Solarpaneltalk.com --Disagreement--

Justin Chew · February 2012

Good afternoon all,

To properly disclose, I work for a company SpinRay Energy. That being said, I am not trying to sell anything here. I'm just posting this in defense of some of our customers and potential customers who have been PERMANENTLY BANNED from another blog/forum "www.solarpaneltalk.com" simply by asking questions about our DeckPower solar kits. Also, several people have stated that they posted responses to lies that Russ the moderator was saying, and all of the responses posted have been mysteriously deleted! Obviously, it seems this Russ and his site have their own agenda and won't come foward with what it is. Once again, I am NOT selling anything here, just defending my customers and defending the company I work for, from people who are trying to scare them away. I have no problem with people asking questions of our products, but to lie and ignore to them for unjust reasons is not fair, and we don't appriciate it. To anyone who wants "Russ" to be held accountable and explain in detail why he is spreading lies saying our products are "deadly and stupid", create an ID at solarpaneltalk.com and post your thoughts on the forum "Easy Solar?" I believe everyone deserves to be heard. The specific forum I have heard complaints about from several people is titled "Easy Solar?" Just because someone is an administrator, that doesn't give them the right to delete people because they ask questions about our products. If you feel after reading this that Russ is being unfair please use your voice, or keyboard lol

BB. · February 2012

Re: Solarpaneltalk.com --Disagreement--

I am not sure what you are talking about... If you are typing about "Russ", I believe he runs a another solar forum out of Europe--But he is not a moderator here. We do not want to use this forum for arguments/disagreements that people may have with another forum.

If there is something being posted on this board that you believe is unfair, please feel free to post the information here or send me (or one of the other moderators) a PM and we will look into it.

In general, we here do not allow advertising. We are all volunteers here (other than the two Admins "Windsun" and "Rick" who are with NAWS, our host).

-Bill B. Moderator

PS: Do you have an UL File Number for your products--A quick search of UL did not bring anything up. From your website:

ALL MICROINVERTERS ARE UL 1741 COMPLIANT

Justin Chew · February 2012

Re: Solarpaneltalk.com --Disagreement--

BB. wrote: »

I am not sure what you are talking about... If you are typing about "Russ", I believe he runs a another solar forum out of Europe--But he is not a moderator here. We do not want to use this forum for arguments/disagreements that people may have with another forum.

If there is something being posted on this board that you believe is unfair, please feel free to post the information here or send me (or one of the other moderators) a PM and we will look into it.

In general, we here do not allow advertising. We are all volunteers here (other than the two Admins "Windsun" and "Rick" who are with NAWS, our host).

-Bill B. Moderator

Thank you Bill, so far I have heard good things about this forum! I don't know either who this "Russ" is but it says he lives in Turkey, but they make it sound as if it's a U.S. site. If it is Europe, then why would they care about products here in America? Sounds shady. Maybe because the Solarpaneltalk.com sight is owned by a private solar company they have an interest in ripping anyone else's products. Anyways, I understand your policy of not advertising here, just seeing if anyone has had problems with this guy because he banned my user ID, along with other peoples so there is no way to respond to him directly, but a website is coming to expose the truth soon. Thanks for your time

BB. · February 2012

Re: Solarpaneltalk.com --Disagreement--

Justin,

I guess I should clarify--"Russ", as I understand, is posting from Turkey--I don't know where the forum he moderates is "home based". Russ is probably from North America but works in Turkey--So he has interests here, and has posted here quite a bit (although, not recently).

We have enough to keep ourselves busy with our corner of the world here.

-Bill

Justin Chew · February 2012

Re: Solarpaneltalk.com --Disagreement--

BB. wrote: »

Justin,

I guess I should clarify--"Russ", as I understand, is posting from Turkey--I don't know where the forum he moderates is "home based". Russ is probably from North America but works in Turkey--So he has interests here, and has posted here quite a bit (although, not recently).

We have enough to keep ourselves busy with our corner of the world here.

-Bill

Oh ok, I understand now lol! I agree, we have enough going on here to not worry about someone from Turkey

Photowhit · February 2012

Re: Solarpaneltalk.com --Disagreement--

Well Justin, Your product isn't sold here, so typically a rational discussion of your product is permitted, that said a 120V micro inverter with the ability of backfeeding, which is what I read your 'plug and play' to mean. Does NOT sound like it is a safe product, indeed my new electronic meter is not designed to run backward, and I have no clue to weather your product wouldn't harm it. Like to see what UL info there is available.

icarus · February 2012

Re: Solarpaneltalk.com --Disagreement--

What the hell is "UL Compliant"? Does that mean UL LISTED? I have never heard of a product being UL "compliant".

