Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

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  • SteveK
    SteveK Solar Expert Posts: 387 ✭✭
    #302
    Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

    Rich, I use the Nyle Geyser HPWH. We too experience ~50F in the basement in the winter where it is installed. It works well down there and we spend ~$16 per month on hot water in the winter. Like you said, the dehumidification is very welcome here too.

    The Geyser is a retrofit unit that connects to the existing electric WH tank. It can utilize one element in the water tank if needed however we do not. The outlet air can be ducted which is great for our application. They were at $950 last fall, direct from the factory in ME. Qualified for the tax credit too.
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  • XRinger
    XRinger Solar Expert Posts: 529 ✭✭✭
    #303
    Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

    'The honeymoon is over' is right.. But the weekend is looking pretty nice..

    Be careful trusting the forecast. Sometimes they can be off by 8 or 10 degrees (at your house).
    At 5F the Sanyos should be okay.. But if it drops much under that..?. Our COP will drop in a rock-like fashion.. :(

    We had a good sized group here on Xmas Eve and those Sanyos worked beautifully..
    And it was 24.2 °F (average) on the 24th.. http://pauland.net/archive.php
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  • XRinger
    XRinger Solar Expert Posts: 529 ✭✭✭
    #304
    Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)
    SteveK wrote: »
    Rich, I use the Nyle Geyser HPWH. We too experience ~50F in the basement in the winter where it is installed. It works well down there and we spend ~$16 per month on hot water in the winter. Like you said, the dehumidification is very welcome here too.

    The Geyser is a retrofit unit that connects to the existing electric WH tank. It can utilize one element in the water tank if needed however we do not. The outlet air can be ducted which is great for our application. They were at $950 last fall, direct from the factory in ME. Qualified for the tax credit too.

    And that's in a 760 sq/ft unheated basement? If it is, I'm sold..
    Even if used more kWhs heating up my old boiler, it would be worth it, to get rid of that old oil tank!


    I assume you are paying about the same per kWh as we are in Woburn.. (16.18 cents per kWh total).

    Cheers,
    Rich

    Edit:
    Found this useful post:
    http://nepacrossroads.com/about20361-15.html#p241354
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  • SteveK
    SteveK Solar Expert Posts: 387 ✭✭
    #305
    Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

    No, we pay $0.117 per kwh. We figure $0.124 with fees.

    It is as you describe though three walls are insulated to R-10. Floor concrete, windows single pane DSB glass, uninsulated door. It's a 3/4 buried basement and unfinished/unheated. The coal stoker is there if we need it.

    Last year we built a mechanical room to get all the solar, water heater, laundry, chest freezer in that room. We insulated that room. The appliances keeps the room 5 degrees higher than the rest of the basement. The HPWH exhausts from there into the colder part of the basement. 50F in the cold part, 55-56F in the mech room.
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  • XRinger
    XRinger Solar Expert Posts: 529 ✭✭✭
    #306
    Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

    I've seen the Geyser install video before (high mount in a shop) and it sure looks easy to get going..

    I wonder if using a bigger unit might be better, since my 76 gallon boiler leaks a bit of heat.?.
    I'm thinking maybe a DIY 16,000 BTUh unit might be a better choice, and give us a faster recovery time..
    Of course the basement temps would take a terrific dive when it cranked up!
    I'm sure it would be great during the summer. When the shower is used a lot more,
    and the basement is warm and dank..


    It's 19 deg F here right now and the Sanyos are using 1.33 KW..
    The average for today has been 1.0 KW, so we are looking at
    some serious power use tonight.
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  • techntrek
    techntrek Solar Expert Posts: 1,372 ✭✭✭
    #307
    Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

    Neat looking boiler, XRinger. Does it have two fireboxes on the right side?
    4.5 kw APC UPS powered by a Prius, 12 kw Generac, Honda EU3000is
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  • XRinger
    XRinger Solar Expert Posts: 529 ✭✭✭
    #308
    Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)
    techntrek wrote: »
    Neat looking boiler, XRinger. Does it have two fireboxes on the right side?

