how does the electricity company know how much solar you have installed.

rollandelliott · October 2011

So I was quizzing my local electricity company about adding to my solar array and they said that if my array was bigger than 5KW AC than my net metering rate would change. When I tried to ask specifics he said I would go to a time of use rate or a demand rate. I asked him what the new rate would be he said that would depend on what time of day the AC was produced. I said well it's solar so around 9am to 4pm typically. He said he would look at my bill history and see what they could do as if their policies varied depending on individual circumstances. (maybe they do , but it seems unusual) Anyways, how do they know how big my solar is anyways? I'm probably not going to have a lot of excess energy if any. I supposed they could drive out to my home and count the panels and add it all up but I doubt it.

The interconnect agreement doesn't mention any of this. It says net metering applies for anything 20KW or smaller. Anything bigger than 20KW is in a different league.

I'm betting I could add more panels and they would not know. Seems a little odd to have a written interconnect agreement and then be told something different over the phone.

solar_dave · October 2011

Re: how does the electricity company know how much solar you have installed.

I would look at the web site for the utility. With mine all the documents are online that the utility commission has approved. Rate plans are notoriously in favor of the utility and the commissions are suppose to try and keep them honest. They had ours changed in favor of the customer just last year to settle up with a credit on the excess production.

Ours is still a little whacky in that the net-metering is only for the TOU when the generation took place. I saw that one of the California guys was getting a $$ credit from on-peak that could be applied to off-peak usage. Not the case here. It is kWh during the on-peak times are applied to on-peak usage only. So I still have to buy off-peak night time power for the AC while having over 1500 kWh available in my on-peak "bank".

BB. · October 2011

Re: how does the electricity company know how much solar you have installed.

The interconnect agreement was not the billing/tariff plan... At least not for my installation in California.

But--In California, the plan always was for people to owe ~zero at the end of one year--and any excess simply went back to the utility.

In the olden days--We had a choice of flat rate or time of use plan... Later, was changed to time of use plan and that cause people with small arrays (just trying the system out before installing a large array) to loose money with solar (their flat rate cost less than Time of Use with small amount of solar).

Today, as far as I know, new installs require a time of use plan with peak and partial peaks late into the evening--Not the best for solar and confusing to boot (winter/summer/weekend/holiday peak/off peak plan with ~4 tiers of billing based on kWH per month and where you live, if all electric home or not, etc.)...

Lots of unknowns how generic billing will affect a person's switch to solar (maybe, with the new smart meters posting back to the utility once an hour, they can actually model the payments based on real power usage and estimated solar production--yea--I am dreaming).

-Bill

TnAndy · October 2011

Re: how does the electricity company know how much solar you have installed.

They can tell real easy here, as we have a completely separate meter for our solar production. We get paid 12 cents/kwhr OVER retail ( which is just under 9 cents right now ) and it floats with whatever retail does. I don't think they care about system size under 50kw ( mine is now expanded to about 6kw in a 3rd expansion from intial 2.1kw )

Just passed 10,000 kw/hrs in 34 months of production....now doing 32kw/hrs/day on good days....and rolling the "buy" meter back 20-25hrs during the day to boot !

"Buy" meter on left in large base, "sell" meter to the right in small base:

ry%3D480

Blackcherry04 · October 2011

Re: how does the electricity company know how much solar you have installed.

Mine has a Smart meter and it has a rolling display that shows, Total Produced, Total Used, Total Net and Maximum Watt Output.

The Maximum Watt Output was set on certification of the system. They certified mine for 6900 Watts, and my max watt output has been 6400 or so. If I went over, they'd know pretty quick.

RCinFLA · October 2011

Re: how does the electricity company know how much solar you have installed.

Smart meters, like the one shown in picture, use RF link in the unlicensed ISM bands. Most are operating at 915 MHz but can also be 2.4 GHz. They transmit between 1/4 watt to up to 2 watts peak power.

Communications of collected data is normally four times per hour but can be less depending on traffic loading, interference, and system setup.

It is very similar to a computer system wireless local area network (WLAN).

Lawyers have lined up to represent groups of people to take shots at them, ranging from invasion of privacy to RF radiation health hazards.

niel · October 2011

Re: how does the electricity company know how much solar you have installed.

