78 cents per watt is it too good to be true

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  • wild01wild01 Solar Expert Posts: 97 ✭✭✭
    Re: 78 cents per watt is it too good to be true
    niel wrote: »
    "I rebuild powerplants for a living, which is why I would never rely on one;)"

    what type of power plants do you rebuild, ie. nuclear, coal, hydro.....? and what is your role in the rebuild?

    if this is more than you want the forum to know you can pm me and if it's too much to reveal to me too just say noneya.;)


    I am a millwright. in the last year I have worked on coal/steam turbines, combustion/nat gas turbines, and am currently working to install a 62 mw hydro tubine

    more detailed PM sent, as I do not wish to hijack thread.
  • PhotowhitPhotowhit Solar Expert Posts: 5,503 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: 78 cents per watt is it too good to be true

    Well in his blog at Sunelec John K. took a swipe at NAWS, in the blog though he stated that Evergreen had been purchased.

    I found This article that says the assets had been sold, I would guess primarily the string ribbon tech of growwing/forming silicon. ...but I wonder if they assumed the liabilities (warranties)

    Thought others might be interested.
    Home system 4000 watt (Evergreen) array standing, with 2 Midnite Classic Lites,  Midnite E-panel, Prosine 1800 and Exeltech 1100, 660 ah 24v ForkLift battery. Off grid for @16 of last 17 years. Assorted other systems, and to many panels in the closet to not do more...lol
  • nielniel Solar Expert Posts: 10,300 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: 78 cents per watt is it too good to be true

    to mr. kimball i give my personal opinion of all of this,
    all i can say is the staff, management, and moderators on this forum are not responsible for what many of your sunelec customers say. maybe there are some misunderstandings and misinformation going around, but that isn't the fault of naws. your customers seem to be venting frustrations about your company and it was never the intent of naws to bash and we somewhat discouraged having the multiple threads that appeared about sunelec. that's not the fault of naws, nor is it our problem. it is rather unfair of you, mr. kimball, to just lay your blame to naws because your customers have these opinions be they right or wrong. i, personally, have stayed neutral until i read what you unfairly said about us. that is low to blame naws for your poor customer relations and your comments do serve themselves up as proof of how bad your customer relations are.

    well, you shot yourself in the foot on this and it'd be a shame if you shot yourself in the other foot as you'll make yourself fall. i hate it when there's bad pr for the solar industry and people here can attest that i've said that many times here. get with it and take the blame for your own actions or inactions. if your customers are unhappy, you made them that way.
  • oldchuckoldchuck Registered Users Posts: 7
    Re: 78 cents per watt is it too good to be true

    Huh, I just read the blog item that seems to have gotten you guys upset and I don't get it. Like maybe much ado about nothing. This thread hasn't struck me as all that one sided and it seems like Kimball is a little touchy. I suspect the guy is pretty strung out about now. What an avalanche Sunelec started when they made that auction buy. What a huge work load it must be to turn over that much stuff so quickly. I think they have done pretty well with it. Sure, not perfect and I suppose it will be a while before it's all cleaned up but I think they are an honest company and will do their best to make things right.

    I got my two pallets in in good condition in a timely fashion. I wouldn't have been surprised if there had been delays and difficulties.
  • PhotowhitPhotowhit Solar Expert Posts: 5,503 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: 78 cents per watt is it too good to be true

    I posted to his blob being somewhat critical, at this point, my post hasn't been accepted though one made hours later was...

    I'm impressed, I read the US sold some 1500 Mw in sales yast year, this 7 Mw 3 month adventure represents @.5% of that amount pretty impressive. If you take out commercial installs which are likely out to bid by specs, I'd guess this would even be more impressive.

