Final plans for 24v system.. ready to order..

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  • niel
    niel Solar Expert Posts: 10,300 ✭✭✭✭
    #32
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    Re: Final plans for 24v system.. ready to order..

    just be sure you don't conduct those transactions here.
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  • ywhic
    ywhic Solar Expert Posts: 621 ✭✭
    #33
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    Re: Final plans for 24v system.. ready to order..

    Would a Xantrex 1524-120-60 Inverter/Charger work for my setup?? its a 24v modified sine but has the charger circuit built-in and is a 1500 watt inverter also.. its about $720... but may work for me better in the long run in a cabin sub-panel setup.

    Anyone use one ^^^ with normal appliances (refrig, A/C, TV's, or laptops??
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  • Caneman
    Caneman Solar Expert Posts: 71 ✭✭✭✭
    #34
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    Re: Final plans for 24v system.. ready to order..
    ywhic wrote: »
    I found vendors for the MorningStar TS-45 PWM.. with shipping to me at 19067 (commercial address)..

    OYNOT $148.63
    EnergyBay $154.54
    Infinigi $151.71

    Ecodirect $159
    Solar Blvd $ 160.09
    NAWS $163.85
    altE $162.33

    Anyone use any of the lower priced dealers?? will NAWS match the lower folks??

    I like to save money just like everyone else, I have found that NAWS gives fair prices on the their offerings, you won't find the rock bottom lowest but it is usually below average in price... imo, that is what I have found... I know if I order from them it will be guaranteed and they won't rip me off, to me it is worth it to pay the extra 5% - %10 for that alone, and not to mention the great forum they have here...
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  • mikeo
    mikeo Solar Expert Posts: 386 ✭✭✭
    #35
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    Re: Final plans for 24v system.. ready to order..
    Would a Xantrex 1524-120-60 Inverter/Charger work for my setup
    Would work for most things but will shorten the life of any device that uses induction motors, fans, fridges, pumps? Some CFL's don't like modified square wave either. There is no such thing as a modified sine wave inverter, they lie, they are all modified square waves inverters.
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  • ywhic
    ywhic Solar Expert Posts: 621 ✭✭
    #36
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    Re: Final plans for 24v system.. ready to order..

    I put this pondering question under the cabin lighting thread..

    The Samlex SA-1500-24V (1500w pure sine) model I was looking to get says:

    No Load Current Draw ≦1.5W Saving Mode which don't sound good..

    The Samlex PST-100S-24A (24v also) (1000w pure sine) is saying <0.6 A whichs sound better than the 1500 model..

    The Samlex SA-1000-24V (1000w pure sine) says:

    DC INPUT CURRENT AT NO LOAD (Power Save on) 0.15 A
    DC INPUT CURRENT AT NO LOAD (Power Save off) 0.75 A

    The irony is the surge for the 1500w unit is the same for the 1000w unit... both are 2000 watts..
    The question..

    Would I be smarter to just get the SA-1000-24V model over the SA-1500 .. since they both surge upto 2000 watts.. (and save about $110)

    Or do you folks think the 1500w continous will be better suited.. the only 24/7 item I will have will probably just be a 4-9 cu ft refridge... as like I said the A/C idea would be only part time..

    The 1000w model lets me select from 20, 40, 55, 75, 95, 115, 135 watts for powersave mode.. less than those wattages keeps the unit in powersave more.. the 1500w model only allows 1 setting..

    Still like to go with 1500w but this USAGE thing is now a nag on my brain.. :-(
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  • Caneman
    Caneman Solar Expert Posts: 71 ✭✭✭✭
    #37
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    Re: Final plans for 24v system.. ready to order..
    ywhic wrote: »
    I put this pondering question under the cabin lighting thread..

    The Samlex SA-1500-24V (1500w pure sine) model I was looking to get says:

    No Load Current Draw ≦1.5W Saving Mode which don't sound good..