I notice that the PV is cited as UL "Listed", the inverters are "compliant.

Tony

BB. · February 2012

Re: Solarpaneltalk.com --Disagreement--

And to add--We do allow discussions of products that are sold by NAWS too... There has been quite a bit of talk (good and bad) about Outback, Xantrex, and others. Skystream was being sold by NAWS as the product started getting hammered on the forum (and NAWS did stop selling Skystream, partially based on what was posted here).

What we try to follow is the No-Advertising rule for products. That is mostly directed towards new posters who try to sell some product and really do not add to the discussions (i.e., poster says that this Seattle wind turbine installer is great--and the poster's IP Address is from the Philippines).

Just stick to the facts and it makes moderating much easier for us and nicer for everyone to read.

-Bill

niel · February 2012

Re: Solarpaneltalk.com --Disagreement--

to add to what bb has said, you must also keep it from getting to be a personal attack and name calling.

mike95490 · February 2012

Re: Solarpaneltalk.com --Disagreement--

Justin,
I am also a mod at "the other forum", which is based in USA. Russ is working in Turkey. Most of the thread I believe you are referring to http://www.solarpaneltalk.com/showthread.php?5957-Easy-solar , is about Plug-In "panels". There was A lot OF DISCUSSION where you and the "customers" were asked several times for the UL listing number, so it could be looked up, and verified, as this would be a brand new product, that we've never seen, if it were truly approved and legal. But the number was never presented, and many of the posts were deleted as spam when the posters were banned. Some of the posts live on in quoted sections of other posts there.
But it boiled down to posters making claims, asking questions as shills would ask, but never, was a UL listing number offered, so all the folks "pushing plug in deck mount compliant UL" appear to have been banned. bksunny45 still has some amusing posts left in the thread.
Our green-washing tolerance there is quite low. And feel free to complain to other forums about the awful moderators that try to keep things on the up-and-up.

And other posters, some are pretty "curt" and to the point. Often blunt, and they scare the easily offended (hey - it's only words on a screen) but never really wrong.

Got that UL listing # for us yet?

Mike

russ · February 2012

Re: Solarpaneltalk.com --Disagreement--

Hi - Russ Here, (or Russ Moron according to the person complaining)

The person complaining has used 5 different alias (Justin Chew is number 6) from the same IP address over the past months to try to push the product that I know of - I have seen the company trying to advertise the product on blogs around the world - always different names but same company.

None of this companies customers have been banned for supporting the product - all posts have come from the same IP address - unless they get someone to post something from the companies office.

I happen to be American and live in Turkey - I appreciate proper standards and codes all the more for the experience as there are basically none that are followed here. The forum is based in the US and owned by a US company - I am free labor and nothing more.

If this product can be shown to be UL listed as a package (not individual components) and safe to use I will be happy to say I am wrong.

Showing a plug in for a normal wall fixture as the outlet of the unit does not seem kosher as far as I know.

Indicating that you can simply plug it into a wall socket and later explaining that if you want to do it more proper to the buss bar in a panel with proper safety features I don't consider to be telling the story correctly.

Best Regards,
Russ

TnAndy · February 2012

Re: Solarpaneltalk.com --Disagreement--

Justin Chew wrote: »

Just because someone is an administrator, that doesn't give them the right to delete people because they ask questions about our products.

Actually, Justin, the administrators and owners of a forum have the right to delete posts and ban anybody for anything....it's their property and their rules.....same as if you came into my house, and I simply don't like your looks and toss you into the street.

From a practical standpoint, they don't, of course, since the purpose is to encourage rational discussion of whatever the subject.

Deletes or bans are usually the result of spam, or attempting to use a forum to advertise something in competition with the forum's own supporter, which is simply theft, or the post degrades into a bunch of school girl comments about parental lineage, or lack of medications. As a forum moderator on another unrelated site, I've seen it all. IF one has issues with a particular forum, one should modify their bookmarks with the DELETE key, and don't go there.....because to run whining to another forum to complain about the first one smacks a lot of pettiness.

