"When the Lights Go Out"...

BilljustBill

As each of us struggle to learn, fund, start, build, and complete some level of solar electric production, we may think we'll never get there.... Then, when we're there, we wonder if we've done the right thing and if it's enough..

Here's a link with 11 stories about what happens "When the Lights Go Out"...


http://articles.boston.com/2012-02-05/lifestyle/31027793_1_library-doors-town-library-parking-lot

Texas's Electrical Power Predicament

"
http://crash-watcher.blogspot.com/2012/02/texass-electrical-power-predicament.html

For 2012, I assumed the owner-announced shut down of 1186 MW worth of power from two coal-fired plants in the ERCOT area of Texas will occur. Based on this for the month of August, Texas should expect 12 to 17 days with Level 2 conditions leading to industrial load shedding and purchases of emergency power, and, 1 to 11 days of Level 3 conditions with rolling blackouts. The exact number would depend on the extent to which electricity demand stays the same as in 2011 or increases by its traditional 2%.

For 2015, I assumed EPA-estimated or owner-announced shut downs of 8 coal-fired plants amounting to 2,642 MW of power will occur. If Texas had no increase in demand compared to 2011, I estimate 17 days with Level 2 conditions and 11 days with Level 3 conditions, again all during the month of August."


Maybe it will give you some insight to see you're on the right track...:D

Bill

waynefromnscanada

Re: "When the Lights Go Out"...

An EXTREMELY interesting read (all 11 pages) that's right on the mark! Having been involved with the Emergency Measures Organization here in my home province for more than a decade (now retired) I was very aware of these issues, and also aware that the general population don't have a clue. This is an excellent article and I've forwarded the link to several of my more intelligent friends, and the office of our local EMO.
I Highly recommend it's reading, and I thank "BilljustBill" for sharing this with us!

niel

Re: "When the Lights Go Out"...

i too enjoyed the story and only skimmed the 2nd link. yes, we do have power problems and most are spoiled by our power availability and reliability to one point or another (me too to a point) and many just complain when it goes down pointing their fingers at the utility. i'm not saying the utility is faultless, but many of us can do things too to a point as many that frequent this forum know and try to do something about it to whatever degree they can. many don't have the time to do something about the problem let alone even think about the problem (so they may say) and just pooh pooh it saying you are an alarmist right up until it happens to them and then they just complain after that. funny, they would have the time for that complaining. i even advised my congressman on some aspects of re, but i'm afraid it fell upon the eyes of workers meant to read his emails rather than him. my rep is also involved in the doe here in the states, but i'm afraid he isn't that knowledgeable on the matters to properly address the problems we face now let alone have a plan for the future as he is only a politician. even his spoiled butt leaves it basically up the utilities to address and even he would point fingers at them for what they do or don't do without he, himself, doing much to make things better from somebody in a position of power able to do something. (that's as far as i'll go with that one as i don't want to get into the politics of re)

renewables won't totally eliminate our power woes, but it is a good step to take and more needs done in the bigger picture of things. we here do what we can, but even we see that just us having power when most others don't will have a big detrimental effect that would even affect those of us that are off the grid through other product availability and some services interrupted, impeded, or stopped all together that we all rely on. none of us are an island for long.

vcallaway

Re: "When the Lights Go Out"...

I have a thread on here about setting up a battery backup system in my house.

Living in an area with frequent outages tends to make you more prepared. Several of my neighbors hit me up to setup something for them as well. For about $500 you can setup something that makes power outages only a minor inconvenience.

We have since sold that place and are getting ready to start building a new home. One that is designed from the ground up to be efficient and off grid.

TnAndy

Re: "When the Lights Go Out"...

vcallaway wrote: »

For about $500 you can setup something that makes power outages only a minor inconvenience.

OK, I'll bite. What can you set up for 500 bucks that will do more than charge a cell phone, a laptop, and maybe run a couple of LED lights ? Things I'd consider "an inconvenience" would be loss of well water pump, furnace fan/pumps, and so on......I really can't see 500 bucks doing much to stop those losses. Did you miss a zero on that figure ?

BB.

Re: "When the Lights Go Out"...