    The clean-out is on the bottom and the top is where you load the solid fuel..
    The coal grate is installed, but right now, that whole firebox is filled with FG insulation,
    because I have a big resistance heater in the clean-out. (fed by the 800w PV array).
    The air intake (for solid fuel only) is a chain going down to the little door on the bottom.
    A bi-metal controlled arm lifts it open when the water jacket cools down.

    I can convert it back to wood or coal in about 10 minutes.

    With free flow turned on, this big steel monster can heat my house
    for hours on a few chunks of wood.. Without being on the grid.
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  • SteveK
    SteveK Solar Expert Posts: 387 ✭✭
    #309
    Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

    Wish I could put up some nice graphs like you have. I've been testing some temps tonight though. Right now at 13F the 12k split is producing 129F air with an intake temperature of 74F. So we have a ways to go before we fall off the cliff.

    Your idea of a DIY HPWH sounds like a hoot. I wonder what could be done to bring the system outside instead of the basement at all? I know we can't duct our HPWH out of doors because the heater would freeze. Your setup sounds better for this.
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  • XRinger
    XRinger Solar Expert Posts: 529 ✭✭✭
    #310
    Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

    It's been going down since lunch (Tue 1/3/2012). Forecast to be at 6.0F at 6AM..
    tempdaycomp.png
    This should be a live look, real time display. From a guy over on the next block. http://pauland.net/daily.php


    Sounds like you got it cranked up over there. The Sanyos are down to 19C (66.2F) right now.

    The average temperature during the last 22 hours, was 24.3 °F.. (and dropping). We used 23.9 kWh...
    Yesterday, the average was 39.5 °F, that's a pretty big difference. I think we used about 14 kWhs..

    ~~~

    I like the idea of locating a DIY HPWH outdoors. It would be very cheap to run during the summer months.
    However, if I was using a compressor from an old 18,000 BTU AC (Sears Kenmore), it wouldn't work well in cold weather.
    But, it might work pretty well in a cool basement during a cold winter..

    IMHO, the best way would be to use a high SEER mini-split outdoor unit with R410A-to-water heat exchanger.
    That rig would work super in summer and do pretty well for 90% of the winter..
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  • SteveK
    SteveK Solar Expert Posts: 387 ✭✭
    #311
    Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

    Woke up to 7F outdoor temps today. Checked the temps in the indoor units. It goes like this:

    9k unit roomT 72F, intake air 74F, output air 115F
    12k unit room 72F, intake air 74F, output air 132F

    Of course, no data on useage because Santa did not bring me what I asked for Christmas. But yes, these things work well at 7F..... Remember, just 21K in a 770 sq/ft home with particular attention paid to quality insulation and windows...no other heat source.

    edit: It is worth noting a this point that the coal stoker would start to follow the outdoor temperature at this OD temperature of 7F. This with the stoker centralized in the kitchen, living room temps would begin to track the falling mercury outside. Not so now with the new H2i systems because one of them is in the livingroom and one in the kitchen.

    I should add that the units track each other very well with 2 zones open to each other..and they are far from the maximum cfm speed of the indoor units (by ear).

    When we were fitted for new systems in the fall I recall the heat load calculations to be 8.5K in the kitchen (so we went with a 12k unit), and 6.4K in the LR (so we went with a 9K unit there). But these units were never really supposed to play the role of "whole house heating". Though they are doing well in that role....
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  • XRinger
    XRinger Solar Expert Posts: 529 ✭✭✭
    #312
    Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

    The Sanyos did okay too. After midnight, I set them down to 19C and went to bed.
    We were using a lot of juice. 15.3 kWh during the last 9 hours. 1.7 / 2 = 850 watts each.
    The basement is at 47F this morning! But the house stayed at 19C and is now coming up to 20C.. ;)

    Late last night, I compared the outputs of the two units and it seems like
    the repaired unit (#2) matches well with the main LR unit (#1).

    The last time it was this cold around here, was Jan 24 2011..

    My new alarm went off at 6AM, when it dropped to 9.5F outside..
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  • SteveK
    SteveK Solar Expert Posts: 387 ✭✭
    #313
    Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

    Your usage sound ominous but that's only ~$5 a day in the worst conceivable circumstance!...lol. $150/mo is chump change at these temps. I'll take that over dumping ashes daily for sure.