    The Samlex PST-100S-24A (24v also) (1000w pure sine) is saying <0.6 A whichs sound better than the 1500 model..

    The Samlex SA-1000-24V (1000w pure sine) says:

    DC INPUT CURRENT AT NO LOAD (Power Save on) 0.15 A
    DC INPUT CURRENT AT NO LOAD (Power Save off) 0.75 A

    The irony is the surge for the 1500w unit is the same for the 1000w unit... both are 2000 watts..
    The question..

    Would I be smarter to just get the SA-1000-24V model over the SA-1500 .. since they both surge upto 2000 watts.. (and save about $110)

    Or do you folks think the 1500w continous will be better suited.. the only 24/7 item I will have will probably just be a 4-9 cu ft refridge... as like I said the A/C idea would be only part time..

    The 1000w model lets me select from 20, 40, 55, 75, 95, 115, 135 watts for powersave mode.. less than those wattages keeps the unit in powersave more.. the 1500w model only allows 1 setting..

    Still like to go with 1500w but this USAGE thing is now a nag on my brain.. :-(


    I was looking at the Samlex as well, it has surge capacity of < 1 sec... does not seem very long, perhaps almost useless...

    I see other inverters that have surge ratings for 10s and some up to 30 minutes... i guess it depends on what you need it for...
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  • westbranch
    westbranch Solar Expert Posts: 5,183 ✭✭✭✭
    #38
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    Re: Final plans for 24v system.. ready to order..
    Caneman wrote: »
    other inverters that have surge ratings for 10s and some up to 30 minutes... i guess it depends on what you need it for...

    And how you plan to use/abuse it
     
    KID #51B  4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM
    CL#29032 FW 2126/ 2073/ 2133 175A E-Panel WBjr, 3 x 4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM 
    Cotek ST1500W 24V Inverter,OmniCharge 3024,
    2 x Cisco WRT54GL i/c DD-WRT Rtr & Bridge,
    Eu3/2/1000i Gens, 1680W & E-Panel/WBjr to come, CL #647 asleep
    West Chilcotin, BC, Canada
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  • ywhic
    ywhic Solar Expert Posts: 621 ✭✭
    #39
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    Re: Final plans for 24v system.. ready to order..

    PowerBright makes a 1000w Pure Sine model that can run like 20 minutes I think I just read at 1200 watts.. There 1500w model can run 1800 watts for 20 minutes also..

    APS1000-24.jpg

    Looks just like the Samlex PST model but only has a 1 year warranty.. (right down to the buttons..). Price point is almost the same as the Samlex PST 1000 model also..

    Samlex-PST-100S-24A_m-02.jpg

    And the chassis size is the same.. LoL.. maybe they use the same supplier for that..

    IRT.. Abuse..
    I'd like to jump start a 5-6K window A/C that needs 550w continuos.. rumor has it if you start them on low fan then move to A/C you might have a shot at it.. I plan on running that for a max of 2 hours at peak solar time as not to kill my batteries.. like 1-3 or 2-4pm..

    Leaning toward a 1500w version..
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  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,447 admin
    #40
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    Re: Final plans for 24v system.. ready to order..

    In general, if you are going to power a standard sized refrigeration compressor (usually the "small" fridges seem to use standard sized compressors) plus a few lights and such--1,500 watt watt inverter would probably be a good starting point. Below 1,200 watts--And that will be pretty problematic (some inverters are supposed to have better surge than others--You could ask your retailer if they have a better suggestion).

    Wayne from NS Canada uses a MorningStar 300 watt (600 watt surge), if I remember correctly, for running his fridge--But he did a fair amount of experimentation (starting caps and other stuff?) to get it running reliably on that small of inverter.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
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  • Caneman
    Caneman Solar Expert Posts: 71 ✭✭✭✭
    #41
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    Re: Final plans for 24v system.. ready to order..
    ywhic wrote: »
    PowerBright makes a 1000w Pure Sine model that can run like 20 minutes I think I just read at 1200 watts.. There 1500w model can run 1800 watts for 20 minutes also..

