"When the Lights Go Out"...

SteveK

Re: "When the Lights Go Out"...

BilljustBill wrote: »

What basic power appliances/lighting do you see a family of two or four need to get through a day of living with shortages around/in a community/county/state disaster? Then, what solar equipment and support items would you collect/buy to run this system?

None really. One day without power is a reason to dust off the board games at best in my opinion. The only thing that would happen then is some of the freezer contents will merely thaw and not spoil... Or, on the opposite end of the spectrum, crack the faucets open to prevent freezing of them. No need to worry about food spoilage in this instance...

If prepareing for only an ocasional day without power, get some flashlights, batteries (rechargeable is not even required), a small radio and break out the camping gear that most everyone has put away for the one weekend a month summertime excursion.... The phones will still work and if not recharge cells from the car. Put on several layers of clothing (or take off your clothes in the desert heh) if needed. Our suburban/rural/urban residential infrastucture (urban being the weakest of the links in the term) is near impervious to one day without power. There may be looting if you live in an area prone to it...but that is beyond the scope of any normal circumstance.

Enjoy the event! Maybe work on adding to the family? You will never have a better opportunity to converse with the kids as when "The Lights Go Out" for one measly day too!

Reading the above posts about on-topic material some of you may be interested to know that the State of Wyoming is prepareing for a long term event and the contingencies reach as far as a sovereign currency.... http://trib.com/news/state-and-regional/govt-and-politics/wyoming-house-advances-doomsday-bill/article_af6e1b2b-0ca4-553f-85e9-92c0f58c00bd.html

And still walking the tightrope here, this FEMA pamphlet titled "Disaster Planning is Up To You" (too freaking funny IMO) is available for all to view. Keeping in mind that this is 2 days longer than your original request of one day without power. Those extra two days without power changes the landscape immensely. Here it is: http://www.fema.gov/news/newsrelease.fema?id=35169

Hey look people, FEMA just titled this thing to state that it is you and not them that are responsible for your well being. Prepping is optional but highly adviseable and not prepping is downright unconshtatushaunal....heh heh heh...

nvyseal

Re: "When the Lights Go Out"...

niel wrote: »

dave,
i don't think it is initially needed for a refrigerator or freezer as they can easily keep for a few hours as long as one stays out of it for awhile. i view the lights to be more important, for when the power goes out it will take quite some time for your eyes to adjust to the darkness and even then if it's pitch black with no moonlight, headlights, etc. they will never adjust so you will need something even to find the candles and matches as they are rarely right there when it happens. even a candle nut can hurt themselves before getting to it even when they know where it is.

We just went through this drill with the winds we had here in So. CA.

I tend to find the littlest things to be the most important with the loss of power.

1. The vampire suckers: Cell phone chargers, Tablet Chargers, Headphone chargers, etc.
2. Then we have Communications: Cordless Landline, wireless Routers, High speed modems, laptops
3. Then the extended necessity items: Electronic igniters for Stove, Oven, Gas Water Heater, Microwave oven is a big forgetful item. A little butane cooktop is really useful here.

Everyone should have a little generator. I have a 1982 Honda 600 that still works and comes in handy.

SteveK

Re: "When the Lights Go Out"...

One day without power. Come to think about it, we look forward to getting away from it all backpacking for a week a year. That includes the electricity. Back to basics for a day is real easy....

vcallaway

Re: "When the Lights Go Out"...

I've been offline for a while so I came to the party late on this topic shift.

To answer a question about "The Colony": The show was sponsored by Harbor Freight Tools. They seeded the warehouse with their stuff. The inverter they used was a 2k MSW inverter available at your local HF Tools.

It did not take long watching that show to figure out they had no clue.

Cariboocoot

Re: "When the Lights Go Out"...

