Trojan Industrial batteries not working

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  • NorthGuy
    NorthGuy Solar Expert Posts: 1,913 ✭✭
    #62
    Re: Trojan Industrial batteries not working
    solar_dave wrote: »
    Didn't I read someplace that adding a small air pump and tubing to help with the stirring was possible? Wouldn't that cure all these stratification issues on these really tall batteries and make the Absorb cycle more effective.

    I think that would be a good idea. Even better would be to take electrolyte from the top of the can and pump it to the bottom. This would mix things up in 10 minutes and would save lots of energy wasted on bubbling. This would require an acid-resistant pump too.

    However, I don't feel comfortable opening batteries and retrofitting pumps inside them.
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  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    #63
    Re: Trojan Industrial batteries not working
    solar_dave wrote: »
    Didn't I read someplace that adding a small air pump and tubing to help with the stirring was possible? Wouldn't that cure all these stratification issues on these really tall batteries and make the Absorb cycle more effective.

    Some forklift batteries do this. John p nicely tested the process for us all and found that in an off-grid situation it's not worth it. The power to run the pump exceeds the improvement in battery charging. Not to mention the difficulties in rigging up such a system to batteries not designed for it to begin with.

    Other stirring methods that have been suggested include automatic rockers. Again, power in exceeds power out.

    Normally the stratification issue isn't an issue. For the most part there are enough internal eddies in the electrolyte that the sulphation does not occur on upper or lower plate only, nor does the mixing. It really doesn't take much to keep things stirred. If the charge rates/Voltages/times are per spec the batteries will last long enough to be of value. There's no sudden, catastrophic failure looming as a result.

    Largely another case of spending a dollar to get a ten cent rebate. :roll:
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  • NorthGuy
    NorthGuy Solar Expert Posts: 1,913 ✭✭
    #64
    Re: Trojan Industrial batteries not working
    BB. wrote: »
    Some links to various threads and information

    Thank you Bill. I found this thread already. It has lots of very useful information.

    I found a very valuable reference in this thread:
    stephendv wrote: »
    Yup, dunno :) There was a PhD thesis on an idea to do a similar pulsed EQ charge at the start of absorb so that the electrolyte was destratified for the duration of absorb, apparently allowed for faster overral charging: http://tel.archives-ouvertes.fr/docs/00/44/36/15/PDF/these_Phuong_Nguyen_bis.pdf.

    Besides his own ideas, he had really good explanations on how batteries got charged, discharged etc. When you read through Internet, you may get an impression that stratification is a bad condition which happens when you neglect your batteries for a long time. That's completely wrong. According to this guy, stratification is not a long term effect. Very significant stratification occurs at every cycle, and if you don't take care of it within short time, bad effects are immediate.

    Essentially, if you look at his graphs, the charging method that he's suggesting is high-voltage absorption. This has a potential to dramatically reduce charging times because charging occurs sumultaneously with stirring.
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  • NorthGuy
    NorthGuy Solar Expert Posts: 1,913 ✭✭
    #65
    Re: Trojan Industrial batteries not working
    Cariboocoot wrote: »
    It really doesn't take much to keep things stirred.

    It depends. For my batteries I need (and I think I estimated it quite accurately) 160AH, almost 10kWh to completely stirr things up. This is almost equal to my daily consumption! With that energy, you can run a 50W pump continuously for more than a week!

    Ok. My batteries my be defective, so this is not a good case.

    However, look at this thread (also involving Trojan batteries):
    Surfpath wrote: »
    My 5.5 hour charge process usually involves a 5 hour absorb, but this only brings up SOC to 1.260. I don't get to the 1.277 that Trojan recommends, mainly because I don't have the time to monitor the genny for longer than 5-6 hours.

