Trojan Industrial batteries not working

Blackcherry04

Re: Trojan Industrial batteries not working

North, how does their temperature compensation figure into your voltage settings. When they say " Per Cell " that's 3 cells per battery ?? Doesn't sound like a lot till you do the math.

Charging temperature compensation
To the Voltage Reading -- Subtract 0.005 volt per cell (VPC) for every 1°C above 25°C or add 0.005 volt per cell for every 1°C below 25°C.

Charger Voltage Settings (at 77°F/25°C)

Voltage per cell

Absorption charge 2.35-2.45, High end 58.8 V @ 48 volts at 77 deg F.

NorthGuy

Re: Trojan Industrial batteries not working

Blackcherry04 wrote: »

North, how does their temperature compensation figure into your voltage settings. When they say " Per Cell " is that 3 cells per battery ?? Doesn't sound like a lot till you do the math.

Charging temperature compensation
To the Voltage Reading -- Subtract 0.005 volt per cell (VPC) for every 1°C above 25°C or add 0.005 volt per cell for every 1°C below 25°C.

Yes, I have 3 cells/battery, 24 calls overall. 0.005*24 = 0.120V/K = 120mV/K

westbranch

Re: Trojan Industrial batteries not working

NorthGuy wrote: »

So, Trojan didn't take the batteries back. I guess the problems that I'm experiencing are there by design. :grr

If you are right on that deduction, it seems to me that they then should have a solution for you to get the SG up to where it should be.... don't you think?

Blackcherry04

Re: Trojan Industrial batteries not working

NorthGuy wrote: »

Yes, I have 3 cells/battery, 24 calls overall. 0.005*24 = 0.120V/K = 120mV/K

Ok, thats pre Degree, whats the battery temperature ??

NorthGuy

Re: Trojan Industrial batteries not working

Cariboocoot wrote: »

battery correction should never involve months of mucking about and waiting for miracles to happen. If they don't start improving in a couple of charge cycles something is either wrong about the correction charging process being used or terminally wrong with the batteries.

I don't think that something can be corrected here. Unlike most other cases, I can easily bring SG to 1.260 and it's all even accross cells. The problem that it takes enormous emount of time and/or voltage to do so - 10 hours at 64V. And once I get them to 1.260 then cycle through one discharge/charge, I'm back where I was - would need another 10 hours at 64V. I thought that was a manufacturing defect. I don't know what it was - too tall batteries, bad separator design, anti-bubbling additives - and I cannot really find that out. Trojan doesn't want to take batteries back, so I'm stuck with them.

The problem is that I need to charge them somehow. Clearly, I need to use 64V absorption. Would go higher, but that's the max for Xantrex. Still takes too long. Can only do once a week. No other options here.

My choices for weekly charges are:

1. 4-hour absorptions at 64V, which brings them to 1.245 (vs. 1.260 specs)
2. 6-hour absorptions at 64V, which is much harder to accomplish, but brings them to 1.253
3. 10-hour absorbtions at 64V, which should bring me to 1.260, but I simply cannot do it, so this is not a choice.
4. Throw batteries away. Too early for that. Need ro try (1) or (2) first.

I need to somehow make a choice between (1) and (2). Don't have any experience to make that call. Any considerations in this respect would be appreciated.

NorthGuy

Re: Trojan Industrial batteries not working

Blackcherry04 wrote: »

Ok, thats pre Degree, whats the battery temperature ??

They're moving between 18 and 27. My 64 setting produces 65-sh voltages on XW6048 when they're colder, and it drops slightly below 64 when they're above 25.

NorthGuy

Re: Trojan Industrial batteries not working

westbranch wrote: »

If you are right on that deduction, it seems to me that they then should have a solution for you to get the SG up to where it should be.... don't you think?

The solution does exist - 10 hours at 64V does it every time. That's just not a solution that I can use.

Blackcherry04

Re: Trojan Industrial batteries not working

NorthGuy wrote: »

They're moving between 18 and 27. My 64 setting produces 65-sh voltages on XW6048 when they're colder, and it drops slightly below 64 when they're above 25.