Justin Chew · February 2012

Re: Solarpaneltalk.com --Disagreement--

Photowhit wrote: »

Well Justin, Your product isn't sold here, so typically a rational discussion of your product is permitted, that said a 120V micro inverter with the ability of backfeeding, which is what I read your 'plug and play' to mean. Does NOT sound like it is a safe product, indeed my new electronic meter is not designed to run backward, and I have no clue to weather your product wouldn't harm it. Like to see what UL info there is available.

Hello Photowhit...how are you? Not sure what you mean, could you explain why a UL listed 120V microinverter does NOT sound like a safe product? As far as a meter being designed/not designed to run backwards, that is something the local utility company would know. Most utilities we've contacted want a simplified interconnection agreement with the customer, so if they have a concern over the type of meter you have they will certainly mention it at that time. Chances of backfeeding with a system this small is highly unlikely anyway. The UL certs are available to us at the company, but obviously until we are no longer concerned about other companies trying to copy/steal our products/ideas then it would be foolish of us to release the UL#'s just so a few biased and ridiculously skeptical forum admins believe us. It won't be long before that info is released, so soon enough everyone will see that the products are safe.

BB. · February 2012

Re: Solarpaneltalk.com --Disagreement--

I am cross linking to this thread/set of posts:

http://forum.solar-electric.com/showthread.php?3874-Solar-Hype&p=105875#post105875

Justin Chew and Jack Garfield Jr. share the same IP Address.

Normally, we would ban and delete sock puppets (and their IP Address) that use our forum to advertise product, let alone advertise illegal/unsafe practices (plug and play solar arrays as SpinRay appears to do).

SpinRay SR120-MI and SR240MI Plug & Play Solar Panel micro-inverters

These micro inverters are also incorporated in our "DeckPower" and "LawnPower" kits

ALL MICROINVERTERS ARE UL 1741 COMPLIANT

...

TO MEET NEC CODES WE RECOMMEND INSTALLING AN AFCI RECEPTICLE WITH A CONTINOUS USE COVER. WE ALSO RECOMMEND USE OF A DEDICATED 240 VOLT LINE CONNECTED TO YOUR ELECTRIC PANEL VIA A 15 AMP FUSE OR BREAKER. INVERTER MUST BE GROUNDED

As of this time, there is no legal (and safe) method (that I know of) that allows "Plug and Play" solar installation, "on-deck" mounting or on "lawn" mounting of Grid Tied Power Systems (there are all sorts of code requirements for conduit, dedicated circuits that do not use "standard" power plugs, limits access with locked fencing/mounting on roof/physical mounting requirements to prevent solar panels+120/240 VAC wiring from becoming airborne in a wind storm, etc.). Or that permit un-LISTED (UL/ETL/TUV/etc.) GT inverters to be installed/connected to a commercial power system.

At the very least, upon discovery of an un-permitted GT solar installation, the Utility can disconnect the power meter, the local building department and Red-Tag your home, and your insurance can refuse to pay fire/damage/injury claims because of overloaded wiring and/or having no building permits, and you can be held personally liable if there is any damage/injuries caused by your system.

Is any of the above guaranteed to happen if you install a plug&play GT solar system--No. But there is nothing that stops it from happening either.

-Bill

Justin Chew · February 2012

Re: Solarpaneltalk.com --Disagreement--

TnAndy wrote: »

Actually, Justin, the administrators and owners of a forum have the right to delete posts and ban anybody for anything....it's their property and their rules.....same as if you came into my house, and I simply don't like your looks and toss you into the street.

From a practical standpoint, they don't, of course, since the purpose is to encourage rational discussion of whatever the subject.

Deletes or bans are usually the result of spam, or attempting to use a forum to advertise something in competition with the forum's own supporter, which is simply theft, or the post degrades into a bunch of school girl comments about parental lineage, or lack of medications. As a forum moderator on another unrelated site, I've seen it all. IF one has issues with a particular forum, one should modify their bookmarks with the DELETE key, and don't go there.....because to run whining to another forum to complain about the first one smacks a lot of pettiness.

You're right, they (administrators) do have a "right" to do it legally because it is their site, however if they are going to ban someone for "spam" they should at least leave the comments made, including their own, so that everyone could read what was posted. If they had nothing to hide, they would have. The "administrators" made several unfair insults to the company's product without even knowing the technology behind the product, telling people that it will definately burn down their house and kill them, along with adjectives like "stupid". I tried to respond and explain why the product is safe, but then I recieved a nasty response and then was permanently banned. "Whining to another forum" and "pettiness"? Maybe to you, but if you have read the things I have from these administrators, you might disagree.All I was trying to do was have a nice discussion about solar to gauge people's interest and all they did was take childish shots at the company, yet they are not biased? Yeah right!

