Trojan Industrial batteries not working
Comments
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Re: Trojan Industrial batteries not workingLooks to me that all the negative effects are happening because of the bubbling, not because of the high voltage per se. If you have a high voltage, but very little bubbling, you will not get these negative effects
That's the other thing I was going to ask you, NorthGuy - about how much bubbling and gassing you get at (what is currently) EQ voltage? My batteries don't bubble hardly at all at the "normal" 58 volts. At 58, looking in the cells, there's a bubble now and then but you can't hear the battery "boiling". At 62 they bubble nicely, just like any other battery and you can hear them doing their bubbling. That, to my way of thinking, is another sign that in order to get the absorb done in the time that RE systems can do it in, you need to use the higher voltage with the style batteries you got.
I really don't think your batteries have any problem. A $10 bill says they are lead-calcium grid just like mine. And lead-calcium grid batteries have been known to run fine for 20 years because the plates are harder and less prone to "shedding" like softer more porous lead-antimony grid batteries are. I have a friend in Canada that found some old 2V lead-calcium grid 1300 ah cells in the junk yard - thrown away because a telco replaced them. He got them for about $500 and lugged the 300 lb cells home. There were a couple that were no good. But he put 12 of them on his 24V system and boiled them for several days at 32 volts with the generator. He has been using those junkyard batteries for 8 years now, and still no sign of them dying - using a 32V absorb charge setting on his FlexMax solar controllers.
Automotive batteries typically use lead-calcium grids, but they are thin with usually cheap separators. I think these industrial and marine lead-calcium batteries with heavy grids are probably one of the toughest lead-acid batteries known to man - as long as you realize that they require higher charging voltages and don't kill them by sulfating them. My batteries are T12-250's - six cell 12V type - and NOWHERE in any manuals did it mention them being lead-calcium grid. But they are designed for heavy duty marine applications for (usually) house power in large cabin cruisers and yachts. And that is an application where lead-calcium grids will be used, with special separators, because they can take the pounding, vibration and abuse encountered in marine applications on rough water.
I believe Interstate makes a replacement battery for the T12-250 and we have the Interstate version of that battery in our boat. The shore charger in the boat charges that battery bank at 15.5 volts during the absorb stage and it doesn't float them - just like an industrial charger doesn't. It has green lights on it that blink that show the boat's house power bank is fully charged, and it won't recharge them again unless they drop below 12.2 volts.
It might be all anecdotal. But I do not think you have the "normal" RE batteries like everybody here is used to. It think they're of the same breed as mine, which is a horse of a different color. But I have gotten used to them I'm impressed because they don't lose capacity with age like "normal" batteries do - and they do NOT heat excessively charging at the higher voltages. I'm lucky if I can get 3°C rise in temp from them during a 3 hour absorb at 62.0 volts. They never use a single drop of water in the winter. I only have to add water during the summer months when they'll run at 90+ degrees. But then the temp compensation lowers the charging voltages anyway so they don't charge at 62.0 volts when they're above 75F.
That's my 2 cents on it.
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Chris -
Re: Trojan Industrial batteries not workingSolarMusher wrote: »Hi Chris,
So why did they point out bulk mode in Voltage? It doesn't make sense to have a bulk setpoint at 57.6V and an absorb setpoint at 62V.
What are your absorb settings with you Rolls batteries?
Erik
62.0 volts for absorb - minimum 3 hours.
The industrial chargers like used in forklifts and such do a constant current bulk charge until the voltage reaches the bulk voltage spec. Then they jump current up to the absorb voltage and maintain the constant voltage stage. An RE charger doesn't do that. It just keeps charging at bulk - max amps - until it gets to absorb where it starts tapering off.
The other difference is that the RE chargers float batteries - the industrial ones don't. The industrial chargers got a "finish" stage where they take the battery up to EQ voltage for a set time after absorb, then shut off and don't float. The finish stage on an industrial type charger will take the batteries up to 2.7 VPC.
All of Surrette's specs are designed around those industrial type chargers - NOT the chargers in our RE equipment. I was told that, and somebody else here once posted something about it. After I read that posting I checked into it, and it is fact.