    APS1000-24.jpg

    Looks just like the Samlex PST model but only has a 1 year warranty.. (right down to the buttons..). Price point is almost the same as the Samlex PST 1000 model also..

    Samlex-PST-100S-24A_m-02.jpg

    And the chassis size is the same.. LoL.. maybe they use the same supplier for that..

    IRT.. Abuse..
    I'd like to jump start a 5-6K window A/C that needs 550w continuos.. rumor has it if you start them on low fan then move to A/C you might have a shot at it.. I plan on running that for a max of 2 hours at peak solar time as not to kill my batteries.. like 1-3 or 2-4pm..

    Leaning toward a 1500w version..


    been looking at the Tripp Lite for a similar use, small window ac:

    Attachment not found.

    PV1250FC
    PowerVerter® Plus 1250W Industrial-Strength Inverter with 2 Outlets

    12V DC input; 120V AC output; 2 outlet
    1250 watts continuous output
    Peak surge output: OverPower (up to 1 hour) - 1875 watts, Double-Boost (up to 10 seconds) - 2500 watts
    High efficiency power conversion
    Automatic overload protection

    much cheaper than the Samlex and claims to run a/c... we are having a pretty good discussion on it in another section of the forum here:

    http://forum.solar-electric.com/showthread.php?15712-PMW-Inverter

    these Tripp Lite Inverters are not MSW or PSW but somewhere in between...
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  • vtmaps
    vtmaps Solar Expert Posts: 3,741 ✭✭✭✭
    #42
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    Re: Final plans for 24v system.. ready to order..

    Albert, as you research these inverters, pay attention to their no-load draw (and their search mode draw, if you will use that function). Have you looked at the Exeltech or Victron inverters?

    --vtMaps
    4 X 235watt Samsung, Midnite ePanel, Outback VFX3524 FM60 & mate, 4 Interstate L16, trimetric, Honda eu2000i
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  • ywhic
    ywhic Solar Expert Posts: 621 ✭✭
    #43
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    Re: Final plans for 24v system.. ready to order..

    The Victron 750 is to low of wattage (and $370).. and the EXeltech 1000 is like $750..

    Leaning toward a Samlex 1500 over the PB 1000 even though the PB surges for longer (allegedly) mainly because of the 2 year warranty over the 1 yr from PB..
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  • ywhic
    ywhic Solar Expert Posts: 621 ✭✭
    #44
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    Re: Final plans for 24v system.. ready to order..

    I'm wondering if running 2 inverters would be smarter.. 1 small puresine 300-600w and 1 big MW one (1800+) (for that A/C idea).

    Might work out slightly cheaper.. and the big one would only be for the A/C idea like a 8 weeks out of the year for max of 2 hours per day and wired to that particular single outlet.. the rest of the time it would be off and un-connected (via a switch)..

    The question would be how many summers will the A/C last on an MW inverter..

    And the smaller pure inverter would be for the rest of the 110 outlets I have planned out..

    The B option is keep it a 12v system and buy a Xantrex SW2000 12v Sine inverter (less than <800 mA draw) for $350 and be done...

    Of course the max with 6 130 w Kyoceras in straight parallel is the 780 watts on the TS45.. which still is nothing to sneeze at with a decent bank..
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  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,447 admin
    #45
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    Re: Final plans for 24v system.. ready to order..

    I am not sure that anyone can answer that question... The A/C may work normally, or "die" 10-20% sooner than it normally would have (how could you tell)... Or it may only last a few days (probably not likely).

    If you are getting a "cheap" window A/C unit--Perhaps the money saved on the AC and MSW Inverter make it worth the "experiment". And even if you need to replace the AC unit every 2-4 years, it still may be the more cost effective solution.