The simplest/least expensive way to do something like that, either buy or build a UPS and wire in a "protected" sub panel. Run circuits from that sub panel to places in your home where you would like emergency power (refrigerators, some lighting, perhaps near your cordless phone/answering machine base station, etc.). I would recommend using a TSW (true sine wave) inverter (not cheap). You can find Orange (or other color outlets) that you can install to "indicate" a battery backed outlet.

If you "build your own" UPS (uninterruptable power supply), you just need a battery charger, battery bank, inverter, and automatic transfer switch. Note that a standard transfer switch may not be as fast/sensitive as a the circuitry on a true UPS as used for computers--So, a "home made" UPS may cause a desktop computer to reboot during a power hit (I had problems with even true UPS systems allowing a desktop computer to reboot with 1 in 10 real power failures--I could not reproduce the problem in the lab). If you have critical computing applications, I would suggest a laptop computer. Has its own battery/ups function, and use less power too.

You can also purchase Inverter/Chargers that have their own transfer switches built in--Makes the system even easier to wire up.

How much power do you want to supply (watts and hours of outage)?

-Bill

vcallaway

Re: "When the Lights Go Out"...

I used an IOTA 30a automatic transfer switch. I didn't see them on the NAWS store site but this Power Max one should do the trick.

A small breaker box from your local home supply store with a couple of breakers. A 30A feed breaker for your main panel.

Locate what circuits you want to power at all times. For us it was overhead lights (all CFL bulbs), TV & Sat dish (about 100watts) and outlets that power our DSL router, hub and cordless phone (about another 100 watts) and the outlet powering my CPAP in the bedroom. I chose NOT to run the refrigerator on it. There is no need unless and outage is very long. That is what generators are for.

I used a cheap MSW 2k inverter in my house. Bought on ebay for around $200. Picked up an 8D battery at my local budget batteries for $100. The last one I setup for a neighbor used a PROwatt SW 600w inverter and a Xantrex 15a switch. He used a pair of 6v GC batteries from Costco. Inverter: $160 Camping World, Switch: $50 online somewhere and batteries $160 @ Costco. Figure some extra for breaker box and wire. Still around $500 for backup that lasts more than 30 minutes and no beeps.

I had a sprare Xantrex C10 charge controller that I connected to my battery. The input power was a wall wort power supply I had laying around. Never got around to putting a solar panel on it. This setup worked great.

The IOTA switch is a relay. It switches fast enough that the computer, TV etc does not glitch at all. The MSW inverter worked fine on the lights and electronics. It did not play well with the refrigerator. One of the reasons I did not have it on the backup.

Those high priced UPS units for computers are nothing more that an MSW inverter, charger and a few amp hours of AGM battery. Build your own.

niel

Re: "When the Lights Go Out"...

although i agree it can be done fairly cheap, you are forgetting to add a good 3 stage charger or its pv/controller counterpart.

you got an 8d sized battery for $100? was this used or something as i've never heard of them that cheap?

vcallaway

Re: "When the Lights Go Out"...

I got lucky on the battery. Wound up buying 4 of them. The posts were modified so they would slide into a vertical rack with the posts sticking into a buss bar. Made the posts out the side with a bolt and nut instead of the normal battery post on top. Better for my application. I was told they were used in a telco setup. They had a couple of pallets of them and were having a hard time moving them.

Budget Battery is a recycler, they sometimes get some strange configurations. That can translate to bargains.

techntrek

Re: "When the Lights Go Out"...

You can buy used TSW UPSs on Ebay, cheap. You just need to look for something bigger than 2 kw.

Steven Lake

Re: "When the Lights Go Out"...

niel wrote: »

.......many don't have the time to do something about the problem let alone even think about the problem (so they may say) and just pooh pooh it saying you are an alarmist right up until it happens to them and then they just complain after that. funny, they would have the time for that complaining.

Dude, after living in an area with poor electricity reliability, I can totally relate. You very quickly come to understand how much you rely on the grid and how spoiled you are when you find yourself losing power on a regular basis. Oddly though, it's made me change some habits and either add or eliminate some stuff in my life and my house to soften the blow of losing power in hopes that it won't be an issue anymore some day.

On a minor side note, speaking of surviving without power, I've been watching a show called "Doomsday Preppers" on NatGeo and they actually have a number of people on that show with solar and/or wind solutions. Some are homemade, and some aren't. It's actually very interesting to see what they have. The show doesn't go into too much detail on their setups, but anyone with an eye for that stuff can pretty quickly put together what they've done, and possibly how effective it is or will be.

vcallaway wrote: »

I have a thread on here about setting up a battery backup system in my house.