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Chris -
Re: Trojan Industrial batteries not working
It is indeed a fact. The battery industry has only recently got into designing batteries specifically for RE purposes, and they haven't really 'caught up' yet on the specs. In the interim everyone has been using such deep cycle batteries as are available and adapting the charge parameters to suit RE. Since solar doesn't start the day with full current available it's pretty much impossible to have a constant current charge to begin with. So we are stuck with ramping up current and Voltage as available, then switching to the steady Voltage state. And as the charging is integral to operation, then holding Float for as long as possible. Quite a bit different from the charge-then-use specs the battery companies are used to dealing with.
It's not always perfect, but what is? -
Re: Trojan Industrial batteries not workingChrisOlson wrote: »That's the other thing I was going to ask you, NorthGuy - about how much bubbling and gassing you get at (what is currently) EQ voltage? My batteries don't bubble hardly at all at the "normal" 58 volts. At 58, looking in the cells, there's a bubble now and then but you can't hear the battery "boiling". At 62 they bubble nicely, just like any other battery and you can hear them doing their bubbling.
At 58 there are single bubbles here and there, at 60 it's about the same. At 62 I see them going at a rate of 1-2 bubbles per second, which, for 2 feet tall plates, is not that much. At 64 they look like they're slowly boiling. So, mine are even slightly less bubbly than yours.ChrisOlson wrote: »A $10 bill says they are lead-calcium grid just like mine. And lead-calcium grid batteries have been known to run fine for 20 years because the plates are harder and less prone to "shedding" like softer more porous lead-antimony grid batteries are.
I cannot find the reference, but I do remember that somewhere I've read that they have "harder, corrosion-resistent" plates. Could be because of calcium, or could be something else having a similar effect. Somewhere else, they said that the plates are very hard in the beginning, but then they soften a bit after 200 cycles.ChrisOlson wrote: »they do NOT heat excessively charging at the higher voltages. I'm lucky if I can get 3°C rise in temp from them during a 3 hour absorb at 62.0 volts. They never use a single drop of water in the winter. I only have to add water during the summer months when they'll run at 90+ degrees. But then the temp compensation lowers the charging voltages anyway so they don't charge at 62.0 volts when they're above 75F.
That sounds like mine. They do not heat at higher voltages. And they don't use much water. After all my experiments and endless equalizations the water level in the cells dropped somewhere between 1/2 and 5/8. That's about 0.7l loss out of total electrolyte volume of 7.7l (my guess).
What's the temperature of your batteries in winter? Do you keep them in a heated place? -
Re: Trojan Industrial batteries not working
Yeah, that's why they have scrubbed their sites of all the useful Information they use to have available, keep the customers Guessing.Cariboocoot wrote: »It is indeed a fact. The battery industry has only recently got into designing batteries specifically for RE purposes, and they haven't really 'caught up' yet on the specs. In the interim everyone has been using such deep cycle batteries as are available and adapting the charge parameters to suit RE. Since solar doesn't start the day with full current available it's pretty much impossible to have a constant current charge to begin with. So we are stuck with ramping up current and Voltage as available, then switching to the steady Voltage state. And as the charging is integral to operation, then holding Float for as long as possible. Quite a bit different from the charge-then-use specs the battery companies are used to dealing with.
It's not always perfect, but what is?
A lot of this is Model Specific also, Just because you have Surrette, Trojan or whatever doesn't mean it fits what you should be doing to yours. Your DOD will have a big effect as to what you can get away with. Battery Height seems have a huge effect how they charge. -
Re: Trojan Industrial batteries not workingBlackcherry04 wrote: »Yeah, that's why they have scrubbed their sites of all the useful Information they use to have available, keep the customers Guessing.
I kinda think sometimes they are guessing as well.
A lot of this is Model Specific also, Just because you have Surrette, Trojan or whatever doesn't mean it fits what you should be doing to yours. Your DOD will have a big effect as to what you can get away with. Battery Height seems have a huge effect how they charge.
All too true.
It never ceases to amaze me when people pick a product (of any sort) that is clearly not designed for the application, use it anyway, and then complain about how it doesn't work very well.
Lots of people (understandably so) would like RE to be just A +B = Power. If only it were that easy. We try to come up with rules-of-thumb that will give a shortcut to viable system design, but there are just so many variables that they can not be considered absolutes. Batteries are one of the biggest variables of all. -
Re: Trojan Industrial batteries not working
When we talk about RE equipment makers, I do think they realize some of the shortcomings of their designs and equipment. I think that we overlook some of what they tell us. Here is a example from the OutBack Instruction Manual for the FX inverter series. Anyone beside me just blow it off as if it didn't mater a dozen times ?? if you asked me, I'd say it wasn't in there, but it is.In order to make sure the batteries stay healthy, they must never be discharged too much and should be regularly charged back to near-full capacity. (Full capacity is only achieved by equalizing the batteries. Check with the battery manufacturer to see how often your batteries should be equalized.)