    If the AC is an expensive unit (like a mini-split system--which can be great for use on an off grid system--efficient and does not have high starting surge current), it may not be worth saving the money by using a MSW inverter--Replacing a mini-split is not going to be cheap.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
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  • ywhic
    ywhic Solar Expert Posts: 621 ✭✭
    #46
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    Re: Final plans for 24v system.. ready to order..

    Updates..

    Going with the Samlex SSW-1500 12v 1500 watt pure sine inverter.. using 2 guage per the booklet (maybe 1/0).. and 200 amp ICB breaker.. (the Samlex SSW comes with a free meter plate that shows battery volts and watts being used)

    I decided the max for this system will be 780 watts worth of PV panel +/-.. so 12v would be easier for me to work with and find 12v pumps, and auxillary things..

    Order updates..

    6 Circuit Combiner box due in (5/17) and 6-10 Amp breakers for it (ordered today) (panels are at 8amp ISC so 10's are good)..
    MorningStar Controller TS-45 (PWM) ordered this morning..

    Progress pics coming..
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  • silvertop
    silvertop Solar Expert Posts: 155 ✭✭✭✭✭
    #47
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    Re: Final plans for 24v system.. ready to order..

    Im not sure of the 3K surge on the Samlex 1500. I have the Cotek 1500 24V ( same make) and it will run three minutes at 1700 W and surge to 2000 Watts. I tried to run a 7000 BTU A/C and I found it will not:grr I had planned on a 2000 Watt Cotek inverter for larger loads later, but was hopefull that the 1500W might work.....Still it runs the fridg. and house 24/7....:cool:
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  • westbranch
    westbranch Solar Expert Posts: 5,183 ✭✭✭✭
    #48
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    Re: Final plans for 24v system.. ready to order..

    Silvertop, what do you estimate your total, at one time, loads are? ie fridge and ?? kicking in simultaneously??
     
    KID #51B  4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM
    CL#29032 FW 2126/ 2073/ 2133 175A E-Panel WBjr, 3 x 4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM 
    Cotek ST1500W 24V Inverter,OmniCharge 3024,
    2 x Cisco WRT54GL i/c DD-WRT Rtr & Bridge,
    Eu3/2/1000i Gens, 1680W & E-Panel/WBjr to come, CL #647 asleep
    West Chilcotin, BC, Canada
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  • ywhic
    ywhic Solar Expert Posts: 621 ✭✭
    #49
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    Re: Final plans for 24v system.. ready to order..

    I noticed while checking out A/C at the stores.. The 110v ratings and amps on the sticker on the unit:

    5000 BTU is rated 4.5 AMPs.. 6000 is 5.5AMPs.. and 7000 is 7.6 AMPS..

    I think everything should be doubled for the surge.. 9 amp, 11 amp, and 15.2 amps.. (90, 110, 152 amps on 12v DC) that may be where the issue comes in.. I don't know if your 7K is new and low EER or older, or did you have the fridge on as well when you tried?? Do you have the killwatt reading for the normal draw load on that 7K A/C??

    The SSW-2000 is like $450.. and the SSW-1500 is $335...

    I am thinking a 5K or 6K with a good 9-10EER would work on the 1500 watt model..
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  • Photowhit
    Photowhit Solar Expert Posts: 6,003 ✭✭✭✭✭
    #50
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    Re: Final plans for 24v system.. ready to order..
    ywhic wrote: »
    I am thinking a 5K or 6K with a good 9-10EER would work on the 1500 watt model..

