"When the Lights Go Out"...
Comments
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Re: "When the Lights Go Out"...
I know the term "geothermal" is often used to mean "ground sourced" in the HVAC industry, but in the context of this thread I wanted to be clear to future readers that there is a big difference.
Like you I would love to be able to tap some deep heat for personal use. It could even be used to drive an ammonia adsorption A/C system in the summer.4.5 kw APC UPS powered by a Prius, 12 kw Generac, Honda EU3000is -
Re: "When the Lights Go Out"...
I just lost power due to a underground transformer short taking out the neighborhood. My kids heard a loud bang then nothing. My small off-grid system with the PROWATT SW 2000 with 450Ah of costco golf cart batteries handled the house lights, LCD TV, sat receiver and computer network with ease.
"When the Lights Go Out" can be anytime.
When I saw this I knew it was bad news. The local utility guys.
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7051/6836640398_ed4d078c3a_z_d.jpg
The "Thing" removed. Portland General Electric to the rescue.
http://flic.kr/p/bq9tzj
http://flic.kr/p/bD6yVi -
Re: "When the Lights Go Out"...
nsaspook,
isn't it great that you've got it covered? our transformers out here are not underground or at least they aren't supposed to be as a major transformer (may have been small substation) got buried some 20 years ago under a landslide here. it was fairly new too as it replaced one that went bad. (i remember the low voltage i had back then as it was typically 95v-105v) that was at least a week long outage for me as they couldn't just replace the transformer as they needed to relocate it too being it was now located near shaky ground. if you're wondering what caused the landslide, it was a major water leak in a new (at the time) school located at the top of the hill and, if i remember rightly, it had something to do with the pool they put in. now i get consistently high end voltages that skirt around the legal point. -
Re: "When the Lights Go Out"...
Hummm...Mellow Joy?...Fair Trade...? pilot light , match, just like I was at the store with options...!!Always troubleshoot with adequate sunlight. Hi Ho Hi Ho
2.3kW [10] Enecsys SMI-240-60 micro inverters -
Re: "When the Lights Go Out"...Hummm...Mellow Joy?...Fair Trade...? pilot light , match, just like I was at the store with options...!!
explain this and its pertinence to the thread. -
Re: "When the Lights Go Out"...I know the term "geothermal" is often used to mean "ground sourced" in the HVAC industry, but in the context of this thread I wanted to be clear to future readers that there is a big difference.
Like you I would love to be able to tap some deep heat for personal use. It could even be used to drive an ammonia adsorption A/C system in the summer.
Speaking of these ammonia units, I just boned on that was leaking in our (new to us, ancient in reality) travel trailer. Without it being on-site at Yellowstone with it's own dedicated geyser those things are brutally inefficient. We chose to replace it with a smaller GE electric that just sips the power. This type of fridge is well within play of the solar setup we will unfurl when on-site.
Of course, this is the plan, I intend to exectute. Getting too lazy lately...lol -
Re: "When the Lights Go Out"...
Just out of curiosity, how many hours of operation do you get on that system, and what's your average load?I just lost power due to a underground transformer short taking out the neighborhood. My kids heard a loud bang then nothing. My small off-grid system with the PROWATT SW 2000 with 450Ah of costco golf cart batteries handled the house lights, LCD TV, sat receiver and computer network with ease. -
Re: "When the Lights Go Out"...
That night I used about 200-250W avg for about 6 hours. The battery monitor showed about 6 hours of run time per battery bank at that load. (2 12vdc strings with a selector switch to the inverter) At bed time the first bank was almost gone so I switched over for the night. Power was restored the next day. -
Re: "When the Lights Go Out"...
Yeah, we only get about 4-5 hours out of ours. But then again, I've got it rigged up to do the entire house. At the same time we're still not under our 250kwh/m limit that I need. I'm trying, but until my next quarterly payment comes in (I get paid by the quarter) I'm unable to do anymore upgrades. It also doesn't help that, between this house and the solar project, I've pretty much drained every dime of savings. But, when I'm done, I'll be able to go completely off grid.
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Re: "When the Lights Go Out"...
Ours is setup to run lights, all CFL, internet/networking hardware, LCD TV and Sat Receiver and outlets in the bedroom for my CPAP. If we don't leave the TV on all night we go about 18 hrs before I consider starting up the genny. That is off 2 8D RV batteries. We had 4 connected at one time but it was more that I needed and my charger is not large enough to keep them up properly. -
Re: "When the Lights Go Out"...
Actually 4 would be better than 2. For starters due to the Peukert Effect you'll get more usable amps out of them - you'll get more than double the amps even though you have only doubled your batteries (Google Peukert Effect for more info). For most outages you won't even need the genset.
