Xantrex XW6048 - fault F49 - DC over voltage

d4tom1941

Re: Xantrex XW6048 - fault F49 - DC over voltage

And ... what is the conclusion of this thread ?

I'm also considering XW system, so am a bit inerested in the final outcome

was the battery bank increased, as had been suggested several times ?

also, the statement of a water pumping ? station nearby,
in the 8:00 - 8:30 AM time the problem occurs !?

everybody us up and getting themselves fluffed for the workaday.
bathrooms are fully engaged, water draw is heavy,
big (and little) HP electric pumps activate
power factors express themselves and phase shifts occur

hmm ?

pcguy2u

Re: Xantrex XW6048 - fault F49 - DC over voltage

d4tom1941 wrote: »

And ... what is the conclusion of this thread ?

I'm also considering XW system, so am a bit inerested in the final outcome

was the battery bank increased, as had been suggested several times ?

also, the statement of a water pumping ? station nearby,
in the 8:00 - 8:30 AM time the problem occurs !?

everybody us up and getting themselves fluffed for the workaday.
bathrooms are fully engaged, water draw is heavy,
big (and little) HP electric pumps activate
power factors express themselves and phase shifts occur

hmm ?

The original F49 issue seems to have been corrected with the last firmware update - have not seen this for some time now.

The issue of the F25 and F29 still occurs a couple of times a week right after 8:00AM and is more or less a psychological issue (meaning it bothers me and shouldn’t be happening) – when it does happen, it just picks up selling 5 minutes later. I do recall that on one occasion last month it did not revert to sell automatically, but???? Got F29 earlier this morning, and it was back to selling automatically.

PG&E kissed me off on this, so more or less it’s pretty much a done deal – the batteries have never been upgraded or increased as has been suggested several times and everything seems ok at the moment.

Hadyn

Re: Xantrex XW6048 - fault F49 - DC over voltage

Hi Guys, I am experiencing the same F49 fault with my Xw6048. The difference being i am not grid tied and i have 24 2v 960ah batteries. My solar array is 16 Suntech 200w on a Lorentz tracker split between 2 XW MPPT 60 charge controllers. The first time to have a fault was yesterday and a simple on/off at the inverter was sufficient to get it back online. At the time of the fault I had a 1800w ac load with a clear sunny day. Being that i am off grid, i obviously don't have the problem of fluctuating Hz or spikes. The system has been working fine for the past two years. Does anyone have a solution.

BB.

Re: Xantrex XW6048 - fault F49 - DC over voltage

Use an accurate volt meter and measure the battery bus voltage (charging/discharging/rest).

Take a hydrometer and log the temperature corrected specific gravity for each cell--If you have AGM batteries, you cannot do this (sealed/agm/gelled cells are not accessible).

Use your volt meter, measure the voltage across each cell (or battery) and log. Ideal, again under charge/under load and after resting for 3+ hours.

Looking for anything that "does not look right" and looking for differences. You should have multiple batteries (and probably parallel batteries) in your system--And they all should behave the same. If they don't, there is usually a problem.

Check the voltage (heavy charging/discharging) at both the battery bus and at the Inverter DC inputs (looking for bad connections, too small of diameter cable, too long of cable, etc.).

Especially if you have two or more parallel battery strings--I suggest getting a DC Current Clamp DMM (like this Sears unit--cheap and "good enough" for our needs). Again, under heavy charging/discharging--Looking for "balanced current flow" between strings. You can double check your battery wiring against the Smartgauge website.

That is where I would start. And welcome to the forum Hadyn.

-Bill

mike95490

Re: Xantrex XW6048 - fault F49 - DC over voltage

Hi Guys, I am experiencing the same F49 fault with my Xw6048. The difference being i am not grid tied and i have 24 2v 960ah batteries. My solar array is 16 Suntech 200w on a Lorentz tracker split between 2 XW MPPT 60 charge controllers. The first time to have a fault was yesterday and a simple on/off at the inverter was sufficient to get it back online. At the time of the fault I had a 1800w ac load with a clear sunny day. Being that i am off grid, i obviously don't have the problem of fluctuating Hz or spikes. The system has been working fine for the past two years. Does anyone have a solution.