Yeah, we've got a whole house UPS in place now (it's not much, about 4-6 hours at best currently, but we're building!) and are looking at a diversified green energy power plan for the house.

For about $500 you can setup something that makes power outages only a minor inconvenience.

Just read your reply to how you did this. That was quite ingenious. Kinda wish I could have pulled that off. My current whole house UPS has cost me about $5k already. But then again, some of my setup has been done in preparation for the solar and wind elements I intend to add to it later on. I figure if I'm gonna add them at some point, I might as well do it now rather than pay more later on to make the switch over.

We have since sold that place and are getting ready to start building a new home. One that is designed from the ground up to be efficient and off grid.

WOOT! Don't forget to take pictures and give details! I'm really interested in hearing about this!

vcallaway

Re: "When the Lights Go Out"...

Pretty sure this link has been posted before, but it is a good LONG read.
Going Off Grid in East Tennessee

Their adventure helped me convince my wife that it is something we want to do.

niel

Re: "When the Lights Go Out"...

steven,
yes, i have started watching that show. although i don't believe the end is near, some of the points for each scenario should not be ignored either. i think the show would do better to go into more details rather than some of the showmanship bs like an arsenal big enough for many whole platoons when there's only a few people. i am getting tired of seeing long walks. who cares about that so much as they only need to refer to the walk briefly rather than take us on a walk-through. (pun intended) i like to hear of what some people are doing, some of the problems they encountered, and solutions they came up with. for instance on food preservation the one show had somebody coating eggs with mineral oil to give them a shelf life of around 9 months. now i don't like eggs, but that is a wild solution that i never heard of.

vcallaway,
i followed what they were doing too and it never occurred to me that this could be used to convince the other half to do some things too. i guess i never thought of that because i know my other half wouldn't be that interested in reading that for very many pages.:roll: i forgot her name, but i give her allot of credit in taking an active roll in that undertaking and not just her husband.

Steven Lake

Re: "When the Lights Go Out"...

Huh, this is a different story than I remember reading a few years back. In that story a couple went completely off-off grid and tried living 100% pioneer style. (oddly, they succeeded quite well) However, some local prick ended up screwing them out of their original property though a rather shady land deal and the couple had to move to a new location and start over. Thankfully, despite all the heartache, they got the new place setup and running 100% old school. It was kinda interesting. But this story is no less interesting either. A brand new setup going 100% off grid from the start is very neat. Still not done reading, but I will definitely have some good fun going through all this.

niel

Re: "When the Lights Go Out"...

steven,
you lost me somewhere as i was talking to you about the show doomsday preppers.

peakbagger

Re: "When the Lights Go Out"...

Doomsday Preppers reminds me of a lot of the hype pre milenium. I saw quite a few solar, bulk food and survival products sold for cheap after nothing happened in 2000. Heck I got my generator that way.

niel

Re: "When the Lights Go Out"...

"Doomsday Preppers reminds me of a lot of the hype pre milenium."

well, at least the title does. maybe they should've called it emergency preppers as it tends to hit the fan in select areas rather than imply that it's the end of the world.

now having the lights go out can be an emergency or not, but it is certainly the reason many of us got into solar for.

bmet

Re: "When the Lights Go Out"...

niel wrote: »

steven,
yes, i have started watching that show. although i don't believe the end is near, some of the points for each scenario should not be ignored either. i think the show would do better to go into more details rather than some of the showmanship bs like an arsenal big enough for many whole platoons when there's only a few people. i am getting tired of seeing long walks. who cares about that so much as they only need to refer to the walk briefly rather than take us on a walk-through. (pun intended) i like to hear of what some people are doing, some of the problems they encountered, and solutions they came up with. for instance on food preservation the one show had somebody coating eggs with mineral oil to give them a shelf life of around 9 months. now i don't like eggs, but that is a wild solution that i never heard of.

vcallaway,
i just her husband.

or one could just buy powdered eggs with a shelf life of 2 years

Steven Lake

Re: "When the Lights Go Out"...

niel wrote: »

steven,
you lost me somewhere as i was talking to you about the show doomsday preppers.

