth and keep all the voltages stable enough for it all to work.

islandboy43444

Re: Demonstration of Generator Support

Hi I have a question about the xw 6048 when you enable the onboard charger function does that work from the panels as well or only if you a generator connected on ac2 or if your system is grid tied , seems like a dumb question but need to find out.

ChrisOlson

Re: Demonstration of Generator Support

islandboy43444 wrote: »

Hi I have a question about the xw 6048 when you enable the onboard charger function does that work from the panels as well or only if you a generator connected on ac2 or if your system is grid tied , seems like a dumb question but need to find out.

The XW inverter can be AC coupled and use the AC output being back-fed to charge batteries from a synchronized AC power source. But not on grid power. That is used for standalone mini-grids where a GT inverter or diesel generator will backfeed the XW and charge batteries with it.

For the most part in normal installations, enabling the charger needs input on either AC1 or AC2 while using the inverter's internal transfer switches to handle passthru to loads on the AC Out.
--
Chris

islandboy43444

Re: Demonstration of Generator Support

Can a generac 13k gen that doesnt have have the nexus contoller work with the xw ags module

islandboy43444

Re: Demonstration of Generator Support

Hi,
what the correct charger settings for 24 225ah batteries in banks of 8,2 xantrax c40 charge controllers,15 285watt panels,12 80watt 12 panels, a xantex 6048 and 4400watt gen for charging ? and is the anything else i can add to this system to get the maximum out of it .

Cariboocoot

Re: Demonstration of Generator Support

You've got three parallel strings @ 225 Amp hours each: 675 Amp hours @ 48 Volts.
Without actual battery maker's specs you have to go with generic answers.
You want your maximum charging current to be 68 to 100 Amps. This would include all charge sources that are operating at once.
Bulk/Absorb Voltage would be 58-60. Start at the low end and push up as needed.
Absorb time will depend on how deeply they are discharged. Some experimenting will be needed. Check the SG during charging and watch the current.

keyturbocars

Re: Demonstration of Generator Support

I was experimenting with Gen Support the other day with a new (actually quite old, but new to me) Yanmar YDG 3700 diesel generator. It is rated for 3.5kW continuous output. I set the Gen Support to 10A and did some testing with my XW6048. I flipped on a big load that would require the XW to kick in and support the generator. With the GenSup set to only 10A (2400W), I figured the generator would not be overburdened at all. Anyway, when I kicked in the water heater (4.5kW), the generator bogged down and started to die until the XW6048 dumped it because the RPM and Hz were dropping fast. I didn't understand why the generator would bog down when it only was supposed to take 10A (2.4kW) before the XW was supposed to kick in and assist. I changed the Gen Support setting to 5A and tried it again. One again, the same thing happened. The generator bogged and RPMs dropped until the XW dumped the AC2 Gen input and took the entire load itself.

At first, I thought maybe the generator was having fuel issues that reduced its power output, since it was new to me and I didn't know if there were problems. I hooked up at 3.5kW load directly to the generator and it took and maintained it just fine. So, the generator is definitely able to handle its rated load. So, I figured that there must be something wrong with the XW6048 or the way I set it.

The only 2 settings that I can see to set on the XW6048 are: 1) Gen Support Enabled and 2) Amp setting. Am I missing something? Any ideas why Gen Support would not work properly?

mike95490

Re: Demonstration of Generator Support

There are 3 settings that interact with each other:
Gen support amps
Battery size and % charging amps
AC2 input breaker size.
And another thing that causes issues is the loading of each phase of the AC.

I've not got my new genset wired up yet, but I do want to test out the Gen support.
I plan to try for a 3Kw genset :
Gen support amps 12
Battery size and % charging amps 500ah 6%
AC2 input breaker size. 20a (I'm not gutsy enough to start at 60A)
I think internally, these are each de-rated another 20% lower.

I think this would let me run my base loads, charge the batteries, and assist the generator if loads get above it's limit.

Correspondence about this with Chris in the past had this to me: (I'd been using a 120V, 2Kw inverter gen wired to a autotransformer to bump it up to 240VAC) [paraphrased]

Set AC2 breaker size up to the max (I use 60 amps even for our little RGD3300). Set the acceptable voltage and frequency to the lowest limits (I think this is around 80 VAC and 45 Hz, but I'd have to look).
Set the Gen Support to Enabled and the amps to the desired load on the generator.
For a small generator <5kW set the Gen Support Plus to Enabled (especially if there is no balancing transformer in the system).