BB. · February 2012

Re: Solarpaneltalk.com --Disagreement--

Justin Chew wrote: »

Hello Photowhit...how are you? Not sure what you mean, could you explain why a UL listed 120V microinverter does NOT sound like a safe product? As far as a meter being designed/not designed to run backwards, that is something the local utility company would know. Most utilities we've contacted want a simplified interconnection agreement with the customer, so if they have a concern over the type of meter you have they will certainly mention it at that time. Chances of backfeeding with a system this small is highly unlikely anyway. The UL certs are available to us at the company, but obviously until we are no longer concerned about other companies trying to copy/steal our products/ideas then it would be foolish of us to release the UL#'s just so a few biased and ridiculously skeptical forum admins believe us. It won't be long before that info is released, so soon enough everyone will see that the products are safe.

For any product that UL/TUV/etc. Listed--The label must list the Mfg. Name, the NRTL used, and the File Number. This can all be verified with various On-Line databases--Such as this one from UL.

From your own website, you use these pictures to advertise the GT interconnect:

Attachment not found.

(above) OUTPUT plug on our SR240-AC2 240 volt AC Mono Panel and Inverter "KIT"

Attachment not found.

(above) OUTPUT plug on our SR240-AC1 120 volt AC Mono Panel and Inverter "KIT"

Those plugs can never be legal Grid Tied / UV / Outdoor LISTED type of connections for permanent wiring or connectioning a "power source" (such as a GT inverter or Generator). And, if exposed to Sun for a year or so, the insulation will (most likely) degrade and eventually become unsafe.

Since UL/etc. Marks must be on every product shipped, there is no reason that anyone would keep this a trade secrete. If a company does not release the information prior to sale, then it would be best to assume that no such Listing exists.

-Bill

icarus · February 2012

Re: Solarpaneltalk.com --Disagreement--

Justin Chew wrote: »

Hello Photowhit...how are you? Not sure what you mean, could you explain why a UL listed 120V microinverter does NOT sound like a safe product? As far as a meter being designed/not designed to run backwards, that is something the local utility company would know. Most utilities we've contacted want a simplified interconnection agreement with the customer, so if they have a concern over the type of meter you have they will certainly mention it at that time. Chances of backfeeding with a system this small is highly unlikely anyway. The UL certs are available to us at the company, but obviously until we are no longer concerned about other companies trying to copy/steal our products/ideas then it would be foolish of us to release the UL#'s just so a few biased and ridiculously skeptical forum admins believe us. It won't be long before that info is released, so soon enough everyone will see that the products are safe.

Sorry Bub, or Justin or what ever. A UL listing number is a matter of public record. If you chose not to supply it to potential customers that is your business, but to this experienced nose,,something smells fishy. EVERY UL listed product carries a lable with the listing number. Releasing the UL info does nothing to compromise your design. (any EE with any experience could reverse engineer most products in five minutes, given the willingness to do so. )

Me thinks you are not what you say your are, and indeed your history shows you are trying to pull a scam. Your problem here, is that most users here are pretty sharp, and know scams when they see them. (notice no one takes about BZ controllers for example?)

Please feel free to back up with you say with citation, and we will change our opinion, barring that, you will find yourself on e again exiled.

Tony.

john p · February 2012

Re: Solarpaneltalk.com --Disagreement--

Justin Chew,trying to make it appear to be some conspiricy that a person who lives in Turkey that moderates a USA site is just rediculous. Why does the mod have to live in USA to mod a USA site???
You make the claims that the UL numbers for your inverters will be made available. OK so lets see the proof when its available.It appears to me that they are NOTapproved at the moment so why you selling them ?Are you going to compensate the purchaser if they become faulty and burn the purchasers house down,and the insurance co wont pay out on the fire because of the non approved inverterbeing used.
OH In case your wondering .im not in USA either. Im at the moment in the Philippines. And I sell nothing and dont promote anything from this site or any similar site.
Just like the mods Itry to offer good advice when I can to persons from anywhere asking for it on these sites.

