San Diego 9/2011

mike95490
mike95490 Solar Expert Posts: 9,583 ✭✭✭✭✭
Well, the forum is up still, so the "San Diego September Blackout" didn't knock out the entire SW. I wonder what took out the 2 main feeds ?
Powerfab top of pole PV mount | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
|| Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
|| VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister ,

Comments

  • waynefromnscanada
    waynefromnscanada Solar Expert Posts: 3,009 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: San Diego 9/2011

    Just on the Canadian news: Massive power outage leaves more than 2 million people without power in California, Arizona and Mexico! They may not get power back till tomorrow. No cause stated so far.
    Right or wrong, I believe it's only a matter of time till those of us who can continue life as usual when the grid goes down for extended periods, will be very thankful for the decisions we've made. Very interesting item in recent Scientific American, discussing how easy it would be to bring down the grid, taking weeks or even months to repair. As long as I have the physical and mental health to look after my system, loosing the grid is off my worry list, and I won't starve either.
    I truly believe that the time is coming when we'll have to look after ourselves. In the meantime we've put our lives in the hands of big corporations, expecting them to look after us. Am I right, or am I a nut, time will tell all.
  • Seven
    Seven Solar Expert Posts: 292 ✭✭
    Re: San Diego 9/2011
    Right or wrong, I believe it's only a matter of time till those of us who can continue life as usual when the grid goes down for extended periods, will be very thankful for the decisions we've made. Very interesting item in recent Scientific American, discussing how easy it would be to bring down the grid, taking weeks or even months to repair. As long as I have the physical and mental health to look after my system, loosing the grid is off my worry list, and I won't starve either.
    I truly believe that the time is coming when we'll have to look after ourselves. In the meantime we've put our lives in the hands of big corporations, expecting them to look after us. Am I right, or am I a nut, time will tell all.

    I am on the same page as you my friend.
  • mike95490
    mike95490 Solar Expert Posts: 9,583 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: San Diego 9/2011

    Maybe the expense of the NiFe batteries is not so off base....
    Powerfab top of pole PV mount | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
    || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
    || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

    solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
    gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister ,

  • niel
    niel Solar Expert Posts: 10,300 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: San Diego 9/2011
    Just on the Canadian news: Massive power outage leaves more than 2 million people without power in California, Arizona and Mexico! They may not get power back till tomorrow. No cause stated so far.
    Right or wrong, I believe it's only a matter of time till those of us who can continue life as usual when the grid goes down for extended periods, will be very thankful for the decisions we've made. Very interesting item in recent Scientific American, discussing how easy it would be to bring down the grid, taking weeks or even months to repair. As long as I have the physical and mental health to look after my system, loosing the grid is off my worry list, and I won't starve either.
    I truly believe that the time is coming when we'll have to look after ourselves. In the meantime we've put our lives in the hands of big corporations, expecting them to look after us. Am I right, or am I a nut, time will tell all.

    for the short haul, those with off grid systems will be fine, but it would impact you in other ways in time as gas stations pump no gasoline and retailers make no sales and that is including food stores. unless and until they do similar with some means of backup power then large long term outages will still impact you in spite of the fact your frig still runs and you can still watch tv.
  • solar_dave
    solar_dave Solar Expert Posts: 2,397 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: San Diego 9/2011

    The latest is that a worker in Yuma AZ was working in a sub station cause the line to So Cal to trip. This time of year large amounts of power are sent from the Palo Verde nuclear plant in AZ to the San Diego area. This trip cause two nuc plants in So Cal to go off line and the feeder from the north of San Diego to trip as well.
  • waynefromnscanada
    waynefromnscanada Solar Expert Posts: 3,009 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: San Diego 9/2011