    5 hours of absorption on batteries that are hardly ever discharged (only 0.5 hours of bulk) still don't get the electrolyte stirred up!
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  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    #66
    Re: Trojan Industrial batteries not working

    Yes, yet another chapter in "Why Really Large Amp Hour Battery Banks Aren't Such A Great Idea". :p

    Ought to add this to the list of reasons for going up in Voltage instead of out in Amperage. But once you hit 48 Volt system you're kinda stuck.
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  • NorthGuy
    NorthGuy Solar Expert Posts: 1,913 ✭✭
    #67
    Re: Trojan Industrial batteries not working
    Cariboocoot wrote: »
    Yes, yet another chapter in "Why Really Large Amp Hour Battery Banks Aren't Such A Great Idea". :p

    Ought to add this to the list of reasons for going up in Voltage instead of out in Amperage. But once you hit 48 Volt system you're kinda stuck.

    My bank is 48V. And I don't think it is too large. For example, relative to the size of the panels, my bank is 3 times smaller than yours in AH.
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  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    #68
    Re: Trojan Industrial batteries not working

    That's what I said.
    Once you're at 48 Volt system you can't really go up in system Voltage to store more capacity so you've not choice but to increase Amp hours. That's when the problem of trying to get the whole thing charged up completely in one day from solar alone comes up.

    You've got a 6kW array? On 48 Volts I'd expect about 1000 Amp hours max battery bank. So there you are inevitably with the tall case batteries.

    What would be an interesting (and expensive) experiment would be to compare side-by-side large capacity in tall case vs. large capacity in standard case batteries (with the resultant extra wiring) and see which performed better in terms of recharging to full SG after like discharge.

    How do we get a government grant for that? :D
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  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,637 admin
    #69
    Re: Trojan Industrial batteries not working

    NorthGuy,

    Your 673 AH battery bank is about the recommended battery bank for a "fully used" 6kW AC inverter (the Xantrex), as well as about the minimum recommended for a 6kW solar array.

    From a first glance, you have a "nicely" balanced system.

    The issue is for any bank that is over ~1,000 AH, you are looking at 50-130-250 amps of charging current (5%-13%-25% rate of charge rules of thumbs)... Above 60-100 amps, the support equipment (chargers) and the wiring (cables+breakers+fusing) gets to be difficult to find (in solar RE at least) and expensive.

    And, per Marc's 48 volt comment--There are not very many devices of any type out there that would be the next step up of ~96-120 VDC battery bank (there are some industrial UPS systems, and such--but nothing I would call Solar RE solutions) out there.

    There are some folks that can use >6kW systems (home office/home shop/fabrication businesses/etc.)--But they are pretty rare as the equipment is expensive (NorthGuys' battery bank alone was probably in the 10-$12,000 range (more or less). That is a significant commitment to solar RE.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
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  • Blackcherry04
    Blackcherry04 Solar Expert Posts: 2,490 ✭✭✭
    #70
    Re: Trojan Industrial batteries not working

    I found this statement in a Trojan White Paper where they were they were comparing their Flat Plate technology vs Tubular. Since they talked about fork lifts wouldn't it apply to industrial batteries.
    Lab tests demonstrate that full performance of the flat plate battery was achieved when the end of charge voltage reached an average 2.58 volts per cell.

    61.92 Volts ending absorb voltage is a heck of a long way from what been said in their other literature. Chris Olsen has posted several times about using it.

    http://www.trojanbattery.com/pdf/wp_comparisontechnologies_0612.pdf
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  • vtmaps
    vtmaps Solar Expert Posts: 3,741 ✭✭✭✭
    #71
    Re: Trojan Industrial batteries not working
    NorthGuy wrote: »
    However, look at this thread (also involving Trojan batteries):
    Surfpath wrote:
    My 5.5 hour charge process usually involves a 5 hour absorb, but this only brings up SOC to 1.260. I don't get to the 1.277 that Trojan recommends, mainly because I don't have the time to monitor the genny for longer than 5-6 hours.

    5 hours of absorption on batteries that are hardly ever discharged (only 0.5 hours of bulk) still don't get the electrolyte stirred up!

