Trojan Industrial batteries not working

NorthGuy · February 2013

Re: Trojan Industrial batteries not working

ChrisOlson wrote: »

It varies wildly with wind power. We had 80-100 amps coming in all night here last night. Then the sun came up and the wind really picked up. Had 150-170 amps until about 1:00 PM when the water heaters got hot and kicked out. Then the Classics unload the turbines and solar panels and it dropped to 30-40 amps all afternoon - and the turbines turn the voltage clippers red hot because they got nothing to do.

After you had 80-100A all night, your batteries must'd been fully charged. So, the whole 150-170A in the morning were going to heaters, which is a very clever way to store extra energy.

The question is how much current do you allow into the batteries during bulk? I understand the turbines can provide an anormous amount of power when it's windy. Do you allow it all to go to batteries when they're at 50% DOD? Or do you have a limiter? What's the highest current into batteries that you've seen?

NorthGuy · February 2013

Re: Trojan Industrial batteries not working

Vic wrote: »

1. Did you ask Trojan the "technology" used in these batteries? That is, are they Lead-Calcium, Lead-Antinomy, Lead-ShoeLeather ?? etc.

No I didn't ask. The Web site says "Lead-Antimony", but it may be incorrect.

Vic wrote: »

2. Did you have a chance to provide a link to this discussion here?

No. I sent them all the details that I described here and even more.

Vic wrote: »

While your troubles are a single data point, still, it seems that Trojan is unable to provide any real Customer Support.

I don't think that's whole Trojan. I think the main Trojan who makes golf batteries is a decent company.

I think the problem is in the RE division, which is sort of separate. All tech support is only two people who seemed completely incompetent to me and very hard to deal with. They simply ignored most of my questions. I spoke for two hours with their technical director, former system integrator. He knew a lot about batteries in general, but nothing about this particular kind. I asked them to let me speak to the design engeneers, but they didn't. I suspect there's no design engineers. Shortly, I waisted two months of my time and it didn't move anywhere. So, I don't see any point in continuing.

The information and tips that I found on the Internet (and on this forum in particular!!!) were much more helpful, and, if anything, I've learned a lot of interesting stuff about batteries and now have much better understanding of the subject. If Chris is right then I may indeed get away with high voltage charging and the batteries will work fine. If not, It won't be a problem for me to figure out what to buy and how to deal with my future batteries.

ChrisOlson · February 2013

Re: Trojan Industrial batteries not working

NorthGuy wrote: »

After you had 80-100A all night, your batteries must'd been fully charged. So, the whole 150-170A in the morning were going to heaters, which is a very clever way to store extra energy.

The question is how much current do you allow into the batteries during bulk? I understand the turbines can provide an anormous amount of power when it's windy. Do you allow it all to go to batteries when they're at 50% DOD? Or do you have a limiter? What's the highest current into batteries that you've seen?

They can take C/5 charge rate with no problem if they're down to 50% SOC - that's only 40 amps per battery. But that requires charging power of just about 12 kW, and our maximum output with everything going full bore is 11 kW. So it never gets there. As they come up on SOC then the voltage will climb rapidly at high charge rates like that, and if it hits the offset in the Classics the SSR's get activated and the water heaters trim off the peak. As they come up to Absorb, then the Classics will be sending more power to the heaters - the heaters use what power the bank doesn't need. As they get closer and closer to being charged up, more and more power keeps going to the heaters.

This morning when we got up the Classics were in Bulk MPPT mode and the bank voltage was about 55 - I think the wind started blowing around midnite or so last night. By 7:00 the bank was absorbing. It takes 29 kWh to heat two 55 gallon water heaters from well temp to 165 degrees. There was still about 20 gallons of hot water in the top of one heater. But both of them went to full temp in 6 hours on about 22 kWh of power, so the heaters were using an average of 3.6 kW/hour all morning. The bank and our other loads used up the rest.