    I've actually taken it a bit further, having my own garden, root cellar etc, with a years supply of food. So survival wise, as long as I didn't get "raided", I could be OK for probably a year. Wouldn't necessarily be fun being grounded with no internet or other common forms of communication, but it would be possible to survive for a while. The next year however would be a challenge, as most of the common garden seeds are hybrid, meaning that you must buy new each year through the commercial market, as seeds saved from hybrid items revert back to some more or less useless state. Potatoes, a couple of kinds of peas, and a couple of kinds of squash are about all I can reproduce on my own by saving their seeds year to year, the rest I must buy. We as a society have passed our survival abilities over to the big guys. But I digress and stray from renewable energy topics.
  • niel
    niel Solar Expert Posts: 10,300 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: San Diego 9/2011

    no problem with the straying a bit as survival is often a reason many do use pvs even though most of us don't plan for a year. we try to stave off outages more of the short term and many won't even have that that utilize gt systems to offset their bills more efficiently. you do get my point as even i would have a big problem with a long term outage, but i would be a tad better off than my neighbors. and i must say that you're right that one can be targeted because you have power. i did try to explain to my other half that in a bad outage that would be bad enough to cause desperation in others that we would have to shield the fact we have power from them. that means no light able to escape the windows and would be similar to a wartime blackout. due to conservation of power those lights would be on minimally anyway. btw, she's the type that has to have lights on everywhere in the house so i'll have an argument during an outage. boy am i glad for cfls though.:D in telling her all of this she gave me the look like i'm nuts.:roll: ok, i concede that i am a little nuts, but in a good way.;):p
  • techntrek
    techntrek Solar Expert Posts: 1,372 ✭✭✭
    Re: San Diego 9/2011
    Right or wrong, I believe it's only a matter of time till those of us who can continue life as usual when the grid goes down for extended periods, will be very thankful for the decisions we've made. ....

    ....Very interesting item in recent Scientific American, discussing how easy it would be to bring down the grid, taking weeks or even months to repair....

    ... Potatoes ....

    Agree. However, once the grid starts going down with regularity you'll need to sleep next to your PV array with a shotgun to keep it from walking away.

    Many moons ago I figured out two weak areas of the distribution system. Heck, one of them I figured out when I was still a kid so it doesn't take a rocket scientist. I've worried about that ever since and it probably has been a partial driver of my need to be able to go off-grid. A good analogy is ignoring the big padlock on the front door and just picking up a rock and throwing it through the back window. And yes, it would take months/years to recover much like a massive solar storm. Economic and social recovery would take a generation because society is so completely unprepared for such an event. Think about 3/4 of society living in cities that would be without water in a day, all running to the suburbs looking for lakes and streams. Then for food. :cry:

    I've done some research on creating a long-term food supply (beyond buying a big bucket of freeze-dried veggies which will run out) and potatoes are the only good answer I've found. Fairly balanced in various nutrients, easy to over-winter both to eat and for spring planting, easy to start, etc. It kept the English and Irish alive for centuries along with 1000 other cultures as the primary staple so that says a lot. Rice comes close for nutrition, and again it has kept many billions of people alive over the years, but misses the mark in ease-of-growth at least for most of North America.
    4.5 kw APC UPS powered by a Prius, 12 kw Generac, Honda EU3000is
  • techntrek
    techntrek Solar Expert Posts: 1,372 ✭✭✭
    Re: San Diego 9/2011
    niel wrote: »
    ...you're right that one can be targeted because you have power....

    ...i did try to explain to my other half that in a bad outage that would be bad enough to cause desperation in others that we would have to shield the fact we have power from them. that means no light able to escape the windows and would be similar to a wartime blackout.

    You posted while I was writing, you can see I had the same point. I guess the only good solution is a hidden cabin high in the mountains. Even then if society collapses someone will eventually find you there.

    I've thought this exact thing, so I don't think you are nuts. Light escaping from the windows isn't going to be as big of a beacon as the PV array on the roof or on the ground mount...
    4.5 kw APC UPS powered by a Prius, 12 kw Generac, Honda EU3000is
  • solar_dave
    solar_dave Solar Expert Posts: 2,397 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: San Diego 9/2011
    techntrek wrote: »
    Agree. However, once the grid starts going down with regularity you'll need to sleep next to your PV array with a shotgun to keep it from walking away.

