Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

XRinger

Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

When it's mild out during the summer, we will set the Sanyo to the Dehumidify Mode
and set the temperature one degree lower than room temp.

The fan runs slow (when left in Auto mode) and takes about 5 pints an hour out of the air.
However, it might get a bit too cool indoors, if it's in the low 70s and cloudy outdoors.

I use the Dehumidify Mode on both of our Sanyos, when I want to force a Defrost operation.
A small amount of indoor cooling occurs, but manual defrost works a lot faster than the normal *defrost cycle.
(*Which does the same thing, but without the indoor fan coming on).

Sometimes in snowy weather, so much ice will accumulate, it can take 25 or 30 minutes to clear it.
But while the ice/frost is building up, power is being wasted because of low air flow.
So, when I notice higher power use, I try to intercede and start my own defrost cycle..

Anyways, during the summer the cooling mode keeps the house nice and dry..
And, I'm really liking the way I can avoid weeks of irritated eyes during the pollen season.
Leaving the house closed up and using the AC on those mild spring days, doesn't use
much power..
Plus, if I wanted just to clean the air, there is a Fan-Only mode that hardly uses any power..

Dave Angelini

Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

Are any of the other units beside Sanyo (which does not) able to program an hourly change in temperature? If you are running off solar and have the increase in power until noon and the decrease untill sundown it would be great to put some intelligence into the system. I know Rich uses the solid state restart to sort of accomplish this but that really is another problem that might not be needed (as much) if the unit was being programmed.

What about a learning remote that could run a program for hourly programed temperature delta? Any ideas?

XRinger

Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

Dave Sparks wrote: »

Are any of the other units beside Sanyo (which does not) able to program an hourly change in temperature? If you are running off solar and have the increase in power until noon and the decrease untill sundown it would be great to put some intelligence into the system. I know Rich uses the solid state restart to sort of accomplish this but that really is another problem that might not be needed (as much) if the unit was being programmed.

What about a learning remote that could run a program for hourly programed temperature delta? Any ideas?

I've been thinking about that kind of scheme for a while now.. But, all that I could come up with was the same idea as yours.
A programmable remote IR gizmo or build a fancy little uP controller board project..

Until today, that is!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermoelectric_cooling

You make a device called a Peltier Table.
It's two pieces of aluminum 2"x2"x0.25" plate, sandwiching a Peltier Device (aka Peltier CPU cooler).
Connect the Peltier power wires to a 12V 10W PV panel.
Place the table in a dish, then mount your remote (using the bracket) on a block of Canadian Redwood,
so the sensor end can hang out, over the Peltier Table.
In the summer, set the hot side of the Peltier Table up, in the winter, turn it upside down.

You will have to tweak it, for each season, but it should be able to trick your Remote into
thinking it's really hot (while the sun is really hitting the PV hard), so the Sanyo cools like crazy..

And in the winter, it should make your Sanyo think it's just too dang cool in the house.. 8)

~~~
I got this idea from the old trick of putting a light blub (on a timer) under a wall thermostat. (Pre-setbacks).

If didn't want to buy and install a 10W PV, you could rig a cheap programmable timer, or wall thermostat,
to turn on a Peltier Table at certain times of the day.. Just need a good relay & a 12V PS.

A programmable thermostat controlling the Peltier(& Sanyo) might be good,
to keep your house from getting too cold during the summer.
If it was left in cooling mode and set to 65F, it would turn off the Peltier and stop tricking (warming) the remote..

~~~

Free Solar Control : (Nothing to buy).
Just for summer use, you could find a spot near a SW window, that was sunny during the hot part of the day,
and place the remote right there in the sun. (You might have to filter the sun a bit if it's really a hot spot).

When the sun was good and hot, the Remote would send the Sanyo information about the Sun's power,
instead of how cool it was in the shaded parts of the room.. Might work with some tweaking..

XRinger

Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

For those unfamiliar with the Sanyo ASHP (Mini-Split), the remote control: Is the thermostat.


The venting in the top (left in pic) allows air flow to the thermistor.