Then I guess with a 50 Deg differential from 77 deg they are right where they should be with 6 volts added. You have a hard mountain to climb with solar to ever get there living where you do. I feel your pain.

NorthGuy

Re: Trojan Industrial batteries not working

Blackcherry04 wrote: »

Then I guess with a 50 Deg differential from 77 deg they are right where they should be with 6 volts added. You have a hard mountain to climb with solar to ever get there living where you do. I feel your pain.

These are C not F. 25C = 77F So they're not far off.

Blackcherry04

Re: Trojan Industrial batteries not working

NorthGuy wrote: »

These are C not F. 25C = 77F So they're not far off.

They're moving between 18 and 27.

These are centigrade ?? I am confused......lol

westbranch

Re: Trojan Industrial batteries not working

ROCK..... you .....HARD PLACE Hmmmmm

Well I think it is time to do some experimentation, so you KNOW that #2 is the 'final destination' should all else fail...

I would try # 1 for a week and see just how long it takes a #2 to EQ them to 1.260. Assuming it will take longer than stated above...

alternatively

Try #1 for a week and just do a #2 and go another week of #1,then another #2 and then assess .... you can always do #2 and redo if necessary.

Hope this makes sense..

BB.

Re: Trojan Industrial batteries not working

Remember the battery temperature compensation is "negative" (temperature rises, charging voltage setpoint falls).

Hmmm... About time to develop a little USB stand alone data logger. Two volt meters (or voltmeter + current loop) and a shunt. Connect to battery bank "in question". Run for 1-6 weeks, upload file (or return device) to vendor for analysis.

-Bill

Cariboocoot

Re: Trojan Industrial batteries not working

This sounds very much like the batteries were originally filled with low concentration electrolyte. This might be the case for industrial batteries as they are looking at longer lifetime service with less power density. It is impossible to raise the SG permanently because it isn't meant to be higher.

And yet companies (not just Trojan) continue to tout products as being "ideal for" an application when in fact they are unsuitable. :grr

If there's a moral to this it's "Always check the batteries when they are new and fully charged to make sure they really are new and fully charged."

NorthGuy

Re: Trojan Industrial batteries not working

Blackcherry04 wrote: »

These are centigrade ?? I am confused......lol

Sure. They're in a heated garage with 12C ambient.

Blackcherry04

Re: Trojan Industrial batteries not working

NorthGuy wrote: »

Sure. They're in a heated garage with 12C ambient.

Got you, now I see what your saying. 64 -80 F they ought to think it's summer.

NorthGuy

Re: Trojan Industrial batteries not working

westbranch wrote: »

ROCK..... you .....HARD PLACE

Exactly

westbranch wrote: »

Well I think it is time to do some experimentation, so you KNOW that #2 is the 'final destination' should all else fail...

I would try # 1 for a week and see just how long it takes a #2 to EQ them to 1.260. Assuming it will take longer than stated above...

alternatively

Try #1 for a week and just do a #2 and go another week of #1,then another #2 and then assess .... you can always do #2 and redo if necessary.

Hope this makes sense..

So, the idea is to try #1 for a while and see if SG stays up. Then if it does, continue using #1, and if it doesn't then I'm stuck with #2.

This sound like a good plan. Thank you, westbranch.

ChrisOlson

Re: Trojan Industrial batteries not working

NorthGuy wrote: »

So, I spent two weeks trying to model my off-grid living. It went rather well. I did two weekly re-charges with absorption voltage set to 64V. It was nearly enough to charge the batteries and stirr up electrolyte. After 4 hours of absorbtion at 64V, the SG moves to 1.245, which is within 0.015 of the full SG of 1.260

LOL! Those batteries are even more stubborn than mine. But I think you'll find like I did - the high absorb voltage does not hurt them at all and it's not going to shorten their life because they never get hot. The hydrometer tells the story, and that's what you have to go by. We got a bit of an advantage over you in that we got wind power in the mix and the turbines put out more power by far than the solar panels do on a good day. So we cycle our bank from 50-80% SOC for days on end, and invariably we'll get a day - usually every 10 days or so - that we get enough power to get them thru a full absorb and get them up to 1.255-1.260 SG. They've been perfectly fine with that and show no problems at all.