Bottom line, they know that their 3 stage charge regimen won't charge a battery back to 100% and they are telling you. -
Re: Trojan Industrial batteries not workingBlackcherry04 wrote: »When we talk about RE equipment makers, I do think they realize some of the shortcomings of their designs and equipment. I think that we overlook some of what they tell us. Here is a example from the OutBack Instruction Manual for the FX inverter series. Anyone beside me just blow it off as if it didn't mater a dozen times ?? if you asked me, I'd say it wasn't in there, but it is.
Bottom line, they know that their 3 stage charge regimen won't charge a battery back to 100% and they are telling you.
Yes, and we know it too. Again "check with the battery manufacturer" jumps up and bites you. Sometimes they don't know what equalization should be, or can't give a firm answer. I think this is why Trojan, Surrette, and Interstate all have high Absorb Voltages. Meanwhile Trojan recommends "as needed" EQ and the other two "regular" EQ.
In the end it comes down to extending battery life, which is also unpredictable even under ideal conditions. All told, more expensive batteries are not necessarily better batteries for just this reason; the charge regime is unlikely to be what they were designed for. -
Re: Trojan Industrial batteries not workingBlackcherry04 wrote: »Sometimes these threads leave you scratching your head, when some systems have the same basic setup and equipment you have and they have No issues , works perfect, never a problem and six months later you find out that the system that you admired was one that is only cycled 5-10% dod. I'd never have a issue if mine was used like that.
That's right. I looked at the records of my charging, and I found out that I did try very shallow cycles. My batteries didn't have any problem with 6% DOD. After rechage, SG was just 0.005 less than the high. -
Re: Trojan Industrial batteries not workingCariboocoot wrote: »In the end it comes down to extending battery life, which is also unpredictable even under ideal conditions. All told, more expensive batteries are not necessarily better batteries for just this reason; the charge regime is unlikely to be what they were designed for.
And it's also hard to tell what exactly batteries are designed for. For example, " ... ideal for use in large off-grid photovoltaic (PV) systems, off-grid hybrid PV systems, grid-tied PV systems with battery backup." What's that supposed to mean? Batteries in off-grid system are constantly cycled and may not be fully charged for several days. In grid-tie backup system they sit on float most of the time. I would guess whatever is ideal for off-grid would not be ideal for grid-tie, and vice versa. It's impossible to tell what charging regime they were designed for. -
Re: Trojan Industrial batteries not working
Hey Chris,ChrisOlson wrote: »62.0 volts for absorb - minimum 3 hours.
The industrial chargers like used in forklifts and such do a constant current bulk charge until the voltage reaches the bulk voltage spec. Then they jump current up to the absorb voltage and maintain the constant voltage stage. An RE charger doesn't do that. It just keeps charging at bulk - max amps - until it gets to absorb where it starts tapering off.
The other difference is that the RE chargers float batteries - the industrial ones don't. The industrial chargers got a "finish" stage where they take the battery up to EQ voltage for a set time after absorb, then shut off and don't float. The finish stage on an industrial type charger will take the batteries up to 2.7 VPC.
All of Surrette's specs are designed around those industrial type chargers - NOT the chargers in our RE equipment. I was told that, and somebody else here once posted something about it. After I read that posting I checked into it, and it is fact.
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Chris
As always, your explanations were perfect.
Don't you need to water level these batteries too often at 62V daily?
Another concern would be DC fridge and freezer in winter which are 31.5/63V max, when cold (6-7°c/batt) a temp comp CC could charge up to 63/64V, any thought?
Thanks Marc and Chris
Erik -
Re: Trojan Industrial batteries not workingAnd it's also hard to tell what exactly batteries are designed for. For example, " ... ideal for use in large off-grid photovoltaic (PV) systems, off-grid hybrid PV systems, grid-tied PV systems with battery backup." What's that supposed to mean? Batteries in off-grid system are constantly cycled and may not be fully charged for several days. In grid-tie backup system they sit on float most of the time. I would guess whatever is ideal for off-grid would not be ideal for grid-tie, and vice versa. It's impossible to tell what charging regime they were designed for.