There's a thread either here or on the MidNite Solar forum (can't remember where it was posted) that describes how our water heating system works with the Classics and Waste Not Hi mode on the AUX2 output. I've kept making changes to it and tweaking it with time to get it to work better. But the bottom line is that we heat every single gallon of hot water we use with electricity. And there ain't many off-grid folks that do that.
--
Chris

Vic · February 2013

Re: Trojan Industrial batteries not working

Hi NorthGuy,

Before posting the above comments, I again perused the Data Sheet for your battery, and saw NOTHING about the chemistry that your battery used, certainly nothing about being Lead-Calcium, which IS an important detail IMHO.

The thought about sending them a link to this Thread was just a thought that they should be embarrassed about the lack of service, and mabe that they might possivly start do ANYTHING WHATSOEVER that would benefit you.

I would be yelling from every hilltop about the crappy batteries you got and the lack of service from Trojan if I were in your situation.

Seems to me that this type of battery Chemistry is very poorly suited for RE/off grid uses. And if they believe that it is useful, they should tell you in great detail just how you should recharge these batteries daily, weekly etc to minimize time spent in Hyper Absorb but maximize battery health.

Have you considered writing the President or CEO of Trojan? Could not hurt. My Opinions, Good Luck, Vic

NorthGuy · February 2013

Re: Trojan Industrial batteries not working

ChrisOlson wrote: »

They can take C/5 charge rate with no problem if they're down to 50% SOC - that's only 40 amps per battery. But that requires charging power of just about 12 kW, and our maximum output with everything going full bore is 11 kW. So it never gets there. As they come up on SOC then the voltage will climb rapidly at high charge rates like that, and if it hits the offset in the Classics the SSR's get activated and the water heaters trim off the peak. As they come up to Absorb, then the Classics will be sending more power to the heaters - the heaters use what power the bank doesn't need. As they get closer and closer to being charged up, more and more power keeps going to the heaters.

Thanks Chris. So, the max rate you're getting with everything on is 18% of C20. That is similar to what I can get with solar - 16%. I've seen it only twice so far, and it didn't significantly affect temperature. But 23% gave me a lot of heat.

Are your heaters AC or DC?

ChrisOlson · February 2013

Re: Trojan Industrial batteries not working

NorthGuy wrote: »

Are your heaters AC or DC?

They are AC. We have two standard 55 gallon Domestic Water Heaters. I took the 4,500 watt elements they come with out, and replaced all the elements with 240VAC 2,000 watt elements. With the smaller elements the load doesn't tax the inverter so heavily during emergencies when we run out of hot water and have to heat the top 20 gallons in one heater with battery power (or sometimes the generator). But the 2,000 watt elements still provide pretty good recovery time when we run out. It takes only about 1 hour and 45 minutes to heat the top 20 gallons in one heater up to 125 degrees with a 2,000 watt element.
--
Chris

NorthGuy · February 2013

Re: Trojan Industrial batteries not working

Vic wrote: »

Before posting the above comments, I again perused the Data Sheet for your battery, and saw NOTHING about the chemistry that your battery used, certainly nothing about being Lead-Calcium, which IS an important detail IMHO.

If you seach for "Trojan IND" in Youtube, you will find a commercial for these batteries. If I remember correctly, it explicitly says that they use lead-antimony.

I think that the effect that Chris got in Surrettes, and I did with Trojans, is not directly related to some specifc chemistry, but rather a consequence of design decision to minimize water usage. This reduces bubbling and thus reduces electrolyte stirring. To get back the stirring, you need to increase the voltage.

Higher voltage may lead to higher corrosion. That's an element of luck. Looks like Chris' batteries resist corrosion well. If my batteries resist corrosion as well as his (Trojan says they do resist corrosion), I should be Ok.

Vic wrote: »

The thought about sending them a link to this Thread was just a thought that they should be embarrassed about the lack of service, and mabe that they might possivly start do ANYTHING WHATSOEVER that would benefit you..