While it will then take longer to fully charge, during the few days of an emergency your goal isn't to top them off, but to just get them through the bulk stage of charging. Or even less if, for instance, you can only run the genset for 2 hours in the morning before you have to go to work. If your charger can do let's say 10 amp-h, you will still be putting 10 amp-h back in whether you are charging 2 or 4 batteries. RVers use this method all the time - charge for a few hours on day 3 of a trip, then again on day 6, by day 7 you are down to 30% and you put it on a wall charger to fully charge it after getting home. Over a week the charge level might go 100-70-80-50-60-30 then back to 100 at home. If your power is out long enough that you hit 30% then it is time to start conservation mode and reserve the battery for your CPAP, plus run the genset longer.
If you are full-time RVing (I'm guessing from your "location"), and this is your "house" battery, this is still true. However, instead of going down to 30% as you would in a standby system your goal is to stay above 50%.4.5 kw APC UPS powered by a Prius, 12 kw Generac, Honda EU3000is -
Re: "When the Lights Go Out"...
This was installed at my house.
Problem I had is the charger was too small to keep 4 batteries properly conditioned. Instead of buying a bigger charger I pulled two batteries. Most of our outages ran 2-4 hrs. Even with the two batteries I don't think I ever hit the 50% mark.
My charging setup was little on the hokey side. I used a Xantrex C12 (I think) controller with a 15v unregulated power supply connected. The plan was to put a solar panel on the roof to keep the battery up but could not really justify the expense for such a limited use.
That setup worked great for several years until we sold the house back in November. I removed the system when we moved. -
Re: "When the Lights Go Out"...
Ammonia absorption a/c or refrigeration units are less than 50% efficient, but that's ok if you are using waste heat or free heat for your power source. -
Re: "When the Lights Go Out"...
If its an emergency system, once the battery is charged you really only need enough to maintain float.4.5 kw APC UPS powered by a Prius, 12 kw Generac, Honda EU3000is -
Re: "When the Lights Go Out"...Ammonia absorption a/c or refrigeration units are less than 50% efficient, but that's ok if you are using waste heat or free heat for your power source.
I like the earlier description of "brutally inefficient". Especially when compared to modern high efficiency electric refrigeration systems. -
Re: "When the Lights Go Out"...
If the 8+ scale earthquakes predicted around April 22 don't get us, and the world doesn't end on December 21st, then this article has some insight of the coming change of "Decenteralization of Energy".... It's both a state of mind as well as state of the art technology change...
It's an excerpt from a new book, Before the Lights Go Out: Conquering the Energy Crisis Before It Conquers Us. and shows how the changes for the average American in the early 1900's from chopping wood for heat, to the latter 1900's (feel old?) twist of the thermostat, are facing us, again, in the coming years....
http://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2012/04/what-we-talk-about-when-we-talk-about-the-decentralization-of-energy/255873/
BillBill -
Re: "When the Lights Go Out"...BilljustBill wrote: »
It's an excerpt from a new book, Before the Lights Go Out: Conquering the Energy Crisis Before It Conquers Us. and shows how the changes for the average American in the early 1900's from chopping wood for heat, to the latter 1900's (feel old?) twist of the thermostat, are facing us, again, in the coming years....
http://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2012/04/what-we-talk-about-when-we-talk-about-the-decentralization-of-energy/255873/
Bill
Chopping wood has been going on at my house since I built the house 30 years back.....and we'll heat with wood as far down the road as I can see. Now the PV system supplies 2/3-3/4 of our electrical needs ( and would be over 100% if we cut out some convenience/entertainment items ). Water is gravity fed spring.....honestly, I don't know how much more independent we could get, energy wise. -
Re: "When the Lights Go Out"...
I find the fitting statement "sacrificing convenience for control" an honest one. The grid, as a given constant, has done more to affect control of the masses than anything else I can think of. Used to be that pointing the wagon westward meant supreme sacrifice and despair to achieve freedom and independence. Now it is a vacation never quite out of reach of the grid while bouncing from gas station to hotel to well lit campground.
