New battery options????

Shane Jackson
Shane Jackson Solar Expert Posts: 49 ✭
in General Solar Power Topics #1
Found this and thought it was interesting.


http://www.technologyreview.com/energy/38689/?p1=A2

Hope this is the right place to post

Shane
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Comments

  • niel
    niel Solar Expert Posts: 10,300 ✭✭✭✭
    #2
    Re: New battery options????

    interesting. the cost is still too high so lead acid types are not going to be ousted any time soon. it would be great when the costs come down and then we would also see what kind of life is actually realized from them by that time.

    ps. when i was dating my wife to be she lived 13 blocks away from where that place is.
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  • Shane Jackson
    Shane Jackson Solar Expert Posts: 49 ✭
    #3
    Re: New battery options????
    niel wrote: »
    interesting. the cost is still too high so lead acid types are not going to be ousted any time soon. it would be great when the costs come down and then we would also see what kind of life is actually realized from them by that time.

    ps. when i was dating my wife to be she lived 13 blocks away from where that place is.

    Check out the specs on their site:

    http://www.aquionenergy.com/technology

    If they live up to what they claim.......

    Shane
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  • ggunn
    ggunn Solar Expert Posts: 1,973 ✭✭✭
    #4
    Re: New battery options????
    Shane Jackson wrote: »
    Check out the specs on their site:

    http://www.aquionenergy.com/technology

    If they live up to what they claim.......

    Shane

    They claim 100% DOD doesn't hurt them. That cuts the needed capacity (read:cost) in half right there.
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  • mike95490
    mike95490 Solar Expert Posts: 9,583 ✭✭✭✭✭
    #5
    Re: New battery options????

    But look at the lifetime - 2 years.
    Powerfab top of pole PV mount | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
    || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
    || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

    solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
    gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister ,

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  • Solar Guppy
    Solar Guppy Solar Expert Posts: 1,989 ✭✭✭
    #6
    Re: New battery options????

    "while ongoing calendar life testing shows stable performance for over a year of continuous deep cycle use"

    Not exactly a good fit for applications where batteries are needed, its sound more like a 1 year capacitor than a battery ...

    For the less experienced, this is just a Press release aimed at getting funding IMHO, its not something ready for the public or that one can purchase.

    A few years ago we had http://www.fireflyenergy.com/ which had even a better technology that actually worked ... didn't matter. Cost is everything and flooded is king for this reason
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  • ggunn
    ggunn Solar Expert Posts: 1,973 ✭✭✭
    #7
    Re: New battery options????
    Solar Guppy wrote: »
    "while ongoing calendar life testing shows stable performance for over a year of continuous deep cycle use"

    Not exactly a good fit for applications where batteries are needed, its sound more like a 1 year capacitor than a battery ...

    For the less experienced, this is just a Press release aimed at getting funding IMHO, its not something ready for the public or that one can purchase.

    A few years ago we had http://www.fireflyenergy.com/ which had even a better technology that actually worked ... didn't matter. Cost is everything and flooded is king for this reason
    In a related story...

    A formative experience for me relating to batteries' energy density was when I was new to the business and on a site when a Hawker 48V 1000A-h battery was delivered. It took a forklift to get it in place; I guess it weighed about what a small car weighs and it was roughly a cube 3-4' on a side. It looked huge to me.

    1000 A-h at 48VDC, that's 48,000 W-h. 48 kWh. That's about $5 worth of electricity, and half of it is unusable, even if storage efficiency were 100%, which it isn't. Make it about two bucks' worth. Dang. No wonder storage is such a critical issue.
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  • monoloco
    monoloco Solar Expert Posts: 103 ✭✭
    #8
    Re: New battery options????
    Solar Guppy wrote: »
    "while ongoing calendar life testing shows stable performance for over a year of continuous deep cycle use"

    Not exactly a good fit for applications where batteries are needed, its sound more like a 1 year capacitor than a battery ...

    For the less experienced, this is just a Press release aimed at getting funding IMHO, its not something ready for the public or that one can purchase.

