Biggest Baddest Battery EVER

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Earnest Tilley
Earnest Tilley Solar Expert Posts: 56 ✭✭✭✭
in Solar Beginners Corner #1
Ok im tired of playing around with my little rv/home napa batteries im ready to join the big boys. What is the biggest baddest most amp/hr battery i can buy commercial or home use? I forgot to cut my window unit off last night and it ran for about 3 hrs after dark then quit when i got up this morning my batteries where sitting at 12.5v. Ive decided to go 12v on my system because the longest run ill be doing is less than 3 feet. On the ac side ill be going 80ft max. I will be purchasing 4 more 85watt 12v panels in the really near future which will put me at 1020watts and i want to make sure that will be enough to run my window unit that pulls just over 600 watts 24/7 i will be purchasing another 60 amp charge controller for my 12v setup to make sure i dont go over 60 amps. Its mid summer here and i can run my window unit for about 7hrs each day without taking my batteries down to 12.5 after that it drops off quickly. I really want some batteries that will hold all the juice i can pump into them. My 4 rv/home deep cycle marine batteries charge up quick and discharge fast, Im ready to up my game even if it means scraping the old batteries. O and im not going 24v so dont bother telling me to switch. Ive done some research and found that for the short runs and small input < 1500 watts the bang for my buck is 12v. Is there a 12v 500+ amp hr battery out there? Like i said the bigger the better.
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  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,439 admin
    #2
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    Re: Biggest Baddest Battery EVER

    If you are into forklift batteries, 12 volt from 530 to 1,875 AH (bad enough for 'ya :p):

    • 12 Volts
    • 530 Amp-hours at the 20 hour rate
    • Dimensions: 18.88"L x 8.88"W x 23.25"H
    • Weight: 465 pounds

    • 12 Volts
    • 1875 Amp-hours at the 20 hour rate
    • Dimensions: 29.13"L x 12.94"W x 31"H
    • Weight: 1422 pounds

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
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  • squarebob
    squarebob Registered Users Posts: 25 ✭✭✭
    #3
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    Re: Biggest Baddest Battery EVER

    I don't condone your reasoning, but to answer your question, GB Industrial Battery has an 1182 Amp Hr, 12 volt battery. It weighs 735 Lbs and costs $1745.00 delivered.

    http://gbindustrialbattery.com/Forklift_Battery_Sizes_and_Specifications_Zone15.html

    Good Luck
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  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    #4
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    Re: Biggest Baddest Battery EVER

    I don't know how many times it's been said here; running an air conditioner off a 12 Volt system is not a good idea. Your post brings up one of the main reasons: the biggest 12 Volt battery you can get.

    Suppose you wanted to supply that 500 Watt unit 24 hours a day. That's 12 kW hours. On a 12 Volt system that's 1000 Amp hours. Say you want to recharge that at 10%. That's 100 Amps of current. That's more than 1 charge controller can handle. That's a lot of big wiring too.

    For big Amp hours you can get industrial batteries. How's 530 Amp hours @ 12 Volts sound? http://www.solar-electric.com/crinba6.html That's $1,600.

    Or you can buy large 6 Volt batteries and put them in series. 546 Amps hours @ 6 Volt * 2: http://www.solar-electric.com/6cs-17ps.html

    Batteries that charge up quick and discharge fast are usually small in capacity. If not by label, then by sulphation.
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  • Eric L
    Eric L Solar Expert Posts: 262 ✭✭
    #5
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    Re: Biggest Baddest Battery EVER
    Suppose you wanted to supply that 500 Watt unit 24 hours a day. That's 12 kW hours.

    Actually he said it's over 600 watts 24/7. So that's over 14.4 KWh/day, just for the AC. The biggest battery mentioned above, at 1875 amp-hours, would thus not be big enough to get him through a single day with low sun without going significantly below 50% SOC.
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  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    #6
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    Re: Biggest Baddest Battery EVER
    Eric L wrote: »
    Actually he said it's over 600 watts 24/7. So that's over 14.4 KWh/day, just for the AC. The biggest battery mentioned above, at 1875 amp-hours, would thus not be big enough to get him through a single day with low sun without going significantly below 50% SOC.

    Talking about two different things. The first was the example of why it'd not a good idea to try to run A/C off 12 Volts. The second was in answer to his request about 500 Amp hour 12 Volt battery systems. I didn't say it would work.