The moral to the story is - don't worry about it if they don't make it to full charge every single day. Your bank is actually more efficient that way for amp-hours in vs amp-hours out. And I believe your bank will last longer because you're not running a full cycle on them every single day. Set up your system to use the gen about once every 10 days or so to do a full charge and I think you and your batteries will be happy. Batteries do not live their lives on a solar day like humans do.

It would be interesting to hear back after time to find out, if you use the same charging regimen as I have had to use, if it makes the maintenance EQ's totally unnecessary like it has here. Again, the hydrometer tells the story on that - if the cells are all even, then you don't need to equalize them and the 4 hour absorbs at the higher voltage, plus an occasional full charge, is all they need to stay healthy.

One other thing - have you tried the Boost Charging with your XW, using a high bulk voltage for the first hour, to see if it reduces your gen run time when you have to use the gen? It might not hurt to use that at 64.0 and set absorb to 62.0 in the XW's charging menu for the ~10 day full charge intervals when you use the gen.
--
Chris

jeffkruse

Re: Trojan Industrial batteries not working

With my system it seemed like it was 90% efficient getting the batteries up to 80 – 90% SOC but then it was only 20% efficient trying to get to 100% SOC.

In other words it took a lot more energy to get that last 10% of charge.

ChrisOlson

Re: Trojan Industrial batteries not working

jeffkruse wrote: »

With my system it seemed like it was 90% efficient getting the batteries up to 80 – 90% SOC but then it was only 20% efficient trying to get to 100% SOC.

What I've seen here is better than 90% efficiency up to 80% SOC. And less than 50% from 80-100% SOC. It could very well be that that last 10% SOC is 20% efficient or so. But that's why I don't believe in cycling my bank to 100% SOC every single day. The batteries don't need it anyway. We take good care of them and work them hard. But it's my personal belief that full charge cycling on a 24 hour period will shorten their life more than the way I have chosen to handle their idiosyncrasies with the high voltages (and low efficiency) they take to get them 100%.

I hope this works out for NorthGuy too. I just think it's unrealistic to expect to get them to 100% SOC every single day. If they're an industrial type battery with lead-calcium grids (to handle vibration inherent in industrial and marine applications), or were filled with a diluted electrolyte when new, they'll be a pain just like ours have been. But I can't complain on their long term performance here, and NorthGuy's problem with his batteries sounds IDENTICAL to what I ran up against.
--
Chris

Blackcherry04

Re: Trojan Industrial batteries not working

Ok, For years I'v used the 50-80% for days at a time and it's worked great. 2 year's ago I started a new charge regimen were I doubled the charge rate. After 2 years the batteries are still doing great. Since there is no gassing there is very little heat. Your thoughts, of course it violates the internet rule of thumb often parroted.

NorthGuy

Re: Trojan Industrial batteries not working

jeffkruse wrote: »

With my system it seemed like it was 90% efficient getting the batteries up to 80 – 90% SOC but then it was only 20% efficient trying to get to 100% SOC.

In other words it took a lot more energy to get that last 10% of charge.

That is because to get last 10% of SOC you spend a lot of energy on bubbling. I tried to estimate this, and during the last hour of absorption, only 23% of energy is stored in the battery.

During past two weeks I cycled it using bulk only (unless solar would take it further), that is no more than 80% SOC, and then I discharged to 30-50% SOC. There's no problem with that part.

But, once in a while you need to take it to full. I tried to do that once a week. And that's where the problem is. It takes lots of time and energy to do that. During reasonable time, even at 64V, I can only take it up to 96-98% SOC.

NorthGuy

Re: Trojan Industrial batteries not working

ChrisOlson wrote: »

LOL! Those batteries are even more stubborn than mine.

Well. To get a reasonably full charge in three hours, I would probably need 66V, but I cannot try it because my XW only goes to 64V.

ChrisOlson wrote: »

So we cycle our bank from 50-80% SOC for days on end, and invariably we'll get a day - usually every 10 days or so - that we get enough power to get them thru a full absorb and get them up to 1.255-1.260 SG. They've been perfectly fine with that and show no problems at all.