I don't think there's anything useful they can do. I don't think they can say something new to me. The only option is to increase voltage, and I already know that. They can offer replacement under warranty, but their warranty requires me to pay for shipping batteries back and forth, paying for testing, and it'll also will delay my off-griding (grid costs me $200/month), so I will end up paying over a half of the price of the batteries with a chance of getting back batteries with exactly the same problem. Chance that they offer something better than their standard warranty are slim to none.

Vic wrote: »

I would be yelling from every hilltop about the crappy batteries you got and the lack of service from Trojan if I were in your situation.

I plan on writing reviews to warn people that these batteries may not be suitable for RE use.

Vic wrote: »

Seems to me that this type of battery Chemistry is very poorly suited for RE/off grid uses. And if they believe that it is useful, they should tell you in great detail just how you should recharge these batteries daily, weekly etc to minimize time spent in Hyper Absorb but maximize battery health.

I don't think the long charge time is a concern for them. I found an interesting document where they compare my batteries to yours. Here's a quote from the document:

The recharge for both batteries was 2.35 volts-per-cell with a 175
amps-limit for 16 hours. The batteries were given an extra “equalize”
charge at 2.58 volt-per-cell for 4 hours every 20 cycles (approximately
once per month).

See. They charge for 16 hours a day! And, in addition, 4 hours of equalization every three weeks! Such regiment probably overboiled Surrettes to near death, but looks like that's their idea of charging. Perhaps, they believe that such charging is suitable for RE.

Vic wrote: »

Have you considered writing the President or CEO of Trojan? Could not hurt.

I haven't. I'll think about it. Tank you, Vic.

vtmaps · February 2013

Re: Trojan Industrial batteries not working

NorthGuy wrote: »

I don't think that's whole Trojan. I think the main Trojan who makes golf batteries is a decent company.

I think the problem is in the RE division, which is sort of separate. All tech support is only two people who seemed completely incompetent to me and very hard to deal with.

Have you communicated with John DeBoever at Trojan? He represents Trojan on Home Power Magazine's listserve. PM me if you want his email.

--vtMaps

ChrisOlson · February 2013

Re: Trojan Industrial batteries not working

NorthGuy wrote: »

I think that the effect that Chris got in Surrettes, and I did with Trojans, is not directly related to some specifc chemistry, but rather a consequence of design decision to minimize water usage. This reduces bubbling and thus reduces electrolyte stirring. To get back the stirring, you need to increase the voltage.

Higher voltage may lead to higher corrosion. That's an element of luck. Looks like Chris' batteries resist corrosion well. If my batteries resist corrosion as well as his (Trojan says they do resist corrosion), I should be Ok.

None of these battery companies are going to tell you what they got in those batteries unless you get somebody on the phone that will admit it. The old pure lead and lead-antimony batteries that had been used since the late 1800's are just about non-existent anymore.

They use plates with more calcium for applications where excessive gassing (marine engine rooms) and excessive water use is undesirable and corrosive to surrounding equipment in the ship. Large boats have deep cycle battery banks that put most RE battery banks to shame, and they also have special requirements for vibration and preventing explosive gases in engine rooms. Same holds true for industrial batteries used on floor machines and such.

Those Trojan IND's are obviously not the old lead-antimony chemistry, because if they were they'd be dead already with the voltages you've put to them.

So battery chemistry is not as cut and dried as most make it out to be. Pure lead and lead-antimony have such high self-discharge rates that they would be useless for modern RE applications - especially where batteries have to be on float (which kills lead-antimony batteries). And when lead-antimony batteries get old they start using tremendous amounts of water and "fool" charge controllers into thinking the battery is fully charged when it's dead due to migration of antimony between the plates. True pure lead and lead-antimony batteries are terribly short-lived, and manufacturers have played with various chemistry and additives to build what we have today.