The XW is VERY fast in how it reacts to out-of-spec power output from the genset - it will react and prevent out-of-spec power from "hitting" the load within ~17-19 ms.

What happens is that when the load exceeds the Gen Support setting the XW will surge load the generator for the first second to 150% of the Gen Support amps setting. Most generators can handle this quite easily, although there will be considerable drop in the voltage, but not so much on freq. The XW has to do this because it is in pass-thru to loads with (usually) the charger active. It has to switch from charging to inverting as the load exceeds the Gen Supp Amps setting.

During the second or so that it takes to evaluate whether the surge was from something short and simple like a 'fridge compressor starting, or an an actual generator overload condition, the voltage from the generator will drop below the acceptable limit and then recover. It is so fast that you can only capture it with a Fluke meter that has the capture feature enabled on it. But the XW is faster so it disconnects the genset because the voltage dropped out of spec during the initial surge load. This is because the rotor in the genset is operating at a particular flux level for the present load, the surge hits and the AVR can't react fast enough to increase the field current to the rotor to increase the flux in the core.

Gen Support on split-phase power is a lot more tricky than with 120V single phase. It will use the Gen Support amps setting based on the highest loaded leg with split-phase. So if someone is setting up a system to use Gen Support on a regular basis with a small generator I would highly recommend considering a balancing transformer for the inverter and generator to get peak performance from it. The nature of split-phase power is such that is is possible to leg overload a genset and force Gen Support when the generator itself is only really 50%, or slightly better, loaded. Inverters can handle this with no problem - generators can't. So the transformer makes a huge difference for both.

Chris has also been tweaking the generator AVR to keep it closer to acceptable range. Hope this helps.

Mike
3 days & 2" of rain in forecast - guess getting the genset wired in just became a high priority.

Blackcherry04

Re: Demonstration of Generator Support

I'd try to raise the amp setting of the generator support amps. I know it sounds counter intuitive to do it, but on my Outback and Honda EU 2000, when I set it to low, the inverter would take the load, instead of assisting with support. Generator support has some holes in the way it works, not ready for prime time yet. I'v noticed that a resistive load is the easiest for it, a compressor is much harder for the transition to support. In the end that size load may be to much for it to over come. Did the generator ever get re-qualified ??

I think I know how you expect it to react to a load, but what did the programmer of the algorithm think in the way it reacts ?? Is the Inverter saying, " This load is way to big for his 10 amp generator " I'll take it, or is something it can't do. In the Outback there many more user adjustable perimeters in cycles, and Voltage and HZ to play with until you find what works best, Xantrex, not so many. I'd also turn the charger off, so thats one issue it doesn't have to deal with. The reason is that it will try to reduce the chargers output first, How many steps does that take ??

I am adding one other tidbit that I don't see in the XW 6048 manual. I have a couple new SW3012's and it clearly states that it takes 1-2 seconds for Generator support to engage. To me thats not acceptable to what I want in Generator Support. It means that the Generator is going to drop and then be picked back up with all big loads. What I see happen is the Generator is picked back up and the charger will re-engage and what you really have is Battery Support and the Inverter is carrying the load.
.

keyturbocars

Re: Demonstration of Generator Support

Thanks for the helpful responses Mike and Blackcherry04. Thanks also Mike for posting ChrisOlson's past response. Chris sure is a wealth of experience and knowledge, and it's a real shame what happened. This forum has suffered a big loss as a result of it. Anyway, on my XW6048 I should play around with some of those other settings like AC2 Breaker Size and see if that has an effect. In the past, I was trying GenSupport with my bigger 6kW Onan 6DJE generator, and it also dropped GEN2 input and the XW took all the loads and then the XW tried to requalify the generator and it was able to take over with the DJE generator on the 2nd attempt. That testing was a little different though, because I was experimenting with having my heat pump start up with Gen Support and my Onan DJE generator. The heat pump has a very large initial surge load, and on initial start up of the heat pump the XW would dump the Onan generator and just start the heat pump on its own and then requalify the DJE generator and let it take the load since the running amps of the heat pump is relatively low compared to start up surge.