    On the other hand A/C units don't run constantly; they cycle on and off. How much so depends on the ambient temp and humidity, how low you set the A/C, and how often the cat demands to be let in and out.
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  • waynefromnscanada
    waynefromnscanada Solar Expert Posts: 3,009 ✭✭✭✭
    #7
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    Re: Biggest Baddest Battery EVER
    Eric L wrote: »
    Actually he said it's over 600 watts 24/7. So that's over 14.4 KWh/day, just for the AC. The biggest battery mentioned above, at 1875 amp-hours, would thus not be big enough to get him through a single day with low sun without going significantly below 50% SOC.

    Some listen and learn from the experience and knowledge of others, some won't listen and learn the hard, expensive way. Those who tried to help will have no personal regrets. They tried.
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  • mike95490
    mike95490 Solar Expert Posts: 9,583 ✭✭✭✭✭
    #8
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    Re: Biggest Baddest Battery EVER

    I think HUP makes a really honking big battery.

    Or some exotic LiIon batteries, or NiFe cells.
    Powerfab top of pole PV mount | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
    || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
    || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

    solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
    gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister ,

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  • niel
    niel Solar Expert Posts: 10,300 ✭✭✭✭
    #9
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    Re: Biggest Baddest Battery EVER
    mike90045 wrote: »
    I think HUP makes a really honking big battery.

    Or some exotic LiIon batteries, or NiFe cells.

    never heard a battery honk yet. did hup build in some horns to their batteries?:roll::p

    earnest,
    a bigger battery may help some as well as a different battery bank voltage, but to keep costs reasonable, get more capacity in parallel with what you have with the same battery arrangement and put a timer on it so that it won't continue to run even if you fall asleep. more pv will be wanted as well to keep pace with the bigger ah capacity.
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  • peakbagger
    peakbagger Solar Expert Posts: 341 ✭✭✭
    #10
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    Re: Biggest Baddest Battery EVER

    Years ago in Home Power someone was selling surplus submarine batteries, these monsters were about 6 feet tall and required a circulator pump for the electrolyte. I have no idea what someone could do with them but they were impressive.

    There are some uility size batteres that come in MW ratings, they are some exotic chemistry and require elevated temperatures. I expect unless you have a DOE grant you couldnt afford them.
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  • inetdog
    inetdog Solar Expert Posts: 3,123 ✭✭✭✭
    #11
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    Re: Biggest Baddest Battery EVER
    peakbagger wrote: »
    There are some uility size batteries that come in MW ratings, they are some exotic chemistry and require elevated temperatures. I expect unless you have a DOE grant you couldnt afford them.
    From wikipedia:

    A sodium–sulfur battery or liquid-metal battery[1] is a type of molten-metal battery[2] constructed from sodium (Na) and sulfur (S). This type of battery has a high energy density, high efficiency of charge/discharge (89–92%) and long cycle life, and is fabricated from inexpensive materials. :-)
    However, because of the operating temperatures of 300 to 350 °C and the highly corrosive nature of the sodium polysulfides, :cry: such cells are primarily suitable for large-scale non-mobile applications such as grid energy storage.

    And here is the really good part: Lifetime of 2,500 cycles (at 100% DOD - depth of discharge), or 4,500 cycles (at 80% DOD)
    SMA SB 3000, old BP panels.
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  • solarvic
    solarvic Solar Expert Posts: 1,071 ✭✭✭✭
    #12
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    Re: Biggest Baddest Battery EVER
    niel wrote: »
    never heard a battery honk yet. did hup build in some horns to their batteries?:roll::p
    Niel! Maybe they used hupp batterys in the hup mobile http://www.oldride.com/classic_cars/530973.html :cool: solarvic;)
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  • mike95490
    mike95490 Solar Expert Posts: 9,583 ✭✭✭✭✭
    #13
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    Re: Biggest Baddest Battery EVER

    The HUP batteries start at 845 amps @ 12V Just 742 lbs.
    http://proto.hupsolarone.com/?page_id=108
    Powerfab top of pole PV mount | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
    || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
    || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

    solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
    gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister ,

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  • Earnest Tilley
    Earnest Tilley Solar Expert Posts: 56 ✭✭✭✭
    #14
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    Re: Biggest Baddest Battery EVER
    BB. wrote: »
    If you are into forklift batteries, 12 volt from 530 to 1,875 AH (bad enough for 'ya :p):

    • 12 Volts
    • 530 Amp-hours at the 20 hour rate
    • Dimensions: 18.88"L x 8.88"W x 23.25"H
    • Weight: 465 pounds