Your first clue that you have the modern lead/calcium/tin grids is when a manufacturer tells you that they are designed to minimize water usage and gassing, and have exceptional plate corrosion resistance. But they are not going to tell you EXACTLY what's in it because it's all "trade secret" stuff and "we build the best batteries around".
--
Chris

Blackcherry04 · February 2013

Re: Trojan Industrial batteries not working

Here's the trap, All Trojan talks about is RE ( Renewable Energy ) They don't say anything about a Solar supported PV system. One mans RE can be wind and someones could be hydro or some other source. These Batteries are Forklift batteries in a plastic case. There is just no way that anyone would have enough Sun Hours to support them. Chris can because he has a variety of input sources. I told you before, I see these guy's at the Industrial shows, they do not know anything about RE, it's a waste of time to even stop at their booth, unless you want a free bag with Trojan on it.

Should we ask Trojan to put a disclaimer on their Batteries " These Batteries may not be suitable for PV Solar buy at you own risk " ??.

BB. · February 2013

Re: Trojan Industrial batteries not working

Which probably leads to "Dave Sparks'" love of solar trackers in this day of "cheap panels"--Adds hours of charging time at with lower peak current at the cost of a tracker.

-Bill

Blackcherry04 · February 2013

Re: Trojan Industrial batteries not working

BB. wrote: »

Which probably leads to "Dave Sparks'" love of solar trackers in this day of "cheap panels"--Adds hours of charging time at with lower peak current at the cost of a tracker.

-Bill

I feel bad for North, it's almost a brick wall. The above would be easy to simulate with generator supporting the PV and get the Current up to the batteries early in Bulk and then back it down as he hits Absorb.

NorthGuy · February 2013

Re: Trojan Industrial batteries not working

ChrisOlson wrote: »

Your first clue that you have the modern lead/calcium/tin grids is when a manufacturer tells you that they are designed to minimize water usage and gassing, and have exceptional plate corrosion resistance.

Lower water usage is of very little importance in solar applications. Adding water two or three times a year is not a big deal, given that you need to test batteries with hydrometer anyway. It might be in Marine batteries, but not for stationary applications. Marine batteries are always on the move which promotes electrolyte stirring, so electrolyte get stirred automatically. Your batteries are marketed as Marine batteries. So, it is understandable why they have those characteristics. Mine, however, are marketed as RE batteries for stationary applications. It's hard to understand why they're built like that. They either don't know what's important for solar applications or they just put up something "modern" without any sensible design.

NorthGuy · February 2013

Re: Trojan Industrial batteries not working

Blackcherry04 wrote: »

I feel bad for North, it's almost a brick wall. The above would be easy to simulate with generator supporting the PV and get the Current up to the batteries early in Bulk and then back it down as he hits Absorb.

Thank you BC.

Certaninly, you can achieve very long charge time with trackers, wind, generators etc. But it'll cost you. By my estimates, this would cost me so much that it would be cheaper for me to buy new set of golf cart batteries every year. Batteries need to be used, not charged all the time.

NorthGuy · February 2013

Re: Trojan Industrial batteries not working

vtmaps wrote: »

Have you communicated with John DeBoever at Trojan? He represents Trojan on Home Power Magazine's listserve. PM me if you want his email.

I did. I emailed him and he called me right away. We spoke over an hour. He asked me zillion of questions about chargers, cables, etc. to make sure I do everything correctly. He seemed surprised with the amount of testing and recording that I did.

Next day he called again and suggested that the batteries were sulphated. So, I equalized them under Trojan supervision and got to 1.260 (design SG) in 10 hours at 64V. Even if they were sulphated, that fixed the sulphation. But that didn't solve the problem.

John told me that I would need to CC him on every email to tech support, and I did. But I haven't heard from him since.

Quite interesting that when, during our first conversation, I asked him if the problem that I was experiencing was unusual, he said no.

Blackcherry04 · February 2013

Re: Trojan Industrial batteries not working

NorthGuy wrote: »

Thank you BC.

Certaninly, you can achieve very long charge time with trackers, wind, generators etc. But it'll cost you. By my estimates, this would cost me so much that it would be cheaper for me to buy new set of golf cart batteries every year. Batteries need to be used, not charged all the time.

Yeah, I just don't think you'll ever be able to reasonably charge them properly with PV solar. You have tried as much as anyone could to come up with something that will work. It would be nice if Trojan would bail you out on them is some way, request a trade if they think their so great.