    Did you use any oil for heat in those 9 hrs?
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  • techntrek
    techntrek Solar Expert Posts: 1,372 ✭✭✭
    #314
    Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)
    XRinger wrote: »
    The clean-out is on the bottom and the top is where you load the solid fuel..
    ...
    With free flow turned on, this big steel monster can heat my house
    for hours on a few chunks of wood.. Without being on the grid.

    Ah, that makes sense, my father has a wood burning furnace with the same configuration, and my wood stove is similar. Didn't put 2 and 2 together, duh!

    Definitely a nice backup DHW + space heater if the stuff ever hits the fan. All the nice COPs and SEERs in the world won't matter if the grid is down for a month in January. Wood to the rescue for you, and me (I get 80% of my living space heat from my stove already and could do 100% if necessary, but no easy way to heat my water once I run out of fuel for my genset).
    4.5 kw APC UPS powered by a Prius, 12 kw Generac, Honda EU3000is
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  • XRinger
    XRinger Solar Expert Posts: 529 ✭✭✭
    #315
    Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)
    SteveK wrote: »
    Your usage sound ominous but that's only ~$5 a day in the worst conceivable circumstance!...lol. $150/mo is chump change at these temps. I'll take that over dumping ashes daily for sure.

    Did you use any oil for heat in those 9 hrs?
    No oil was used until 7AM when the timer ran the burner for 30 minutes to heat up our DHW.. :(

    The TED is Projecting $107 (for heating), with 20 days left in the cycle. It's usually pretty accurate.
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  • techntrek
    techntrek Solar Expert Posts: 1,372 ✭✭✭
    #316
    Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)
    SteveK wrote: »
    Woke up to 7F outdoor temps today. Checked the temps in the indoor units. It goes like this:

    9k unit room 72F, intake air 74F, output air 115F
    12k unit room 72F, intake air 74F, output air 132F

    Friggin' sweet! Definitely the kind of stats I was hoping for. I'm almost rooting for a 0 F or even -5 F night so I can see your results then. 8)

    Got down to 7 at my place as of 6 am. I kept my wood stove cranked wide open last night. Normally I wouldn't need to do that even at these temps but I had to let the fire go out yesterday afternoon so I could replace a door seal that I have put off replacing far too long. Which meant I was trying to catch up until I went to bed. A little extra propane heat helped to catch up but it would have been nice to have a mini-split in place for that, instead.

    It is in the budget, saving money with every paycheck. This spring.... this spring.
    4.5 kw APC UPS powered by a Prius, 12 kw Generac, Honda EU3000is
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  • XRinger
    XRinger Solar Expert Posts: 529 ✭✭✭
    #317
    Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)
    techntrek wrote: »
    Ah, that makes sense, my father has a wood burning furnace with the same configuration, and my wood stove is similar. Didn't put 2 and 2 together, duh!

    Definitely a nice backup DHW + space heater if the stuff ever hits the fan. All the nice COPs and SEERs in the world won't matter if the grid is down for a month in January. Wood to the rescue for you, and me (I get 80% of my living space heat from my stove already and could do 100% if necessary, but no easy way to heat my water once I run out of fuel for my genset).

    I have a 5KW gas generator that can run one of the Sanyos, but not for more than a few days.
    We also have some PV that could be helpful during a long grid failure. At least for the lighter loads..
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  • techntrek
    techntrek Solar Expert Posts: 1,372 ✭✭✭
    #318
    Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

    Get enough PV to run your circulation pump and you are all set.
    4.5 kw APC UPS powered by a Prius, 12 kw Generac, Honda EU3000is
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  • XRinger
    XRinger Solar Expert Posts: 529 ✭✭✭
    #319
    Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)
    techntrek wrote: »
    Get enough PV to run your circulation pump and you are all set.
    During normal days of normal winter temperatures, the system can run without using the circulation pump.
    http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f147/Xringer/Solar/freeflow.jpg
    There is one of these free-flow valves in each loop. Just turn the knob on top CCW and hot water will
    flow into the baseboards via convection..
    4.5 turns opens it to 'low' flow.. :)
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  • SteveK
    SteveK Solar Expert Posts: 387 ✭✭
    #320
    Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)
    techntrek wrote: »
    Friggin' sweet!