This is because the batteries are designed by the engineering department, but sold by the marketing department. It's amazing how many products are touted as "ideal" for so many applications. Until you look at the technical specs (if you can find them). -
Re: Trojan Industrial batteries not workingWhat's the temperature of your batteries in winter? Do you keep them in a heated place?
Yes, they are heated. We have an insulated battery case in the utility room, made of plywood and insulated with foam. The utility room itself is not heated but it's very rare that it gets much below freezing in there. We have a small duct fan that blows air from the house living quarters into the battery case. So it keeps the batteries at 18-25 C in the winter time.
In the summer I take the insulation and plywood sides off the battery case and just leave them free-air cool because they do get 3-5 C warmer than ambient temperature during bulk and absorb in the summer.
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Chris -
Re: Trojan Industrial batteries not working
When listening to the batteries during equalization, I can hear a sound of big bubbles coming up now and then, as if someone would breath out under the water.
Is that usual for batteries? -
Re: Trojan Industrial batteries not working
It would be for the type I have ( GC-2's ) When they are in full bloom it a rushing fizzing sound. With tall batteries and a long path in the separators maybe they join together on the trip to the surface unless they are entrapping themselves and then releasing in bulk. In my batteries that would be a bad thing and is usually a sign of sulfation entrapment. Your's have to travel 3 times farther.When listening to the batteries during equalization, I can hear a sound of big bubbles coming up now and then, as if someone would breath out under the water.
Is that usual for batteries? -
Re: Trojan Industrial batteries not workingWhen listening to the batteries during equalization, I can hear a sound of big bubbles coming up now and then, as if someone would breath out under the water.
Is that usual for batteries?
Ours actually do that during the absorb stage - gluggle - gluggle - gluggle. During equalization they seem to boil pretty even.
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Chris -
Re: Trojan Industrial batteries not workingChrisOlson wrote: »Ours actually do that during the absorb stage - gluggle - gluggle - gluggle. During equalization they seem to boil pretty even.
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Chris
The TALL Surrettes in use here do pretty much as Chris notes, BUT, when the EQ voltage is reached (usually about 62.4-ish V) they really FIZZZZzzzzzzz. EQ Fizzing sounds about like fresh Mineral Water (carbonated) poured quickly into a container from a glass, where the pour rate is quick. Lotsa very small bubbles, not the gurgleing of large bubbles.
It would be my guess that the plate envelopes used on Deep Cycle batteries would impeade escaping gas much more than would the effects of Sulphation. VicOff Grid - Two systems -- 4 SW+ 5548 Inverters, Surrette 4KS25 1280 AH X2@48V, 11.1 KW STC PV, 4X MidNite Classic 150 w/ WBjrs, Beta KID on S-530s, MX-60s, MN Bkrs/Boxes. 25 KVA Polyphase Kubota diesel, Honda Eu6500isa, Eu3000is-es, Eu2000, Eu1000 gensets. Thanks Wind-Sun for this great Forum. -
Re: Trojan Industrial batteries not workingChrisOlson wrote: »Ours actually do that during the absorb stage - gluggle - gluggle - gluggle. During equalization they seem to boil pretty even.
Thanks Chris.
One men's absorption is other men's equalization
At what voltage do you equalize? -
Re: Trojan Industrial batteries not workingThe TALL Surrettes in use here do pretty much as Chris notes, BUT, when the EQ voltage is reached (usually about 62.4-ish V) they really FIZZZZzzzzzzz. EQ Fizzing sounds about like fresh Mineral Water (carbonated) poured quickly into a container from a glass, where the pour rate is quick. Lotsa very small bubbles, not the gurgleing of large bubbles.
Vic, looks like my batteries need higher voltage for everything. My charger only allows 64, and it's not enough to cause Fizzing. I remember seeing and hearing fizzing when anodizing aluminum - this also involves suplhuric acid (but weaker than in batteries), but much higher current density. I don't see that on my batteries.
At 64V I do get lots of smaller bubbles and "gluggles" from time to time. I do get "gluggles" at lower voltages too. Looks like it's nothing bad about them. -
Re: Trojan Industrial batteries not workingAt what voltage do you equalize?