That's what I was truing to do past 2 weeks - 40-80% cycling. And that part works great. As I remember, your SG should be 1.265, so you when you do full absorb every 10 days, you get within 0.005-0.010 from your full SG. That would take 6 hours at 64V for me. Since it worked for you for two years, should be fine for me too. I'll try to get away with 4 hours (about 0.015 from full SG). I hope that even if I get in troubles, it should fix itself during the summer time when I have enough Sun to do full absorptions.

ChrisOlson wrote: »

It would be interesting to hear back after time to find out, if you use the same charging regimen as I have had to use, if it makes the maintenance EQ's totally unnecessary like it has here. Again, the hydrometer tells the story on that - if the cells are all even, then you don't need to equalize them and the 4 hour absorbs at the higher voltage, plus an occasional full charge, is all they need to stay healthy.

I'll be posting regularly. The time will tell.

ChrisOlson wrote: »

One other thing - have you tried the Boost Charging with your XW, using a high bulk voltage for the first hour, to see if it reduces your gen run time when you have to use the gen? It might not hurt to use that at 64.0 and set absorb to 62.0 in the XW's charging menu for the ~10 day full charge intervals when you use the gen.

I tried that. I first started increasing the bulk voltage by 1V at a time to get boost voltage. When it went to 64V, I strated increasing absorption voltage. Once it went to 64V, they're now eve again. LOL!

I probably could do better if I could do 65V or 66V. I don't think it may be more distructive than 64V, but would bring sligltly better charging. I probably can do that if I temper with temperature senser and make XW think that batteries are cooler than they are. However, I'm afraid that 65-66V may be harmful to the inverter. Even at 64V, I set maximum charging current to 93A not to exceed overall 6kW rating.

ChrisOlson

Re: Trojan Industrial batteries not working

NorthGuy wrote: »

That's what I was truing to do past 2 weeks - 40-80% cycling. And that part works great. As I remember, your SG should be 1.265, so you when you do full absorb every 10 days, you get within 0.005-0.010 from your full SG. That would take 6 hours at 64V for me.

If I can get mine to 1.255-1.260 I call it "good enough". It usually takes 6 hours or so @ 62.0. So your batteries are even a bit tougher than what we got.

I hope that after awhile you'll get settled in with them and they'll be just fine for you. It's kind of alarming at first because you're breaking every rule in the book. But after I got used to it they're no problem at all and I used the book to start a fire in the wood furnace
--
Chris

NorthGuy

Re: Trojan Industrial batteries not working

Blackcherry04 wrote: »

Ok, For years I'v used the 50-80% for days at a time and it's worked great. 2 year's ago I started a new charge regimen were I doubled the charge rate. After 2 years the batteries are still doing great. Since there is no gassing there is very little heat. Your thoughts, of course it violates the internet rule of thumb often parroted.

BlackCherry,

Do you mean bulk charge rates? What rate do you use now?

NorthGuy

Re: Trojan Industrial batteries not working

ChrisOlson wrote: »

If I can get mine to 1.255-1.260 I call it "good enough". It usually takes 6 hours or so @ 62.0. So your batteries are even a bit tougher than what we got.

Looks like mine are doing at 64V what yours are doing at 62V. Otherwise, they behave the same.

ChrisOlson wrote: »

I hope that after awhile you'll get settled in with them and they'll be just fine for you.

Thank you Chris. If not for your inspirational story, I would feel much worse about my batteries ...

Blackcherry04

Re: Trojan Industrial batteries not working

NorthGuy wrote: »

BlackCherry,

Do you mean bulk charge rates? What rate do you use now?

Yes, I have a 1100 amp hr bank @ 12 v that I have Bulked at 250 amps for the last 2 years in the 50% - 80% range I have a cutoff relay and drop off 125 amps @ 14.2 ( below gassing ) when I do a full re-charge. I cut the re-charge time in half and by mid summer, I'll have paid for the batteries in fuel saving alone. My opinion is they are better, they seem to hold up longer under load. I doubt you could get much in here on using higher bulk rates. Chris could tell us more when his wind is kicking in, about his rates.