Hmm. I guess it pays to have spent years living off-grid with no electric for extended periods of time.
The cabin ran with propane lights, 'frige, and stove from the time it was built in the 1950's until solar became practical (2005 when the first "big" system went in). Before we owned it, a family lived there year 'round - and it was lake-access only.

What I see here is not "what happens when the lights go out?" so much as "how can we maintain our modern electric-everything lifestyle when they do?"

Having lived both ways (for contrast, we had an all-electric house those years that the cabin had no electric) I can say that the biggest improvement electricity makes is better refrigeration. I'll even disagree that lights are important, because there's always daylight. As for phone chargers and such, I don't miss them. Having a wired wall phone is a good idea for emergencies; they nearly always work. If all you've got is a cell, make sure you have a car adapter for it; it may not be efficient but at least it will charge.

I have also lived through some nasty storms that took power out for days. If that's a likely thing in your area, back-up generator is a darn good idea. Also some form of back-up heat (most heating systems are electrically dependent). But what you really need to be prepared for such an emergency is practice. It won't do anyone any harm to shut the power of themselves and see how you can cope. You'll get a really good idea of what will be an inconvenience to not have and what will be a serious problem.

solar_dave

Re: "When the Lights Go Out"...

niel wrote: »

dave,
i don't think it is initially needed for a refrigerator or freezer as they can easily keep for a few hours as long as one stays out of it for awhile. i view the lights to be more important, for when the power goes out it will take quite some time for your eyes to adjust to the darkness and even then if it's pitch black with no moonlight, headlights, etc. they will never adjust so you will need something even to find the candles and matches as they are rarely right there when it happens. even a candle nut can hurt themselves before getting to it even when they know where it is.

Well a couple hour outage is an inconvenience, I was thinking the type of time frame of a week or two. I am sitting in my living room and can see five 3 inch diameter candles less than 10 feet away. After 2 week I would start looking for some more permanent alternatives so lets talk about a conversion of the grid tie system to off grid. What is that going to take from a supply standpoint and can you mothball the equipment to get that operational to some degree? The batteries are probably the hard part. Charge controllers and inverters could be shelved.

Eric L

Re: "When the Lights Go Out"...

I was thinking the type of time frame of a week or two.

Living on the Gulf Coast, we've had several outages of this time frame over the last decade, all hurricane related. Frankly, our backup generator was fine for these 1-2 week events, although we did have enough warning to stock up on enough fuel, food, and water beforehand in every case but one (Katrina). My little hobby solar system was nice to have too, but most of the 'heavy lifting' got done with the gen.

Katrina really threw us for a loop and was a nice illustration of the 'you can't prepare for every eventuality' point made above. It exploded to a Cat 5 in the Gulf less than 24 hours before landfall. We thought we were pretty well-prepared and had gone through Ivan the year before relatively well, but Katrina was much harder. A couple of power-related issues that came up with Katrina:

- It was quite a while before gas stations re-opened, and even when they did you could only buy seven gallons at a time (as I recall). To get that you had to wait in line in your car, re-starting the motor and inching forward every few minutes, and using much of the seven gallon allotment in the process.
- Power was out for weeks for us, months for people just 10 miles from us.
- In the days after the storm passed, maggot flies were everywhere. They were drawn to stationary carbon monoxide emitters, for some reason. My gen was coated in them and they kept clogging the air filter, causing it to run rich. I didn't anticipate that last one either, lol.

SteveK

Re: "When the Lights Go Out"...

solar_dave wrote: »

What is that going to take from a supply standpoint and can you mothball the equipment to get that operational to some degree? The batteries are probably the hard part. Charge controllers and inverters could be shelved.

Why not get a battery bank now? Keep it charged and ready for use. I don't think I would choose to disrupt your wonderful grid tied system unless it were required. But without a battery bank you would not be able to be off the grid at all in the dark. The dry batteries still only last 18 months on the shelf. I believe you need to get wet one's and keep them charged if you choose to have something for just in case.