Max = 64.0 volts. It's all the inverter will do. But frankly, I need to qualify that. I don't do maintenance EQ's anymore with my high absorb voltage. They're not necessary to do because the cells never get out of whack.
What I do with the EQ setting in the controllers and inverter is use it to sometimes "cheat". We have one of these little meters on the wall in the kitchen by the inverter control panel:
Attachment not found.
I don't pay much attention to the Battery SOC part because it's just a visual digital voltmeter. The bank is really at about 60% SOC right now even though the meter shows what my wife calls "Yellow 40". "Yellow 40" is about 48.4 or 48.5 volts and we have like 12-14 amps load on right now, so it's just voltage sag from the load that's causing it to be at "Yellow 40".
What I pay attention to is the little green light on the left. If I see that go yellow it means the bank hasn't been absorbed in a week. But I'll ignore that anyway for about three more days to see if the system takes care of itself. 95% of the time it does. But if it goes 10 days and that light is still yellow I'll "cheat" by manually starting the generator, get the bank thru absorb, then press the EQ buttons on the inverter, solar and wind turbines (my Classics are all networked so they all follow the same charge stage).
I have absorb set at 62.0 and the EQ set at 62.1. The EQ time is 2 hours. So really what it does is give the bank a nice long absorb time, which makes that light on the meter in the kitchen go green again, and when it's done the generator shuts off and the Classics go back to Float or Bulk, or whatever it is they do.
Those full voltage EQ's, to my way of thinking, are not necessary unless you are correcting a problem with cells out of whack on SG, or sulfated cells. My batteries have been doing perfectly fine for almost 2 years without ever doing a full voltage EQ.
Well, actually that 12-14 amps was not a problem. My wife now decided to do a System Load Test:
Attachment not found.
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Chris -
Re: Trojan Industrial batteries not working
Thank you Chris,
So, your normal absorptions are about 3 hours, but if you don't get any in 10 days, you do longer absorption 3 + 2 = 5 hours. But these long absorptions do not happen very often, but this lets you avoid equalizations altogether. This is a very clever use of resources. Probably only takes 10 to 20 hours of generator runs per year for all these extra absorptions. -
Re: Trojan Industrial batteries not working
That's basically right - and it only happens once in a blue moon, and mostly in the winter. So I would say an extra 20 hours or so of "equalization" time at the absorb voltage is about right for a year.
The thing with the EQ is that it is really only useful to recover batteries that have been chronically deficit charged (to desulfate them), or if SG's in the cells get out of whack. If the SG's stay even and the batteries don't lose capacity on a load test when I service them, I consider EQ to be unnecessary. That goes against "conventional wisdom", I guess, where maintaining batteries is concerned because you're supposed to do the maintenance EQ's every so often. But using a 62.0V absorb voltage has seemed to eliminate the need for it for going on two years now.
And, as I have probably mentioned before, we do not really "baby" our batteries. They get used, and used Big. But in reality we do not do that many complete charge cycles. They live most of their lives in the 50-80% SOC range. During a year's time they probably get a full absorb, just a rough guess, 100-130 times (they tend to get more absorb cycles in the summer when we get more solar and use less power). And they have remained perfectly happy with that (so far).
I am not going to advocate doing what we do because it is not the "normal", and how we treat our batteries is not proven because they are still fairly new and I don't know what we're going to get for life from them until they die. My goal is to get 7 years out of them, and they will cost us about $110/month if we do go the full seven years I hope to get. We are better than 25% of the way to that goal right now, and most batteries will already start to show signs of age at that point. Ours show no signs of age yet - they still load test with new specs when I service them (about three to four times per year). I only had problems with them in the first 3-4 months that we got them, and I know that if I had not become concerned with their low SG's early on that they would be dead today.
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Chris -
Re: Trojan Industrial batteries not working
Hi Chris
Are your Surrettes KS or CS type (tall single cells, or short bundled 6v or 8v units)? 62vdc is what I eq charge my CS plates at...20hr rate is 820ah. 100hr rate is 1120ah I think I recall. Even after eq charging my sg's are never all the same, and I don't think they could be. Maybe when brand new. How far apart do your cells vary?