    I've actually been looking myself, as I will have to forgo the central AC, if I when I switch my new Modular to off grid. I'd shoot for the highest EER you can get, and I'm seeing 11 for for the 5K to 6K group, like this;

    http://www.sears.com/kenmore-5-200-btu-room-air-conditioner/p-04270051000P?prdNo=1&blockNo=1&blockType=G1
    Home system 4000 watt (Evergreen) array standing, with 2 Midnite Classic Lites,  Midnite E-panel, Magnum MS4024, Prosine 1800(now backup) and Exeltech 1100(former backup...lol), 660 ah 24v Forklift battery(now 10 years old). Off grid for 20 years (if I include 8 months on a bicycle).
    - Assorted other systems, pieces and to many panels in the closet to not do more projects.
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  • Caneman
    Caneman Solar Expert Posts: 71 ✭✭✭✭
    #51
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    Re: Final plans for 24v system.. ready to order..
    ywhic wrote: »
    I noticed while checking out A/C at the stores.. The 110v ratings and amps on the sticker on the unit:

    5000 BTU is rated 4.5 AMPs.. 6000 is 5.5AMPs.. and 7000 is 7.6 AMPS..

    I think everything should be doubled for the surge.. 9 amp, 11 amp, and 15.2 amps.. (90, 110, 152 amps on 12v DC) that may be where the issue comes in.. I don't know if your 7K is new and low EER or older, or did you have the fridge on as well when you tried?? Do you have the killwatt reading for the normal draw load on that 7K A/C??

    The SSW-2000 is like $450.. and the SSW-1500 is $335...

    I am thinking a 5K or 6K with a good 9-10EER would work on the 1500 watt model..

    I am looking at the same a/c app you are, and those 5000 btu units can surge up to 18 amps (see 2manytoyz.com http://www.2manytoyz.com/yamaha2400.html )! That is why I am looking at the 24v 2400w Tripp Lite PWM inverter, that claims 3600w for 1 hour, and 4800w for 10s, and they claim the unit will run induction motors without causing problems... all this for the same price as the Samlex 1500w 24v
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  • Photowhit
    Photowhit Solar Expert Posts: 6,003 ✭✭✭✭✭
    #52
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    Re: Final plans for 24v system.. ready to order..

    I didn't go back to reread 2manytoyZ article, as I recall though the high surge is based on restarting very quickly, ie; compressing the compressed. Most/all current AC have circuitry to prevent the quick restarting. I've run my AC on a 1400watt inverter without issue, and have used an 1800watt for the last 3 w/o issue. Starts the AC even with the fridge running, and other minor thigs.
    Home system 4000 watt (Evergreen) array standing, with 2 Midnite Classic Lites,  Midnite E-panel, Magnum MS4024, Prosine 1800(now backup) and Exeltech 1100(former backup...lol), 660 ah 24v Forklift battery(now 10 years old). Off grid for 20 years (if I include 8 months on a bicycle).
    - Assorted other systems, pieces and to many panels in the closet to not do more projects.
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  • ywhic
    ywhic Solar Expert Posts: 621 ✭✭
    #53
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    Re: Final plans for 24v system.. ready to order..

    I'll stick with the Samlex Pure Sine in 1500-2000 watt flavor.. for me the $80 price difference isn't bad as it should work..

    I know alot of people (on here) use the Xantrex Pro 1800's without issue with A/C units.. so I think a 2000 watt Samlex should be ok..

    Combiner Box setup.. 5 more breakers due in tommorrow.. (10 AMP QO..)

    Finished.jpg

    StrainRelief.jpg

    I ordered some 6 AWG for the controller to the battery bank just now.. I figure 4 ft down the wall.. (I ordered 5 feet though).

    This finishes the top half... more pics to come as things come in..
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  • ywhic
    ywhic Solar Expert Posts: 621 ✭✭
    #54
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    Re: Final plans for 24v system.. ready to order..

    Updated pic with 6 breakers.. oh and whats this 8' of 4/0 Weld Wire (Free from my inlaw) for my planned 2000K inverter.. :cool:

    8ft400.jpg

    Finish3Combiner.jpg

    Getting there...
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  • ywhic
    ywhic Solar Expert Posts: 621 ✭✭
    #55
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    Re: Final plans for 24v system.. ready to order..