It's that just in case that is not usually cost effective dollar wise. You may never even use them at all. Most people don't consider that sensible. It is, however, prepared.

Like you said, mothball the CC and inverter...

BB.

Re: "When the Lights Go Out"...

Here I am on a solar board -- And I would love to install 700 watts of solar panels, charge controller, 300 watt inverter, and 4x golf cart batteries.

But I am in the middle of a large urban center (San Francisco Bay Area).

I would love to hear from folks in the Gulf Region and Tornado Alley how long should a person/family plan on "shelter in place" in a major population center on a 50'x100' lot/home.

I have water under my property which could be accessed by a relatively shallow well. I have thought many times that should be my first major project for longer term shelter in place.

Having electricity becomes a bit more iffy as a fundamental need. Cell Phone/Cable Internet is only going to last for a few hours or days without utility power. No sewer, no water, etc... I have addressed my "electrical needs" by standardizing on CR 123 batteries (10+ year of storage, a nice $70 flashlight will last at least 2-4 weeks per pair of CR 123 batteries with moderate night time use--multiple power levels). And AA batteries (5 year storage, 48 cells for less than $15) for small radios, more flash lights, etc. And enough fuel to heat food/water.

Past two weeks (of shelter in place "camping style living/cooking with on site stored fuel and food), I would guess I am at the point of either having services restored or having to relocate elsewhere (part of having stored fuel--don't want to use all of my car's fuel running the genset--then not having the option of evacuating). I don't yet see the "value" of setting up my 50'x100' lot+home for months of habitation without electrical power. I am not sure that a metropolitan area will remain habitable (supplies, services) in that case (let alone the government agencies that seem to red-tag homes and force evacuation/even prohibit entry under penalty of law).

For folks that are in more remote areas (such as where Ice Storms can take out an entire region's distribution system)--Power to run the well and keep/cook food (that can be obtained after some travel) seems to be a situation where you can plan for 4-6+ weeks without power (solar becomes an option to reduce fuel transportation and usage--but not sure that solar is a "must have" if extensive power losses only happen once a decade). But even then, for most people, access to a job/savings/etc. is going to become an issue too.

-Bill

Eric L

Re: "When the Lights Go Out"...

I am not sure that a metropolitan area will remain habitable (supplies, services) in that case

I think that's right Bill. Post-Katrina New Orleans was an example of this. Even if your home was not flooded and you avoided being expelled (which you could do, it wasn't that hard apparently), it was a very tough slog. I had several friends and relatives in N.O. who made it through the storm; most lived in the Garden District and their homes were only lightly damaged. But only one (my cousin) wound up staying there through the whole thing. And he only stayed because he had a very strong motive; he wanted to protect his rental properties on which his financial future depended. Everyone else wound up moving in with relatives outside the disaster area within a week or so.

Having electricity becomes a bit more iffy as a fundamental need.

We really needed it for our well pump. We couldn't have stayed without it, unless we had utility water.

BB.

Re: "When the Lights Go Out"...

Eric,

What made it "practical to return" for most people (in your opinion)? Electrical power? Local sources of food and fuel? Sanitation? Or what...

I know that none of that was easy... And that there are still areas probably recovering even today. Having a place to live is one thing, having a job/cash flow is another.

-Bill

SteveK

Re: "When the Lights Go Out"...

I am not from the gulf coast or tornado alley but I do belong to some groups that are mostly from down south. Places like Joplin and greater New Orleans. They take the approach that if there are no properly prepared people to help the needy in those times, the community will suffer far more than if there are. Not every disaster will find it's way in to flood or bury you. All hope is not lost until the FEMA trucks arrive. Stories of strangers being taken-in by strangers abound. It's up to us to make these places inhabitable again. Some stay to help during the darkest hours some have no choice but to flee.