    Many moons ago I figured out two weak areas of the distribution system. Heck, one of them I figured out when I was still a kid so it doesn't take a rocket scientist. I've worried about that ever since and it probably has been a partial driver of my need to be able to go off-grid. A good analogy is ignoring the big padlock on the front door and just picking up a rock and throwing it through the back window. And yes, it would take months/years to recover much like a massive solar storm. Economic and social recovery would take a generation because society is so completely unprepared for such an event. Think about 3/4 of society living in cities that would be without water in a day, all running to the suburbs looking for lakes and streams. Then for food. :cry:

    I've done some research on creating a long-term food supply (beyond buying a big bucket of freeze-dried veggies which will run out) and potatoes are the only good answer I've found. Fairly balanced in various nutrients, easy to over-winter both to eat and for spring planting, easy to start, etc. It kept the English and Irish alive for centuries along with 1000 other cultures as the primary staple so that says a lot. Rice comes close for nutrition, and again it has kept many billions of people alive over the years, but misses the mark in ease-of-growth at least for most of North America.

    Add onions, leeks, and Shallots for easy of starting/growing and additional nutrients not found in the starchy brethren. Don't forget about Garlic as well.
  • waynefromnscanada
    waynefromnscanada Solar Expert Posts: 3,009 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: San Diego 9/2011
    niel wrote: »
    no problem with the straying a bit as survival is often a reason many do use pvs even though most of us don't plan for a year. we try to stave off outages more of the short term and many won't even have that that utilize gt systems to offset their bills more efficiently. you do get my point as even i would have a big problem with a long term outage, but i would be a tad better off than my neighbors. and i must say that you're right that one can be targeted because you have power. i did try to explain to my other half that in a bad outage that would be bad enough to cause desperation in others that we would have to shield the fact we have power from them. that means no light able to escape the windows and would be similar to a wartime blackout. due to conservation of power those lights would be on minimally anyway. btw, she's the type that has to have lights on everywhere in the house so i'll have an argument during an outage. boy am i glad for cfls though.:D in telling her all of this she gave me the look like i'm nuts.:roll: ok, i concede that i am a little nuts, but in a good way.;):p

    That's exactly the way I think about it. Just last night was thinking couldn't display that I have electricity. Have been keeping it very quiet around here anyway, the fewer who know the better, but what surprises me is that many people in the area already know. Guess one person finds out, then the talk begins, especially with it being a novelty in these parts.
  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    Re: San Diego 9/2011
    ... one person finds out, then the talk begins, especially with it being a novelty in these parts.

    ... and the next thing you know everyone is installing solar electric power systems with battery backup and the fragility of the national grid becomes irrelevant.

    Sounds like a plan to me. ;)
  • sub3marathonman
    sub3marathonman Solar Expert Posts: 300 ✭✭✭
    Re: San Diego 9/2011
    mike90045 wrote: »
    Maybe the expense of the NiFe batteries is not so off base....

    Oh, you had to go and mention the Ni-Fe batteries.

    I've always been interested in them, but they were always unobtainable. They used to be made in the U.S. until Exide Battery Company bought out the Edison Storage Company and a few years later stopped producing them. According to this website: http://www.nickel-iron-battery.com/ , "No one really knows why the Exide Battery Company killed the technology in North America by 1975."

    You can still possibly get them from http://www.beutilityfree.com/Electric/Ni-Fe , but the owner, John D'Angelo is controversial in my opinion. You can read about the most serious incident here: http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:8hxKZXHTpV4J:www.cpsc.gov/cpscpub/pubs/reports/1998rpt3.pdf+97-CR-312+d%27angelo&hl=en&gl=us&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESgpmdoQ7kgPiM5otNezlg1BRyXBcvqWW0qtAkJsEMTTMqTGOE8AyYzl7AMvuII6IqOtywGfw4XCeJJuLjca3OhyIjs54DleQ_0GQJteVs_me32nB3hvgmmBMpZ2XioFaPOh1z-Z&sig=AHIEtbQS3N-sAT_U3e0Ohw4kQKbrnxx_eQ , and while it seems Mr. D'Angelo isn't completely responsible, he did set in motion the chain of events that led to a 15-year-old boy dying from drinking a solution of KOH that he had delivered in a reused water container, or possibly milk container, as he pled guilty to 15 counts of federal safety violations. There is another website here: http://www.why-did-john-dangelo-go-to-prison.info/ . And I'm just posting this here to inform people, they will have to make their own decision. I've never met him, and have had no dealings with him.