lol. Sorry, what you saw was my reply to vcallaway in regards to his post about "Going Off Grid in East Tennessee". Apparently part of my post went missing. Probably user error on my part. ^_^;; As for me prepping, about all I dare do around here is a bugout bag. Why? Well, shelter in place really isn't an option for me here given my location, so if TSHTF for real, I'd immediately bail and head over to my dads. So in the end the show Doomsday Preppers isn't very useful to me from a practical standpoint of disaster survival. However, it does provide some neat tips for long term food storage that I can put to use. If nothing else it'd reduce the amount of spoilage I have. It also makes some good entertainment.

niel wrote: »

well, at least the title does. maybe they should've called it emergency preppers as it tends to hit the fan in select areas rather than imply that it's the end of the world.

now having the lights go out can be an emergency or not, but it is certainly the reason many of us got into solar for.

Yeah, I agree that the whole "Doomsday Preppers" title is a little much, but given that they're starting to dial up all this 2012 end of the world hype, that's not too surprising. The world of TV these days has been completely lost to the sensationalists. (*rolls eyes*)

peakbagger wrote: »

Doomsday Preppers reminds me of a lot of the hype pre milenium. I saw quite a few solar, bulk food and survival products sold for cheap after nothing happened in 2000. Heck I got my generator that way.

Hey, I'm hoping for something similar myself. I'm always up for saving a few bucks.

bmet wrote: »

or one could just buy powdered eggs with a shelf life of 2 years

I've actually been looking for someone who sells them locally, as the online sellers are totally ripping people off. I mean, come on, they charge you 2x's the going rate for eggs, then charge you $30-$60 for shipping!? Not happening. If there were a bulk food store in my area (Michigan) that sold powdered eggs by the can, I'd be all over it, because I'd certainly never pay the highway robbery prices I'm seeing online.

TnAndy

Re: "When the Lights Go Out"...

Honeyville grain has #10 cans of dried whole eggs ( = 80 large eggs ) for 18.99.....which is almost what you pay in a store per dozen.

http://store.honeyvillegrain.com/powderedwholeeggscan.aspx

Shipping is flat rate $4.99 for 1 can or a 100.

They have a LOT of good stuff....their freeze dried strawberries are awesome !

niel

Re: "When the Lights Go Out"...

bmet wrote: »

or one could just buy powdered eggs with a shelf life of 2 years

you are right if you have it cheaply available to you as steven pointed out. i was only giving an example of the kind of info i would be interested in seeing rather than how far some lady has to walk in a questionable crime area. under bad circumstances all areas are questionable and potentially ripe for crime and is another aspect of course, but this isn't what interests me. bugging out with potential crime around you can be worse than staying put imho so i better have a real good reason to leave.

i think both types of options for the eggs to be good advice and other food aspects would be nice to hear of whether it's for doomsday or not and i'll go as far as to say emergency or not too as this long shelf life could save on normal food bills too. i'm sure the aspect concerning food is a wide open subject as it could entail from knowing what to buy in a food store, to growing your own food with both possibly needing the shelf life extended, but other tidbits and general advice concerning harder times is good to delve into as well and the nature of the emergency does dictate some courses of action or inaction and the duration and the extent of events can be a big factor as well. we see this when we talk of power outages as a generator is fine when the duration does not go for weeks on end unless there's fuel available for the generator to purchase. don't forget the greedy nature of some people too that may jack prices up to take advantage of the event or your misfortune. that makes off grid solar ideal in that it takes out any external dependencies with the exception of having some sun.

as far as prepping for a doomsday thing goes that is impossible to prepare for by the very definition of doomsday. under a doomsday scenario if i have the time i'd say some prayers and then bend over and kiss my behind goodbye. now preparing for an emergency is a difficult thing to do and one almost always will overlook an aspect or possibility or something will go wrong, but the more you do the better your odds you'll have it covered. we have had many come here preaching the end is near thing, which as i said i don't believe, but i do admit that things are more pronounced than times past in some ways with possibilities for some very rough times.

as a society we are more dependent on food and medicines coming to us rather than taking on things first hand and be able to do for ourselves. electricity is a luxury we've come to depend too. we may not all be prepared for what comes, but expressing the knowledge to others is beneficial so one may know what to do under some circumstances. if i were given a choice between these 2 things i know i would rather want know how to grow and can foods than put aside money and especially gold or silver that would be either stolen from you or the prices jacked out of site for items you need. i suppose it is another aspect of probability though to cover all possibilities as one never really knows what will be needed or good at the time. i view some of this as an aspect of conservation too and opens a wide range of things to be considered for an emergency.

waynefromnscanada

Re: "When the Lights Go Out"...