    Again thanks to NAWS for the open forum!
    Home system 4000 watt (Evergreen) array standing, with 2 Midnite Classic Lites,  Midnite E-panel, Prosine 1800 and Exeltech 1100, 660 ah 24v ForkLift battery. Off grid for @16 of last 17 years. Assorted other systems, and to many panels in the closet to not do more...lol
  • ww_kayakww_kayak Registered Users Posts: 8
    Re: 78 cents per watt is it too good to be true

    Well, at the risk of beating a dead horse, I got my palette. I can't do much until spring, but I got it. I wasn't in a hurry, so it worked for me. Although.. I tried to spend another 17k on batteries and inverters, but never received an email, or phone call, to allow me too?. Oh well, their loss. My "add to cart" shopping with them has been flawless in the past, but communicating with them directly... forget it.


    Attachment not found.
  • BB.BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 31,334 admin
    Re: 78 cents per watt is it too good to be true

    We are not looking for reviews of Sunelec here on the forum. Like any business, there will be happy and unhappy customers out there. None of us moderators here have any insight into solar retailing other than to understand that running a business is difficult work. And not every customer is "always right".

    On average, from what I have read here over the years, Sunelec appears to have way more successful transactions than not. And, unfortunately, the unhappy transactions seem to gather the most attention.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • PhotowhitPhotowhit Solar Expert Posts: 5,503 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: 78 cents per watt is it too good to be true

    Well after not having information about replacing the panel broken in shipping after a couple contacts, including while standing in front of the delievery truck, I tried to reach the sales person today, after 2 calls an hour apart I called John Kimball's ext from his blog.

    He answer the phone and took prompt measures to see that I was called back and had a panel shipped out. I was very impressed with his consideration and his desire to work with people who have had problems.

    You can't ask for better than that, from the man incharge!

    Neat picture kayak! I'm cutting trees now for my placement area, and I'll have one more that will have to drop where the panels will sit, maybe 15 trees in total (just the ones more than 10") and so the fun begins...
    Home system 4000 watt (Evergreen) array standing, with 2 Midnite Classic Lites,  Midnite E-panel, Prosine 1800 and Exeltech 1100, 660 ah 24v ForkLift battery. Off grid for @16 of last 17 years. Assorted other systems, and to many panels in the closet to not do more...lol
  • WindsunWindsun Solar Expert Posts: 1,164 ✭✭
    Re: 78 cents per watt is it too good to be true
    BB. wrote: »
    We are not looking for reviews of Sunelec here on the forum. Like any business, there will be happy and unhappy customers out there. None of us moderators here have any insight into solar retailing other than to understand that running a business is difficult work. And not every customer is "always right".

    On average, from what I have read here over the years, Sunelec appears to have way more successful transactions than not. And, unfortunately, the unhappy transactions seem to gather the most attention.

    -Bill
    I will second that. This forum is for an exchange of information. Posting your results or experiences with products and companies is fine, but in the past we have deleted posts and threads with outright bashing and sometimes unsubstantiated claims. This forum is not for reviews of other companies, if you want to do that, go to http://www.resellerratings.com/ or other similar sites.

    We allow everyone - including our competitors - to post on this forum. But if things get partisan, or bashing and/or personal attacks start, the posts WILL be deleted, and for repeat offenders they will be banned.
  • BB.BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 31,334 admin
    Re: 78 cents per watt is it too good to be true

    I will add here too... If there is something that a he believes is unfair that Mr. Kimball is welcome to post here if he wishes.

    -Bill B. Moderator

    added by niel- it had nothing to do with his accessing a locked thread so stop speculating please as it was a blog he posted on his site.
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • mike95490mike95490 Solar Expert Posts: 9,195 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: 78 cents per watt is it too good to be true

    Finally arrived, and in good condition. I'd ordered a full pallet on the 2nd day of the big sale, and had my card charged for product and shipping, long before either occurred. I'd say they had not planned for the flood of interest the sale stirred up.
    Panels were very solidly packed, on a oversize pallet, with a 3/4" plywood on the bottom, and top, all strapped together, likely an evergreen factory job. But it was a hair-raising ride, waiting for them, as communication was scant, and in pidgin english.
    Powerfab top of pole PV mount | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
    || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
    || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

    solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
    gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister ,

  • peakbaggerpeakbagger Solar Expert Posts: 341 ✭✭✭
    Re: 78 cents per watt is it too good to be true