I think your getting the Voltage, but not the current in Bulk, but even if you fixed that you'd still have a issue.

Vic · February 2013

Re: Trojan Industrial batteries not working

NG,

Well, I did find a youtube video -- all 15 minutes of Marketing BS and Trade Names -- but heard nothing stating the chemistry of the battery.

That battery kinna looks like a mechanical knock-off of the Surrette basic design, with some probabale improvements.

I had noted previously that the Trojan IND batts that you have seemed quite a bit heavier than I would expect for the rated C. That IND vs Surrette "test" seemed like total BS, as appears that the discharge was to 100% discharged -- 0% SOC. Believe that the test was constructed to make the competition look as bad as possible and their battery look its best -- whatta surprise.

IMHO, as one who is not a battery designer, using Lead Calcium IS the main factor in reducing water consumption. AGMs and Gells ARE Lead Calcium batteries as are No-Maintenance Auto batteries. And the prime reason that they are Lead Calcium is because these type batteries must essentially consume NO water.

Some folks tout self-discharge as a major drawback of Lead Antinomy batts, but to me, for RE systems, it is not a big deal. Certainly not a big enough deal to cause one to choose another chemistry type. Each system has its own trade-offs, and often these decisions could favor a number of different solutions. Often it comes down to the whim of the designer, and we all learn as we go along.

And, each battery manufacturer does have its own twist on the exact mix of battery consitituants, a bit of VooDo.

I was hoping that Trojan would provide NG with a bit of a formula for recharges, that might define that given the charachteristics of those exact batteries in a PV based system (going to off grid configuration), that with average DOD to a certain amount, daily recharges to this EA value, and weekly full recharge as defined by XX, or similar.

Every system is a bit different, and every day may welll be different in DOD and ability to recharge. Nothing is an absolute, just many shades of grey.
Trojan's new Corporate motto should be, " You bought them, our job is done -- YOU are on your own !"

Opinions Good Luck, Vic

Cariboocoot · February 2013

Re: Trojan Industrial batteries not working

Vic wrote: »

Trojan's new Corporate motto should be, " You bought them, our job is done -- YOU are on your own !"

They can't use that; Xantrex already copyrighted it as their motto.

NorthGuy · February 2013

Re: Trojan Industrial batteries not working

Vic wrote: »

Well, I did find a youtube video -- all 15 minutes of Marketing BS and Trade Names -- but heard nothing stating the chemistry of the battery.

Sorry, I looked at the Web site. They talk about lead-antymony here.

Vic wrote: »

That IND vs Surrette "test" seemed like total BS, as appears that the discharge was to 100% discharged -- 0% SOC. Believe that the test was constructed to make the competition look as bad as possible and their battery look its best -- whatta surprise.

I thought so too. But, it does give you an idea of what they would want to do to a Trojan battery to look its best.

Vic wrote: »

IMHO, as one who is not a battery designer, using Lead Calcium IS the main factor in reducing water consumption. AGMs and Gells ARE Lead Calcium batteries as are No-Maintenance Auto batteries. And the prime reason that they are Lead Calcium is because these type batteries must essentially consume NO water.

This is a quote from Trojan website:

The composition of the plate grid alloy can have a major effect on operating characteristics, such as behavior on float charging and cycle life. Older lead-antimony designs have good cycling capability but require frequent water additions, particularly towards the end of life, due to antimony migration between the plates. Cells with lead-calcium alloys require far less watering, but tend to have a poor cycle life. Lead-selenium alloys are actually low-antimony types with the addition of selenium as a hardening agent. Such alloys promote good cycling capability, while maintaining a constant and fairly low level of water consumption. Many variants on these alloy types are commercially available.

Looks like they attribute to low-antimony lead-selenium alloys the same qualities that they praise for their batteries. Probably, that's what they used.