    If I recall correctly, Surfpath's absorb voltage was a bit too low. Higher voltages encourage gassing and speed up the time in absorb. --vtMaps
    4 X 235watt Samsung, Midnite ePanel, Outback VFX3524 FM60 & mate, 4 Interstate L16, trimetric, Honda eu2000i
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  • NorthGuy
    NorthGuy Solar Expert Posts: 1,913 ✭✭
    #72
    Re: Trojan Industrial batteries not working
    BB. wrote: »
    The issue is for any bank that is over ~1,000 AH, you are looking at 50-130-250 amps of charging current (5%-13%-25% rate of charge rules of thumbs)... Above 60-100 amps, the support equipment (chargers) and the wiring (cables+breakers+fusing) gets to be difficult to find (in solar RE at least) and expensive.

    I understand this issue. Big banks will have charging problems.

    But, the issue that I'm heaving is different. The problem is that I need to devote tremendious amount of time to stirr up electrolyte. During this time, I cannot use the power stored in batteries, so I need to have a reliable source of energy big enough to supply all loads and at the same time provide small energy to batteries. I simply cannot do that. And other people who have similarly designed batteries are having these problems too, may be not that pronounced as mine.

    This issue doesn't depend on the size of the bank. If I had only one battery (of the same sort), I would have the same problem.
    Cariboocoot wrote: »
    What would be an interesting (and expensive) experiment would be to compare side-by-side large capacity in tall case vs. large capacity in standard case batteries (with the resultant extra wiring) and see which performed better in terms of recharging to full SG after like discharge.

    How do we get a government grant for that? :D

    I bet that small capacity batteries, such as T-105, will fare much better here and will require much shorter absorption times. I asked people in a different thread, and it appears that heavier batteries require longer absorption. Although, Vic is very happy with his Surrettes in that regard despite his batteries are the highest capacity of all, and also very tall. Trojans RE, even when in smaller size, such as L-16, still seem to have the stirring problem. So, probably, shape and size doesn't explain everything, and other design considerations are important too. May be large capacity Surrettes are Ok because they were on the RE market for the long time and ajusted their design to allow faster stirring.

    When I designed my system, I excluded cheap golf cart batteries because they only last 2-3 years. But now, I think that if they do have better stirring characteristics, it would be possible for me to take much better care of them - regularly take them to full charge, keep them cool, and also save some energy on stirring. Under better care, they could survive longer, perhaps 4-5 years. It's also easy to replace a dead battery because the replacement is easily available.

    In contrast, Trojan IND batteries (at least mine) require a lot of time and energy to stirr the electrolyte. And even if I do my best at stirring, they still don't get completely stirred. This probably will shorten their life by a lot, so instead of 13 years promised by the cycle life chart, I may get no more than 8-10. That's the same as 2 generations of golf cart batteries. And for the money I paid for Trojans I could buy 3, if not 4, sets of golf cart batteries of the same capacity.
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  • NorthGuy
    NorthGuy Solar Expert Posts: 1,913 ✭✭
    #73
    Re: Trojan Industrial batteries not working
    vtmaps wrote: »
    If I recall correctly, Surfpath's absorb voltage was a bit too low. Higher voltages encourage gassing and speed up the time in absorb. --vtMaps

    vtMaps,

    I sincerely hope that higher absorption voltage will help Surfpath.

    I was at the same point two months ago with my absorption voltage at 57.6. I increased it to 58.8 hoping that that would fix everything, but it didn't make a bit of a difference.
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  • NorthGuy
    NorthGuy Solar Expert Posts: 1,913 ✭✭
    #74
    Re: Trojan Industrial batteries not working
    Blackcherry04 wrote: »
    I found this statement in a Trojan White Paper where they were they were comparing their Flat Plate technology vs Tubular. Since they talked about fork lifts wouldn't it apply to industrial batteries.

    61.92 Volts ending absorb voltage is a heck of a long way from what been said in their other literature. Chris Olsen has posted several times about using it.

    Thank you BlackCherry.

    That is an interesting information, and I think it's worth bringing the whole citation from this document:
    Lab tests demonstrate
    that full performance of the flat plate battery was achieved when the end
    of charge voltage reached an average 2.58 volts per cell. Whereas in the
    tubular plate battery, the end-of-charge voltage had to reach 2.68 volts per
    cell, in order to achieve optimum performance. This higher over-voltage
    potential in the tubular plate battery, coupled with higher current flow,
    generally results in a greater rate of corrosion to the lead alloy comb and
    increased water loss from the electrolyte solution.