RCinFLA wrote: »

Smart meters, like the one shown in picture, use RF link in the unlicensed ISM bands. Most are operating at 915 MHz but can also be 2.4 GHz. They transmit between 1/4 watt to up to 2 watts peak power.

Communications of collected data is normally four times per hour but can be less depending on traffic loading, interference, and system setup.

It is very similar to a computer system wireless local area network (WLAN).

Lawyers have lined up to represent groups of people to take shots at them, ranging from invasion of privacy to RF radiation health hazards.

rc,
you're telling me something i wasn't aware of in the transmitters being in some of them. i would be curious as to the location of the receiver(s). on pole or sat?

i would think if people knew they could block that signal that given enough people doing it that they would stop the wireless aspect.

BB. · October 2011

Re: how does the electricity company know how much solar you have installed.

Yes, they use pole mounted receivers. Here is a website with a few different types shown (including decorative fixtures that don't appear to be a repeater at all).

If you have seen various boxes/antenna appearing in your neighborhood before the smart meter roll-outs--it may be those (I think some cities are installing repeaters for data links for their departments too--probably difficult to tell the difference).

-Bill

mike95490 · October 2011

Re: how does the electricity company know how much solar you have installed.

The smart meters only have a few hundred feet range, and they set up their own "mesh" network, and relay the data from the other block, to the next, till it all ends up at a master node/antenna. That means your house's meter could be running 80% of the time, or just 10% - depending where in the mesh you are.

niel · October 2011

Re: how does the electricity company know how much solar you have installed.

quite an undertaking and expense to put all of that in place. nothing like that here that i've seen. i'll bet they modeled the systems after the amateur packet system that used to be widespread in use. some of those protesting would really flip if they knew that 2.4ghz is the frequency range used by many microwave ovens.;):-):p

Cariboocoot · October 2011

Re: how does the electricity company know how much solar you have installed.

The "antis" don't seem to comprehend that those microwaves are all around, whether or not you have a smart meter, cell phone, or microwave oven. One of the locals wrote a letter to the paper saying he had informed BC Hydro that he would not allow a smart meter on his home due to the danger of the microwave radiation. Of course he has the other choice: no electric. :roll: They don't seem to comprehend the difference between radio frequency emissions and nuclear radiation either.

Getcher tinfoil hats here! Gen-u-ine tinfoil! Don't settle for cheap aluminium imitations! Each hat comes with our patented dual grounding system with solid copper pads - one for each foot.

solar_dave · October 2011

Re: how does the electricity company know how much solar you have installed.

I got one of these down the street. Looks real similar, always wondered what it was.

RCinFLA · October 2011

Re: how does the electricity company know how much solar you have installed.

Mine was installed on July 11th. Last week I logged onto FPL site and can see my useage by hour.

You can't download the data which is a bummer. Maybe in the future, hopefully.

Not a good development if your job was a meter reader.

solarvic · October 2011

Re: how does the electricity company know how much solar you have installed.

Power co installed smart meter here when my solar system was commisioned. Other people around here have smartmeters but we still have meter readers that read the meter. They also added a smart meter charge to customers bills and an alternitive energy charge to everyones bill. :Dsolarvic:D

niel · October 2011

Re: how does the electricity company know how much solar you have installed.

"They also added a smart meter charge to customers bills and an alternitive energy charge to everyones bill."

now that gets me upset as that is unfair and unjustified. those meters cost no more than someone reading meters and they make others pay for reimbursing your electric contribution to the grid that they've already paid for the use of that electric in their standard usage meaning the regular customers are paying twice for the reading of the meter and their electric.

Cariboocoot wrote: »

The "antis" don't seem to comprehend that those microwaves are all around, whether or not you have a smart meter, cell phone, or microwave oven. One of the locals wrote a letter to the paper saying he had informed BC Hydro that he would not allow a smart meter on his home due to the danger of the microwave radiation. Of course he has the other choice: no electric. :roll: They don't seem to comprehend the difference between radio frequency emissions and nuclear radiation either.