    • 12 Volts
    • 1875 Amp-hours at the 20 hour rate
    • Dimensions: 29.13"L x 12.94"W x 31"H
    • Weight: 1422 pounds

    -Bill

    OOO YEA my mouth is watering where would be the best place to find one of those i got a truck and a friend with a front end loader so the weight wont be a problem, i can move it where ever which like i said will have to be really close to the solar panels because of the short runs im doing so i dont have to go with a 24v system. I understand a lot of people dont understand or dont want to understand that I have done the research and for what im doing 12v is better for me. Im by no means am i saying that going 12v is better for everyone but in my instance with less than 3ft from my solar panels to my charge controller and less than 1 foot to my batteries 12v is just more cost effective for me.
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  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    #15
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    Re: Biggest Baddest Battery EVER

    Crown industrial 1875 Amp hour 12 Volt battery: http://www.solar-electric.com/crinba12vo18.html $4,000
    You'll also need three charge controllers and about 2800 Watts of array to charge it.
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  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,439 admin
    #16
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    Re: Biggest Baddest Battery EVER

    The link is to our host's store (Northern Arizona Wind & Sun) to give you a good idea of the price.

    However, shipping batteries can be costly. You might check with local battery distributors to see what they can do for you (and make sure they are fresh batteries--Log resting voltage and initial specific gravity).

    It is possible that NAWS can arrange shipping from a local (to you) warehouse. But, all of us moderators here are volunteers and do not have any knowledge of NAWS's business (other than what you/we read on the forum).

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
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  • stephendv
    stephendv Solar Expert Posts: 1,571 ✭✭
    #17
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    Re: Biggest Baddest Battery EVER

    On this side of the pond most of the manufacturers who make OPzS style 2V cells do them in 3000Ah or greater versions. Not sure if any of these are available in the US but you could try:
    Sunlight: 3000Ah: http://www.systems-sunlight.com/?contentid=51&langflag=_en
    Hoppecke: 4700Ah: http://www.hoppecke.com/content/view/full/1210

    These guys seem to be US based and do a 3200Ah OPzS type batt: http://www.baebatteriesusa.com/products/docs/OPzS%202V%20Technical%20Specification-2011.pdf
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  • garlmike
    garlmike Registered Users Posts: 14 ✭
    #18
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    Re: Biggest Baddest Battery EVER

    And BB also sells Forklift battery's I got 4 battery's 24 volt and 1000 ah at 6 hrs 1250 @ 20 hours 1500 @ 100 hours each. 1925 pounds each.
    That gives me about 100 KWH (80% DOD)at my load rate. I'm using 20-25 per full day
    And I'm happy with them, but still need a lot more as that's only 3 days of clouds.
    So what's a good long term storage system for less that the $140.00 per KWH, that will charged in summer and last thur the winter?
    CAES is what i'm looking at, also the fluid metal battery a 2nd.

    Any other ideas?
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  • westbranch
    westbranch Solar Expert Posts: 5,183 ✭✭✭✭
    #19
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    Re: Biggest Baddest Battery EVER

    Before the others jump in... 20 - 25 KwH per say is a great big shwack of power to use. can you expand a bit ? Are the loads constant across the day or large short term loads? Have you worked on reducing the use? Are you Off grid or on mains? What are oyur objectives?
     
    KID #51B  4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM
    CL#29032 FW 2126/ 2073/ 2133 175A E-Panel WBjr, 3 x 4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM 
    Cotek ST1500W 24V Inverter,OmniCharge 3024,
    2 x Cisco WRT54GL i/c DD-WRT Rtr & Bridge,
    Eu3/2/1000i Gens, 1680W & E-Panel/WBjr to come, CL #647 asleep
    West Chilcotin, BC, Canada
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  • garlmike
    garlmike Registered Users Posts: 14 ✭
    #20
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    Re: Biggest Baddest Battery EVER
    westbranch wrote: »
    Before the others jump in... 20 - 25 KwH per say is a great big shwack of power to use. can you expand a bit ? Are the loads constant across the day or large short term loads? Have you worked on reducing the use? Are you Off grid or on mains? What are oyur objectives?

    Yes I think that's close as I'm both on/off grid and just turn off grid power as they told me No Credits. Seems they did put in a 2 way meter but refuse to credit me for power unless 1. pay for 2 way meter 2. pay for massive paperwork (Which is thousands?, they would not say cost) so I don't grid tie.