Justin Chew · February 2012

Re: Solarpaneltalk.com --Disagreement--

mike90045 wrote: »

Justin,
I am also a mod at "the other forum", which is based in USA. Russ is working in Turkey. Most of the thread I believe you are referring to http://www.solarpaneltalk.com/showthread.php?5957-Easy-solar , is about Plug-In "panels". There was A lot OF DISCUSSION where you and the "customers" were asked several times for the UL listing number, so it could be looked up, and verified, as this would be a brand new product, that we've never seen, if it were truly approved and legal. But the number was never presented, and many of the posts were deleted as spam when the posters were banned. Some of the posts live on in quoted sections of other posts there.
But it boiled down to posters making claims, asking questions as shills would ask, but never, was a UL listing number offered, so all the folks "pushing plug in deck mount compliant UL" appear to have been banned. bksunny45 still has some amusing posts left in the thread.
Our green-washing tolerance there is quite low. And feel free to complain to other forums about the awful moderators that try to keep things on the up-and-up.

And other posters, some are pretty "curt" and to the point. Often blunt, and they scare the easily offended (hey - it's only words on a screen) but never really wrong.

Got that UL listing # for us yet?

Mike

The UL certs are available to us at the company, but obviously until we are no longer concerned about other companies trying to copy/steal our products/ideas then it would be foolish of us to release the UL#'s just so a few biased and ridiculously skeptical forum admins believe us. It won't be long before that info is released, so soon enough everyone will see that the products are safe. Yes, I understand that you can claim that our products are not UL or we would post that info, but like I said, any businessman would know not to give proprietary type info until the last possible minute. Like I've said already, I tried discussing my complaints to the "awful moderators" but I recieved a petty response and was then banned, along with posts I made discribing why the product was safe, mysteriously. You were not trying to keep things on the "up and up", you didn't like what I had to say and desided to hide it from everyone. It's that simple, but that's your choice. I took my complaint to this forum because it is a solar related topic, and as you can see I make no effort to sell anything here, I just think that people deserve the right to read everything and make their own decision, and in order to do that they need to hear from others, not just people who are completely opposed to the idea of plug and play.

solar_dave · February 2012

Re: Solarpaneltalk.com --Disagreement--

I don't understand how releasing your UL listing number could possibly be anything proprietary. If you are so concerned and have something special you should file for a patent to protect your rights. UL Listing is the only way I would even consider your product a viable installation. I am pretty sure my Code guys would frown upon a plug in inverter. There is nothing to preventing one from overloading a circuit by doing stupid stuff.

icarus · February 2012

Re: Solarpaneltalk.com --Disagreement--

No one is opposed to plug and play per we,, just show us a legal/listed installation hardware config and we are all ears. Like I said, continue on this road , and you will find your self in the woods,, again.

Tony

Justin Chew · February 2012

Re: Solarpaneltalk.com --Disagreement--

icarus wrote: »

Sorry Bub, or Justin or what ever. A UL listing number is a matter of public record. If you chose not to supply it to potential customers that is your business, but to this experienced nose,,something smells fishy. EVERY UL listed product carries a lable with the listing number. Releasing the UL info does nothing to compromise your design. (any EE with any experience could reverse engineer most products in five minutes, given the willingness to do so. )

Me thinks you are not what you say your are, and indeed your history shows you are trying to pull a scam. Your problem here, is that most users here are pretty sharp, and know scams when they see them. (notice no one takes about BZ controllers for example?)

Please feel free to back up with you say with citation, and we will change our opinion, barring that, you will find yourself on e again exiled.

Tony.

Hello Tony...
Bub? People who buy the system recieve the UL certification papers, but obviously the longer we can go before somebody reverse-engineers the product the better. If we gave the UL info on a forum, it would help competitors sooner. It may smell fishy to you, but it's the truth. Why am I "trying to pull a scam"? If we were only interested in making money we wouldn't even mention the UL approval, like a lot of people on ebay and amazon selling non-UL approved panels and kits. Also, someone questioned UL "compliance" vs "approved" vs "listed". Our products are "UL approved" with official certificates. Any mention of "UL compliant" on the website is the same as UL approved. Also for those concerned about the "recommendations" for proper and safe installation, we are revising the wording to alleve concerns, as it has been mentioned that the product description of "plug and play" is "misleading" and "dangerous". While I disagree with the severity of the claim, it will be updated to be better understood. Obviously as much as some people want to make it sound, we have no interest in selling products that people could get hurt using.

solar_dave · February 2012

Re: Solarpaneltalk.com --Disagreement--

here is a typical UL cert page content. What could possibly more simple.