    I finally received my order on 1/31/12. The panels were well packed and they were as advertised. Was it painful? Yes, did it require persistence? yes but I did get them? Yes.
    The saying is whatever doesnt kill you makes you stronger, I expect that Sun Electronics is going to come out of this stronger. I expect they just didnt realize the volume of orders and I expect that their order systems and temporary staff just couldnt ramp up quick enough and probably confused things. When I eventually got in touch with one of their permanent staff, he got the order back on track and the panels were shipped.
  • mikeomikeo Solar Expert Posts: 386 ✭✭✭
    Re: 78 cents per watt is it too good to be true

    Yeah, I got my two pallets on the 20th and everything was OK. Just got frustrating calling about 20 times to get the order sent. I have delivered all but 13 panels which I have up for sale. My clients will be buying their BOS components from Wind-Sun. One system will be a 28 panel grid tie system which after he orders his SB5000 will be an installed system for around $2.00 a watt including my time.
  • bmetbmet Solar Expert Posts: 630 ✭✭
    Re: 78 cents per watt is it too good to be true

    You resold Sunelec panels?
  • mikeomikeo Solar Expert Posts: 386 ✭✭✭
    Re: 78 cents per watt is it too good to be true
    You resold Sunelec panels?
    Yep, $1.50 a watt delivered. I wish I had the money to buy a container load at that price. As soon as the tariffs kicks in if the trade embargo on China solar panels passes, Solar World, the only American company not loosing money on solar panel manufacturing will kick the market price up to around $2.50 a watt. PV installations will come to a screeching halt for the middle class without government incentives. My little endeavor will be 3 installs, and will get Wind-Sun some and others some American business.
    .
  • PhotowhitPhotowhit Solar Expert Posts: 5,503 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: 78 cents per watt is it too good to be true

    I should say that I recieved a replacement panel for the one broken in shipping, and that John Kimball personally stepped in and helped getting it shipped out. If anyone bought an Evergreen laminate in Mid Missouri, I'd be glad to donate the broken panel for it's frame. FWIW they appear to be crimped together, likely with a fitted internal piece, not sure how easy they'll be to take apart.
    Home system 4000 watt (Evergreen) array standing, with 2 Midnite Classic Lites,  Midnite E-panel, Prosine 1800 and Exeltech 1100, 660 ah 24v ForkLift battery. Off grid for @16 of last 17 years. Assorted other systems, and to many panels in the closet to not do more...lol
  • WindsunWindsun Solar Expert Posts: 1,164 ✭✭
    Re: 78 cents per watt is it too good to be true
    mikeo wrote: »
    Yep, $1.50 a watt delivered. I wish I had the money to buy a container load at that price. As soon as the tariffs kicks in if the trade embargo on China solar panels passes, Solar World, the only American company not loosing money on solar panel manufacturing will kick the market price up to around $2.50 a watt. PV installations will come to a screeching halt for the middle class without government incentives. My little endeavor will be 3 installs, and will get Wind-Sun some and others some American business.
    .
    Actually, we are selling Kyocera panels right now for $1.63 a watt, around $1.55 a watt for pallets.
  • mike95490mike95490 Solar Expert Posts: 9,195 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: 78 cents per watt is it too good to be true
    mike90045 wrote: »
    Finally arrived, and in good condition. I'd ordered a full pallet on the 2nd day of the big sale, and had my card charged for product and shipping, long before either occurred. I'd say they had not planned for the flood of interest the sale stirred up.
    Panels were very solidly packed, on a oversize pallet, with a 3/4" plywood on the bottom, and top, all strapped together, likely an evergreen factory job. But it was a hair-raising ride, waiting for them, as communication was scant, and in pidgin english.

    I take back any good things I said about sunelec. Was up at the ranch this last week, and opened up the panels, they shipped me a pallet of blems for the grade A price. 2 days, and no reply from them. But they were well packed !
    Most of the panels have cells missing 30% or more of the indigo color coating (The AR coating I suppose), and look bleached white. Not small pieces missing, but entire un-coated cells are in the panel. And stickered with "cosmestic blemish" stickers. Had to have been mfg'd with fallouts, can't be a random mix. Well, I hope they will last as long as the prime panels I paid for.

