Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

inetdog

Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

PhilS wrote: »

I was recommending a mini-split, and jumped to my bookmarked page at minisplitsystems.com but found Sanyo was no longer listed. What happened? Panasonic bought 'em? No longer offered but a similar unit is offered by Panasonic?
Phil

A quick Google search for 120 volt mini split AC turned up a lot of results, some of which (Soleus and Friedrich) specifically mention inverter technology. But they were mostly, if not all, full heat pump systems and not just AC.

Looks like the beloved Sanyo models may be gone for good.

Ralph Day

Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

The quotes are starting to come in. Quite a range, but not apples to apples.

Coaire (samsung) 9000btu a/c only ...$2147 installed.
LG 9000btu heat pump $2712. (not inverter type)
Lennox 12000btu heat pump (inverter type) $3460 installed
Mistubishi 12000btu a/c only $3460 installed

I know, not all the same capacity, I should have made sure each installer quoted on the same size.

Ralph

Dave Angelini

Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

The Panasonics are just as good in all aspects that one would reasonably care about as the Sanyo's. There are even have more models and voltages! The 120V units can be "plugged" into a 120VAC GFCI.

It is funny you asked that Rich, I have been asked to think about a spare heat-pump and that is one of the options I may design for. Still the 240vac units are looking nice with the SEER and that might be a way to go.

There is no going back after you have seen the promissed land!

BB.

Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

From an earlier post in this thread:

Yep Vic:

Sanyo HVAC to become Panasonic:

November/ December 2011

SANYO HVAC TO BECOME PANASONIC. The process of integrating Sanyo is an outcomes of Panasonic Corporation's acquisition of Sanyo Electric.
"Combining this HVAC business into Panasonic's portfolio of businesses will allow us to offer a broader range of solutions to our B2B customers and channel partners," said Joseph M. Taylor, Chairman and CEO of Panasonic Corporation of North America. "Panasonic is a leader in air conditioning globally, including the production of air conditioning compressors and other key components. We expect that the newly designated Panasonic Air Conditioning Group will benefit from this expertise and legacy of technology development as well as the growing power of the Panasonic brand."

As a unit of Panasonic, the HVAC team will continue to promote and sell the current mini-split product line, while also planning to incorporate new products based on the combination of Panasonic and Sanyo technologies. Stay tuned and watch for changes as Sanyo mini-splits become Panasonic.

-Bill

Utana

Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

Ralph Day wrote: »

The quotes are starting to come in...

Mistubishi 12000btu a/c only $3460 installed

For comparison sake, I called one company to see what it would cost to do the total install of our 12000 Mitsubishi and it was over $4000 (including purchasing the unit through them). However, the guy we used to do our hook up, who is very familiar with these units and is therefore probably more efficient at installing them, said he would have charged $750 on top of the cost of materials and could have gotten us the unit for cheaper than what we bought it for on the internet, which would have made it slightly less than $3000. Definitely pays to shop around. We opted to do the install ourselves and it cost around $2100, and we still have some left over wiring and other accessories that we won't have to buy for our next install. The risk we made with the self install is that Mitsubishi may not honor our warranty.

Kelly

XRinger

Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

Having a plug-in system makes the low BTUh units seem more desirable. It's going to make it easier for people who want to do 95% of the install.
I'm lucky to live in a town where the electrical inspector allows homeowners to get permits for simple stuff like dropping in a 230 disconnect box..
Just have to be sure that you always do a good job and pass inspection!

Sanyo wasn't too hard on me when I needed a replacement outdoor unit. I had sent in my paperwork, with the name of the HVAC company
that did the final refrigerant release. My HVAC guy inspects the install, looks at the vacuum gauge and turns the hex key..
Much cheaper than having someone hang around doing a pressure test and while the vacuum pump runs for a couple of hours.
Being retired and able to work within other people's schedules has it's good points..

I would be reluctant to buy a unit, if the company said they wouldn't back any of their products, sold on the web..
That just seems crazy.

Yeah, once you go ASHP, you never want to burn oil again..

Ralph Day

Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

Upon further research I decided to resurrect my Xantrex T240 autotransformer. I now have a 240vac supply. This allows me to consider all the inverter controlled heat pump units.

Now under consideration: Mitsubishi, Toshiba, LG, Lennox. All in the 12000btu heat pump configuration. Any others I should have in the running? (only so many available in Canada, and with local installers carrying them)

Ralph

Utana

Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

XRinger wrote: »

I would be reluctant to buy a unit, if the company said they wouldn't back any of their products, sold on the web..
That just seems crazy.