QPPY.E89993
Power Converters/Inverters and Power Converter/Inverter Systems

Page Bottom
Power Converters/Inverters and Power Converter/Inverter Systems

See General Information for Power Converters/Inverters and Power Converter/Inverter Systems

XANTREX TECHNOLOGY INC E89993
161-G VASCO RD
LIVERMORE, CA 94550 USA

Land vehicle power inverters for recreational and emergency vehicle use, Model HF12-1200UA.

Freedom 10 Series, Fleet Power 1000 Series, Models 81-0109-12, 81-0116-12.

Freedom 20 Series, Fleet Power 2000 Series, Models 81-0202-12, 81-0204-12, 81-0221-12, 81-0223-12.

Freedom 25 Series, Fleet Power 2500 Series, Models 80-0250-1, 81-0250-24, 81-0261-12, 81-0262-12.

Recreational vehicle power inverters, Liberty Series, Model 81 followed by -1010, -1012, -1020, -1021, -1021, -1022, -1510, -1520, -1521, -1522, -1523, -1530, -2000, -2010, -2020, -2021, -2022, -2023, -2030, -2510, -2530, -3010 or -3030, followed by -12.

Recreation vehicle power inverters, Models EMS1800-12, -24, EMS2800-24, HD1800-12, -24, HD2800-12, -24, HF600-12.

Models HF12-1200U, -1200SU, -1200SUR, -2000SU, -2000SUR, -2000U may be followed by W.

Recreational vehicle power inverters, Source Manager 20 Series Models 81-0271-12, 81-0280-12; 25 Series Models 81-0270-12, 81-0281-12; 30 Series Model 81-0282-12.

Justin Chew · February 2012

Re: Solarpaneltalk.com --Disagreement--

icarus wrote: »

No one is opposed to plug and play per we,, just show us a legal/listed installation hardware config and we are all ears. Like I said, continue on this road , and you will find your self in the woods,, again.

Tony

Like I said, as soon as I can supply that info I will, but in the meantime all I am doing is responding to what is being posted, am I not allowed to respond to people posts here? Why am I going to find myself in the woods? I'm not making any untrue claims, I'm saying that the UL info will be released soon, it's not like I gave fake UL cert numbers to fool anyone.

Justin Chew · February 2012

Re: Solarpaneltalk.com --Disagreement--

solar_dave wrote: »

here is a typical UL cert page content. What could possibly more simple.

Yes, it IS simple to copy and paste it, but notice that the info above contains manufacturer's info. As I stated before, we do not wish to give away this info until we have to because we don't want other competitors knowing our manufacturer's info for the panel, micro inverters and cables we use until there is nothing we can do about it. It doesn't seem that complicated to me. Obviously, we will have to release it soon, so everybody can just relax a little, these conspiracy theories are humourous, but I guess since nobody has a plug and play UL approved kit people think it's never coming out. Not trying to get anyone riled up, just doing the best I can at describing the situation. Thank you to this forum for letting an intelligent discussion be heard, I appreciate it.

Justin Chew · February 2012

Re: Solarpaneltalk.com --Disagreement--

john p wrote: »

Justin Chew,trying to make it appear to be some conspiricy that a person who lives in Turkey that moderates a USA site is just rediculous. Why does the mod have to live in USA to mod a USA site???
You make the claims that the UL numbers for your inverters will be made available. OK so lets see the proof when its available.It appears to me that they are NOTapproved at the moment so why you selling them ?Are you going to compensate the purchaser if they become faulty and burn the purchasers house down,and the insurance co wont pay out on the fire because of the non approved inverterbeing used.
OH In case your wondering .im not in USA either. Im at the moment in the Philippines. And I sell nothing and dont promote anything from this site or any similar site.
Just like the mods Itry to offer good advice when I can to persons from anywhere asking for it on these sites.

Hello John, not trying to make a conspiracy out of the "turkey" moderator, I didn't realize until recently that it was a U.S. site, I thought it was based in Turkey as well which seemed odd, but there is nothing wrong with anyone joining the conversation from anywhere in the world, heck we've had people check out our website from all over the place, including Iran AND the Phillippines, although the Phillippines might have been you I suppose lol! I appreciate your advice and comments

jeffkruse · February 2012

Re: Solarpaneltalk.com --Disagreement--

This guy should not be able to make any more posts until he shows a valid UL cert period. He is just peddling snake oil.