If you can't provide for yourself, or provide assistance to your community, then you are a liability to your community and to FEMA as well. Taking valuable resources from those in greater need vs those who choose to prepare in some meaningful way is not self reliance. That pretty much sums it up I feel. I hope to never be a liability. It may not play out that way.

niel

Re: "When the Lights Go Out"...

solar dave,
yes, i was going by your saying "initially" that what i would immediately need or need firstly soon after the outage would be the light even if only to gather candles and evaluate what is going on. flashlights and such are good initially too, but won't go long term in most cases and i whole-heartedly agree in the long term that refrigeration becomes more of a priority, but priorities can change too. for instance that winter i went through 2 years ago left us without lights and refrigeration of course, but the priority at that point would've been heat. i have a gas boiler, but it needs electric to run the pump and i found myself facing a quick disaster because temps were at -1 degrees f by the time the power came on late that night. after having been without for more than 24hrs and not knowing if the power was going to be put back on any time soon after back to back snow storms and very low temps is very scarey and the food spoiling most certainly wasn't a problem being the house was cooling down and we had frigid temps outside.

the point of forced evictions too is very problematic as your preparations were probably focused within your home. looters can take what you prepped for in your home making it impossible to deal with things when you can return too.

i should add that most people would be a liability as most don't care until it happens.

TnAndy

Re: "When the Lights Go Out"...

Electricity was the very last thing we did in the way of prepping.

The first thing we did when moving "to the farm" was develop a gravity feed spring water system with 3,000gal of storage. Then we worked on growing food.....improving garden space over the years with soil additives like compost, sand, lime, (heavy clay/rock soil), manures, etc, and fencing to keep deer out. Planted orchard.

Cleared acres of timber ( used to build the house and many other buildings using a small band type sawmill ) to create pasture, fenced for some cows and yearly feeder pigs. Dug ponds for raising fish. Still thinning forest to provide firewood, our main source of heat. We keep 2 years of firewood cut ahead.

Recently added an 'auxiliary' kitchen to the back of the garage. (12x22'). Mainly a meat cutting room for processing cow/hog/deer at home, it includes a 6x6 walk-in cooler chilled with a window AC unit, a wood cook stove, and more food storage space.





Finally started on solar couple years ago, and finished it out this past year with a grid tied, battery backup 5.95kw system. It does about 500kw/hrs/month, which with the infeed tariff TVA pays, eliminates our electric bill + a slight check back from the local distributor. In a long term "lights out" world, we could do nicely on 400-500kw/hrs/mo.

When an outage hits, I simply walk out to the garage, and flip the big red handle on the transfer switch, and life goes on.

SteveK

Re: "When the Lights Go Out"...

niel wrote: »

i should add that most people would be a liability as most don't care until it happens.

I agree. It's the biggest challenge. It's been said that there are one million people that call themselves "preppers" in the country. To what degree? Who knows.

I'd like to make something clear after re-reading my posts. I have a bad habit of using "you" when I type in example. This has gotten me into trouble now and then. I hope people know that I target no one directly with my words and "you" is a general statement meaning anyone or everyone and me included...sheesh. I need to work on that.

Andy, that is awesome. Congratulations!

BB.

Re: "When the Lights Go Out"...

Lets say there are 1,000,000 "prepping" households... There are around 300,000,000 in the country.

My smallish suburban city has, lets say, 90,000 people. That would be about 300 "prepper households" (on average) for this city (vs probably, very roughly, ~100 police officers of which maybe 1/4 are on duty at any one time). And about 300 people per prepping household.

Say average family of 3 with 1 family year of food:

3 people *365 days of food / 300 people "in need" = 3.65 days of food

Hardly a drop in the bucket. Most people should be able to survive ~3 weeks without food (vs 3 days without water).

Kind of makes Wyoming seem prudent to even discuss the issue:

CHEYENNE — State representatives on Friday [2/24/2010] advanced legislation to launch a study into what Wyoming should do in the event of a complete economic or political collapse in the United States.