I'd look at the charge controller. That's where your energy feed comes from. If the batteries are getting overcharged, then their voltage zooms up, and the controller is SUPPOSED to throttle back. That's the only time I ever DC overvoltage (is F49 AC or DC ? )

vtmaps

Re: Xantrex XW6048 - fault F49 - DC over voltage

Hadyn wrote: »

The first time to have a fault was yesterday and a simple on/off at the inverter was sufficient to get it back online. At the time of the fault I had a 1800w ac load with a clear sunny day.

What about the other faults... same conditions? Do these faults occur during absorb, at the end of absorb, or during float? Do they occur in any specific relation to your AC loads?

Do you have temp compensation, are your batteries cold? (cold batteries are charged with higher voltages)

Sorry, more questions than answers.... we need more details of your system.

I think that BB.'s questions about voltages and Specific Gravity are because the problem could be a bad connection or bad battery, and I share the same concern. A charge controller needs a battery to serve as a 'buffer' against overshooting a target voltage... if there is a problem with the battery, it may show up as over voltage.

--vtMaps

Hadyn

Re: Xantrex XW6048 - fault F49 - DC over voltage

Thanks for all your quick replies, Today full sun, no loads and F49 is blinking and the inverter off, Turned on inverter and Water heater (1500w) and an hour later the CC's are floating and no problems for the rest of the day. I will check the connections and SG. Maybe its time to Equalize since it has been a while. Will update tomorrow.

Dave Angelini

Re: Xantrex XW6048 - fault F49 - DC over voltage

Hadyn wrote: »

Thanks for all your quick replies, Today full sun, no loads and F49 is blinking and the inverter off, Turned on inverter and Water heater (1500w) and an hour later the CC's are floating and no problems for the rest of the day. I will check the connections and SG. Maybe its time to Equalize since it has been a while. Will update tomorrow.

It might be helpful for some folks on how to make error 49 occur. The XW inverter in an offgrid application has charge set points. The charge controllers have charge set points.

When performing an EQ one programs an EQ, the CC or CC's will start a charge cycle again even if you have completed charge. In this case only one CC will be enabled after charging to do the EQ. A work around if you want to avoid the charge cycle again or if you need the power of both CC's is to just program float up to the EQ voltage that you need. When you do this, you get error 49 in the system. One just ignores this and at the end of the EQ time the system float voltage is reprogrammed for the correct float voltage.

I think that some of the folks with this problem are just too close to set-points, their battery banks are ridiculously small for an inverter of this size, or are having grid-tie set-up issues.

pcguy2u

Re: Xantrex XW6048 - fault F49 - DC over voltage

Hadyn wrote: »

Thanks for all your quick replies, Today full sun, no loads and F49 is blinking and the inverter off, Turned on inverter and Water heater (1500w) and an hour later the CC's are floating and no problems for the rest of the day. I will check the connections and SG. Maybe its time to Equalize since it has been a while. Will update tomorrow.

Lots to report here. First I have to assume that your system is not using firmware version 1.07.01 Build Number 3 or later. If you are then your system should recover from a F49 and restart after 5 minutes. This takes a lot of the oversight requirements out of the picture. Then though, you will need to monitor the results occasionally to know if you have been experiencing the F49 on an ongoing basis.

This can be done by going to the inverter screen on the SCP (assuming you have an 065-1000 inverter) > view device info > view Fault, Warning or Events. On my system the Warning screen shows that my last F49 was on Feb 29, but it doesn't show a year. To the best of my recollection, I have not seen the F49 since I updated the Firmware a couple of years ago.

My best guess is that the F49 and the lack of an automatic restart were programming bugs (BTW, it was a long and arduous battle with then Xantrex to get them to admit to the programming bugs and to then issue a fix). At no time did I ever change the hardware or batteries or cables or anything since the original installation.