Re preparing for an emergency, we had a big storm here today, close to 2 feet of heavy damp snow, power out over large areas, and some roads blocked. All my outside lights are on, but perhaps I should shut them off so as not to build up hate. Haha
On a more serious note, my Uncle needs power, has a generator but had no gas. Drove 20 miles looking for gas but the gas station had no power either, so couldn't pump. He finally managed to get a little gas from his son, who is also without power and needs to run his own generator. It seems "normal" to assume that nothing will go wrong today, or this week, and there'll always be plenty of time to prepare. WRONG!!!!!!!!!!!
Meanwhile my batteries are up full and the little turbine down in the brook just keeps on humming. I'm living the dream.

niel

Re: "When the Lights Go Out"...

wayne,
i'm glad you have what you do for power, but let's take this further. some time down the road you will need things from the stores and they will not be open as they don't know how to do business without electricity. are you that well stocked of food and fuels that you won't need to? if the problem exists long enough even you will find yourself doing without. the farther out the problem exists it does have an impact on food stuffs and products being delivered to your area and all other areas. no power means no fuel sales or retail sales. how long can you be the island before it impacts you is my question?

mikeo

Re: "When the Lights Go Out"...

how long can you be the island before it impacts you is my question?

Maybe Wall Mart is the answer. When a tornado ripped through my county a few years back taking out the only transmission line that supplied the county, also hitting our hospital taking out the front entrance as well as the generator backup power station. Wall Mart drove two huge diesel generator trucks down, one to run the local Walmart, and another to get the hospital power back on. The county was without power for around 3 weeks. Wall Mart was the only game in town for those 3 weeks where one could buy gas or diesel as well as groceries. Boy were they crowded!

waynefromnscanada

Re: "When the Lights Go Out"...

niel wrote: »

wayne,
i'm glad you have what you do for power, but let's take this further. some time down the road you will need things from the stores and they will not be open as they don't know how to do business without electricity. are you that well stocked of food and fuels that you won't need to? if the problem exists long enough even you will find yourself doing without. the farther out the problem exists it does have an impact on food stuffs and products being delivered to your area and all other areas. no power means no fuel sales or retail sales. how long can you be the island before it impacts you is my question?

Well I guess I'm a weird one, I have two full freezers, both powered off grid, a root cellar that still has with several months worth of vegies from last years garden, wood heat when required, and my own water well. To be honest, I have more or less a years food supply in reserve, gradually built up over a number of years. Not so much for the proverbial Doomsday, but when things go on sale, I get several at the better price. Perhaps I'm a horder. Hahaha But there is a good side to it. It's not wasted money, and a few less things to worry about. Like living off grid, it's a way of life, and it shocks me to see my neighbors living hand to mouth, with no thought of tomorrow, while they blow their money on big expensive toys that in the end, mean nothing.

waynefromnscanada

Re: "When the Lights Go Out"...

mikeo wrote: »

Maybe Wall Mart is the answer. When a tornado ripped through my county a few years back taking out the only transmission line that supplied the county, also hitting our hospital taking out the front entrance as well as the generator backup power station. Wall Mart drove two huge diesel generator trucks down, one to run the local Walmart, and another to get the hospital power back on. The county was without power for around 3 weeks. Wall Mart was the only game in town for those 3 weeks where one could buy gas or diesel as well as groceries. Boy were they crowded!

Some good points there "mikeo". Our local hospital has a diesel backup generator that can probably run for months non stop, complete with a large fuel supply. Several of our volunteer fire departments have diesel generators that were taken from light houses when they were shut up and demolished. These generators can run non-stop got a year, just add fuel. These fire halls can be set up as comfort centers for those needing shelter etc. In fact, two of them have tonight initiated their emergency plan and have opened their halls as comfort centers for people stranded, or without power because of today's storm. Food however is a different thing. So much of our food now comes from China, and if those transportation links get shut down for whatever reason, we as a people are in trouble! And that food supply problem is getting worse by the day. A bomb waiting to explode.

niel

Re: "When the Lights Go Out"...