Thinking about the 3 variables Voltage, Time and Current.

NorthGuy

Re: Trojan Industrial batteries not working

Blackcherry04 wrote: »

Yes, I have a 1100 amp hr bank @ 12 v that I have Bulked at 250 amps for the last 2 years in the 50% - 80% range I have a cutoff relay and drop off 125 amps @ 14.2 ( below gassing ) when I do a full re-charge. I cut the re-charge time in half and by mid summer, I'll have paid for the batteries in fuel saving alone. My opinion is they are better, they seem to hold up longer under load. I doubt you could get much in here on using higher bulk rates. Chris could tell us more when his wind is kicking in, about his rates.

Few days ago, there was a real cloudy day, so I decided that it's all over and started generator at about 3 pm. But then the sun suddenly came up and added to my generator. I got 160A combined (24% for my 673A bank). It kept for an hour it it almost made to absorption, but then sun disappeared and voltage came down. During that hour, the temparature rised 7C - from 18C to 25C!

Does the temperature increase similarly when you charge at 250A?

Blackcherry04

Re: Trojan Industrial batteries not working

NorthGuy wrote: »

Few days ago, there was a real cloudy day, so I decided that it's all over and started generator at about 3 pm. But then the sun suddenly came up and added to my generator. I got 160A combined (24% for my 673A bank). It kept for an hour it it almost made to absorption, but then sun disappeared and voltage came down. During that hour, the temparature rised 7C - from 18C to 25C!

Does the temperature increase similarly when you charge at 250A?

About like yours 5-8 degrees. It use to take me 2 1/2 hrs ( 125 amps ) to from 50% ish to 80% , now takes a little over a hour. If you have a RTS/BTS it'll cut the voltage back but it's really not a factor, but you still have the current. What if you doubled your solar input, you'd have double current and the same voltage. Bulk is really the only place current is a factor as the batteries will accept pretty much what you give them, once above gassing voltage they will only accept what they can.

In my case if I am 12.1 V and I plug in 250 amps, my voltage goes right to 12.6 v. It will stay at 12.6v until the battery voltage starts to catch up, then begin to rise a .10 v at a time. generally I'll go up to 13.8v in bulk and shut down. When I cut it off, the voltage will drop right to 12.5 V unloaded and thats plenty to get through the night and back to 12.1 V in the morning.
.

ChrisOlson

Re: Trojan Industrial batteries not working

Blackcherry04 wrote: »

Chris could tell us more when his wind is kicking in, about his rates.

It varies wildly with wind power. We had 80-100 amps coming in all night here last night. Then the sun came up and the wind really picked up. Had 150-170 amps until about 1:00 PM when the water heaters got hot and kicked out. Then the Classics unload the turbines and solar panels and it dropped to 30-40 amps all afternoon - and the turbines turn the voltage clippers red hot because they got nothing to do.

We stick a lot of power into the water heaters and store up 110 gallons of water at 165 degrees (as high as the stats will go on the heaters) when we got the power. We got one of those mixing valves on the water heaters that blends cold water with the hot coming out so it's at 125 degrees when it comes out the faucet. We can go up a week on 110 gallons of water @ 165 degrees.

So our setup is different than most because with solar and wind going full bore our bank can't even handle it - so the power goes to the water heaters using "Waste Not Hi" mode in the Classic controllers on Aux2, operating SSR's that turn on 240V power to the water heaters.
--
Chris

Vic

Re: Trojan Industrial batteries not working

Hi NorthGuy,

Sorry to hear of the "decision" from Trojan, and of your continuing issues with these batteries.

A couple of things;

1. Did you ask Trojan the "technology" used in these batteries? That is, are they Lead-Calcium, Lead-Antinomy, Lead-ShoeLeather ?? etc.

2. Did you have a chance to provide a link to this discussion here? While your troubles are a single data point, still, it seems that Trojan is unable to provide any real Customer Support.

For any systems that I am involved with in the future, I am beginning to doubt that Trojan will be on the list of probable vendors, and will consider advising others against any Trojan battery. This may be a bit too harsh, as have not seen many other situations of Trojan's total lack of support/warranty service.

Good Luck, Vic