    If what I have are indeed fork lift batteries (or similar) then going to these voltages, which, in my case, are 62 for flat and 64 for flat, could be normal for my batteries. If I didn't know what are recommended absorption voltages and would tried to determine what they are, I would probably land in the 62-64V range, or may be even higher than that.

    I asked Chris Olson, and he described his situation. He had specified voltages similar to mine. He had sympthoms very similar to mine. He called Surrette, and they told him that he had lead-calcium batteries, which require 62V absorption. He still uses 62V and it works fine. I was about to do the same. I asked Trojan support specialist what is the highest voltage I can go with. He asked two engineers, and he told me that both engineers thought it would be 59.6, but he personally thought that I can go to 60. 60 didn't make any difference. I bet that 64 (or may be even 62) would.

    It's interesting logic in the citation above. I think that they're talking about final stage constant current charging. At this stage, forklift charger pushes constant current (usually 3-5% of capacity) until voltage stops rising. Flat batteries go to 2.58, but tubular go to 2.68. Since this is a constant current phase, in both cases current is obviously the same, yet they say that tubular batteries are prone to corrosion due to "higher current flow". IMHO, this statement lacks credibility.
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  • NorthGuy
    NorthGuy Solar Expert Posts: 1,913 ✭✭
    #75
    Re: Trojan Industrial batteries not working

    Another interesting quote from the BlsckCherry's document:
    Laboratory tests confirm that water consumption in the tubular plate
    battery was significantly greater than in the Trojan flat plate battery - almost
    twice as much over the battery’s life.

    Looks like low water consumpton is one of their design critera.

    That's could be one of the reason why my battery do not consume enough water and why I have all these troubles with bubbling and stirring. Forklifts are always in motion, which contributes to electrolyte stirring. For such batteries, why not to decrease water consumption by reducing bubbling? Everything is opposite in RE.

    That convinces me even more that IND batteries are plain forklift batteries masquearaded as an advanced RE product.
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  • Blackcherry04
    Blackcherry04 Solar Expert Posts: 2,490 ✭✭✭
    #76
    Re: Trojan Industrial batteries not working

    I was studying some patent information on the different types separators and their function. There is more than meets the eye to them and they have a big effect. The type that serve as " Air Lifts " where they actually capture the bubbles and create a pumping action that moves the electrolyte from the bottom to the top in a stirring action would seem like natural in a tall case battery. That would be a passive system and wouldn't require anything.

    I'd be tempted if were me to take a big swing at them and see what you get then back off if you need to. I know your trying to return them and I understand why, I would myself. I can't see where you be in any worse shape then doing that 10 hour EQ, to up your Absorb to 61-62 volts and let them roll.

    I forget if you actually got the charging voltage down on the Battery posts to see if it matched your settings. We feel your pain brother.
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  • westbranch
    westbranch Solar Expert Posts: 5,183 ✭✭✭✭
    #77
    Re: Trojan Industrial batteries not working

    NG, here is a doc that may shed some light on what you are experiencing with charge rate and temp rise and H2O use. Pages +- 17 re Temp rise at different rates may apply.

    HTH

    http://www.cdtechno.com/pdf/ref/41_2128_0212.pdf
     
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  • ChrisOlson
    ChrisOlson Banned Posts: 1,807 ✭✭
    #78
    Re: Trojan Industrial batteries not working
    NorthGuy wrote: »
    The problem is with that full charge. Seems to take prohibitively long. I found a document where Trojan compares these batteries to Surrettes in multi-month experiment. I that experiment they were charging for 16 hours daily

    I didn't read this long and distinguished thread all the way to the end. But your problem with your Trojan batteries is identical to the problem I had with my brand new Surrette bank when we got it.