So, they design for reduced gassing and lower water consumption. And then I need to go to higher voltages to get the gassing back because it's needed to stirr up the electrolyte. Reminds me:

But I was thinking of a plan
To dye one's whiskers green,
And always use so large a fan
That they could not be seen.

LOL

Vic wrote: »

I was hoping that Trojan would provide NG with a bit of a formula for recharges, that might define that given the charachteristics of those exact batteries in a PV based system (going to off grid configuration), that with average DOD to a certain amount, daily recharges to this EA value, and weekly full recharge as defined by XX, or similar.

I think you give them too much credit. Here's how they describe the charging process in their manual:

For proper charging, refer to the instructions that came
with your charge controller and /or inverter/charger.

Vic · February 2013

Re: Trojan Industrial batteries not working

Cariboocoot wrote: »

They can't use that; Xantrex already copyrighted it as their motto.

OH! Busted, Guess that I saw it on the Schneider site, although, this level of directness is unheard of with them.

NG, OK on the Lead-Selenium. Had only scanned the Trojan site and looked at the Data Sheet for your batts, and saw nothing about the composition.

After watching the Trojan video, am agreeing with you that perhaps they have buttoned up the plates so well that perhaps the gasses cannot easily escape.

Seems that your charging approach helps improve the mixing ... what else can you do. Good Luck, Vic

vtmaps · February 2013

Re: Trojan Industrial batteries not working

NorthGuy wrote: »

Quite interesting that when, during our first conversation, I asked him if the problem that I was experiencing was unusual, he said no.

Probably during the first conversation he was under the impression that your batteries were sulfated for all the usual reasons. Your careful observations indicate that either these batteries are not suitable for solar or that your concept of charging and SG is not correct for these batteries.

What I am getting at is that maybe frequent full charge (as measured by SG) is over-rated (for these particular batteries). Perhaps there is something to be said for operating these batteries in the 50-90% range of SOC, with monthly full charge (equalization voltages). Charging to 90% is certainly more efficient than charging to 100%.

Its disappointing that Trojan won't give you some practical advice on how to use these batteries. For a real kick in the head, try talking to tech support at Interstate Battery.

--vtMaps

NorthGuy · February 2013

Re: Trojan Industrial batteries not working

vtmaps wrote: »

Probably during the first conversation he was under the impression that your batteries were sulfated for all the usual reasons.

That is a definite possibility. I had my maximum SG at 1.247 then. He saw this as a bad sign because it should be 1.260. I don't think the difference is substantial, but anyway, I have it at 1.260 now. He didn't see slow charging as a problem.

Slow absorption does not seem to be a problem for Trojan at all. I think that this is why I can't get any real support from them. They think that if batteries are not charged, you simply continue charging them until they're charged. No matter how long it takes. They see me as a crazy person who doesn't understand this simple fact and doesn't want to charge batteries when it's necessary.

vtmaps wrote: »

Your careful observations indicate that either these batteries are not suitable for solar or that your concept of charging and SG is not correct for these batteries.

What I am getting at is that maybe frequent full charge (as measured by SG) is over-rated (for these particular batteries). Perhaps there is something to be said for operating these batteries in the 50-90% range of SOC, with monthly full charge (equalization voltages). Charging to 90% is certainly more efficient than charging to 100%.

My original concept (before I bought batteries) was like this:

You charge batteries to about 80% every day (unless Sun charges them more). Then you charge them to 100% once a week to take care of possible sulphation and stratification. Sulphation and stratification can still creep in, so I monitor SG after full charges, and if it's less than 1.22 or varies across cell, I do equalization. I expected this to happen 2-3 times a year. I wanted to equalize for 1 or 2 hours because equalization is harmful to batteries.

My current concept is this:

You charge to the beginning of absorption every day (unless Sun charges close to that or more). Every charge causes severe stratification, which also accumulates from charge to charge. The bottom of the batteries has much more concentrated acid and thus require higher voltages. Since my voltages are fixed at 64V, the absorption voltage is reached with much lower SOC. The day afer full charge, absorption starts at 90% SOC. After a week of bulk-only, absorption starts at 75% SOC. So, I start the week with 50-90% cycling and I end the week with 35-75% cycling. At this point I have to do a full charge, which, at this point, takes 4 to 6 hours at 64V and increases SG to within 0.005 to 0.015 of the full. These full charges should be enough to avoid sulphation. I don't think I need extra equalizations on top of that, but it's still a good idea to monitor SG after full charges.