    OK my XW says the load is always 600-800 watts, at night the load goes up a lot for lights heater fans etc. Average loads of most people is about 20-25 kwh per day. I will use more in winter for heaters, water pumps and furance. And the electric stove, closes dryer is a real power drain.

    I like to be over with power required and have alot more amps left at end of day with the lead battery as normally they go down to around 48.5v volts at the lowest. Today the system only made 14.2 kwh, it was cloudy most of day. If it's sunny they should be making 32 kwh and less to Dec. 21 Edmonton AB.
    OK the voltage is 50.75v and its 6 pm the battery's did not charge fully up. In the last 7 days only one good charging day!
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  • Photowhit
    Photowhit Solar Expert Posts: 6,003 ✭✭✭✭✭
    #21
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    Re: Biggest Baddest Battery EVER

    It's rare to be able to heat with solar, If you'd like to cut your cord with the power company, I'd look into other types of heating, gas, wood, As the days get shorter you would likely kill and battery system you would setup over the short days of winter.
    Home system 4000 watt (Evergreen) array standing, with 2 Midnite Classic Lites,  Midnite E-panel, Magnum MS4024, Prosine 1800(now backup) and Exeltech 1100(former backup...lol), 660 ah 24v Forklift battery(now 10 years old). Off grid for 20 years (if I include 8 months on a bicycle).
    - Assorted other systems, pieces and to many panels in the closet to not do more projects.
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  • inetdog
    inetdog Solar Expert Posts: 3,123 ✭✭✭✭
    #22
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    Re: Biggest Baddest Battery EVER
    Photowhit wrote: »
    It's rare to be able to heat with solar, If you'd like to cut your cord with the power company, I'd look into other types of heating, gas, wood, As the days get shorter you would likely kill and battery system you would setup over the short days of winter.

    The only really cost effective way to heat with PV is to use a heat pump. If you were paying POCO prices for electricity, it would compare favorably with propane, and just about anything else other than piped natural gas and home cut wood.
    Unfortunately that will not serve for cooking or drying clothes. The wind-assisted solar-thermal clothes dryer (line and clothespins) is the cheapest of all for that purpose.
    SMA SB 3000, old BP panels.
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  • garlmike
    garlmike Registered Users Posts: 14 ✭
    #23
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    Re: Biggest Baddest Battery EVER

    sorry about the last post . I have a water pump in a small building that's heated by electric, the house and shop is heated by natural gas and Blaze King wood.
    There is also a sewer pump, and seeing this house has a wood basement it has another pump sub floor. (3 water pumps)

    The Sub Battery sounds like $$, unless it could be rebuilt. The shipping.

    The BB battery was ordered/shipped so it was new, and they put on the yellow caps. They still use a little bit of water but in 10 month I'll have abetter idea how much.
    So far i got them in May 2012 and all cells are good. I think I only added a few gallons so far.

    Did u hear about the new MIT battery?
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  • garlmike
    garlmike Registered Users Posts: 14 ✭
    #24
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    Re: Biggest Baddest Battery EVER
    peakbagger wrote: »
    Years ago in Home Power someone was selling surplus submarine batteries, these monsters were about 6 feet tall and required a circulator pump for the electrolyte. I have no idea what someone could do with them but they were impressive.

    There are some uility size batteres that come in MW ratings, they are some exotic chemistry and require elevated temperatures. I expect unless you have a DOE grant you couldnt afford them.

    http://www.relocationspecialists.org/bat/cell.html
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  • westbranch
    westbranch Solar Expert Posts: 5,183 ✭✭✭✭
    #25
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    Re: Biggest Baddest Battery EVER

    been away for a week building, so missed an opportunity to jump back in..my point is that you are using almost 50% more Kwh (at 24 Kwh) than we do here in BC with a very comparable climate and I stopped wood heating 10 years ago... our highest month is about 16Kwh, elec stove,2 fridges, 2 freezers, dryer, furnace fan, gas DHW and heat, water pump.

    Have you worked on the conservation side as yet?
     
    KID #51B  4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM
    CL#29032 FW 2126/ 2073/ 2133 175A E-Panel WBjr, 3 x 4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM 
    Cotek ST1500W 24V Inverter,OmniCharge 3024,
    2 x Cisco WRT54GL i/c DD-WRT Rtr & Bridge,
    Eu3/2/1000i Gens, 1680W & E-Panel/WBjr to come, CL #647 asleep
    West Chilcotin, BC, Canada
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