ah hospitals is a good point for if you need them and there's no power there then you are out of luck. as to walmart putting a genny in the store and hospital i feel was a very smart move on their part. they not only get the business when nobody else wants to get or rent a generator to run their business they also get great pr.

so wayne, even though you have all of this the point is, you still aren't an island as the need for medical when there's no power for hospitals or gasoline for the paramedics at some point can put you in a bad spot. yes, you are more prepared than most, but you can't account for everything that may roll your way. police and fire departments will also be in a bad way as they don't go for planning anything long term either if they have anything in place at all. not every scenario is planable, but odds are for most things you are far better off and will go for a long while. at some point you will no longer be an island if the emergency should go long term enough to deplete your supplies. you may get robbed of some of them or you may take in some people out of the goodness of your heart. there are too many variables to get complacent.

bmet

Re: "When the Lights Go Out"...

my mother told me that she might have to buy bullets for her guns. this comes from a country girl who hunted rabbits for dinner as a child. she still has the.22 rifle.
its her impression of the times we live in, that neighbors will be looking to survive, and its better not to advertise resources.

waynefromnscanada

Re: "When the Lights Go Out"...

bmet wrote: »

its better not to advertise resources.

You have a good point.
Actually I've only spilled my guts on the food subject, to the folks on this form. On the other hand I wanted to keep my wee hydro affair a secret from the local community. Sometimes, as you suggested, the less they know the better. However, a couple of people saw it, and now a couple of years later, I'm totally shocked at the number of people, some who don't really know me, who not only know about it, but know about it in DETAIL! One guy not from the area, recently was telling me about it, explaining it to me, not realizing he was speaking with the actual owner. Rather stunned, I just played along with him as if I didn't know, and the details came spilling out! Gotta say I was really shocked. Not only had word got around, but the details had remained accurate! Wow!

niel

Re: "When the Lights Go Out"...

waynefromnscanada wrote: »

You have a good point.
Actually I've only spilled my guts on the food subject, to the folks on this form. On the other hand I wanted to keep my wee hydro affair a secret from the local community. Sometimes, as you suggested, the less they know the better. However, a couple of people saw it, and now a couple of years later, I'm totally shocked at the number of people, some who don't really know me, who not only know about it, but know about it in DETAIL! One guy not from the area, recently was telling me about it, explaining it to me, not realizing he was speaking with the actual owner. Rather stunned, I just played along with him as if I didn't know, and the details came spilling out! Gotta say I was really shocked. Not only had word got around, but the details had remained accurate! Wow!

wayne,
now that's scary. i think in an emergency they may make a beeline for your place whether you invite them or not. that may mean you need more security measures, but the odds are that some will make it to you.

i told my other half that if it gets bad and we have electric yet due to solar that it would need to be blacked out (aka windows blocked of letting out the light) so the neighborhood can't see any of the lights and to be honest i haven't anything in place to implement total blockage on all windows. lights are a beacon to everyone good and bad. now i have a bit of a backup plan in that the immediate neighborhood has seen lights on here for minor outages and i can just tell them it was the various computer backups i have and they only last so long. i would then say that's why there are a few lights on now and they can have one of my backups to use if they can find a battery for it. odds are they don't have a battery, but if they did i'd give them one of the backups. either way they'd probably leave as they'd figure my computer backups battery would be nearly exhausted or they'd be looking for a battery for the backups i'd give them. too many come and i'd point a finger to the ones that got my backups.

Steven Lake

Re: "When the Lights Go Out"...

Hey, if you guys haven't seen "The Colony", you probably should. I just got around to watching season 1 of it, and they really come up with some interesting green energy solutions. For one, they salvage some solar panels from an abandoned highway road sign and put those to use, and do quite a few other things. Now sure, what they had in total batteries to use vs solar panels wasn't that great a combination, as they had way too much battery and far too little solar panels for their setup. But since they decided to keep their lights as "emergency use only", they were pretty much fine with the small setup they had.

Now my only question is, what was the inverter they were using. I liked that one. It even told you the total amount of energy left in your bank, the voltages, everything right on the inverter. It was big enough to be a 2-3k inverter, but I couldn't see what brand or model. Did anyone recognize it? Or what about the solar panels? Sure, I'll probably never end up in that kind of situation, but that doesn't mean I can't be curious about their setup.