I am now experimenting with slightly longer daily charges (bulk + absorption until current drops to 70A). The idea is that this will slow down the cumulative stratification and may let me do full charges less frequently.

My only concern is that using 64V when 58.8V is recommended may cause corrosion and shorten battery life. However, it is impossible to accomplish the task with lower voltages.

NorthGuy · March 2013

Re: Trojan Industrial batteries not working

Here's the update.

As days got longer and we got lots of sun, I was able to charge the batteries with solar only and had just enough time to complete 4-hr absorptions. March is believed to be the most productive solar month.

I used 64V and 4-hour absorption duration. When 4-5 sunny days come in a row, this starts producing SGs around 1.255 (1.260 is the spec) when it goes to float. After a sunny day comes after a number of cloudy days, I get values around 1.240 at the beginning of float, but it's improving with each next day and it gets to 1.255 after 4-5 days. So, I believe 4-hour absorptions at 64V charge batteries well.

I also tried shorter duration or lower voltage (62V). In both cases, SG doesn't go higher than 1.240. I guess I'm stuck with 64V and 4 hours.

When charging that way, batteries started to use more water, perhaps even a little bit too much. I measured water level and projected water loss into the future. Looks like, under this charging regime, I'll be using from 1/2 to 3/4 gallons of water per cell (2V; 673AH) per year, or 12-18 gallons per year for the whole bank. Is that a good level of water usage?

northerner · March 2013

Re: Trojan Industrial batteries not working

NorthGuy wrote: »

Here's the update.

As days got longer and we got lots of sun, I was able to charge the batteries with solar only and had just enough time to complete 4-hr absorptions. March is believed to be the most productive solar month.

I used 64V and 4-hour absorption duration. When 4-5 sunny days come in a row, this starts producing SGs around 1.255 (1.260 is the spec) when it goes to float. After a sunny day comes after a number of cloudy days, I get values around 1.240 at the beginning of float, but it's improving with each next day and it gets to 1.255 after 4-5 days. So, I believe 4-hour absorptions at 64V charge batteries well.

I also tried shorter duration or lower voltage (62V). In both cases, SG doesn't go higher than 1.240. I guess I'm stuck with 64V and 4 hours.

When charging that way, batteries started to use more water, perhaps even a little bit too much. I measured water level and projected water loss into the future. Looks like, under this charging regime, I'll be using from 1/2 to 3/4 gallons of water per cell (2V; 673AH) per year, or 12-18 gallons per year for the whole bank. Is that a good level of water usage?

Are you using water misers or equivalent caps to help reduce water loss? If not, that would definitely help. I'm no expert on water loss or for that matter the charging process, but it's my understanding that it's better to charge a little more aggressively than to under charge and sulfate the plates.

I just went through a similar issue with my Trojan L16's as the sg's were low. Particularly on a newer bank of 4 that I just added to the system within the last 2 months or so. I was able to bring the sg up, after doing several EQ's in a row, but they are still low. They are between 1.235 and 1.250, whereas they should be 1.277. I think I will periodically continue to do more EQ's, although, setting the absorb voltage a little higher and a longer duration may accomplish the same thing?

ChrisOlson · March 2013

Re: Trojan Industrial batteries not working

NorthGuy wrote: »

I'll be using from 1/2 to 3/4 gallons of water per cell (2V; 673AH) per year, or 12-18 gallons per year for the whole bank. Is that a good level of water usage?

I don't think that's terrible. I service the bank every three months here and check water once a month. We use about 10 gallons a year in twenty four Rolls T12-250's. But they don't don't use much in the winter - in fact none at all. As of today I haven't added any water to them since back in November.