Totally agree, and I don't know if I would have bought my unit from the web if I didn't think simply hiring a HVAC guy to sign off on the warranty would validate the warranty. It was my HVAC guy that told me Mitsubishi was picky about this sort of thing, and that they know where people buy the units. Our HVAC guy said he can buy my next unit for me, and probably get a little better price too. He will let us do the install, then will come out to do the lines and sign off on the warranty again. Depending on if his price really is better than what I can get on the web, I may go that route. All this is definitely a learning experience for me.

We didn't bother getting permission from the County to do our electrical work. I know there are rules about this, but I decided for such a simple thing the County could probably care less. Our house is ancient, we still have fuses, so we opted to just do it ourselves and eventually we will have a real electrician come and fix the many out-of-compliance issues with our electrical. Our HVAC guy did look at it, though, and said it looked good.

Kelly

XRinger

Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

Utana wrote: »

We didn't bother getting permission from the County to do our electrical work.

The thing that worries me about doing even minor wiring without a permit, is what happens if there is an accident or fire.
The insurance company might just head down to city hall and ask to see any permits issued for your house.

Regardless of permit or not, if it's determined that wiring wasn't up to code, you may have a serious problem.
Insurance policies are loaded with so much fine-print, it seems like they really don't have to pay out, if they don't want to.
I think many of the pay-outs are done, because they don't want bad PR..

Utana

Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

I think you are totally right Xringer. Didn't mean to sound so passive about getting my house up to code. My house is absolutely not up to code, and I should do better. My house was built in the 30s and the wiring is all over the place in our basement - connections without boxes and switched positive and negative in the plugs throughout the house. Almost all of the wiring in it was done by the two previous owners, not an electrician. Most of the house has the old plugs where you are supposed to attach to the plate screw for grounding, and I've always wondered if these actually are grounded. I guess I figured with all this going on what's the harm in doing my own electrical for the mini-split. Luckily for me, when I did hire an electrician a few years back, he said that even though it was not up to code, it didn't look too bad to him, even with all the 5 different sorts of fuse boxes with both the screw in and slot-type fuses. Now the wiring in our detached garage is another matter. We did have to inform our current insurance company that we still have a fuse electrical system, and our home inspector noted all the wiring problems before we bought the place.

Kelly

XRinger

Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

Okay Kelly.. Our house is from Feb 1956, so we had a fuse box (screw-in) when we moved in (July 1973).
So when we could, we got a breaker box installed. Sadly, I should have been more knowledgeable
so I could have specked out what I wanted (hindsight being 20:15).
A larger box would have been good and a waterproof out-door 230 section, wouldn't need replacement now.

When we had a detached garage built (24'x24'), we had a subcontracted electrician.
BIG mistake. Very poor workmanship. I should have done the job myself.
So, when we added a 'den' on the back of the house, I did the wiring, and got it done the way I wanted it..

One of the things that worries me these days, is my age. At some point, I'm going to have to yank out
all of my solar experiments and my DIY 230vac electronic 10A breakers that I use on the Sanyos.
I don't want my survivors paying a professional electrician $6,000 to remove my handiwork..
Hey! I did use UL components

Cheers,
Rich

SteveK

Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

Ralph Day wrote: »

The quotes are starting to come in. Quite a range, but not apples to apples.

Coaire (samsung) 9000btu a/c only ...$2147 installed.
LG 9000btu heat pump $2712. (not inverter type)
Lennox 12000btu heat pump (inverter type) $3460 installed
Mistubishi 12000btu a/c only $3460 installed

I know, not all the same capacity, I should have made sure each installer quoted on the same size.

Ralph

That's really expensive for the Mitsubishi. We did a 9 and a 12 heat/cool for $5400. I thought that was a bit high. Not the highest or the lowest but still pricey. I am going it alone this fall to do the rest of the house with a slightly less efficient multi-zone. Installation was pretty simple after watching the installers last fall.

We love these mini-splits. We will never go back...

Ralph Day

Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

Gotta remember this is Canada...everything costs more. I am going for the Mitsubishi 12000 heat pump mini split. $3480 then the 13% Harmonized Sales Tax. A little more than I wanted to pay (above one quote for the same installation) but the chosen installer struck me as very professional and someone I would want to work in my house. I once `saved`$200 on drywalling the house during construction...didn`t save anything. A terrible job was done, and 30 years later I still kick myself for cheaping out on the job.