    Only difference between Trojan and Surrette is getting Trojan to tell you to crank absorb up to 62 volts to mix up those tall case batteries in a reasonable amount of time. I spent over a month equalizing my bank every time I had enough power to do it to get them to 1.255.

    Been real happy with them other than the gawd awful absorb voltage. We do NOT baby our bank - it gets the snot worked out of it at about 30 kWh/day. But it comes back for more every single time and as long as we get them thru a 3 hour absorb at 62 volts once a week they come right back to 1.255-1.260. Using the recommended voltages in the manual wouldn't even get them above 1.220-1.230. The guy at Surrette was pretty nonchalant about the whole thing when I told them I can't absorb batteries for 15-20 hours - "Oh - just crank up the absorb to 62 then - they got lead/calcium grids and need the higher voltage anyway." They could've put that in the manual. LOL!
    --
    Chris
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  • Blackcherry04
    Blackcherry04 Solar Expert Posts: 2,490 ✭✭✭
    #79
    Re: Trojan Industrial batteries not working

    Thank You Chris, it's always good for members to see someone who wakes up and has to put back 300-500 Amp hrs a day into their Bank. It keeps the RE issues and being Off- Grid in Real Life perspective.
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  • ChrisOlson
    ChrisOlson Banned Posts: 1,807 ✭✭
    #80
    Re: Trojan Industrial batteries not working

    The thing is, I think the OP's batteries are fine. He probably has the same type of batteries I got. And they are tougher than whale snot and will easily handle prolonged periods of being discharged as long as you charge them often enough to fully desulfate them. But with batteries under warranty it is probably necessary to get the "OK" from Trojan, like I got from Surrette, to crank that absorb voltage up. And it makes sense - a 3 hour absorb at 62 is a heck of a lot easier on the batteries than prolonged equalizing to get their SG's up due to being chronically deficit charged.

    In the RE world we do not have these constant current chargers that they use in the industrial world. So you have to get a tech support person on the phone that understands that and gives the right recommendation, that still keeps your warranty valid, but treats the batteries right.

    Our batteries handle "abuse" that the typical Trojan L-16 will not take because they are special application batteries designed for prolonged periods of discharge. But that has some advantages in that not having to run that 85-100% SOC charging on a regular basis makes them more efficient for amp-hours in vs amp-hours out - and they use way less water that way. I was ready to give up on them when we first got them, after the first two weeks of equalizing and trying to get the SG up. But after we got them "tuned" they perform so awesome that I would have to be stupid to complain. At just about two years old, the last time I fully serviced them, they have zero reduction in capacity from new specs on a load test. And there are few batteries that will do that - making them worth the extra money we paid for them.
    --
    Chris
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  • Blackcherry04
    Blackcherry04 Solar Expert Posts: 2,490 ✭✭✭
    #81
    Re: Trojan Industrial batteries not working

    It's great you found the answer to your system. Sometimes these threads leave you scratching your head, when some systems have the same basic setup and equipment you have and they have No issues , works perfect, never a problem and six months later you find out that the system that you admired was one that is only cycled 5-10% dod. I'd never have a issue if mine was used like that.

    I just replaced a Optima Yellow top battery that worked flawlessly for the last 9 years, it was in a Sports Car that I only start once or twice a year, it stayed in permanent float.
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  • NorthGuy
    NorthGuy Solar Expert Posts: 1,913 ✭✭
    #82
    Re: Trojan Industrial batteries not working
    westbranch wrote: »
    NG, here is a doc that may shed some light on what you are experiencing with charge rate and temp rise and H2O use. Pages +- 17 re Temp rise at different rates may apply.

    Thank you.

    When they discuss charge rates, they only seem to be concerned about heat and gassing. Looks like my heating is rather on the low side, meaning that the internal resistance is low, which is good. I've never got temperature increases more than 10C. The worst I had during my charging is 7C. Gassing is bad for them, but good for me. Looks like I do have a room for voltage increases.
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  • NorthGuy
    NorthGuy Solar Expert Posts: 1,913 ✭✭
    #83
    Re: Trojan Industrial batteries not working
    ChrisOlson wrote: »
    But your problem with your Trojan batteries is identical to the problem I had with my brand new Surrette bank when we got it.