But your batteries are a little more stubborn than mine. I can run mine without full charges for a week to 10 days and get them up to 1.255 in one good day and 3 hours @ 62 volts. If I did absorb them at 64.0 I know they would take quite a bit more water.
--
Chris

NorthGuy · March 2013

Re: Trojan Industrial batteries not working

northerner wrote: »

Are you using water misers or equivalent caps to help reduce water loss?

No. I don't use the miser caps. I don't see any acid spray coming out of the batteries. And I don't think adding water two times a year is a problem.

northerner wrote: »

I just went through a similar issue with my Trojan L16's as the sg's were low. Particularly on a newer bank of 4 that I just added to the system within the last 2 months or so. I was able to bring the sg up, after doing several EQ's in a row, but they are still low. They are between 1.235 and 1.250, whereas they should be 1.277. I think I will periodically continue to do more EQ's, although, setting the absorb voltage a little higher and a longer duration may accomplish the same thing?

Are they L16-RE?

My batteries are so extremely freakish, I'm not sure my experience is applicable to any other batteries. My guess is they designed for reduced water loss and overdesigned a bit - my batteries produced hardly any bubbles, so electrolyte didn't get mixed and SG was low. I had to spend hours (10-15) in equalizing to get SG to specs, and yet after next re-charge it was low again. As a result, I had to increase absorption voltages/durations to get a good charge. I only got it at 64V (would be 32V for 24V system) and 4 hours. That's way to high by any standard, but at least I can charge them that way. Better this than sulphation.

You have Trojan too. May be not as bad as mine, but you may have a similar problem. I'm sure your voltage and duration are not as extreme as mine, so you have room where to move.

Surfpath · March 2013

Re: Trojan Industrial batteries not working

NorthGuy wrote: »

So, I believe 4-hour absorptions at 64V charge batteries well.

Good to hear the news and possible progress Northguy. Although the verdict regarding the effects of this high voltage/long charging is still unknown.

Regardless, I am also of the opinion that the Trojan L16RE's benefit from higher Absorb voltages and longer Absorbs. Nevertheless, I only have a few weeks of full PV charging experience under my belt. I will report back when I have a little more data.

By the way, I am a little embarrassed to say that I am not quite sure how to 'force' a longer absorption using the Outback CC. On average, my FM80 switches to float after about 30 minutes of absorb, even though I set absorb to be for 2 hrs in the CC (advanced?) settings.

North, I know you dont use an Outback CC, but maybe someone can quickly point me in the right direction.

Cariboocoot · March 2013

Re: Trojan Industrial batteries not working

Surfpath wrote: »

By the way, I am a little embarrassed to say that I am not quite sure how to 'force' a longer absorption using the Outback CC. On average, my FM80 switches to float after about 30 minutes of absorb, even though I set absorb to be for 2 hrs in the CC (advanced?) settings.

North, I know you dont use an Outback CC, but maybe someone can quickly point me in the right direction.

Well if you set the Absorb time limit to 2 hours you sure aren't going to get a 4 hour Absorb.
Nice thing about Outback controllers; you can set minimum and maximum Absorb time as well as End Amps.
It's all in the (thick, complex) manual.

northerner · March 2013

Re: Trojan Industrial batteries not working

Are they L16-RE?

Mine are the high capacity (L16H-AC). That was my first EQ so that may explain it? But it's strange that the newer bank sg's were low. I had fully charged that bank and cycled them quite a few times prior to merging with older bank of 4. I now have both banks at the same sg, but still a bit low.

Surfpath · March 2013

Re: Trojan Industrial batteries not working

Hi Coot, I wasn't intending to set a 4 hour absorb. I'd be happy to see what 2 hours do at this beginning point. I have set end amps (2% of bank amp hrs - I think I set it for 7amps). However, I guess I have to go back to my thick complex manual regarding how to set min and max absorb. Thanks again NorthGuy for your update. I hope to add to the "RE" research in the coming weeks. SP

Trojan Industrial batteries not working

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