    A few years ago we had http://www.fireflyenergy.com/ which had even a better technology that actually worked ... didn't matter. Cost is everything and flooded is king for this reason
    If you look at their literature, it sounds like all of their batteries are currently going for testing, it seems to me like they are responsibly not making any claims on the life of their product beyond what they have been able to demonstrate, they did say that they are shooting for a 20 year lifespan at a similar cost per ah as a lead acid car battery.
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  • Photowhit
    Photowhit Solar Expert Posts: 6,006 ✭✭✭✭✭
    #9
    Re: New battery options????

    As Niel said, the price is still too high;

    So I live off grid and just purchased a 800 Ah 24Volt (nominal) Lead acid, forklift/traction battery for $2500 delivered, $2500 / 19 (800x24 = 19,200) =$132 per kWh

    Unless they will last longer than the 2 years at 85% I don't yet see the value, other than less toxic, but we live and learn.
    Home system 4000 watt (Evergreen) array standing, with 2 Midnite Classic Lites,  Midnite E-panel, Magnum MS4024, Prosine 1800(now backup) and Exeltech 1100(former backup...lol), 660 ah 24v Forklift battery(now 10 years old). Off grid for 20 years (if I include 8 months on a bicycle).
    - Assorted other systems, pieces and to many panels in the closet to not do more projects.
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  • Solar Guppy
    Solar Guppy Solar Expert Posts: 1,989 ✭✭✭
    #10
    Re: New battery options????
    monoloco wrote: »
    it seems to me like they are responsibly not making any claims on the life of their product beyond what they have been able to demonstrate, they did say that they are shooting for a 20 year lifespan at a similar cost per ah as a lead acid car battery.

    Company's make claims all the time about longevity, the post child of this is Enphase with 25+ year expected service life, yet they have been only shipping product of a little over two years.

    Its a grown up science project looking for funding ... nothing more at this point
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  • bmet
    bmet Solar Expert Posts: 630 ✭✭
    #11
    Re: New battery options????
    ggunn wrote: »
    They claim 100% DOD doesn't hurt them. That cuts the needed capacity (read:cost) in half right there.

    I've read similar specs from conventional SLA batteries, CSB general purpose 12 Volt product which list 100% DOD of 200-250 cycles.

    See the chart for their GP (general purpose battery) line.
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  • RCinFLA
    RCinFLA Solar Expert Posts: 1,485 ✭✭✭✭
    #12
    Re: New battery options????

    Last I heard of this technology is the capacity degrades exponentially with each cycle. After about 30-40 cycles they deliver about 50% of original capacity. For the next couple thousand cycles they lose another 10-20% capacity.

    Basically you are back to the lead-acid 50% DOD, just battery capacity imposed.

    Their site data doesn't show this so maybe they have something different. The 2 year lifespan seems to indicate a self degradation, independent of cycling.

    They are fishing for venture capital.
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  • Vic
    Vic Solar Expert Posts: 3,208 ✭✭✭✭
    #13
    Re: New battery options????

    Nice to be optimistic about emerging new technology.

    However, there will ALWAYS be something on the horizon to wait for, always. So if someone needs a solution, it is a great idea to buy something that will do the job adequately NOW, while waiting for the new technologies to become current. Early adopters usually spend a lot, and often are disappointed, but we all need them to help the manufacturers work out bugs, or go belly-up.

    FLAs have been around for 150 years or so, and are still used, because, as bad as they are, they still seem to be an acceptable solution for off-grid energy storage.

    JMHO, OH, I think that I just now see something new over the horizon ... Vic
    Off Grid - Two systems -- 4 SW+ 5548 Inverters, Surrette 4KS25 1280 AH X2@48V, 11.1 KW STC PV, 4X MidNite Classic 150 w/ WBjrs, Beta KID on S-530s, MX-60s, MN Bkrs/Boxes.  25 KVA Polyphase Kubota diesel,  Honda Eu6500isa,  Eu3000is-es, Eu2000,  Eu1000 gensets.  Thanks Wind-Sun for this great Forum.
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