A data packet/burst is transmitted whenever a button is pressed, and every 5 minutes.
The data burst contains all the information needed to control the Sanyo's operation.

Battery Backup:
After a power failure, the Sanyo will shut down (close it's vent etc) when the power is restored.
But, within 5 minutes, the remote (uses two AA cells) sends another data burst to the Sanyo.
Which will turn it back on and resume pre-power fail operations. (As remembered by the remote).

If the AA cells die, or the remote is taken out of range (it needs to 'see' the Sanyo IDU),
the Sanyo will maintain it's current operation and switch to using an on-board thermistor.
That sensor is located in the air input vent of the IDU. (Indoor unit).

There is a small button on the remote, that can manually select the on-board sensor.

techntrek

Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

It would be pretty Frankenstein, but you could open up the remote and add external wires to the temp up/down control pads. Then you could use several options to precisely change the temp. The hard-wired optional thermostat might be better for this.

SteveK

Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

Dave Sparks wrote: »

Are any of the other units beside Sanyo (which does not) able to program an hourly change in temperature? If you are running off solar and have the increase in power until noon and the decrease untill sundown it would be great to put some intelligence into the system. I know Rich uses the solid state restart to sort of accomplish this but that really is another problem that might not be needed (as much) if the unit was being programmed.

What about a learning remote that could run a program for hourly programed temperature delta? Any ideas?

This is what you seek? This works on Mitsu city multi's and Mr Slims as well. http://www.mitsubishielectric.com.au/2328.htm

Dave Angelini

Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

This is interesting Steve, 8 patterns per day? Have you tried any of this? What do you think Rich?

Dave Angelini

Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

techntrek wrote: »

It would be pretty Frankenstein, but you could open up the remote and add external wires to the temp up/down control pads. Then you could use several options to precisely change the temp. The hard-wired optional thermostat might be better for this.

True Thanks!

I was thinking a learning remote with the stock remote all talking, running an increment temperature change hourly. Doing this with the Rich brute force reset for clouds or low battery. Offgrid we still are in the early stages of making this easy. I would think that once a smart grid inverter is avalilable and a smart heat pump the issue I have will help grid-tie folks also.

XRinger

Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

I've been using these Sanyos for heating for a while now. Since I don't work, the only set-back we do is at night.
Before I go to sleep, I change them from 21C down to 20C (69.8F down to 68F).
Whoever gets up first in the AM, cranks them back up to 21C.
Sometimes, we forget and don't notice it's a little bit cooler.
I usually set them to 20C when we go out for a few hours.

I don't think that big set-backs save much, due to the power used to get back to normal.
I've heard a lot of people say large setbacks should not be used with heatpumps or mini-splits.

With the warming trend we've been seeing, they just idle for hours, so we shut them off..
The crankcase heaters still use some power. (Only on larger models).

This summer, you should try the "Free Solar Control" idea above.
Especially if you have excess PV power midday. I think it might work pretty well.. :cool:

Cheers,
Rich

SteveK

Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

No Dave I've not tried this controller. My solar setup is woefully inadequate to even consider what you intend. If I am understanding this correctly, you wish to utilize times at which the solar gain and sulight exposure to the panels is highest to invest more into the thermal mass of the home. Conversely less when there is less sun. Correct? It would seem that with 8 setpoints you could set a pretty smooth bell curve of tightly woven setpoints over the course of an 8 hour day. I might be overly simple here too. It's happened before....

Dave Angelini

Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

SteveK wrote: »

No Dave I've not tried this controller. My solar setup is woefully inadequate to even consider what you intend. If I am understanding this correctly, you wish to utilize times at which the solar gain and sulight exposure to the panels is highest to invest more into the thermal mass of the home. Conversely less when there is less sun. Correct? It would seem that with 8 setpoints you could set a pretty smooth bell curve of tightly woven setpoints over the course of an 8 hour day. I might be overly simple here too. It's happened before....