House Bill 85 passed on first reading by a voice vote. It would create a state-run government continuity task force, which would study and prepare Wyoming for potential catastrophes, from disruptions in food and energy supplies to a complete meltdown of the federal government...

If "prepping" causes education--Then that is a good thing. People shoud be prepared to help themselves for at least 3-7 days before help can be brought in. (in my humble opinion).

-Bill

CDN_VT

Re: "When the Lights Go Out"...

TnAndy wrote: »

Mr Tn Andy lives like me.

When I first viewed the picture posted , High handled Hack-Saw on the wall ?? Cook stove self sitting on an external wall , a few other things..Caught the Ford , rear 3pt stuff (Farmer bling) ...

Im Glad C-Coot didn't squash this very informative thread."maggot flies were everywhere. They were drawn to stationary carbon monoxide emitters, for some reason. My gen was coated in them and they kept clogging the air filter, causing it to run rich." who would of thought ? Mr Eric never added in his profile of where he's from..

Twice 1996 -2009 we have had power outage for 2+ weeks , after a few days (My ranch/farm is back & cleaned) Im now thinking of who has no heat , food etc..
Some ask me as Im standing at there door if im from hydro (the power company) ..I ask how are you coping etc. Most have squat , or there is a BBq inside the structure.

I take note of there address , ask for there water cans & mark addy and say I'll come back with them filled. There are lots of young bucks around on quads / snowmobiles that if made aware , they can look on some of the older city folk living a rural dream.If needed I take them a few bagged lunches.

I have a gen set or 3 , 1000,5500 & 20Kva APU system.. Solar is small and in the works for a second larger just for this subject.
Lights are Aladdin kerosene lamps water can be from the APU running the well pump OR a 12 volt bilge pump 12 solar /battery driven shallow well (all storms have wet ground here) for flushing the throne and drinking after a brita quick filter (pre lab tested water from shallow well ).

Heat is Wood here , I store lamp oil , diesel , gas / petrol , LPG for APU gen set.. Cell phone, internet , & even the land lines were out after 4 days, wires downed all over..
Radios are nice to here , but CBC is ~~~?

Survival mode has kicked in for the first week that I have been thru, by the second week , the pattern is sun-up to dusk is chores for the evening of rest till tomorrow.
Food on the Wood stove or , fire the APU up and micro food , suck frezzers fridge and water pump back up.. Wood stove heats our hot water from Nov-april..

Good thread and read.


VT

Panic of a hawk & chickens is the big week adventure

niel

Re: "When the Lights Go Out"...

i would think by the thread title that it is referring to those that are grid tied. off gridders couldn't care less in the beginning. long term outages can affect them in other ways eventually.

there are too many aspects and degrees one can endeavor to take in prepping and nobody is fully prepped for everything. the guy that stocks up on a few gallons of water, has a small propane burner for cooking, of course some food to cook, and a few extra batteries for radios and flashlights could come under the heading of a prepper. on the other end of the spectrum we can see the extent that some here have even gotten to. don't be surprised if cb or ham radio is also in place for some. ham would give the most flexibility for communications as bill and i already briefly discussed some time back. even something as dumb as having a good bicycle on hand could be a vital part of it. it is a very broad spectrum of things that can apply to prepare for an outage of varying degrees.

seeing as how this keeps sliding into the broad spectrum of prepping i will put this up into the opinion area above. the subject title itself is broad in nature so up there it goes.

SteveK

Re: "When the Lights Go Out"...

Yes hardly a drop in the bucket indeed. Considering that many of them don't consider their preps to be all about sharing, there will be some adjustment to that number too. Then, when population density is thrown into the mix (like NYC has a population density of 29,000 per square mile), and the smallish apartments there are not able to store 2000lbs of dry food, the outcome is even more grim.

