Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

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  • SteveK
    SteveK Solar Expert Posts: 387 ✭✭
    Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)
    XRinger wrote: »
    I've ordered a bunch of small items from DX and mostly they've been good stuff..

    It got pretty cold here this AM.. Like a fool, I opened up the den curtains
    a little too early and added a bit too much load to my den Sanyo.

    Not sure, but I don't think it likes working so hard when it's 5 degrees..

    http://ecorenovator.org/forum/geothermal/1815-2-sanyo-24khs72-ac-hp-install-project-oct-2011-a-4.html#post19121

    Almost lunch time and it's already back up to 12.1°F !
    Humm, no more morning bike rides??

    Got to 4F last night here. Right now it's 7 and falling. No trouble to report with the splits. Plenty of heat so far.
  • SteveK
    SteveK Solar Expert Posts: 387 ✭✭
    Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

    And it's also time for the new poco bill. It appears the worst case cost against the splits is $107 this month. $168 for the season so far.
  • XRinger
    XRinger Solar Expert Posts: 529 ✭✭✭
    Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

    It got danged cold here last night. I stayed up to watch the power use as it got colder.
    Fell asleep in the den and woke up to the TED's 4kw alarm beep.
    The 10A current limiter had tripped on Sanyo #1, meaning it was using 2.4 kW.
    I turned it off and left Sanyo#2 on (den) for another hour,
    until it was consistently using over 2kW, before shutting it off and going to bed.
    It was around 3AM when I turned on some back up and crashed.
    Coming back up is slowwwww this morning..
  • SteveK
    SteveK Solar Expert Posts: 387 ✭✭
    Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

    Looks like they are running well Rich. I'm sure you expected those results.

    Good to know info above too. That's one thing I was wondering. So I can expect a large operating current when the system is near it's limit? So far I've only seen 8A max from each system. That was when I bumped the temp to 80F from 70F and it was 32F outside. During these last coldest nights I've only seen 8.8A max from both of these combined while maintaining 72F indoor temp.

    Believe I saw a defrost cycle happen this weekend. The vanes rose and the fan on the indoor unit stopped for a few minutes. This fan usually always runs even if setpoint T has been reached.

    Going to start running the stoker in the basement on the next cold spells. The splits work well but the floors are cold upstairs on days/nights like those we had this weekend. But now I know the H2i's are good to 4F going it alone.
  • XRinger
    XRinger Solar Expert Posts: 529 ✭✭✭
    Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

    Yeah, it was expected. Get down to 5-10deg F and it's time to fire up the back-up..
    I hope we don't have too many more long spells like we just had.
    This milder (snowy?) weather doesn't seem so bad, after being in the mini-deep freeze.

    I suspect the max amperage is listed in you spec sheets. The BTUh rating of the system kinda sets the power draw.
    The snow is getting a bit heavier now. Looks like we might have some defrost cycles tonight.

    I put away our space heaters for now. Tonight, I'll sleep like a baby.. :)

    Cheers,
    Rich
  • Vic
    Vic Solar Expert Posts: 3,208 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

    Think that this will be on Topic ..

    Seems that the site for the recommended source of the Sanyo Mini-Splits has gone dark. May just be a temporary thing, but, probably not, as many of the Sanyos became "Not in Stock" items. Had been wanting to buy several of the mid range Multi-Zone jobs which have been out of stock for about six or more months.

    Had heard that Panasonic bought the Sanyo line, but have not researched it.

    Vic
    Off Grid - Two systems -- 4 SW+ 5548 Inverters, Surrette 4KS25 1280 AH X2@48V, 11.1 KW STC PV, 4X MidNite Classic 150 w/ WBjrs, Beta KID on S-530s, MX-60s, MN Bkrs/Boxes.  25 KVA Polyphase Kubota diesel,  Honda Eu6500isa,  Eu3000is-es, Eu2000,  Eu1000 gensets.  Thanks Wind-Sun for this great Forum.
  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,431 admin
    Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

    Yep Vic:

    Sanyo HVAC to become Panasonic:
    November/ December 2011

    SANYO HVAC TO BECOME PANASONIC. The process of integrating Sanyo is an outcomes of Panasonic Corporation's acquisition of Sanyo Electric.
    "Combining this HVAC business into Panasonic's portfolio of businesses will allow us to offer a broader range of solutions to our B2B customers and channel partners," said Joseph M. Taylor, Chairman and CEO of Panasonic Corporation of North America. "Panasonic is a leader in air conditioning globally, including the production of air conditioning compressors and other key components. We expect that the newly designated Panasonic Air Conditioning Group will benefit from this expertise and legacy of technology development as well as the growing power of the Panasonic brand."