I'm also guessing that while the above may help your situation, it does appear that BB is on the right track re the batteries. To add to what BB suggested would be to check your cables and battery posts independently - by that I mean that when using your volt meter and when the system is under load and while testing the voltage level on each battery in a given string, it is important to first check the battery across the lead posts thereby eliminating any bad connection as part of the problem. Then check the same battery by placing the probes on the cable part of the connection - the reading should be the same and any variation should be standard across all connections. An abnormal difference between the two readings will indicate a bad/eroded connection

Good luck,
Nick

t00ls

Re: Xantrex XW6048 - fault F49 - DC over voltage

I read here that the OP had the charge controllers in float mode while grid tied selling, ...........this is the wrong setting, should be no float for selling

if all the cc's and inverter are networked together, they should not interfere with each other.....I am thinking there is a ground issue somewhere

as bb said, the battery bank is way to small for the array, another thing you could try is limiting the amperage going to the batteries with the settings on the cc

before I could give real advice on this I would have to see all the connections and settings

aj164

Re: Xantrex XW6048 - fault F49 - DC over voltage

t00ls wrote: »

I read here that the OP had the charge controllers in float mode while grid tied selling, ...........this is the wrong setting, should be no float for selling

Is that right? I've set all of our systems to 2-stage charging on the inverter and 3-stage charging on the charge controllers. I thought the idea was to charge the batteries first and then sell. Float indicates the batteries are charged. Does sell work if you set the CC to 2-stage?
-AJB

t00ls

aj164 said:

Re: Xantrex XW6048 - fault F49 - DC over voltage

t00ls wrote: »

I read here that the OP had the charge controllers in float mode while grid tied selling, ...........this is the wrong setting, should be no float for selling

Is that right? I've set all of our systems to 2-stage charging on the inverter and 3-stage charging on the charge controllers. I thought the idea was to charge the batteries first and then sell. Float indicates the batteries are charged. Does sell work if you set the CC to 2-stage?
-AJB

I know it has been a while.......apparently the newest firmware settings are different

1) Enable Grid support in XW basic setup menu

2) Set Grid Support Voltage to 64V (32V for XW4024) and enable SELL in XW Advanced - Grid Support menu
(only if firmware on the XW inverter/charger is 1.07)

3) Verify XW CHARGE CYCLE is '2Stg/NoFloat' in XW Advanced - Charger Settings - Charge Cycle (factory default setting)
4) On MPPT set CHARGE CYCLE to '3 stage' in MPPT Advanced - Charger Settings - Charge Cycle 
5) It is also recommended that the system has a minimum battery capacity of 200Ah. An additional 100Ah for every 1kW of solar power is preferable

pcguy2u

OP here.  My system has been functioning normally since Xantrex provided me with firmware version 1.07.01 Build Number 3.  After many conversations with them suggesting that the issue was the result of a global variable that was not being reset in conjunction with fault F49, they changed that and all is good now and has been for years.

mike95490

pcguy2u said:

OP here.  My system has been functioning normally since Xantrex provided me with firmware version 1.07.01 Build Number 3.  After many conversations with them suggesting that the issue was the result of a global variable that was not being reset in conjunction with fault F49, they changed that and all is good now and has been for years.

Thanks for the update and for hanging in there.  What did you use to upload the firmware ? implanter, combox?

Wonder where Solar Guppy went, his site was still online last i looked, but pretty static, nothing new for years

Dave Angelini

One of the Schneider engineers I know said they could not find him either. He was in early on the beta for the XW grid-tie portion.

pcguy2u

After being the one that found the bug for them and who told them how to change the code, Xantrex wanted to charge me for the update; huh??

Went around with them on that one and they finally sent me the dongle for the inverter bus plugged in an Ethernet cable to it and the other end into a laptop and was good to go.

Not a real pleasant experience, but I know a lot about how difficult it is to find program bugs.  Just never had anyone tell me what the fix was.  LOL

Nick

Dave Angelini

That was 5+ years ago the XW grid-tie firmware fix right. When you say they tried to charge you, you mean for the Dongle right?
Mr. Guppy here said he did not have any problems with the grid-tie XW BTW. It is not easy to set-up for sure and needs large batteries.
The offgrid XW inverter has never had anything other than widening of the AC2 input parrameters. I have one that has the original firmware because I do not have a generator.

pcguy2u

Yes, very likely the dongle, but at that moment it was the only way to obtain the update so I didn't differentiate.  It's not as though you could plug any Ethernet cable into the bus and expect to communicate with it.

Assume that your reference to Mr. Guppy means that the F49 fault on my system must still be going on in the background.  I don't see that and I have periodically checked the fault history to see if it's there.