I think 'coot, Andy and Waynefromnscanada are better positioned for such an endeavor long term. I live in a town of 39,000 and in a population density state of 850 per sq mile. The area is dotted with cities within minutes of us. I only know of a handful of dedicated preppers here. The math is not the most encouraging for us here. But we continue on keeping the faith that there is more good to come of it than bad and there will be more good acts of kindness than bad actors of desperation. We are looking for a little better place to go live if possible but with a business here the cash flow thing is an anchor. Plus, this is home and all...

We do have a place to go if required. We won't leave easily and will need to leave alot behind if we do. That would stink. Like Niel said, it would probably be gone when we returned anyways.

Bill, I like that flashlight. You are always bringing something new to the table like that fiber water filter a couple months ago. Thanks!

BilljustBill

Re: "When the Lights Go Out"...

For folks that are in more remote areas (such as where Ice Storms can take out an entire region's distribution system)--Power to run the well and keep/cook food (that can be obtained after some travel) seems to be a situation where you can plan for 4-6+ weeks without power (solar becomes an option to reduce fuel transportation and usage--but not sure that solar is a "must have" if extensive power losses only happen once a decade). But even then, for most people, access to a job/savings/etc. is going to become an issue too.

Bill,

I've read that most people can handle "The First 96 Hours" in emergency conditions. It's the hours and days after that, where true needs and stress elevate. For many people, Solar power, in our way of thinking, may be too expensive or complicated, but I've seen and used some smaller solar outdoor lighting for indoor help.

Here is a bit of Solar security lighting that Lowes has...It comes on only when tripped and needed:

http://www.lowes.com/pd_134237-85538-SH-7101-WH_4294935637__?productId=1214387&Ntt=solar+lights&pl=1&currentURL=%2Fpl_Lighting%2BFans_4294935637__s%3FNtt%3Dsolar%2Blights&facetInfo=

I have this Solar set (below) to light inside some windows and outside of the white front door of an unwired outbuilding. There is a second set I picked up several years ago at a garage sale for $2, and after replacing the rechargeable batteries, as a Frill, it lights the white ornamental trellis in my veggie garden. Each light is on an 8ft cord and has 3 bright LED's. Don't expect a Spotlight in brightness, but each light pod could be used for reading, and enough light to light a bathroom, or easily move about a dark home. When I changed the 3 "AA" supplied batteries to 2400 mAh capacity, I can get two 8hr runs before charging in a full day of sun. I don't know what the lumen rating is, but you can unplug each light and either use all three, just two, or just one and get triple the battery life. For just $30, this type of solar recharged lighting used for longer emergencies with some sunny days, and should work well. (If you have gathered several bricks of Double-A carbon batteries, as long as you don't expose the solar panel to direct sunlight, those type of batteries can be used to bridge the stormy/cloud-covered days.)

http://www.lowes.com/pd_127456-59179-SPS1-BK-PK3_4294935637__?productId=1214155&Ntt=solar+lights&pl=1&currentURL=%2Fpl_Lighting%2BFans_4294935637__s%3FNtt%3Dsolar%2Blights&facetInfo=

Bill

SteveK

Re: "When the Lights Go Out"...

Niel, I have ushered in more preppers into Amateur radio than I can remember! This is kinda weird too as I am no Elmer. They all seem to lean toward FRS bubble pack radios for comfort tech. Not bad for some instances but they expect much more from them than they get. Technology is an area where most of them lack knowledge. I see so many of those harbor freight panels and "my solar backup" systems purchased and hobbled together. First thing I try to do is send them here to Windsun for real big boy solar/wind training. I'm sure you and Bill, Tony and 'Coot have helped lots of them. This place is da bomb...

The responses Andy got at survival monkey boards shows this to be true. That external Tstat on the chest freezer thing has been around here for years...they wouldn't have learned of it nor thought of it. It's so hard to break the chains of tech and become somwhat fluent in it.

The post was moved. To the OP, I hope you don't hold it against me. I also hope that many people get to read some of the great thought provoking info in this thread and beyond...