    As a unit of Panasonic, the HVAC team will continue to promote and sell the current mini-split product line, while also planning to incorporate new products based on the combination of Panasonic and Sanyo technologies. Stay tuned and watch for changes as Sanyo mini-splits become Panasonic.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • XRinger
    XRinger Solar Expert Posts: 529 ✭✭✭
    Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

    Did you try Pex supply??
    http://www.pexsupply.com/Single-Zone-Mini-Split-Air-Conditioners-1784000

    My last buy a few months ago was from these guys..
    http://bostonheatingsupply.com/heatpumps.aspx

    Got a good deal on a KHS2472 Heat Pump Indoor Unit, with super fast shipping.

    Cheers,
    Rich
  • Vic
    Vic Solar Expert Posts: 3,208 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

    Hi Rich,

    Thanks for the links .. Looks like Pex offers a large selection. Will try calling them next week. Thanks, Vic
    Off Grid - Two systems -- 4 SW+ 5548 Inverters, Surrette 4KS25 1280 AH X2@48V, 11.1 KW STC PV, 4X MidNite Classic 150 w/ WBjrs, Beta KID on S-530s, MX-60s, MN Bkrs/Boxes.  25 KVA Polyphase Kubota diesel,  Honda Eu6500isa,  Eu3000is-es, Eu2000,  Eu1000 gensets.  Thanks Wind-Sun for this great Forum.
  • SteveK
    SteveK Solar Expert Posts: 387 ✭✭
    Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

    H2i's are still working well. But with a winter like this who needs heat? HA!

    This months cost for heat using the Mitsu's is ~$95.... Waaay under budget for electric heat in the Northeast.
  • XRinger
    XRinger Solar Expert Posts: 529 ✭✭✭
    Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)
    SteveK wrote: »
    H2i's are still working well. But with a winter like this who needs heat? HA!

    This months cost for heat using the Mitsu's is ~$95.... Waaay under budget for electric heat in the Northeast.

    We have another week left in this billing cycle and the TED projects it's going to cost $94.70 this time.. :)
    We've had a lot of days when the Sanyos were using 1kW.. 24 kWh (or more) per day!
    So a total for the month, of 581 kWh doesn't come as a surprise.

    The sun was out a for a while this morning, and right now our power use is very low..
    The weather outlook for the rest of the month is lookin fine!
    http://www.accuweather.com/en/us/woburn-ma/01801/february-weather/338702

    These mini-splits have been set to 20-21 C 24-7 during the last couple of months,
    we've been staying toasty this year, like we've never been before..

    The best part, we no longer cringe, when we hear those big oil trucks rolling down our street.. :D
  • SteveK
    SteveK Solar Expert Posts: 387 ✭✭
    Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

    Rich, this is the second month in a row your and my bills were within $1 of each other...too freaky! There is guesswork in mine though while yours is measured.

    Just came in from the backyard sitting with the dog having a coffee. 50 degrees almost daily, middle of February. This is remarkable weather.
  • XRinger
    XRinger Solar Expert Posts: 529 ✭✭✭
    Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

    We were out for a nice walk today.. We were carrying our jackets during the last mile of the return trip..

    I saw a big puddle of water on the concrete pad under Sanyo #1 this morning. ( don't think it was rain water).
    I wonder if we had some defrost operations going on early this AM..?.
    The temp and dewpoint were tracking close together, but it wasn't very cold, most of the time.

    Did you get any defrosting?

    Hey, my TED is now showing a projected cost of $94.00
  • SteveK
    SteveK Solar Expert Posts: 387 ✭✭
    Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

    No, I have not noticed any defrosting here. The OD units are suspended from the basement foundation though and the condensate drains are directly over crushed stone so it's hard to tell from just looking there.

    Well, off to Myrtle Beach, SC for a funeral till Tuesday. Normally I'd be excited to get away from the deep freeze here in February....not so this year.
  • XRinger
    XRinger Solar Expert Posts: 529 ✭✭✭
    Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

    I can't see any drip on my #2 unit, since I have a sheet of CoroPlas under it.
    This spring, my plan is to cover all the soil around that unit with crushed stone.
    Maybe with some anti-weed plastic under it..?.

    I've been thinking about some kind of netting over the air intake,
    to keep the leaves from getting sucked into the HX..
    In the fall, the wind blows them from trees 100s feet away.. :(
  • SteveK
    SteveK Solar Expert Posts: 387 ✭✭
    Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

    New poco bill in for the month Jan-Feb. Minimum cost to run Mitsu's is $85. Max cost to run is $93 based on previous monthly consumption contained in bill... Very pleased.
  • Utana
    Utana Solar Expert Posts: 32
    Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

    Its been a while since I posted here, but I have been following this thread. I'm ready to take the plunge and purchase my first mini-split system, but am a novice and need some advice if you don't mind. The space I want to try out this system in is a mostly open space of about 800-900 square feet. In researching what size system I need some sites say to opt for a 24000 BTU system, but others say to down-size. I'm currently leaning toward a 12000 BTU system. I'm also leaning toward a smaller system because the smaller ones seem to have better energy efficiency. From those who have these units installed, does this sound like a good size for this space?