Ralph

LucMan

Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

It's always good to purchase from a contractor that has completed the factory training, whether it's Mitsubishi, Fujitsu, Daikin, etc.They know how to install the unit properly. If you have a problem with the unit there will be someone to call to make the repairs and honor the warranty. They will require repairs, the inverter units are very complex with sensitive & expensive electronics, they are not like the old single speed units that lasted 20+ years without any issues. After the 2 year warranty is up, for certain repairs it's more economical to replace the entire unit than to repair. Remember the warranty only covers parts not labor, this is where the original installing contractor shows his worth.
Who are you going to call if you buy the system on the internet?

XRinger

Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

LucMan wrote: »

It's always good to purchase from a contractor that has completed the factory training, whether it's Mitsubishi, Fujitsu, Daikin, etc.They know how to install the unit properly. If you have a problem with the unit there will be someone to call to make the repairs and honor the warranty. They will require repairs, the inverter units are very complex with sensitive & expensive electronics, they are not like the old single speed units that lasted 20+ years without any issues. After the 2 year warranty is up, for certain repairs it's more economical to replace the entire unit than to repair. Remember the warranty only covers parts not labor, this is where the original installing contractor shows his worth.
Who are you going to call if you buy the system on the internet?

Sounds real good, except for the installed price and the labor price of the later repairs.
And of course your expert repairman might have to keep coming back, again and again..

So, if you DIY installed a $700 to $800 9k BTUh inverter ASHP in your home,
http://www.ebay.com/itm/400305370894
Instead of paying $2,000 to $3,000 (at least in this area) you have already saved enough to buy a spare unit.

HVAC guys have very expensive medical insurance to buy, kids to send to Yale & etc.
So, if you are handy and like DIY projects you could save yourself a bit of cash.

Ralph Day

Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

I've really gotta thank Dave Sparks for starting this thread way back when. I never thought I'd get back into a/c again, off grid 6 years, then utility power available again...

My Mitsubishi 12000btu heat pump unit was installed today. I can't believe how little power it's using keeping the house at a comfy 23C (75F) when it's 90F outside. Very smart unit, lots of bells and whistles. I like that you can direct the cool air away from your neck if you're sitting watching tv, or towards the kitchen area if your cooking, or just on automatic the unit will direct more cooling towards the warmest area in it's zone. A pedestal fan is moving cool air from the great room into a west corner bedroom (the warmest room in the house, tough to sleep there in the hot and humid time.

Presently running off solar and some wind, but it uses so little power I won;t hesitate to run it off the utility when needed. It uses half the power of my dehumidifier (not on full but lo).

Can't wait until I can use some heat from it as well (Feb, Mar, April) Should reduce the amount of wood burned (and cut, split, stacked, moved ...).

Thanks again Dave

Ralph

XRinger

Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

http://pauland.net/archive.php?ID=KMAWOBUR2&month=06&day=29&year=2012&units=E&mode=1

Today it was really muggy after raining early in the AM. When the heat started to build a bit, we started up our two Sanyo 24,000 BTUh mini-splits.
Set for 23C, the house was comfy in no time.
When my wife started cooking supper (electric stove), I set them down to 22C.
It's been 8 hours now, and we've used 4.5 KWh (75 cents) to stay cool on a pretty warm day.. (for around here anyways).
4.5 KWh / 8 hours = 562.5 watts on average all day. (Each unit averaged 281.25 watts per hour).

Time to go set them back to 23C now..

Dave Angelini

Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

Good Luck Ralph! You will like the heating part someday! I am so spoiled by having a heat pump now for 3 years that there is not really a dollar amount that I would say is too much. I know my wife would start looking at the "for better or worse part of the contract" if I did not replace it ASAP. :grr

Ralph Day

Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

In other words "ASHP ASAP!":grr

Ralph

techntrek

Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

Or else DOA PDQ.

waynefromnscanada

Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

Ralph Day wrote: »

My Mitsubishi 12000btu heat pump unit was installed today. I can't believe how little power it's using keeping the house at a comfy 23C (75F) when it's 90F outside.