    I guess in the end though, the shortcomings of the Ni-Fe battery prevented it from being widely used.
  • techntrek
    techntrek Solar Expert Posts: 1,372 ✭✭✭
    Re: San Diego 9/2011
    solar_dave wrote: »
    Add onions, leeks, and Shallots for easy of starting/growing and additional nutrients not found in the starchy brethren. Don't forget about Garlic as well.

    I'll look into it, thanks.
    4.5 kw APC UPS powered by a Prius, 12 kw Generac, Honda EU3000is
  • waynefromnscanada
    waynefromnscanada Solar Expert Posts: 3,009 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: San Diego 9/2011
    ... and the next thing you know everyone is installing solar electric power systems with battery backup and the fragility of the national grid becomes irrelevant.

    Sounds like a plan to me. ;)

    Would be awesome if it would work that way. Unfortunately, in these parts at least, people are more interested in being nosy, than in doing something for themselves.:p
  • PhilS
    PhilS Solar Expert Posts: 370 ✭✭✭
    Re: San Diego 9/2011

    I just view the entire power outage this way:

    One guy did it ... accidently.

    Would this indicate how vulnerable most people's power grid is, should some individual or group specifically target it?

    My concern relates more to a solar storm. Would my charge controllers and inverters be toast? Of course I realize IF that was the case, would my satellite receiver and TV still work? I assume they might, IF they weren't on at the time, whereas the controllers and inverters are always on. Then the question becomes "will there be anything to watch?".

    Our emergency rations, I figure, will last until someone kills us and takes the food.

    Phil
  • waynefromnscanada
    waynefromnscanada Solar Expert Posts: 3,009 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: San Diego 9/2011
    PhilS wrote: »
    I just view the entire power outage this way:

    One guy did it ... accidently.

    Would this indicate how vulnerable most people's power grid is, should some individual or group specifically target it?

    My concern relates more to a solar storm. Would my charge controllers and inverters be toast? Of course I realize IF that was the case, would my satellite receiver and TV still work? I assume they might, IF they weren't on at the time, whereas the controllers and inverters are always on. Then the question becomes "will there be anything to watch?".

    Our emergency rations, I figure, will last until someone kills us and takes the food.

    Phil

    Solar storms are far more likely to affect long grid transmission lines, and have very little influence on far smaller and shorter wire runs involved with private solar et. Lightening, now there's a whole different worry :D
    Solar storms are also far more likely to take out a TV satellite and other satellites located in space, then anything here on the ground.
  • niel
    niel Solar Expert Posts: 10,300 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: San Diego 9/2011

    in pertaining to the grid the question was if we are that vulnerable? i would love to say no we aren't vulnerable, but that's being unrealistic as there are too many natural, accidental, and intentional ways it can happen. add to that the neglect of the grid from the utilities and it's a recipe for disaster bound to repeat itself over and over with varying degrees of severity and duration.

    outages were my primary reason for getting into solar. i do admit i had a secondary reason too as i found the whole thing with solar panels, batteries, and inverters quite intriguing and i was drawn to it. some of you can probably relate.

    as to others that know what you have, i doubt they would run right out to get their own. the 1st thing that stops most of the interested ones is the costs, be they can afford it or not, and some may eventually pursue it with many of them saving until it does happen. too many people would view what you have as theirs anyway during a desperate time as they think they have a license to steal what you have rather than do it for themselves before hand. human nature during desperate times is funny that some try to invent or help, some just lay back and blow things to the wind, and the rest think the world owes them and they will do underhanded things in that belief. what pans out to be is strange at times for take new york city for example, on 1 hand you have what transpired on 9/11 and it brought out many heros. i'm sure the other bad category of people were there too, but very few i hope. now further back when there was a problem with the grid and caused a major blackout in the northeast that same city had rioting and looting. as with the 1st example i'm sure the good category of people were present, but weren't as prominent. if by example a power outage brings out the bad then i feel uneasy letting them know i have lights/electricity. the biggest category in all cases are those that do nothing, but lay back and blow things to the wind. i guess this is a sort of summary of human nature and it can be said as, the good, the bad, and the lazy. do note some categories can overlap to some extent.