    I'm torn between three different units - the Mitsubishi 23 SEER (12000 BTUs), the Klimaire 20 SEER (12000 BTUs), and the AmericAire DIY 20 SEER (12000 BTUs). I've seen a lot on the Mitsubishi and the Sanyo units, but not so much on any others. I'm torn. The AmericAire DIY comes with a complete DIY kit that sounds like it would be a super easy install job, which is a big consideration for someone that hasn't installed one of these before. The Mitsubishi has the awesome reputation and a little better SEER. The Kilmaire has the low price tag. Any thoughts on these differences?

    BTW, I live in Georgia and we have temps generally in the upper 90s much of the summer and generally down into the lower 20s and 30s in the coldest part of winter. I am not afraid of most any DIY project except electrical, and my husband is afraid of any DIY project except electrical. lol.
  • XRinger
    XRinger Solar Expert Posts: 529 ✭✭✭
    Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

    I would go larger, but that's just me.
    Attachment not found.

    A lot of my BTU requirement is due to poor insulation.. (1950s house)..
  • drees
    drees Solar Expert Posts: 482 ✭✭✭
    Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)
    XRinger wrote: »
    I would go larger, but that's just me.

    A lot of my BTU requirement is due to poor insulation.. (1950s house)..
    BTU requirements depend heavily on how well insulated the area to be heated/cooled and how much direct solar radiation the area receives. Really hard to say if 12 or 24 k BTUs, but either way that's a huge jump in capacity from one to the other.

    It also depends on how warm/cool you want to be able to keep the area and if being able to quickly warm/cool the area is a concern.

    Tons of variables to be sure. :)
  • SteveK
    SteveK Solar Expert Posts: 387 ✭✭
    Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

    We went a totaly different way. We looked at where the system runs most efficiently and sized it according to that. For example, we could have gotten away with a 9K H2i in our kitchen but we went 12K. This because the 12K ran more efficiently in our instance. We had the energy audit and the room only needs ~8K.

    Weird thing is supposed to be true about these inverters. They oversize easily because they ramp down so well. Short cycling is less of an issue and their ability to hold constant temperatures continually even when they are barely needed at all is a plus.
  • XRinger
    XRinger Solar Expert Posts: 529 ✭✭✭
    Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

    I put a 24,000 BTU in a room that's only 288 sq feet ( 16x18 ).. But, it does have almost 100 sq ft of windows.
    My guess is the insulation could be a lot better.. And the 64 sq ft of Anderson Thermo pane sliding (4)windows
    should be replaced with some modern windows that have more than 1/8" of space between the panes.. :)

    Anyways, over-sizing isn't a problem. Since the unit will run from 4,000 to 24,200 BTUh cooling or 4,400 to 29,000 BTUh of heating..

    poweruse.jpg

    I have another 24,000 BTUh Sanyo for the rest of our little house..
    Overflow from the den comes back into the main house. When set to the same setpoint, the two units use about
    the same power. It seems like a balanced setup..

    I've found the normal running power of each unit in mild weather is 450 to 500 watts and 900 to 1000 during extreme weather.

    This winter, we've been using about 500w per each unit, giving us around 1kw per hour on average.
    So a cold month runs up about 600 KWh or $100 in heating cost, per month.
    Which is about 1/4 the cost of heating with oil heat.. :cool:

    I could have used a smaller unit in the den, a 12,000 BTUh would have worked nicely.
    But would not have helped the other Sanyo in the main house, as much as a larger unit.

    But, I didn't have a 12,000 unit.. I had a repaired 24,000 outdoor unit
    and it wasn't too costly to buy the indoor unit for it..
    http://ecorenovator.org/forum/geothermal/1815-2-sanyo-24khs72-ac-hp-install-project-oct-2011-a.html
  • Utana
    Utana Solar Expert Posts: 32
    Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

    Thanks for all the helpful information. Now I'm waffling a bit on size. I did find another brand, a Fujitsu, that has an even better SEER (25), though this company doesn't seem to like DIYers at all. I think all my research is done, and I just need to make some decisions.

    Thanks again!!