A year ago I installed a locally available Fridigaire 12000 BTU mini split for heat during the shoulder seasons of Winter. I've been happy with it, at least so far. The instructions recommended using 12 gauge wire with a 20 amp breaker, which I did. To me, this eliminated any chance of running it off grid because obviously the power consumption would be too high, but still I was always wondering about it's actual power usage. Couple days ago, as a test, after running it all day as an AC during a very hot spell, and noticing a lot of the time it was throttled back, everything came to a head. Unhooked it from the mains and instead, through a Kill-A-Watt to the xantrex 1800/12, not knowing what to expect. Once again, I am amazed at that this off grid system will power! Turned it on, cranked down the thermostat to make it work hard, then sat back and watched the Kill-A-Watt. Was shocked at how gentle was it's demand for power. Started out @ 50 watts, then very gradually it crept up to 150, then 200 etc, until after about 5 minutes it was reaching for 700 watts. Checked the power factor though and found it up around 900 VA. Everything operates on DC, so the PF issue must be with it's power supply. Tried adding a 25 MFD cap across it just to see what would happen, but no change. So I eased up on the thermostat and the wattage slowly spooled down to around 300, where it more or less held for the rest of the day, sometimes dropping back to 200, or even 150, and still it kept the place comfortable with +90 F outside. Can you say Impressed? I can! So why the need for a 20 amp breaker? Perhaps it's different in heat mode, although I can't guess why it should be.
So now it's wired to a male plug, and right beside it are two receptacles, one for grid, the other for the Xantrex 1800/12. Today, as soon as the sun was hitting the panels, the Mini-split was turned on to keep the place cool, another hot day. And keep the place comfortable using just the left over power from the panels, that would otherwise not be used! Using between 250 and 400 watts, then by the end of the day, before the sun was gone, it had throttled back to roughly 150 watts and was still providing cold air. So it looks like, as long as the sun is shining, I have free AC and still at the end of the day the batteries are fully charged!
Interesting how when I first got involved with the off grid system, my expectations were so low, and over the years, I've slowly added more and more loads, with each new load bringing pleasant amazement!

XRinger

Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

I wondered about that 20A rating on my Sanyo 24,000 BTU..
I had high current problems with it, so I installed a 10A breaker.. It never popped!
10A x 240v = 2.4kw.. Even when the Sanyo was pulling 3kw, it still wouldn't pop.
The Sanyo would fail in the over-power or over-pressure mode.

Now, I have DIY solidstate 10A breakers on both my Sanyo systems.
If someone cranks the thermostat too much, my 10A breaker simulates a 60 second power failure.

My Sanyos use about 400 to 480 watts most of the time. That's their SOP.
They will peak up when there is a call for temperature change, but normally it's only to 1200 watts.

The summer cost of cooling is peanuts. I only use a lot of KWh during the dead of winter..
(This computer uses more power during the summer)..

waynefromnscanada

Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

I like the idea of a small breaker that will shut things down it someone cranks the thermostat. Thanks for that idea
I'll also eventually add a relay to kill it if the sky clouds over etc.

XRinger

Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

At first, I tried a 15A and it wouldn't drop out, so I added an out-board 10A breaker (Din rail type), still wouldn't pop..

Then, I realized that electromechanical breakers weren't going to work. They are make to withstand large surges of power when large HVAC motors start up..
So, I used a sensitive current detector (from Ebay).. Here's a link to my breaker Blog.. http://ecorenovator.org/forum/appliances-gadgets/1490-diy-230vac-adjustable-power-limiter.html

In the end, I decided to use a 555 timer chip to shut down the power to Sanyo (both units have these breakers).
It comes back on after 50-60 seconds, and the system restarts within 5 minutes.

waynefromnscanada

Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

XRinger wrote: »

At first, I tried a 15A and it wouldn't drop out, so I added an out-board 10A breaker (Din rail type), still wouldn't pop..

Then, I realized that electromechanical breakers weren't going to work. They are make to withstand large surges of power when large HVAC motors start up..
So, I used a sensitive current detector (from Ebay).. Here's a link to my breaker Blog.. http://ecorenovator.org/forum/appliances-gadgets/1490-diy-230vac-adjustable-power-limiter.html

In the end, I decided to use a 555 timer chip to shut down the power to Sanyo (both units have these breakers).
It comes back on after 50-60 seconds, and the system restarts within 5 minutes.

Great info! Thanks for all that
I probably won't use the 555 to initiate a restart, as it will only be myself operating things, and I'd want it to shut down and stay down, if for any reason the draw goes too high when I'm not around. On the other hand, it could come in handy detecting a prolonged cloud cover vrs just a passing cloud. Gotta love the 555, so many uses, including timing the non-standard starter circuitry on my modified freezer to fridge, so it will start and run off the little Morningstar inverter

Ralph Day

Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

Aren't they great Wayne? I have the same setup, two outlets side by side, one grid, one renewables. As far as losing sun when you're not around...I'll just leave it on the grid outlet if there's the chance of losing sun for long.

Have you noticed that once the air is conditioned there's little to no condensate? And if it wasn't so efficient and cheap to run I'd consider more panels...but a day's worth of utility cooling is only 25cents cost, so justifying more pv is beyond tough.

Renewables for heat in the late fall? Not for me, maybe in late Feb, March and April there'll be enough sun to run it off renewables, but I have my doubts.