Getcher tinfoil hats here! Gen-u-ine tinfoil! Don't settle for cheap aluminium imitations! Each hat comes with our patented dual grounding system with solid copper pads - one for each foot.

sorry coot, but radio waves can be harmful too and there are guidelines for this type of radiation as well. granted the 2.4ghz transmitter will not fast cook you like a microwave oven because it does not have that kind of power, but a constant slow cooking with smaller power levels can do damage. 2.4ghz finds many devices now operating in a home with wifi, security, and even phones to name a few. the effect can be additive, but most should be fine with the exposure levels present. those constantly using cell phones would have a higher exposure level than all of these devices combined.

btw, that tin hat may reflect some of these radio emissions away from your head and is where the idea came in from in the first place that they thought aliens can't do them harm or read their minds if they donned a tin foil hat. there is usually a tad of fact based to most assumptions, but really, if an alien race was here what good is accessing our minds or controlling us as we aren't that valuable to any beings that advanced.:roll::p

solarvic · October 2011

Re: how does the electricity company know how much solar you have installed.

Another one I can add about stray waves, I don,t know what kind but cable co. got the blame and had to pay my neighbors for his cows. The power line runs preety close to the neighbors barn. His dairy cows milk production dropped dreastically. He tryed to blame it on the electric co. The cable co had run thier cable line recently just before the milk production dropped. They run thier cable on the electric co. poles. So my neighbor had to sell his cows. The electric co blamed the cable co. So the cable co had to move thier cable on other side of road and pay the neighbor for his new cows and lost production. :Dsolarvic:D

Cariboocoot · October 2011

Re: how does the electricity company know how much solar you have installed.

But that's the problem, isn't it Niel? A bit of truth to the matter gets distorted into an extreme danger that will have us all dropping like flies the minute these smart meters are installed. There's quite a difference between the low-level ambient exposure and putting yourself inside the oven and closing the door. Exaggerated nonsense of uneducated fear-mongerers. As I said, the microwaves are already pervasive and refusing to have a smart meter in your home will lessen your exposure by an insignificant amount.

Unless you spend your life living inside a Faraday cage, you're going to get "hit".

rollandelliott · October 2011

Re: how does the electricity company know how much solar you have installed.

this is the email I got from my electricity company. I had asked them if I upgraded my system from 5kw AC to something higher if I would get the same rate approximately. His reponse does not make any sense to me. Looks like the two choices have EXACTLY the same rate. Honestly this stuff is wayy too confusing for the average person!

1.     Looking at the numbers and your KWH The Time of Use Net Metering 
Rate (larger than a 5kw system) is designed to be neutral with the co-op rate 
with the low amount on KWH even with the higher basic facility charge.  Could 
work out not a big difference... Currently these are the two
2.     A 5kw or less system can be on the beta program(members stays on current 
existing residential rate)... net metering and anything they use over what is 
needed for the home rolls over per month to offset the next&#8217;s months KWH at the
 same cost.  After a year if excess KWH is owed member would receive dollar 
amount of KWH. 25 dollar basic facility cost for monitoring bidirectional meter and
 service cost.
*With the Time Of Use Rate you are paying less for each piece of energy (kWh) 
and that makes up for the fixed charges being collected up front (the $40 facilities 
charge for the extra related service involved with a very costly meter and remote 
monitoring by Central).  You do have a demand cost with this rate.

TIME OF USE RATE you are charged
1.  DEMAND CREDIT: 
 All kilowatts of Monthly Coincident Peak Demand &#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;.&#8230;.. $4.25 per kW

2.  ENERGY CHARGE                                        Summer Months          Winter Months
All kWh used during On-Peak Hours                             6.919¢/kWh       5.290¢/kWh
 All kWh used during Off-Peak Hours                             4.850¢/kWh     4.626¢/kWh
*Central shall purchase the demand and energy produced by the Customer&#8217;s 
Eligible Generation Source and delivered to the Member&#8217;s distribution system 
under the following credits:

1.  DEMAND CREDIT: 
 All kilowatts of Monthly Coincident Peak Demand &#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;.&#8230;.. $4.25 per kW  

2.  ENERGY CREDIT:                                        Summer Months          Winter Months
 All kWh purchased during On-Peak Hours                    6.919¢/kWh     5.290¢/kWh
All kWh purchased during Off-Peak Hours                    4.850¢/kWh      4.626¢/kWh
Please call with questions...