My take on Xantrex is not good when it comes to owning up to issues and I believe that they changed more code than was suggested by my belabored info fest.  Personally it seems to me that while making the necessary changes required to fix the global variable, they stumbled on the underlying cause for the small battery pack excuse.  It's very likely that in the course of early on development testing they encountered F49 and determined that a larger battery pack precluded the issue leading to the "excuse", when in reality it was the code that didn't properly address all situations - probably a real "aha" moment.  Of course, we'll never know that because they don't enumerate on fixes embedded in their firmware changes.

BTW, my reason for posting here at this late date was in response to a request from one of the moderators.

Dave Angelini

I have worked for some of the largest Tek companies and we never told the customer as much as they often wanted. One has to stay in business and not lose money.

Xantrex was bought by Schneider Electric BTW. Almost all firmware at Schneider has the fixes it adresses. Not everything but most of it. The XW was partially funded by a Department of Defense grant and they did not want "anybody plugging an ethernet cable in" at the time you had this problem.

It now can easily connect to the web thru combox. There is a web portal called Insight that allows you to read the system from anywhere on the web.

The XW+  I am testing for them now in my garage still states a minimum battery size of 440AH. I have never understood why someone would use a small battery bank on this inverter so I still do not get it from a technical point of view.

Bill is the only Moderator here I think?

pcguy2u

There are numerous reasons for a small battery pack - think space, the need for stored power being a simple convenience, not to mention $.  What we have here is a mid sized array in an area not known for its sunny days, hence the larger array.  I contend that F49 is gone, the "excuse" is just that and the continued use of that requirement is just to save face.  Pardon my cynicism.

Yes, it was Bill, but what difference does it make? 

Dave Angelini

None of this makes any difference

pcguy2u

Went through this entire thread again because I am considering going off grid (looks like I will need to double the size of my battery pack); PG&E is not consumer friendly and is targeting solar customers in order to maintain (subsidize) their current business model.  The should be adapting to the changing times and instead they are trying to adapt the changing times to match their business model.  Hmmmm...

Anyone have a suggestion for a 500-600AH battery pack?

System is still working perfectly as originally installed; sans the firmware fix from Xantrex/Schneider.

BB.

Have you thought about LiFePO4 (lithium iron phosphate---Generally a "safer" Lithium chemistry. Expensive up front--If you want integrated Li Ion BMS (battery management system) integration.... Need to check your present hardware/firmware levels (?) for compatibility.

Expensive upfront out of pocket... A well designed/good quality LiFePO4 battery bank should last 2x or more cycles vs Lead Acid... Nearly the ideal battery (no outgassing, works well in hot climates). Much better charge current acceptance (can accept high "noon time" charging current from array at max array  (and/or battery rated) current. No "absorb" time (charging "ends" when battery cell voltage hits "full" limits--No 2-6 hours of "absorb" cycle, no EQ cycles--In general).

Downsides--LiFePO4 batteries need to be "kept warm" (>~40F) when operating (can store below freezing if not cycling). If battery/cell voltages go too high or too low--Can quickly damage/ruin cells/batteries. Because of high surge current--You really need to install fusing/circuit breakers in yoru DC battery bus wiring to prevent short circuits/etc. from starting fires.

Li Ion batteries generally have some sort of BMS (battery management system). Some are "simple" (monitor cell voltage) to sophisticated (cell voltage monitoring--sense wires to each cell, bank temperature, perhaps active cell balancing/battery heaters/battery current with warning/shutdown circuitry/BMS integration with Charger/Inverter hardware).

I don't know enough about LI Ion BMS and integration and what works best with hour hardware (and hardware/firmware requirements).

LiFePO4 (and similar) chemistries are about the "perfect" battery (efficient, quick charging, high discharge surge current, high charging current vs FLA). Light weight, smaller battery bank foot print.

My personal suggestion... Make sure hardware/batteries/etc. are UL/NRTL Listed (keep insurance company and inspectors happy).

Research LI Ion batteries/BMS/integration options now--Before you need to replace a failing battery bank (can do price/availability search now too).

A personal suggestion.... As I understand, there can be issues with Li Ion battery fires. The LiFePO4 is one of the "safest" Li Ion battery times (can drive nails through batteries and they will not catch fire)... However with many Li Ion chemistries (a few, many, all???) if the batteries are in a fire (however they started) the fluorine in the battery/electrolyte+fire+water from fire fighting, can form Hydrofluoric Acid--A very nasty substance that needs an "active" antidote (vs just washing skin with water only) to prevent damage hours or days later to human body..