    Found some 3/0 - 4 AWG mechanical lugs at Home Depot.. $4.49 for 2..

    BlackBurn / Thomas & Betts BTC3104-B2.. HD SKU# 526747.

    Bought 3 packs so I can do my inverter leads, fuse, and battery switch..

    Note.. the wire was actually 3/00 (measured the bare wire diameter).. still FREE is good..

    Heres one lug installed.. :cool:

    30wirelugs.jpg
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  • Photowhit
    Photowhit Solar Expert Posts: 6,003 ✭✭✭✭✭
    #56
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    Re: Final plans for 24v system.. ready to order..

    You might 'tin' the copper, I think copper oxidizes very easily.

    Might also look into your panels somewhat sooner, US just imposed a 31% tarriff on solar imported from China.
    Home system 4000 watt (Evergreen) array standing, with 2 Midnite Classic Lites,  Midnite E-panel, Magnum MS4024, Prosine 1800(now backup) and Exeltech 1100(former backup...lol), 660 ah 24v Forklift battery(now 10 years old). Off grid for 20 years (if I include 8 months on a bicycle).
    - Assorted other systems, pieces and to many panels in the closet to not do more projects.
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  • ywhic
    ywhic Solar Expert Posts: 621 ✭✭
    #57
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    Re: Final plans for 24v system.. ready to order..

    That can't happen for about 2 months at least.. I can't fly to TX and leave everything outside to get jacked.. (even though I am in the middle of nowhere)... there is still farm traffic that passes by..

    I made fresh splices and ends on the cabling. it will have to do for now.. made each one 45" long.. thought the + one will be diced for fuse and the battery lead... I'm glad I went with 3/0.. keep the loss down..
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  • mike95490
    mike95490 Solar Expert Posts: 9,583 ✭✭✭✭✭
    #58
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    Re: Final plans for 24v system.. ready to order..

    You mean tin the lugs - right ? The cables should NOT be tinned.

    You will have to be very careful with that set-screw clamp lug, they are soft copper and it's very hard to get a GOOD torque on it. I'd really consider the lugs NAWS stocks, price wise, about the best I've seen. You can use the no-ox grease on the copper - mash it in really good, and that should keep the cables from ozidizing. The thin welding cable strands can go black oxide copper, really quick. I used some copper conductive grease from McMasterCarr on my cables before I crimped them http://www.mcmaster.com/#conductive-grease/=hla1d5
    see the BIG LUG link below in my .sig
    Powerfab top of pole PV mount | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
    || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
    || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

    solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
    gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister ,

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  • ywhic
    ywhic Solar Expert Posts: 621 ✭✭
    #59
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    Re: Final plans for 24v system.. ready to order..

    Have to try and get some of the grease.. thats a good tip.. I'll keep an eye on the terminals/wire for oxidation..
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  • ywhic
    ywhic Solar Expert Posts: 621 ✭✭
    #60
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    Re: Final plans for 24v system.. ready to order..
    Photowhit wrote: »
    You might 'tin' the copper, I think copper oxidizes very easily.

    Might also look into your panels somewhat sooner, US just imposed a 31% tarriff on solar imported from China.

    Maybe I should forgo the inverter for $350-390 and try to grab 2 panels.. for the $450 that I spyed them for.. I could always ship them to myself later.. might save over that proposed increase.. I could do like 4 panels in the next month..
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  • silvertop
    silvertop Solar Expert Posts: 155 ✭✭✭✭✭
    #61
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    Re: Final plans for 24v system.. ready to order..

    about the fridg. and other loads I made sure that it had not kicked in. I think maybe a 5000 BTU would work, this 7000 BTU had not run in two years ( new then) so maybe the startup was more than normal. Next year I still plan to upgrade with a second larger inverter for larger loads....when I have extra summer electric. For the moment I am starting to add a third array, to be running by fall:cool:
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