Ralph -
Re: Trojan Industrial batteries not workingHi Chris
Are your Surrettes KS or CS type (tall single cells, or short bundled 6v or 8v units)? 62vdc is what I eq charge my CS plates at...20hr rate is 820ah. 100hr rate is 1120ah I think I recall. Even after eq charging my sg's are never all the same, and I don't think they could be. Maybe when brand new. How far apart do your cells vary?
They are tall case six cell 12V (T12-250), Series 4000. 20hr rate is 200ah (2.4 kWh/battery). 100 hr rate is 250 ah (3.0 kWh/battery). Target SG for them is 1.255 - 1.260 and I have never seen any cells outside that range when the bank is fully charged.
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Chris -
Re: Trojan Industrial batteries not workingEven after eq charging my sg's are never all the same, and I don't think they could be.
EQ charging, when required, should be done for as long as the relative SGs of the cells are changing significantly. (You can simplify the monitoring by using frequent cell-to-cell voltage comparisons supplemented with less frequent SG checks.) Once that mark has been met, any remaining SG differences may have several causes, including:
1. Different electrolyte levels in different cells, since you top them up by adding pure water. (This would have to be pretty extreme to make a major SG difference.)
2. Different amounts of sulphation in different cells. Possibly because of different history?
3. Some cells losing capacity from abuse like electrolyte level below top of plates.
4. Loss of actual electrolyte as droplets during extreme gassing.
5. Plate shedding or oxidation damage in some cells. (not particularly likely if not abused.)
6. Serious temperature differences between cells combined with incorrect temperature compensation of the SG measurement.
If the difference is small (e.g. close to the precision of the hydrometer) then it probably does not mean anything unless the differences stay consistent over many measurements. If the difference is large, then there is a reason, although it may not be an indicator of anything but unequal loss of cell capacity as the cells approach the end of their useful life.SMA SB 3000, old BP panels. -
Re: Trojan Industrial batteries not workingOnce that mark has been met, any remaining SG differences may have several causes, including: ...
I would also add measurment errors, at least 0.005, may be even 0.01. -
Re: Trojan Industrial batteries not workingI would also add measurment errors, at least 0.005, may be even 0.01.
"... unless the differences stay consistent over many measurements."SMA SB 3000, old BP panels. -
Re: Trojan Industrial batteries not working
So, Trojan didn't take the batteries back. I guess the problems that I'm experiencing are there by design. Should've got Surrettes instead, but it's too late now. Will have to figure out how to deal with the batteries that I have.
Since where I live the Sun doesn't shine for 24 hours a day, my only choice is to dramatically increase absorption voltage. This certainly may shorten battery life, but nothing else I can do.
So, I spent two weeks trying to model my off-grid living. It went rather well. I did two weekly re-charges with absorption voltage set to 64V. It was nearly enough to charge the batteries and stirr up electrolyte. After 4 hours of absorbtion at 64V, the SG moves to 1.245, which is within 0.015 of the full SG of 1.260. After 6 hours at 64V, the SG moves to 1.253, which is just 0.007 short of full. I'm pretty sure it would go a little bit higher if I continued, but I didn't.
It is feasible to me to get 4 hours in winter if I pre-charge with generator. If I want 6 hours, must be all generator (about 8 hours including bulk).
March through October, I should be able to complete bulk plus 4 hours of absorption from the Sun every sunny day, but 6 hours may be a problem.
What would be the best choice for me?
1) Go with 4 hour absorptions which are much easier to do, but only move the batteries to 1.245
2) Go with 6 hour absorptions which are hard to get, but move me to 1.253, which could be considered a complete charge -
Re: Trojan Industrial batteries not working
You seem so calm. I would be crazy if I did everything Trojan told me to do for months then in the end they say so sorry you’re on your own. In the mean while you could have charged with a higher voltage and longer absorb time preventing further damage to your batteries!!!
Find out what your max SG is and do what it takes to get close to it at least once/twice a week. What you have to do will depend on your usage but set your absorb V high and the time to max (if on solar). -
Re: Trojan Industrial batteries not working
I kind of agree with Jeff; battery correction should never involve months of mucking about and waiting for miracles to happen. If they don't start improving in a couple of charge cycles something is either wrong about the correction charging process being used or terminally wrong with the batteries. The longer it takes to fix such a problem the less likely it will actually be fixed.
In fairness to battery companies, let's remember not all Voltmeters read alike; sometimes a couple tenths (on 12 VDC - factor up for higher system Voltages) difference in a setting is enough to be important.
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