    My feelings exactly..:cool:

    Rigged a clamp on ammeter tonight. Don't think any useful info will come of it since I can't log and the number is a moving target. I need Rich's setup.

    We still have an old Woodchuck wood/stove coal furnace in the basement. It's a central forced hot air furnace. We used it 2 years with wood and one with stove coal. It consumed wood nearly by the wheel barrow full. In order to reduce the smoke we needed to rally ramp it up. Got around 9hr burns though. Ducts are looong gone.

    Until this year we were running heat strictly through solar, off grid style. Now we run a fridge instead of it along with the freezer and sometimes other things. Fridges and freezers are pretty tame in a ~50F environment. On better solar production days in late winter I can run the HPWH for a couple hours a day as it's 110V and relatively low current.
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  • XRinger
    XRinger Solar Expert Posts: 529 ✭✭✭
    #321
    Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

    You can use that 'clamp on ammeter' to get some basic readings.
    Keep an eye on your IDU's output and you will notice there is a base minimum
    zone, where it likes to run when running in maintain mode.
    Mine is about 440-480 watts, during average heating weather (30 to 40 F)

    Might be best to check this measurement out when it's 20 to 40F to get
    a rough idea of how much juice you system is using Most of the time..

    You can also look at the peaks (calling for 5 degrees of heating) and see
    if you are running near the max spec or not..

    The current weather is good, (at least on the Sanyos) because it shows
    you what's being used when it gets really cold..
    Right now, it's 25F and we're using 1.36 kw total. (680 watts on each Sanyo).
    If we just use 1.36 x 19 hours (since midnight) that's about 26 kWh...

    The TED LCD says we really used 21 kWh today. I did notice a couple
    of times today (when the sun was coming in a little ) the usage was only 30-40w.. Idle mode..

    We might break a record today.. We could hit 28 kWh at midnight.. :grr

    PS:
    I did a rough study of the 60 coldest days of the winter, by looking up at some old records,
    and I think the average temperature around here, is well above 25F..

    And the average temp of the whole heating season, is pretty mild..
    We are living in ASHP land.. Don't need to did up the backyard around here!! 8)
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  • SteveK
    SteveK Solar Expert Posts: 387 ✭✭
    #322
    Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

    Alright I did that. I raised the temp 2 degrees and read the ammeter. Both units together are drawing 10.9A and the outlet temps are 9k=131F 12k=145F. It is 20F outside.

    From the specs it says I should provide for 12A per unit ampacity 15A. So I guess they are running at 50% right now? Maintaining they are swinging around 7-8A...the 9k unit switches off sometimes and the current drops to ~4.5A.

    This is with a Harbor Freight $9.99 ammeter on the 200A range so take this with a grain of salt...heh.

    Darned toasty, got to hurry back out there and turn the heat back down otherwise I will have a spoiled wife to heat...lol
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  • XRinger
    XRinger Solar Expert Posts: 529 ✭✭✭
    #323
    Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

    Nice! Sounds like you are seeing the expected power use. Check your line voltage and convert to watts to calculate your cost..

    I can't believe how flat the temp has been lately. Around here it's been very close to 25F since yesterday at 13:00.
    We've used 10.5 kWh in 9 hours, (running mostly 19C) so now I have a good idea of my power usage,
    for the coldest 60 days of the year.. 1.16 kW x 24 hours = 28 kWh per day. (Projected worse case).

    Now, if I see more than 28kWh per day and hasn't been at 25F all day, I'll know something is up..
    Maybe leaves on the input? IDU filters need cleaning? Or worse!!

    Speaking of filters, check out my filter mod..
    http://ecorenovator.org/forum/geothermal/1935-sanyo-24khs72-filter-mod.html
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  • techntrek
    techntrek Solar Expert Posts: 1,372 ✭✭✭
    #324
    Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

    Just amazes me that it can pull 145 degree heat out of 20 degree air.
    4.5 kw APC UPS powered by a Prius, 12 kw Generac, Honda EU3000is
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  • XRinger
    XRinger Solar Expert Posts: 529 ✭✭✭
    #325
    Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)
    techntrek wrote: »
    Just amazes me that it can pull 145 degree heat out of 20 degree air.