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-017-09784-z/ (Lithium Ion Battery fires and HF Acid generation)
https://ehs.unc.edu/topics/hazardous-chemicals/hydrofluoric-acid/ (example)
http://www.cfbt-be.com/images/teksten/Leren_uit_incidenten/Fire-Fighting-safety-message_-Li-ion-batteries.pdf

A house fire with a fair amount of Li Ion batteries:

https://www.kcra.com/article/15-exposed-to-toxic-fumes-after-responding-to-fairfield-house-fire/27933317

FAIRFIELD, Calif. (KCRA) —

Fifteen first responders were treated for exposure to toxic fumes after helping battle a house fire over the weekend in Fairfield, officials said Tuesday.

The Fairfield Fire Department said 11 firefighters and four officers reported feeling sick after being exposed to the fumes.

Crews responded to a fire at a home on Ash Court around 5 p.m. Saturday. There, crews found 200 pounds of lithium-ion batteries in the garage, the Fairfield Police Department said. According to officials, the batteries emitted fluoride gas after being exposed to the fire.

That's when the 15 people were exposed to the toxic fumes.

The fire department also said the incident was so toxic that crews had to throw away all the hoses and boots that were exposed while battling the blaze.

Investigators are now trying to determine what kind of business the homeowner was running.

The suggestion--Follow code and good practices for building out your system. And I would suggest that the batteries and equipment be in their own detached shed/building--And not inside a home/basement where cleanup may involve a scrape down to earth.

Again, I am not the expert here... There are many here that are very happy with the LiFePO4 battery banks. And folks that can give you better information than I...

-Bill

pcguy2u

Hey Bill, thanks for that great write-up...  The batteries I have are lead-acid and I was considering replacing them with the same type of batteries, just more of them.  Mostly because of what you pointed out above.  Thanks again, Nick

BB.

You are very welcome Nick.

By the way, if you are looking for a larger (AmpHour) battery bank in the future... You probably want to look at larger AH rated batteries (or cells)... I.e., 12 volt @ 100 AH batteries are the same size/weight/energy storage as 6 volt @ 200 AH batteries. Using 2x 6 volt @ 200 AH batteries you can make a 12 volt @ 200 AH battery bank vs 2x 12 volt @ 100 AH batteries in parallel.

In general, I highly suggest that battery banks be 1x strings, or 2-3 maximum parallel strings to keep wiring issues/costs/extra fuses/more connections to check/fewer cells to check&water, etc.--If you can.

-Bill

Brock

For what it's worth I recently changed from eight L-16's to four 48v 100A LiFePO4 server rack batteries with built in BMS to power our Xantrex 6048.  It wasn't cheap, but so far I am really liking it, no maintenance, no venting, smaller, cleaner.  I just set the xantrex to the bulk / float setting for the new batteries and it works great.  An easier swap than I had anticipated.  I will for sure not go back to lead acid.  Our batteries are in a conditioned space so I don't need to worry about the batteries being to hot or cold.  I would recommend anyone thinking about new batteries consider LiFePO4.

Dave Angelini

Been a long time Brock!  I would just add some caution that if you are running open loop charge / discharge you can damage LFP with an XW.  XW has a big charger and can also put a large load on a 100AH LFP battery.  I have seen alot of this lately.

Closing the loop eliminates this but is often extremely hard to do after the battery system is bought.

Brock

What is an open loop charge/discharge?  I do have the xantrex set to only 25 amps charge if needed in the middle of the night.  Each 48v 100a battery has its own 100amp BMS so I really have 400 amps at 48 (54) volts with 800 amps surge, which I hope to never need.  Most of the time I am pulling under 1000w or about 20 amps from the bank or 5 amps per pack. 

Horsefly

Brock said:

What is an open loop charge/discharge?  I do have the xantrex set to only 25 amps charge if needed in the middle of the night.  Each 48v 100a battery has its own 100amp BMS so I really have 400 amps at 48 (54) volts with 800 amps surge, which I hope to never need.  Most of the time I am pulling under 1000w or about 20 amps from the bank or 5 amps per pack. 

Hey Brock!  What brand of 48V 100Ah batteries did you get. The server rack batteries seem to be all the rage now.  I don't think you will have any over-current problems.

Brock

I have 4 of the EG4 LiFePower batteries.