Ralph

on edit: Even running at max the unit only draws 7-9 amps, and slowly up to that level. How would you ever trip a breaker with one of these unless there was a catastrophic fault?

XRinger

Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

"if it wasn't so efficient and cheap to run I'd consider more panels.."

That's why I'm not considering a PV-GTI setup. Buying KW hours at $0.1661 USD is a pretty good deal.
My whole electric bill is a lot less than I pay for our FIOS 'bundle'.

If I live long enough to see 25 cents per KWh, maybe I'll look into grid-tie.. :roll:

Today, the 4th of July, it's going to get warm (and damp). We will be turning on the Sanyos.
But it's not going to be real hot. So, this PC & the Plasma TV (42" Panasonic) will likely use more power than the Sanyos.

Our power cost for the day will be between 2 and 3 bucks.. (See power use picture above)..


There are areas in America that pay a lot less than 16.61 cents per KHh..
Those folks living in the sun belt could really save a bunch on cooling, with an Inverter mini-split.
Plus, anyone heating their home with fuel oil could save too.
Our heating cost $ has been cut to about 1/3 of what it was with oil (depending on oil prices). When oil is at $4, we save big time!

Eric L

Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

Those folks living in the sun belt could really save a bunch on cooling, with an Inverter mini-split.

I'm sure you're right. One of the mini-tragedies in the southeast states over last two decades has been the over-sizing of heat pumps in humid locations (FL, GA, AL, etc.). People order over-sized heat pumps thinking it will keep them cooler, but since they are too large, they don't run enough to dehumidify the house properly. Consequently, the homeowner winds up dropping the temperature more to feel comfortable, thus using a lot more electricity than they would if they had a smaller heat-pump that ran longer and dehumidified properly.

Mini-splits would probably make a big difference in such cases, from the sounds of it.

That's why I'm not considering a PV-GTI setup. Buying KW hours at $0.1661 USD is a pretty good deal.

I've been following this thread with interest, but am oddly in a near-opposite position where it doesn't make sense for me to invest in a mini-split. Having built a large 'hobby' pv system that has turned out to be sufficient to run two inexpensive window units that keep our house cool during the day (thus keeping the central heat pump off), our summer electric bills are now running under $40, and that's for an all-electric house. So I actually have too much daytime pv power to justify an expensive mini-split right now, awesome though they sound.

XRinger

Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

Right after I posted, my wife asked me to turn on the Sanyos in dehumidify mode. Right now, it feels a lot nicer in here. Dryer.
When the overcast is gone, I'll switch them back to cooling again.

I can see why you would want to stick to using window units , since you have the 'free' power available.
But, these systems make so little noise, compared to a Wall Shaker (or as I call my 18k in-wall, a House Shaker).
Our 3 little cool-only AC units are going to be recycled..

There is no massive WAKE UP! jolt when these systems change modes (run and standby).
My wife hated having a little 6,000 BTUh in the bedroom. Drove her nuts..

waynefromnscanada

Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

Ralph Day wrote: »

Aren't they great Wayne? I have the same setup, two outlets side by side, one grid, one renewables. As far as losing sun when you're not around...I'll just leave it on the grid outlet if there's the chance of losing sun for long.

Have you noticed that once the air is conditioned there's little to no condensate? And if it wasn't so efficient and cheap to run I'd consider more panels...but a day's worth of utility cooling is only 25cents cost, so justifying more pv is beyond tough.

Renewables for heat in the late fall? Not for me, maybe in late Feb, March and April there'll be enough sun to run it off renewables, but I have my doubts.

Ralph

on edit: Even running at max the unit only draws 7-9 amps, and slowly up to that level. How would you ever trip a breaker with one of these unless there was a catastrophic fault?

Well Ralph, I'm extremely impressed with it. I won't be using mine for renewables heat come fall, it will be for cooling, as the low fall sun actually overheats the place, but on those days, there will be plenty of power to run the cooling mode. Gotta love it
The grid will be providing heat when it's needed and there's no wood fire.
Yes, it really dries out the place and it's true, we do feel a lot cooler with dry air. Was amazed at how much water was dribbling out the drain the first while it was turned on. Far more than from any AC I've ever had! Then it eased right off as things dried out.
And the 8 or 9 amps - - that really surprised me, considering the suggested 12 guage wire and 20 amp breaker! I've since replaced it with a 15. And was thinking last evening, considering how little power it uses if not pushed hard, I might try it on one of the Morningstar SureSime 300 inverters. Unheard of running a full sized AC on such a little inverter! Hahaha. Only thing is the high VA compared to watts, the SS300 may not like that, but we shall see