Eric L

Re: "When the Lights Go Out"...

What made it "practical to return" for most people (in your opinion)? Electrical power? Local sources of food and fuel? Sanitation? Or what...

Bill, I'd say it was power if the person's home could be occupied. Otherwise it was power + a FEMA trailer, heh.

niel

Re: "When the Lights Go Out"...

steve,
i am aware many hams are here. even the magazine qst is focusing more on solar, but from some articles in the past i can see they really haphazarded things together and needed better education on the applications of solar in general. if i remember rightly one even had a bz controller. i am letting my membership expire in the arrl at this time as i am getting tired of too many articles aimed at new hams while at the same time not wanting to go to the extent of designing and building an hf rig or something big that other mags may carry. i was never into contesting either.

anyway, enough of that as that's too much of a "who cares if i belong to the arrl" thing. i did put this up here not to go against bill, but to allow the subject matter to not be so narrow in scope and to allow its expantion, as i think it should and has already expanded to by everbody's track record so far.

thanks for the referals too.

solar_dave

Re: "When the Lights Go Out"...

Well with the Volts and a pair of Exceltech 1100 watt inverters I think I could make it a couple weeks to a month. By then we would be reduced to can goods & pasta which is still OK. The issue here will be water but I see a new house going in about a block away and they are drilling a well!

So if I decided to get a forklift battery or 2 and charge it with the grid while putting the inverters and solar charge controller on the shelf, what kind of maintenance is it going to require? Cycling? Watering? Life expectancy? Drilling a well is a big expense, perhaps a cistern to be used for irrigation could be pressed into domestic service in the SHF scenario. Really not so sure I would want to stay in place more than a couple weeks as without infrastructure Phoenix was be a nasty place I suspect.

BilljustBill

Re: "When the Lights Go Out"...

solar_dave wrote: »

Well with the Volts and a pair of Exceltech 1100 watt inverters I think I could make it a couple weeks to a month. By then we would be reduced to can goods & pasta which is still OK. The issue here will be water but I see a new house going in about a block away and they are drilling a well!

....... Really not so sure I would want to stay in place more than a couple weeks as without infrastructure Phoenix was be a nasty place I suspect.

Dave,

I'd be interested in hearing how much a water well costs these days and if your neck of the woods has any Deed Restrictions for water wells.

Here in North Central Texas, the drillers charge if they hit water or not. I had a deep well drilled back in 2003. A few hundred feet South of me is a little "Incorporated township" established by the car lot dealers to prevent a larger city, 6 miles away, from Annexing them for city taxes.... If I was within their boundry, the Incorporated Officials said I could drill a well.. IF... I lived on an acre or more... Since they bought out the local private water company, now they have their own water system. They want you to buy from them, so it appears they setup the guidelines to make most property owners do that as most lots are 9/10 of an acre or less... Then, when one "NEW" subdivison was created, the Deed Restrictions said there was to be NO WATER WELLS DRILLED. When one resident did it anyway, the original water Co-Op took him to court which resulted in the well being pulled and plugged....plus court costs...

In 2003, since I'm not in their boundry, a turn-key cost, for the drilling/casing, the tank, pump, piping, and wiring was $21 a foot. So a 500ft. deep well was $10,000.... I kept my 250' weak well to water the grass, garden, trees, and shrubs... Either well will be a burden to use without the grid or an 8kw-10kw gas genny. When we had the old disc electric meter, upon well pump start up, that disc would really spin the first few seconds.... Pushing water up a 1-1/2" pipe for 500 feet, along a 40 ft run, and against a 50/30 lb. tank pressure, the driller said the 220v pump might draw at least 60 amps on startup...

At 8lbs a gallon, hauling water from source to shelter would be one of labor and cost. But, even with 20+ years of shelf life, with freeze dried emergency foods, you've got to have water to eat them. Staying put on your property isn't as simple as most people think.

solar_dave

Re: "When the Lights Go Out"...