I only want to install more solar if it is economically beneficial. There's is not point installing more if once I go over 5kw I get suckered into some lower rate and loose money on the deal. Maybe I should just email him back and ask him if It makes economical sense to add more solar?

Solar Guppy · October 2011

Re: how does the electricity company know how much solar you have installed.

They are the same rates, the difference is the facilities
charge.

One is 25 dollars yearly, the other is 40 + 25 but it isn't clear if the 40 is a annual or monthly charge

solarvic · October 2011

Re: how does the electricity company know how much solar you have installed.

Looks like you already got your answer. Looks like you can make more power and pay more charges. Wouldn,t you just be turning your wheels for nothing? Im the one to talk!1 I am approved for a 4.7 kw system but havn,t made it yet. So I am installing about the same number of new panels that are rated 180 and 185 watt verses the 4 or 5 year old 158 watt panels I now have. Thinking that will keep me close to what I was approved for. Then I decided to make the 158 watt panel system into an offgrid system for backup and to use some of the power in my home and let my gti system feed the grid. :Dsolarvic:D

rollandelliott · October 2011

Re: how does the electricity company know how much solar you have installed.

Here is the electricity coop's response.
$40 a month seems really high? how it does it compare to what others are paying?

You have a 25 dollar facility monthly charge on the beta net metering option. The Time of use rate has a 40 dollar facility monthly charge. We have basic facility charges on all rates. All utilities have facility cost on rates to recover cost to provide equipment and maintain equipment.

Solar Guppy · October 2011

Re: how does the electricity company know how much solar you have installed.

Well when someone says "all" , then you know its not true

Lakeland Electric break the costs into two main parts, the base which is the infrastructure, overhead, depreciation ect. and then the fuel which is variable and changes every few months, this is for each kwh bought or sold.

We also have an 8 dollar month charge that would seem similar to your coop's 25/40 dollar charge. Its so high as you have a small base of users to spread the cost around on, is my guess.

Those rates by the way are the lowest I have ever seen for residential rates, 6.9 cents for on peak, that would have to be hydro to make money at those rates.

Its all moot, at those rates, solar will never pay off, regardless of the size and the connection charges. Why would you have even done the 5kw system?, the payback is close to infinity when coupled with the "monitoring/connection" charge

rollandelliott · October 2011

Re: how does the electricity company know how much solar you have installed.

You are right solarguppy, not that great of a payoff.

But those quoted rates are without taxes added in. the actual rate is around 11 cents per kw which from what I've read is pretty close to what most people in USA pay..... so it's not as bad as it looks.

Solar Guppy · October 2011

Re: how does the electricity company know how much solar you have installed.

We all have taxes, that's are not part of the published kwh rates, 2-5 cents is common on top of the kwh charge

Your rates are the lowest I have seen anywhere in the US, and I have seen alot of rates.

We have the third lowest of any city/town in the State of Florida ( Lakeland Electric ) and our rates are close to 12 cent kwr, that's before taxes

rollandelliott · October 2011

Re: how does the electricity company know how much solar you have installed.

Well I'll have to look at my bill again and see just how economical or uneconomical this whole solar project is becoming. Thanks for your honest evaluation!

jagec · October 2011

Re: how does the electricity company know how much solar you have installed.

Solar Guppy wrote: »

We all have taxes, that's are not part of the published kwh rates, 2-5 cents is common on top of the kwh charge

Your rates are the lowest I have seen anywhere in the US, and I have seen alot of rates.