    Yes, the similarity is striking. You had exactly the same sympthoms as I'am having now. Looks like we have the same sort of batteries.
    ChrisOlson wrote: »
    In the RE world we do not have these constant current chargers that they use in the industrial world. So you have to get a tech support person on the phone that understands that and gives the right recommendation, that still keeps your warranty valid, but treats the batteries right.

    I guess that is easier with Surrette than with Trojan. Although, Trojan's warranty may be something that is not worth worrying about. I've read conditions on their Web site, and if I needed to exchange batteries under warranty I would have to ship them to Trojan, wait for Trojan to test them and ship back the replacement. I would have to pay for shipping back and forth and for testing (who knows how much). And what would I do during the wait time? I cannot sit without power for three months. So, I may decide to go with higher voltages without their blessing.
    ChrisOlson wrote: »
    Been real happy with them other than the gawd awful absorb voltage. We do NOT baby our bank - it gets the snot worked out of it at about 30 kWh/day.

    I tested my bank and except for the absorption problem they seem to be very good. I can discharge them 70% DOD and they still can hold over 3kW (about 10% of C20) load. While being discharged, they hold voltage very well. They do not overheat. They appear to have full capacity. If higher absorption voltage solved the charging problem, I would be very happy with them.

    I now started a test - will cycle them with sun only and will do bulk only charges if the sun is not enough. We still have about 6kWh/day of loads that are going to be eliminated next winter, so it'll be a really good test. After about a week, I'll do a full charge. I'll see what Trojan says during that week. If nothing new, I'll probably try higher absorption voltage to see if it restores SG after weekly cycling.
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  • Blackcherry04
    Blackcherry04 Solar Expert Posts: 2,490 ✭✭✭
    #84
    Re: Trojan Industrial batteries not working

    NorthGuy, I am posting this for you, I had forgotten all about it. I had a e-mail from Interstate Battery's Engineering department and it confirmed what Chris has posted. Look at the Absorb voltage they recommend for their Industrial Batteries.

    Attachment not found.
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  • SolarMusher
    SolarMusher Solar Expert Posts: 176 ✭✭✭
    #85
    Re: Trojan Industrial batteries not working

    Hi BC,
    How could Bulk be so different than Absorb?
    I have 16x Interstate 435Ah L16 since 5 years and have never found these settings very serious.
    I'm running this bank at 59.2V/52.8V.
    I'm not sure they will last two years more, definitively not my next batteries...
    Could be wrong...
    Erik
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  • ChrisOlson
    ChrisOlson Banned Posts: 1,807 ✭✭
    #86
    Re: Trojan Industrial batteries not working

    Because they use an industrial constant-current charger, which is not like anything in the RE world, and their specs are designed around that charger's algorithm. Surrette does the same thing.
    --
    Chris
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  • Blackcherry04
    Blackcherry04 Solar Expert Posts: 2,490 ✭✭✭
    #87
    Re: Trojan Industrial batteries not working
    SolarMusher wrote: »
    Hi BC,
    How could Bulk be so different than Absorb?
    I have 16x Interstate 435Ah L16 since 5 years and have never found these settings very serious.
    I'm running this bank at 59.2V/52.8V.
    I'm not sure they will last two years more, definitively not my next batteries...
    Could be wrong...
    Erik
    That was my question to them, is it a misprint ?? They said, no it's the voltage that is required to bring the SG up to full. I asked where I would find a charger with that algorithm, they said a commercial charger. We just do not have those kind's of profiles in our equipment.

    I posted the e-mail in here, I just can't find it. You can do the same thing manually with EQ voltage. You are using years as you measuring stick, they use capacity.
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  • ChrisOlson
    ChrisOlson Banned Posts: 1,807 ✭✭
    #88
    Re: Trojan Industrial batteries not working

    They use totally different algorithm in industrial or forklift/traction battery chargers. They are constant current (bulk) - constant voltage (absorb) - constant current (finish stage), and they do not float the battery at the end.