I tried to load the manual to the link but I was at work and one phase of our power was out from a stormy weekend. Yes you understand my dilemma. I would think that 4 set-point decreases over 7am until 11 am for cooling would be good. For heating they would be increases and probably only 3 needed due to the shorter days of heating season. After thinking about it some more the bell curve would be nice but overkill. The real key for offgrid is to keep the power low before 9am for cooling, and have small increases over time for heating to keep the unit from going to max output.

With heating we just warm the house up to 78 F at sundown and shut down when the days are sunny. Some of my clients use propane or wood heating as we do when there is not a surplus of solar. Don't get me wrong, I really am very happy with the unit but I know that there is more work to do.

Utana

Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

Okay, I've finally measured my house where I want the first unit and ran through the calculations (thanks for the web page for that!), and found out a 12000 is actually the right size. Yay! Now for another question. Looking at some of the installation videos out there it caught my attention that those who install these professionally drill the hole to the outside at a downward angle to ensure the condensate doesn't leak. This is a sticky part for me. After really looking through the part of the house we want to install this first unit, we don't have any wall space high on the wall that isn't covered by windows and/or doors. The best place to put the unit will be on an interior wall and I would have to run the line set through the wall either over the ceiling or through some cabinets in the kitchen and out over the porch and then around to an outside wall. I don't really want to use a condensate pump if I can avoid it. I could run the drain line separately out the wall and down the hole in the floor, where our fridge water comes in, then out of the crawlspace below the house, but not sure how well that will work. Any thoughts ideas?

Kelly

solar_dave

Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

Perhaps you need to look at a different brand that provides a ceiling mounted indoor unit.

XRinger

Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

I had the same problem. Windows all over the place.. Our Den has way too much glass.. (100 sq feet).

BUT, You don't have to actually mount your indoor unit (IDU) up near the ceiling for it work. Check out his low install.


Read about it at:
http://ecorenovator.org/forum/geothermal/1815-2-sanyo-24khs72-ac-hp-install-project-oct-2011-a.html

The heating mode actually works really well, when the heat source is down low.
And for cooling, my install is at about the same height as window installed AC.

IMHO, with the IDU right up near the warm ceiling is going to suck extremely warm (or hot) air off the ceiling.
If you attic insulation isn't so super, your system is going to be working extra hard..

But, cool air drops to the floor, so my low mounted IDU will be sucking in air that's already pretty cool.
(Air intake is on the top of the IDU).
The chilled air shooting out the lower vent, is at lap level of people sitting in the Den.

As I sit watching the TV, I feel cool air right on me, (like a window AC) and could care
less, if there is much warmer air a few feet above my head.


I think the install manuals were written for Cool-Only systems.. Heating works better down low!

Cheers,
Rich

XRinger

Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

"downward angle to ensure the condensate doesn't leak"..

It's only a slight angle, to insure the drain hose is pointing downhill.
If you forgot and drilled it flat, it would likely work okay.
As long as the hose wasn't pointing uphill.

One thing you want to check is the hose isn't pinched-off by the lineset insulation.
If it's crushed, water will run down your wall..
So, blow some air up into the bottom of the drain hose, to make sure it's open.
If it's not open, you can shove some small 3/8" hose up inside it, to provide a path for the condensate.

Utana

Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

Luckily I haven't drilled anything yet or done anything at all for this. I'm just looking at potential locations and trying to work out the drain problem. Your photo and the other forum you linked to gave me a great idea. That's an inside wall you mounted it too and you ran the lines straight down into the floor instead of going through the wall. Then out the crawl space. This opens up a great, uncomplicated, possibility for me now. Thanks!! My only issue is that our crawl space is surrounded by stone masonary, and it will be difficult to get the line set through that. I'll have to take a look.

Did you take a photo of where your drain line comes out and where the water goes? That's my biggest concern, not backing that up. I like how you hooked it to that bigger more durable black line. Theoretically, I could possibly get some of that stuff then run it all the way to the septic drain in the open basement part of the house if I needed to, but we already have moisture problems in there and I'd rather run it straight outside.

Utana

Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

solar_dave wrote: »

Perhaps you need to look at a different brand that provides a ceiling mounted indoor unit.