    Kelly
  • LucMan
    LucMan Solar Expert Posts: 223 ✭✭✭
    Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

    You really need to do a "Manual J heat loss calculation" to select the proper unit. This enters in all the variables for your climate, windows, insulation, orientation etc. I would not purchase a unit with out knowing exactly what my heat loss is. Select a unit that outputs the btu's at the lowest temperature that you will encounter according to the heat loss calculation.
    Here's a list of quality units, Daikin, Fujitsu, Mitsubishi, Sanyo if you ever need parts they will be available( and you will with the newer inverter models) not so with the others.

    http://www.hvac-calc.com/main.asp $49 one time use
    http://www.mrhvac.com/free-hvac-stuff/free-heat-gain-and-loss-calculator/
  • XRinger
    XRinger Solar Expert Posts: 529 ✭✭✭
    Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

    Make dang sure you will have a replacement warranty for at least a year, even if you do 90% of the install yourself.
    And have an HVAC guy do the commissioning.
  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,431 admin
    Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

    If I remember correctly, the Fujistu units (at least in the US) are all 240 VAC. If you are going off grid or using emergency generator backup, the Sanyo's are nice because they are 120 VAC instead (smaller generators and off-grid inverters are usually 120 VAC--You have to pay more, and usually get a larger inverter, for a 120/240 VAC capable inverter).

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • XRinger
    XRinger Solar Expert Posts: 529 ✭✭✭
    Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)
    BB. wrote: »
    If I remember correctly, the Fujistu units (at least in the US) are all 240 VAC. If you are going off grid or using emergency generator backup, the Sanyo's are nice because they are 120 VAC instead (smaller generators and off-grid inverters are usually 120 VAC--You have to pay more, and usually get a larger inverter, for a 120/240 VAC capable inverter).

    -Bill


    That's true for some of the smaller Sanyo models.
    My 24,000 BTUh Sanyos use 240vac. From what I've seen, almost everything above about 9,000 BTUh requires 240vac.

    I'm not 100% sure, but I think my model of Sanyo (24KHS72) will most likely run off of my 5 KW back-up gasoline generator. (it has outlets for 240 & 120).
    And might even run off a cheap 3.5 KW MSW 240vac inverter (for off-grid guys). :)

    If I was going to do solar assist for my heating and cooling, I would just do it while the grid was up,
    using some Enphase 240 micro-inverters, with my PV.. :)
  • SteveK
    SteveK Solar Expert Posts: 387 ✭✭
    Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)
    XRinger wrote: »
    If I was going to do solar assist for my heating and cooling, I would just do it while the grid was up,
    using some Enphase 240 micro-inverters, with my PV.. :)

    My feelings exactly. Unless it was desert country and I was after A/C only. It's pretty tough to get icy air from coal/wood as I understand it. I don't see these 240V systems as an off-grid solar solution either.

    Makes me respect the grid a bit more now that we are using it to it's full potential. Takes alot of resources to come even remotely close to simulating it...
  • techntrek
    techntrek Solar Expert Posts: 1,372 ✭✭✭
    Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

    You are correct that the smallest Sanyo is the only one that will run from 120 volts, but its SEER isn't great - something like 18 if I remember right. Not bad, just not as good as the Mitsus. I looked all over for 120 volt options since I started considering one for my camper and the Sanyo is the only one I could find.
    4.5 kw APC UPS powered by a Prius, 12 kw Generac, Honda EU3000is
  • Utana
    Utana Solar Expert Posts: 32
    Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)
    LucMan wrote: »
    You really need to do a "Manual J heat loss calculation" to select the proper unit. This enters in all the variables for your climate, windows, insulation, orientation etc. I would not purchase a unit with out knowing exactly what my heat loss is. Select a unit that outputs the btu's at the lowest temperature that you will encounter according to the heat loss calculation.
    Here's a list of quality units, Daikin, Fujitsu, Mitsubishi, Sanyo if you ever need parts they will be available( and you will with the newer inverter models) not so with the others.

    http://www.hvac-calc.com/main.asp $49 one time use
    http://www.mrhvac.com/free-hvac-stuff/free-heat-gain-and-loss-calculator/

    Thanks for these links! I didn't know such a calculation was available on the internet. How cool!!

    One thought... Since I live in Georgia I'm a bit more concerned with summer than winter. I've been comparing SEERs more than EERs, though I am interested in getting good efficiency with both. Also, I've looked around a bit on some southeastern HVAC sites and many of them say to down-size rather than up-size HVAC units in the southeast. We have a lot of humidity here, and apparently if we up-size we run the risk of the unit not running enough to get out all the humidity, leaving us just as uncomfortable as we were with a higher temperature. Running a slightly smaller unit, the unit will have to work harder, but it will remove more humidity since it will be running more often. Anyone here from the southeast have experience with this?

    Kelly
  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,431 admin
    Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

    I am not an A/C expert--But I think one of the advantages with "inverter" controlled A/C systems is that they don't (need to) cycle on and off (when off, there is no humidity control)--but slow the pump's RPM down to reduce cooling capacity (evaporator still stays, hopefully, below dewpoint). So--You should still get fairly good humidity control with these type units.

    At least another "Internet fact" to research.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
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