With my smaller Yanmar YDG3700 generator, I was testing with a purely resistive load with my hot water heater. The XW would drop the AC2 and try to requalify the Yanmar generator input but the same thing would happen... the Yanmar generator would bog severely and the XW would drop the AC2 input again. After repeating this cycle 2 times, I didn't let it continue on like this, so I just disabled Gen Support and let the XW take all the loads and then shut down the water heater. From what I can observe with my XW6048, it's almost like Xantrex did not program Gen Support properly in the firmware. My particular XW has a build date of October 20, 2010, and I wonder if the firmware is outdated and Gen Support is not programmed properly. From what I've read, Xantrex sort of dropped the ball at the end of the XW6048's development and they didn't really tie off all the loose ends in the programming. For most people that just use the basic functions, it works great. When trying to use some of the more advanced features like Gen Support, the firmware seems to be lacking. I forgot to mention that I had the charger disabled during my testing.

Blackcherry04

Re: Demonstration of Generator Support

I don't know if you ever heard of a Dometic Smart Start. It replaces the start capacitor and claims to have a 65 % starting load reduction on the A/C demand on start. They are pricey $400, if you check them out they would be a way to have big A/C. They make 3 sizes up to 5 ton unit. Google it and dig around in the Marine market, this not smoke and mirrors.

NorthGuy

Re: Demonstration of Generator Support

When you test with big loads, you combine a lot of issues together - how generator respons, does XW has time to pick up the load etc.

I would try to increase the load slowly and gradually. If you have gen support set at 5A (1.2kW), then see what happens when the combined load gets bigger, when it goes to 6A, then 7A. Does the inverter start supporting the generator keeping generator's load under 5A?

Blackcherry04

Re: Demonstration of Generator Support

If I understand it correctly at 80% of the support amps it will start cutting the charger back, at that point the breaker on the generator would be 80% loaded. So if the generator bogs, it might not be allowing it time to recover before it takes the load. This why I said to see if a higher setting works better. Like North said, lot's trying to balance out.

Nothing I post may apply since mine is such small scale.

keyturbocars

Re: Demonstration of Generator Support

Blackcherry04 wrote: »

I don't know if you ever heard of a Dometic Smart Start. It replaces the start capacitor and claims to have a 65 % starting load reduction on the A/C demand on start. They are pricey $400, if you check them out they would be a way to have big A/C. They make 3 sizes up to 5 ton unit. Google it and dig around in the Marine market, this not smoke and mirrors.

Thanks for the lead, Blackcherry04. This is very interesting. I do have a hard start (soft start) capacitor kit on my heat pump already, but I see that this is something that is different. I just spent a while reading about the SmartStart. It looks very interesting. I wish they priced it a little more reasonably, but I understand that they have a corner on the market with their patented technology and they have done all the research and development.

Thanks for all the ideas, guys. Since I'm normally on grid, I need to get things set up to test this again in an off grid situation. Next time that I do, I plan to experiment more with those settings. I still wish that Xantrex did a little better job in developing the firmware for the XW6048. A competent person should be able to make settings that are intuitive and have things work as expected.

Blackcherry04

Re: Demonstration of Generator Support

keyturbocars wrote: »

Thanks for the lead, Blackcherry04. This is very interesting. I do have a hard start (soft start) capacitor kit on my heat pump already, but I see that this is something that is different. I just spent a while reading about the SmartStart. It looks very interesting. I wish they priced it a little more reasonably, but I understand that they have a corner on the market with their patented technology and they have done all the research and development.

Thanks for all the ideas, guys. Since I'm normally on grid, I need to get things set up to test this again in an off grid situation. Next time that I do, I plan to experiment more with those settings. I still wish that Xantrex did a little better job in developing the firmware for the XW6048. A competent person should be able to make settings that are intuitive and have things work as expected.

I see them on Ebay for around $380. I want the small one for a 5000 btu A/C, but how in the heck do you justify putting a $380 start kit on a $86 A/C. I have tried the capacitor route and about all you gain is 3-4 %. I am going to try one next summer. The A/C I have is built in through the wall and I'd have to remove it and re-wire the whole thing and put the start unit outside. If it works it's worth every penny, it solves a big problem.