We have the third lowest of any city/town in the State of Florida ( Lakeland Electric ) and our rates are close to 12 cent kwr, that's before taxes

Check out these City of Seattle rates:
ENERGY CHARGES:
First 10 kWh per day at 4.61¢ per kWh
All additional kWh per day at 9.56¢ per kWh
Base Service Charge: 11.55¢ per meter per day

Of course, if that's too dear for you, they have a low-income program:
ENERGY CHARGES:
First 10 kWh per day at 1.94¢ per kWh
All additional kWh per day at 3.55¢ per kWh
Base Service Charge: 5.78¢ per meter per day

But if you're a large company (max demand between 1 MW and 10 MW) they really soak you with peak charges:
ENERGY CHARGES:
Peak:
Energy used between six (6:00) a.m. and ten (10:00) p.m., Monday through Saturday, excluding major
holidays,* at 6.48¢ per kWh

Off-peak:
Energy used at all times other than the peak period at 4.38¢ per kWh

Yeah, I don't see PV catching on in the NW without some serious subsidies.

rollandelliott · October 2011

guidelines for determing if solar is economical

When I first got into this solar project. I just looked at my bill and divided the cost of the bill by the KWH I used.
For example $76.00/646kwh bill equals about $0.12/kwh

The electricity bill does not break down the bill into different amounts like taxes and meter fees although I've been told they are incorporated into that monthly fee.

Now I'm a bit confused as Solarguppy points out the fees are so high and the rate so low the return is not that good.

What is the best way to see if it is economically viable? My bill is not broken down at all, makes it all a little too complicated.

BB. · October 2011

Re: how does the electricity company know how much solar you have installed.

It is not straight forward... Some places do net metering based on kWH generated and used... I use 300 kWH and generate 400 kWH in a month, I get a credit of 100kWH * retail rate (included taxes, does not include meter fees of ~$6). Actually a bit more complex, but in the end I buy and sell kWH at retail.

Some places instead pay you the retail rate less taxes (is that your place)? Or even pay you the wholesale power rate (even lower).

Grid Tie solar is very much dependent on your state Public Utility Commission and even your local power company's rules/rate plans.

You pretty much have to become the expert for your location.

If you can find a few others in your area that have GT solar--perhaps they can help you too (sometimes, there are forums with local members).

-Bill

Cariboocoot · October 2011

Re: guidelines for determing if solar is economical

rollandelliott wrote: »

What is the best way to see if it is economically viable? My bill is not broken down at all, makes it all a little too complicated.

That shouldn't be legal.
I'm not saying it isn't, I'm saying it shouldn't be.

Look what happens with two theoretical bills, one low and one high:

$25 per month access fee
$0.10 per kW hour
480 kW hours per month
Total bill: $73
Apparent cost per kW hour: $0.15

$25 per month access fee
$0.10 per kW hour
960 kW hours per month
Total bill: $121
Apparent cost per kW hour: $0.12

So the lower power user would appear to be buying more expensive electricity, misleading him into believing the solar install would have a quicker or more viable payback. The higher power user thinks he's getting cheaper electricity and is led to believe a solar install would not be economical.

When in fact exactly the opposite is true. The higher the fees and the more power used the greater this confusion would become.

Perhaps a word in the ear of the relevant public service commission? I want to know what exactly I'm paying for when I fork over my money.

Solar Guppy · October 2011

Re: how does the electricity company know how much solar you have installed.

To make a the ROI math work you have to know your fixed vs variable costs on a monthly basis.

In simple terms, you can have the variable portion go to zero , yet the fixed is always present.

So for a Gridtie solar system ROI, look at only the variable kwh your billed, as that's what the Gridtie will offset.

As an opinion:

Your Co-op is adding large fixed costs and presenting a lower khw charge, to the average consumer or one that doesn't conserve, its neutral or a lower cost with larger usage.

To the person whom conserves, its a disincentive. Its a way for the Co-op to lock in a fixed monthly minimum payment from the consumer.

For the solar customer, forget it, and its 100% intentional. They don't want solar so the make the fixed costs sky high, making solar not worth the investment. It only effects the ones wanting solar and since its a co-op its completely legal.

co-op and muni's are exempt from net-metering laws in general ( also from most public service commission's ). For PR purposes they might offer customers to have Gridtie, but its simple to rig the rate structure, like in your case, to make it uneconomical.

ggunn · October 2011

Re: how does the electricity company know how much solar you have installed.

BB. wrote: »

If you can find a few others in your area that have GT solar--perhaps they can help you too (sometimes, there are forums with local members).

-Bill

And if there aren't any, that should tell you something, too.

how does the electricity company know how much solar you have installed.

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