    I don't think these Sanyos run that hot. Like right now, it's 31 deg F outdoors (70 inside) and the Sanyos
    are burning up 1 kW (500w each). Just loafing along with the fans at a low speed shooting out 90 deg F air..

    If I cranked them up (call for 75F), the ODU would get loud, and IDU fans would kick up to high speed,
    but the coils would be around 120F..
    And my wife would be yelling, "What are you trying to do? Roast us alive?".. ;)

    Just look at the pressures you need for R410A to get up to 130 deg F..

    Cheers,
    Rich
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  • SteveK
    SteveK Solar Expert Posts: 387 ✭✭
    #326
    Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

    I'm getting my temps from two sources. A wireless weather station fo OD temps and an infrared thermometer for the others. I wonder if I'm not reading the coil temp versus the air temp....or even if it matters.
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  • XRinger
    XRinger Solar Expert Posts: 529 ✭✭✭
    #327
    Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

    It's very hard to read 'air' with my IR pistola, so I just point it up into the bottom of the IDU vent.. I assume it's reading the HX coil..
    Someday, maybe soon, I'll have sensors on the two copper line-set tubes, (at the ODU) so I can see how well they are working..
    By using the lineset temp differential + the outdoor temp + the power use, with a little math.. I should be able to come up with a performance factor number.
    I can use that Number to compare my two systems and to monitor for problems.. Like a slow leak etc..

    http://ecorenovator.org/forum/appliances-gadgets/1871-webcontrol-universal-industrial-controller.html#post17220
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  • SteveK
    SteveK Solar Expert Posts: 387 ✭✭
    #328
    Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

    I played around with the IR gun. I can get readings +/- 10F depending on how I approach the vanes with the gun. In one particular spot I can get the highest readings. I'll probably get some thermistors mounted in a bird cage housing to better measure air temps.

    Only problem is it's gonna get a tad bit ugly. And my wife doesn't do ugly real well.... I need her to love these things for next years' purchase.
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  • CDN_VT
    CDN_VT Solar Expert Posts: 492 ✭✭✭
    #329
    Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)
    SteveK wrote: »

    Only problem is it's gonna get a tad bit ugly. And my wife doesn't do ugly real well.... I need her to love these things for next years' purchase.

    I purchased a BUNCH of these


    I have extras still just in case , but 2 years strong & only now am I replacing the batteries (that I have bulk purchased from the same spot) .

    I have mounted them In the 2 deep freeze top's/lids so at a glance I know my ice cream is good to eat ;) , use some in the wine/beer making demijohns .

    For the fridge I use one of these

    It's neat , and gives me a quick glance check. E-bay has them on there also , just need to look.


    I must of Married your Wife's sister.

    VT
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  • SteveK
    SteveK Solar Expert Posts: 387 ✭✭
    #330
    Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

    You really helped me out here. That link is where I bought some night vision IR lamps for our security cameras from a few years ago. Lost the link and forgot the name. This place is great. The lamps have been in constant service outdoors 24/7 and were cheap as dirt. Great delivery too.

    Those thermometers couldn't be cheaper and would work well. Eventually I'd like to get more sophisticated with logging but a few of these would be handy no matter what.

    If you did marry her....would you mind coming to get her?..:grr
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  • XRinger
    XRinger Solar Expert Posts: 529 ✭✭✭
    #331
    Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

    I've ordered a bunch of small items from DX and mostly they've been good stuff..

    It got pretty cold here this AM.. Like a fool, I opened up the den curtains
    a little too early and added a bit too much load to my den Sanyo.

    Not sure, but I don't think it likes working so hard when it's 5 degrees..

    http://ecorenovator.org/forum/geothermal/1815-2-sanyo-24khs72-ac-hp-install-project-oct-2011-a-4.html#post19121

    Almost lunch time and it's already back up to 12.1°F !
    Humm, no more morning bike rides??
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