CDN_VT

Re: Demonstration of Generator Support

B C 04
Try this instead , drop the 86 unit & sell it off , put the time & 400.00 into a mini split for twice as much

Just another thought !

VT

Blackcherry04

Re: Demonstration of Generator Support

CDN_VT wrote: »

B C 04
Try this instead , drop the 86 unit & sell it off , put the time & 400.00 into a mini split for twice as much

Just another thought !

VT

Thank You for the excellent suggestion. I may go that way if I can't make this work. It's not a Money thing, it's on a boat and I just don't have the room unless I float the condensing unit and pull it around. I have this unit in a cabinet where I can open the door when it's in use.

Blackcherry04

Re: Demonstration of Generator Support

Here is a re-post of the Outback system of Generator Support on a small system. Poster " Mtdoc " uses the same system on the GVFX 3648 with the same results. This shows how to extend the usefulness on the Honda EU 2000 to support loads when teamed up with the right Inverter. There will always be limitations on what you can do with different equipment and loads, but this works with what I have tried. Sometimes just a standalone charger works best, just replacing what you use back into the bank. Sometimes you can use 2 chargers and have one triggered by relay when the extra loading of say a A/C comes on.

I thought I'd post this to show what True Generator Support is to me. It seems to be a loose term as posted back and forth on Internet forums and it allows a lot of misinterpretations.

This is a Outback GFX 1312 using Generator Support with a Honda EU 2000, the ACin amps are set to 10 amps. I am using a 1,400 watt Keurig coffee maker as the load. The Generator Support is Immediate, there is NO delay of 2 seconds, the generator does not drop out and fault. It is a seamless operation. You will see it transition as the load is dropped and it goes to charge for a moment as it raises the Battery voltage back to Float and returns to all pass through. It is fast, it's done in milliseconds, don't blink or you might miss it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jOLAIRe9J3Q
.

mtdoc

Re: Demonstration of Generator Support

Nice Blackcherry!.

FWIW - I have a GVFX 3648 (not 3524).

We've had no extended power outages recently (knock on wood) so my generators have not gotten any work. Your post reminded me that I need to do some annual maintenance on them.

The past 2 winters have been very mild here. Only a few short power outages (no multi-day outages as in the past). Somehow I think this maY change soon. Our utility service is having budget issues and recently had to raise rates. Service crew cuts are also likely - so I have a feeling my generators may be getting a workout again in the near future...

90cummins

Re: Demonstration of Generator Support

I recently installed my Xantrex XW4024 have been testing it's features most recently I tested the Gen Assist feature using my Generac XL4000 which has 240v output.
I also have a Honda EU2000i inverter and read where some have used their EU 2000's with the Gen support feature.
I have been looking for additional information and came across this thread Re: Demonstration of Generator Support and read it from the beginning to end.
Great information in there and from what I've read the XW can accept a 120v only input to the Generator input side?
Am I correct in assuming that??
Does the inverter need to be setup for 120v output only or can I just plug in and power up just L1 or L2 only??
Thanks
90cummins

BB.

Re: Demonstration of Generator Support

Don't know about the "newest" XW's, but the last ones--You changed the jumpers for the 2 transformers (from series LA-N-LB for 120/240 split phase) to the transformers in parallel, and a different 120 VAC only firmware load (from what I remember reading a couple years ago).

I think there is a new XW line (between the changes in ownership/branding/model names, it is difficult to keep track of the progression).

As always, do your own research and/or call Schneider tech support--In times past, the worked better with an initial phone call vs cold email--Again from what I have read here.

-Bill

mike95490

Re: Demonstration of Generator Support

90cummins wrote: »

.....
Great information in there and from what I've read the XW can accept a 120v only input to the Generator input side?...

The XW series comes from the factory, wired for 240VAC (North Am) operation. it can be jumpered around to work 120V only if you wish. Flor a factory configured inverter to qualify AC2 (Gen) input, it needs to be 240V (both L1 & L2)

Note that the XW has 2 different AC inputs, AC1 (Grid) and AC2 (genset) which both have L1 & L2 (240V) inputs.