    I'd ordered this Nov 10th:
    > EVERGREEN LIQUIDATION SALE: 78¢ PER WATT!
    > GRADE A, UL, TUV, CE LISTED
    > 25 YEAR WARANTY
    > DELIVERY 5-6 WEEKS
    > 78¢/W APPLIES TO ORDERS WITH 10% DEPOSITS PLACED BEFORE
    > MONDAY NOV 14, 2011.
    Powerfab top of pole PV mount | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
    || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
    || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

    solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
    gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister ,

  • rollandelliottrollandelliott Solar Expert Posts: 834 ✭✭
    Apparently the deal WAS too good to be true, but not in the way you think. $250K lost...

    Apparently the deal WAS too good to be true, but not in the way you think. Sun lost $250K and the CC processor is with holding funds.
    Just read their blog.
  • OverTheTopCargoTrailerOverTheTopCargoTrailer Registered Users Posts: 3
    Re: 78 cents per watt is it too good to be true

    I have just purchased 6 LG 255 watt panels at $1.16 from affordable solar.....$298 each
    shipped all 6 right away for $195 from AZ to SFO
    the panels are absolute first class, the frames are double tube thickness...
    not as cheap but absolute 1st class quality stuff, again I was really surprised at the quality.


    http://overthetopcargotrailer.blogspot.com/
  • boBboB Solar Expert Posts: 980 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: 78 cents per watt is it too good to be true

    Yep ! Get them while the gettin's good. It won't last forever.

    boB
  • rollandelliottrollandelliott Solar Expert Posts: 834 ✭✭
    Re: 78 cents per watt is it too good to be true

    I think the prices will last in fact I think they will get cheaper. $1 or less a watt is what is an average price now a days. I've seen them as low as 63 cents a watt, but that requires buying a palette, not just half a dozen.
  • peakbaggerpeakbagger Solar Expert Posts: 341 ✭✭✭
    Re: 78 cents per watt is it too good to be true

    IMHO, I think the current prices are not going to stick. There is a lots of production capacity and warhouses full of inventory but not enough buyers currently. Usually these types of supply/demand issue have a three year cycle. At some point enouhg supplier go out of business and the remaining ones raise their prices to cover their costs. I expect the new hihg FIT in Japan may drain some excess capacity but there is still a worldwide glut and cheap natural gas in the US is going to impact the really big projects that might drive up demand
  • bmetbmet Solar Expert Posts: 630 ✭✭
    Re: 78 cents per watt is it too good to be true
    peakbagger wrote: »
    IMHO, I think the current prices are not going to stick. There is a lots of production capacity and warhouses full of inventory but not enough buyers currently. Usually these types of supply/demand issue have a three year cycle. At some point enouhg supplier go out of business and the remaining ones raise their prices to cover their costs. I expect the new hihg FIT in Japan may drain some excess capacity but there is still a worldwide glut and cheap natural gas in the US is going to impact the really big projects that might drive up demand

    There is the owner of this particular company to consider. His specials usually consist of two types:
    1.) His best deals are based on bulk buying, so when he resells his best special is for bulk customers. Small buyers have little option.

    2.) The next tier of specials are usually for anyone, but the specs I've seen are for the less-than-optimal wattage panels requiring MPPT type charge management.

    If the panels are Goldilocks 'just right' specs, the price is higher, not necessarily competitive.
  • CDN_VTCDN_VT Solar Expert Posts: 492 ✭✭✭
    Re: 78 cents per watt is it too good to be true
    I think the prices will last in fact I think they will get cheaper. $1 or less a watt is what is an average price now a days. I've seen them as low as 63 cents a watt, but that requires buying a palette, not just half a dozen.

    I've seen similar & kinda agree , My next BIG build / buy is Hybrid grid tie.
    This will need the forums help, plus my time to measure area of roofs / angles . I'll be on the 3' chainsaws , dropping a few 250 foot leaf's ..


    VT
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