It's all fun and games 'till someone pokes their power plant out...lol
I talk to alot of people who prepare. They take the approach of plan for no power only. For them there is nothng in-between where the Flintstone's meet the Jetson's. I know on this site there are many that do and to this I do subscribe. The "nuclear family" is a misnomer these days. -
Re: "When the Lights Go Out"...
stevek,
yes, i put the k in there just to make sure which steve knows i am addressing here.:-)
anyway, i do concur with you that there is a large element of us that are here due to preparedness for outages, myself included. the reasons are irrelevant as it could be the belief all will end or nature or human error/terror. i think what you are referring to the grid as, is a drug that we all have come to depend on and can't seem to be without for very long or we go through withdrawal. utilities bait us, get us hooked, and then make us pay making them the dealer. this is all a bit of a stretch, but there are parallels. off gridders just make their own juice for their own habit?:roll: now it occurs to me this parallel applies to many of those that are gt as well as their supply doesn't get cut off much, but they tend to worry about the costs of their habit and so try to offset those costs.
darn it, we're addicts.
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Re: "When the Lights Go Out"...
Here is a different view by an anti Smart Meter/Grid. some very plausible interesting points by Mr Chalk.
http://thepowerfilm.org/
KID #51B 4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM
CL#29032 FW 2126/ 2073/ 2133 175A E-Panel WBjr, 3 x 4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM
Cotek ST1500W 24V Inverter,OmniCharge 3024,
2 x Cisco WRT54GL i/c DD-WRT Rtr & Bridge,
Eu3/2/1000i Gens, 1680W & E-Panel/WBjr to come, CL #647 asleep
West Chilcotin, BC, Canada -
Re: "When the Lights Go Out"...
without my going into details some of those points do have some validity, but some are far from the true and are a bit alarmist. -
Re: "When the Lights Go Out"...
particularly stretched, is his prediction of TOTAL failure within 3 years... though there is a possibility it could, not will, happen.
KID #51B 4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM
CL#29032 FW 2126/ 2073/ 2133 175A E-Panel WBjr, 3 x 4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM
Cotek ST1500W 24V Inverter,OmniCharge 3024,
2 x Cisco WRT54GL i/c DD-WRT Rtr & Bridge,
Eu3/2/1000i Gens, 1680W & E-Panel/WBjr to come, CL #647 asleep
West Chilcotin, BC, Canada -
Re: "When the Lights Go Out"...stevek,
yes, i put the k in there just to make sure which steve knows i am addressing here.:-)
anyway, i do concur with you that there is a large element of us that are here due to preparedness for outages, myself included. the reasons are irrelevant as it could be the belief all will end or nature or human error/terror. i think what you are referring to the grid as, is a drug that we all have come to depend on and can't seem to be without for very long or we go through withdrawal. utilities bait us, get us hooked, and then make us pay making them the dealer. this is all a bit of a stretch, but there are parallels. off gridders just make their own juice for their own habit?:roll: now it occurs to me this parallel applies to many of those that are gt as well as their supply doesn't get cut off much, but they tend to worry about the costs of their habit and so try to offset those costs.
darn it, we're addicts.
Yes we are addicts, Niel. It's a good way to describe it. The grid has done more good than harm for sure. It's kind of like the aircraft. A wonderful tool that has done much good for us right up until the moment it it can no longer fly. The folks on that flight now wish they drove or walked or never left to begin with. Of course the example is this on steroids in comparison.
My state is now officially 75% natural gas power plant. The intention is near 90% in the future. That's not cool. That is not enough diversity in my opinion. Texas is faultering as well. What they have done is dangerous too.
I'd add that we are addicted to the grid as much as we are addicted to oxygen these days. Those folks that supply grid tied solar energy really help out. I wish there were more of them and I wish there were a way to let them have more control of the grid instead of being at the mercy of it. I would prefer all of our energy needs be supplied by individuals instead of the poco's. Mass has "Cape Wind" under development. It will supply ~200,000 homes with their full power requirement when completed.
Off topic maybe. Did anyone see that massive solar flare yesterday? I know it would take a huge one or two at precisely the right angle but man it sure was spectacular to look at!
Thanks Niel! -
Re: "When the Lights Go Out"...
Westbranch, I like the video. Thanks!
This smart grid stuff is a bit over my head at the level of understanding that he describes. I do not like outside control of my home in any way. I do not need to turn my AC off from AZ nor do I want someone else to do so.
I do know this. Last November my wife woke up one Sunday morning to find that $XXXX was missing from her bank account. I figure if they can do this to her, she who does not shop online at all, they can certainly do bad things to the smart grid and us by default. I also don't want to have to wonder or worry just who is the bad guy du jour....
Who else but me would need to control my heater anyways? -
Re: "When the Lights Go Out"...
That solar flare happened two days ago. Pretty scary stuff if you ask me but simply beautiful and ominously amazing at the same time. I don't believe the Mayans knew anything about 2012 that the local mindreader/psychic/crystal ball types do today. Still, when I look at this picture I can't help but refference Woody Harrelson's fringe scientist character's words in the movie "2012". Right before he meets his demise, not from a solar flare mind you (I am not a spoiler), he stands there with a tear in his eyes and transmits "It's sooo beauuutiful!"