I've whittled down my choices to a 12000 BTU 23 SEER Mitsubishi unit, which does have ceiling mounts and lower wall mounts available, but it would cost about $1000 more to get one of these instead of the regular wall unit. Trying to avoid that extra cost if I can.

XRinger

Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

The drain hose out of my IDU was too short, so I screwed in a brass fitting and added a couple of feet of clear plastic line..
The flow rate out of the IDU is VERY slow.. A 1/4" ID hose would handle a 36,000 BTU system.

It's not too hard to make a hole in bricks. Just need the right tool.

Utana

Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

Unfortunately our foundation wall isn't brick, its granite. Maybe I could find a spot where the mortar between the stone is wide enough and drill through that. There's also some places where there are access areas, but that will mean a longer line set.

techntrek

Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

Do you have a septic line in your crawl space? Install a trap in it from above, fill the trap with water, then you can install your drain line.

techntrek

Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

Can anyone with a Mitsubishi confirm the actual max wattage, in heating and cooling mode? Looking to order one soon and I'm starting to figure out logistics - like if I'll put the one in my most-used room on my UPS panel so I can run it from batteries or Prius (or my larger genset when it is running).

Dave Angelini

Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

I would like to know also! FYI the Sanyo 9,000 Btu can easily use 1750 watts in max heat mode. I really do not know anyone who can run that kind of power off batteries, very long! I have 2 freinds who have 96KWH banks and even they run heat pumps only when the sun is out offgrid.

XRinger

Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

techntrek wrote: »

Can anyone with a Mitsubishi confirm the actual max wattage, in heating and cooling mode? Looking to order one soon and I'm starting to figure out logistics - like if I'll put the one in my most-used room on my UPS panel so I can run it from batteries or Prius (or my larger genset when it is running).

Do you have a model (or BTUh) level in mind? My Sanyo 24,000 BTUh units can use 280w to 2.5kw
depending on the weather.

Check the Power Input spec. (abt 8 lines down).



Because these are inverter units and vary the amount of power being used, every few minutes,
There won't be any fixed number you can use.
This winter, when it was pretty cold, my Sanyos were each using 400 to 600w each.. Abt 24 kWh per day.

JimMariner

Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

That certainly was a long read

I have been interested in a 120 Volt Sanyo Split System for years now. I won't have much use for the heat side of it, but it sure does look COOL to me.

This thread has been very enlightening !!

If and when I do it, it will only be for a master bedroom, so it can be used via a GenSet during an extended outage.

Nice thread everyone !!

Utana

Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

Well, I took the plunge! My new Mitsubishi 12000 BTU, 23 SEER, mini-split is on the way. The location is all selected and I've ordered a 25' line-set/electrical wire/drain line that should be just the right size for the locations we've planned. My husband called an HVAC guy to do the final inspection, testing, and hook-up for the freon tubing.

FYI for those asking about wattage: The web site where I bought my unit specifies that the heating wattage is 950 and cooling wattage is 930 for the unit I purchased. If you go up to a 17 SEER unit with 24000 BTUs the wattage goes up to 2330 for heating and 2270 for cooling, very similar to XRinger's Sanyo unit.

I'm excited and a little nervous about this installation due to the interesting location we have chosen. Should be an interesting project for sure.

Kelly

Dave Angelini

Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

Keep in mind that the power specs are average with cycling between different amounts during an hour based on what you program! The average is very useful for grid tie but the peak power is where offgrid folks get mislead. Even running the heat pump in float with full sun there still will be conversion loss from the inverter to add to the load.

techntrek

Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

I'm looking at the 9 and 12 k BTU Mitsu units. I checked the specs online for both of them before posting my question - I just want to get a real-world peak measurement.

SteveK

Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

Don't be nervous Kelly. They are a dream come true.

techntrek

Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

Anyone with peak readings for Dave and me?

SteveK

Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

No, Tech. I've only monitored both units together at the brnch circuit. On the coldest day I only remember ~9.2A across both. It might have been more at some point and I did not see it.
Never did get a datalogger.