BilljustBill wrote: »

Dave,

I'd be interested in hearing how much a water well costs these days and if your neck of the woods has any Deed Restrictions for water wells.

It is so much a foot dry hole or not and they have to go deep last I knew. I am thinking a cistern might be the way to go but with 9 inches of rain a year it is probably only good for a few fills a year.

westbranch

Re: "When the Lights Go Out"...

Possibly incorporate an underground tank, 500 gal., as a cistern and flush it every month or so to keep it fresh...

Steven Lake

Re: "When the Lights Go Out"...

I just thought I'd toss my 2c into this conversation again in regards to the water pump. First off though, I want to say that I haven't done any prepping at all for myself, save for a bugout bag, which pretty much everyone, including FEMA, strongly recommends. It's mostly for two reasons. One, my current location is untenable in a long term survival situation. Give it about one week, maybe two and we'd have to bug out for greener pastures. And two, my relatives, most of whom are farmers, will be providing all of the long term survival needs that I have in exchange for my help on their farms should TSHTF. So with them as my safety net, and with my current home situation, I have no need to prep. Yell if you like, but my relatives are completely fine with that, therefore so am I. ^_^ So I guess in a way I have prepped, but with others doing all the work and me advising.

Anyhow, back to the topic of long term water solutions. The ones I've come up with for my relatives involve two separate elements. The first was windmill pumps. Most of them didn't have one, so I had them install those in the farm yard to help water the animals when the power goes out. As for the house, we have a slightly different solution. It's called a Bison Pump (http://www.bisonpumps.com/) and the thing works like a dream, seriously. They also have a great page with numerous possible ways to install it: http://www.bisonpumps.com/photos-hand-water-pumps.htm

We've put these in every one of the farm houses, and they've actually used them a couple times during previous power outages. It doesn't have a great GPM on it compared to an electric pump, but dang, if given the choice between no water or water, a little extra pumping isn't that bad. Besides, most people could use the added exercise. Our setup at each of the houses is nearly identical to the very top picture shown on the examples page (ie, 2nd link). The only reason we did it that way instead of going with a free standing design is because they can go downstairs, pump this thing for about 15 minutes, and get quite a bit of pressurized water out of it. It's only like 5-10 minutes of water, but it's enough to get the job done in most cases. It also allows them the ability to use the hoses on the garden or wherever they're needed outside without needing to haul buckets around to do the job.

Anywho, that's my little offering to the discussion. I'm also looking to see if there's a way we can add a hose attachment to the windmill pumps outside. The idea with that is simple. If we've got a good wind going, just attach a hose, engage the pump, and you have instant pressurized water with zero physical effort. ^_^

niel

Re: "When the Lights Go Out"...

steven,
imho there's nothing wrong with something purely mechanical in nature as it is an option that does not need power to operate it and it also comes under the conservation heading too. many do forget that human power is a green energy source too. (forgive my green inference here as that is used loosely by many)

i do agree that you are a prepper as you have thought of and worked out some options for you during a bad time. whether you've gone far enough and it works out the way you figured it at the time, who knows? i guess the classification of a prepper can be loosely applied to many as it does entail different things to different people. going by fema it must be at least 3 days, but others may feel it should be a longer time span to qualify as a prepper. it is almost like calling somebody green for putting in solar walkway lights in the same classification as somebody with a dedicated 400w solar setup and somebody running all on solar off grid. varying degrees, but still within definition until other terms or stipulations are encountered and accepted.

niel

Re: "When the Lights Go Out"...

an fyi---i forgot to add that yahoo news picked up on the wyoming disaster legislation briefly. i was going to do a copy and paste of the article, but it went by the wayside before i got the opportunity to do that.

it was present again after revisiting yahoo,
http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/sideshow/wyoming-legislator-david-miller-introduces-doomsday-bill-171845595.html