Attachment not found. -
Re: "When the Lights Go Out"...
We are currently staying with some friends that had an eye opener a few months ago. The area was hit with an ice storm that took their power out for over a week. Freezing temps, no heat, no lights, refrigeration out etc...
They were lucky enough to find a generator for sale during that outage and were able to stay warm with a small propane heater. The experience left them with a desire to be better prepared in the future. They have asked me to do two simple things for them. First is an enclosure next to the garage to secure their generator. The other is to fun gas lines in the house for a propane stove and a heater in the living room. They already have propane hot water. I have no idea why a line was not run for a stove. -
Re: "When the Lights Go Out"...We are currently staying with some friends that had an eye opener a few months ago. The area was hit with an ice storm that took their power out for over a week. Freezing temps, no heat, no lights, refrigeration out etc...
They were lucky enough to find a generator for sale during that outage and were able to stay warm with a small propane heater. The experience left them with a desire to be better prepared in the future. They have asked me to do two simple things for them. First is an enclosure next to the garage to secure their generator. The other is to fun gas lines in the house for a propane stove and a heater in the living room. They already have propane hot water. I have no idea why a line was not run for a stove.
Will the storms bring cloudy weather or debris to smash the PV panels ??
for a week event, a propane fueled (3 fuel gen kits - gas/propane/nat.gas) genset would be the ticket, along with propane space heat. You don't need heat to keep the room a toasty 75F, just enough to keep pipes from freezing up. Keep that tank topped off.
If you invent in a $50,000 solar backup, and you have a week of stormy, cloudy weather, you still have to run the genset and burn $15 of fuel a day to keep the batteries charged, or loose a $2,000 set of batteries !Powerfab top of pole PV mount | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
|| Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
|| VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A
solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister , -
Re: "When the Lights Go Out"...Will the storms bring cloudy weather or debris to smash the PV panels ??
for a week event, a propane fueled (3 fuel gen kits - gas/propane/nat.gas) genset would be the ticket, along with propane space heat. You don't need heat to keep the room a toasty 75F, just enough to keep pipes from freezing up. Keep that tank topped off.
If you invent in a $50,000 solar backup, and you have a week of stormy, cloudy weather, you still have to run the genset and burn $15 of fuel a day to keep the batteries charged, or loose a $2,000 set of batteries !
I do very much agree with Mike here. But we would have to assume that the $50,000 back-up system was not being used at all in between outages. We did not spend $50,000 dollars and do have enough back-up power, but we also use this system daily to power things in the home in between events. That is something that a generator can not contribute to in any efficient way. As a matter of fact, we count on the genny to only recharge the batteries if needed. At that point we have a little extra to run convenience items while it is recharging the batteries. The genny gets the least use of all... Conservation is key. Learning to live without the grid is key to us also. I've learned enough to know I would not like living without the grid one bit!
We made up some plywood covers for the panels, of course without the grid or web we would have no clue of the danger upon us beside Amateur Radio. -
Re: "When the Lights Go Out"...Yes we are addicts, Niel. It's a good way to describe it. The grid has done more good than harm for sure.
<snip>
I'd add that we are addicted to the grid as much as we are addicted to oxygen these days. Those folks that supply grid tied solar energy really help out. I wish there were more of them and I wish there were a way to let them have more control of the grid instead of being at the mercy of it.waynefromnscanada wrote: »Oh, and a word of warning - - dipping your toes into the world of solar energy can result in a serious addiction to said solar energyBecause of my electric guzzling household I will slowly "ease" into a total off-grid system so I will need to be tied in until I ultimately have created a large enough array to break my addiction. Are there any factors I need to consider when designing my current grid-tied to eventual off-grid system?
Well admitting it is the first step... eleven more to go! --vtMaps4 X 235watt Samsung, Midnite ePanel, Outback VFX3524 FM60 & mate, 4 Interstate L16, trimetric, Honda eu2000i -
Re: "When the Lights Go Out"...
I guess getting a new 24V set of batteries doesn't count as step 2?
KID #51B 4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM
CL#29032 FW 2126/ 2073/ 2133 175A E-Panel WBjr, 3 x 4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM
Cotek ST1500W 24V Inverter,OmniCharge 3024,
2 x Cisco WRT54GL i/c DD-WRT Rtr & Bridge,
Eu3/2/1000i Gens, 1680W & E-Panel/WBjr to come, CL #647 asleep
West Chilcotin, BC, Canada
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