    It is not like anything seen in the RE world, but the batteries are designed around the specs used with the industrial type constant current chargers, NOT our RE chargers.
    --
    Chris
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  • NorthGuy
    NorthGuy Solar Expert Posts: 1,913 ✭✭
    #89
    Re: Trojan Industrial batteries not working
    Blackcherry04 wrote: »
    NorthGuy, I am posting this for you, I had forgotten all about it. I had a e-mail from Interstate Battery's Engineering department and it confirmed what Chris has posted. Look at the Absorb voltage they recommend for their Industrial Batteries.

    Thank you BlackCherry.

    I've done a lot of reading and I couldn't find any reference to any direct harm that could be done by higher absorption voltages. All I've got is this:

    - Active material shedding. This is caused by bubbles mechanically chipping off parts of active material
    - Corrosion. This is caused by oxygen from the bubbles or by plates exposed to air
    - Loss of water, which may expose plates and cause corrosion
    - Heat, which can accelerate corrosion, or, in extreme cases, plate warping.

    Looks to me that all the negative effects are happening because of the bubbling, not because of the high voltage per se. If you have a high voltage, but very little bubbling, you will not get these negative effects. And vice-versa, if you have low voltage, but too much bubbling, you'll be getting all these negatives. You can vary the voltage to regulate the level of the bubbling.

    There's some direct evidence that higher voltage is in fact beneficial for battery life. Chris says his batteries haven't lost any capacity in two years.

    So, it is entirely possible that higher absorption voltages could benefit all batteries, because higher voltages eliminate stratificaton and produce fuller charge to the batteries reducing sulphation.

    The batteries were first used in cars. Water loss would be really bad for car batteries. Heat is also a problem because of hot engine nearby. Stirring, however, is not a problem at all because the battery only charges when the engine is on, and even if the car is not in motion there's always some vibration to help stirring. So, they tried to eliminate bubbling completely. They did this by setting voltage limit at or just below gassing voltage. Hence the constant voltage absorption stage at relatively low voltage. Can't find the reference where I've read this. Sorry.

    The situation is reversed in RE. Here you need to stirr electrolyte. If higher absorption voltages are not harmful they can be used to stirr electrolyte faster and better and to charge batteries fuller and/or faster. This is especially true for hard-plated batteries and batteries that have protective layers around active material because such batteries can resist shedding and corrosion.
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  • Blackcherry04
    Blackcherry04 Solar Expert Posts: 2,490 ✭✭✭
    #90
    Re: Trojan Industrial batteries not working
    NorthGuy wrote: »
    Thank you BlackCherry.

    Looks to me that all the negative effects are happening because of the bubbling, not because of the high voltage per se. If you have a high voltage, but very little bubbling, you will not get these negative effects. And vice-versa, if you have low voltage, but too much bubbling, you'll be getting all these negatives. You can vary the voltage to regulate the level of the bubbling.
    I can take a set 4 batteries and have them in absorb at 14.6 on my power supply and crank it up to 16 Volts, it's like a afterburner kicking in on a jet. There is such a sound distinction when they are in full EQ it's hard to miss. To me if you stay to long at some in between voltage your wasting you time and doing more harm than getting the voltage up there and getting the job done. I don't see the heat rise when I do it that way either.

    I do use the actual battery voltage as low on the post as I can get it with a DVM. Some batteries will take 16.5 volts on the power supply to give me 15.5 at the battery. As the battery starts to absorb more , I'll cut it back if necessary, cause it will change as more capacity on the plates open up.
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  • SolarMusher
    SolarMusher Solar Expert Posts: 176 ✭✭✭
    #91
    Re: Trojan Industrial batteries not working
    They use totally different algorithm in industrial or forklift/traction battery chargers. They are constant current (bulk) - constant voltage (absorb) - constant current (finish stage), and they do not float the battery at the end.
    Hi Chris,
    So why did they point out bulk mode in Voltage? It doesn't make sense to have a bulk setpoint at 57.6V and an absorb setpoint at 62V.
    What are your absorb settings with you Rolls batteries?
    Erik
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