BB. · February 2012

Re: Solarpaneltalk.com --Disagreement--

OK, quote the Chapter and Verse of the NEC (current National Electric Code) that allows "plug and play" of a GT solar array into a standard AC outlet on the side of the home.

By the way, UL does not "approve" product. They just test for compliance and offer a manufacturing traceability program (i.e., the supplier of the raw insulation passes a lot certificate to the wire mfg. who then passes their cert. to the distributor who passes their cert. to the end manufacturer who then Marks their product with the NRTL name and file number). The end Label/Mark/File Number is used by the electrician/inspectors/fire inspectors to ensure compliance with local requirements.

-Bill

Justin Chew · February 2012

Re: Solarpaneltalk.com --Disagreement--

jeffkruse wrote: »

This guy should not be able to make any more posts until he shows a valid UL cert period. He is just peddling snake oil.

Instead of banning me from making posts, how about just waiting to see the UL certs for yourself, ONCE again all I am doing is responding to people posting comments on this thread, not "peddling snake oil". If people don't want me to keep posting comments, stop calling bs on here and just wait for the UL certs to make up your mind, why are some people in such a hurry to ban me before giving me any time to post what everyone is asking for, seems odd?

Justin Chew · February 2012

Re: Solarpaneltalk.com --Disagreement--

BB. wrote: »

OK, quote the Chapter and Verse of the NEC (current National Electric Code) that allows "plug and play" of a GT solar array into a standard AC outlet on the side of the home.

By the way, UL does not "approve" product. They just test for compliance and offer a manufacturing traceability program (i.e., the supplier of the raw insulation passes a lot certificate to the wire mfg. who then passes their cert. to the distributor who passes their cert. to the end manufacturer who then Marks their product with the NRTL name and file number). The end Label/Mark/File Number is used by the electrician/inspectors/fire inspectors to ensure compliance with local requirements.

-Bill

Hello again Bill, I could ask you the same in reverse-quote the chapter and verse of the current NEC that disallows "plug and play" of a GT solar array. It's not there. The NEC code does not have guidlines for plug and play at this time, they haven't caught up with the technology available. I'm sure their next update will include it, but as of now it is a grey area. We are working with NEC to write new codes regarding this plug and play aspect, but as you can imagine it's not a simple or quick process. As of now they don't allow or disallow it, it's not even mentioned. The only part of the code that is similar is in regards to roof-mounted systems, which ours are not. We also don't recommend that people plug into a standard AC outlet, it's an AFCI breaker we mention, which is according to NEC code. As far as UL, I understand that they only test for compliance/safety and not approval. The term "UL approved" can be taken to mean "UL compliant" or "UL tested" or "UL listed". It's all splitting hairs, but I never said that UL has approved our kits for people to plug into whatever they want, but that the product was "UL approved". If this is confusing to people maybe we should change our description to "UL Listed", yes?

BB. · February 2012

Re: Solarpaneltalk.com --Disagreement--

Justin,

Just remember, we had the same thing happen a few years ago with SWEA GT inverters... A local (US) distributor was told time and again that the UL Certs were "just around the corner", and that is what he told us. After a few months of this, he just stopped posting.

http://forum.solar-electric.com/showthread.php?6034-swea-grid-tie-starter-kit

And from this thread:

Infinergy wrote: »

The SWEA 250 watt system is close to UL approval, I have received the draft copies of the specs to proof in English, they consider UL approval that close. If you check about on the internet you will find that SWEA really stands behind their product, I know I am a distributor but their commitment to their product has really impressed me over the years.

Personally I am more interested in the 1KW stacked version of the inverter being UL approved for the 1kW wind turbine. Right now for UL required installations we do not have a real product for that market as we start at 2kW with the SWA products.

For those who are unaware, SWEA is best known for its wind products which is what my company is heavily committed to marketing. I have sold many of these little SWEA 250watt inverters and usually to the person who wants to start small without a huge capital outlay. Of course all these small inverters that I have sold doesn't equal the revenue from a single 20kW wind turbine.

Again--If somebody can come up with a NRTL Listed Plug&Play system--More than happy to look at that.

However, even if it is in the NEC--It does not make it safe. Same discussion--different company.

Ground Fault Protection (discussion about NEC/UL DC Arc Fault / Ground Fault requirements)

We have even taken NEC to task about some of their requirements/permitted installations.

-Bill

Solarpaneltalk.com --Disagreement--

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