Outback FlexPowerOne quits - horrible timing.

softdown

Personal load already off the charts.
Due to prepping (covid related) power usage had jumped from 4 KwH/day to 6 KwH/day for past couple weeks. So I unplugged the new power hog - nice fridge and plugged in an energy efficient 14 cu. ft. freezer today.

Was replacing a defunct security light when my "grid" went down. Disaster. Battery bank putting out 52.2 volts beyond the fuses. Everything on breaker panel is fine. WTF? Must be inverter then.

Inverter shows ominous red light 1.5" below the green light in upper left. MATE says "No AC power". Dang - bad timing with new food loads acquired - yesterday.

Genset starts but inverter does not co-operate. Call to Doug at Arizona Solar - he says I need to use the upper left "double breaker" with the metal plate. Bingo - immediate disaster averted but still a bit excitable.

Doug hints that inverter is dead - bought in 2012 - not bad at all. I lament that it started real life in 2015 and was used lightly in a cool, stable environment. Call goes dead - probably bad connection down in root cellar area.

Good inverter run or not? Doesn't matter now. Guess I need a new Outback 48 volt inverter. Don't want to replace whole MATE - no income this year. Covid closed a 27 year old business. Then I sold my rentals - were not paying right either.

Can I just replace the inverter? Or can it likely be fixed in timely fashion? I can probably run the diesel genset for several days - I would think.

Little help please?

mike95490

load up on diesel and motor oil - those change intervals will come quickly when running 24/7

sadly, inverter repair is an unknown trade.  If it's a simple blown internal fuse, easy .  But if a FET or Drivers fried, good luck on getting a fresh matched set and re-adjusting biases.  I think you are looking at a new inverter.  Maybe a board can be replaced on the old one and keep it as a spare ?

softdown

mike95490 said:

load up on diesel and motor oil - those change intervals will come quickly when running 24/7

sadly, inverter repair is an unknown trade.  If it's a simple blown internal fuse, easy .  But if a FET or Drivers fried, good luck on getting a fresh matched set and re-adjusting biases.  I think you are looking at a new inverter.  Maybe a board can be replaced on the old one and keep it as a spare ?

Now have 60 gallons of diesel while suspecting that I burn ~ 1/2 gallon/hour. I'll go with the oil in it since it has about 10 hours on it. Glad I have a decent diesel genset right now. Glad it happened while I was here! In almost decent weather during the daytime. Arizona Solar was open and a new inverter ships tomorrow. So more lucky than not.

Overnight is $550 for a Friday delivery. So Monday it will be - not the best of luck there but tolerable.

I expected 8-10 years in my environment but 6 is not horrible. Lot to be said for a new inverter in this environment. Some things could be said to those who talked me out of having a back up inverter for this day. I will burn 5 days and ~ 62 gallons of diesel while waiting for the new unit. Their advice looked ok - on paper.

Saved almost $200 on a customer return inverter due to wrong voltage. I can use that break! Arizona is also cheaper than Amazon by $200.

This was the last thing in the world I needed right now! Have heavy equipment to pick up in Denver and Kansas. Started a tree and lot clearing business after covid restrictions closed my last business. Dang radical #######. 

softdown

Looks to me that procuring a back up inverter, after 5 years, is a sound concept. Unless sitting unused in the shipping box exacted significantly from expected longevity. It did sit for almost 3 years.

Do Outback charge controllers usually last much longer than the inverter? Perhaps I should inquire about adding a CC to the shipment.

BB.

Electrolytic capacitors do age... But they age faster under cycling current and heat. I suggest that 5-10 years for power electronics "under power" is a reasonable life. 5 years after failure, you have a better chance of getting parts/firmware upgrade/factory support. At 10+ years, parts are difficult to find, manufacture has "walked away" from the product.

There is the concept of "reforming" electrolytic capacitors:

https://www.qsl.net/g3oou/reform.html

And buying/holding a spare--You are putting money on the shelf for X years, running out the warranty, and ending up with old/possibly out of production/no support "old in box" product.

It is a tough decision, you are responsible for keeping your system running. If you need reliable power/quick repair at any time in the next 10 years--Then having quick access to spares (local shop, shared spares supply with neighbors, or just you putting on shelf)--It is a cost of being off grid. If you can justify other backup power source (say running a genset and have fuel for a week to get support/parts--If that is even possible "today")--That is part of the whole spectrum of self repair/keeping power on/money as parts on your self vs your money in bank/under mattress.

-Bill

softdown

The argument against buying a spare was strong enough to not buy a spare. But a spare sure would have been nice.

If an inverter goes out anywhere from Wednesday afternoon to Saturday - one is likely looking at about 5 days of babysitting a generator and gobs of fuel. Or pay $550 for overnight shipping.  2 day shipping was also over $500 and only ensured a Monday delivery.

I just hope replacing the inverter goes smoothly. Bought a spare charge controller as well. At ~ $500 that is an easier pill to swallow.

There is much to be said for buying backup and emergency supplies when the funds are available. Some folks always have spare cash available. For others, their cash reserves may resemble a roller coaster.

Now for trying to get this dead inverter fixed. Wondering about the procedure for that. At least getting a price for repairs. I'd like to know what happened. Who gives estimates for inverter repairs? Who fixes inverters? Strikes me as a rare skill.

EDIT: There is an established repair concern in New Holland, Pennsylvania. https://www.zonnaenergy.com/solar-inverter-repair/

One closer to Colorado would sure be nice.

softdown

But as BB just pointed out, capacitors do not like long term storage. An exceptionally organized person might wait a couple years before getting the broken inverter fixed. Not a realistic expectation for this one. I have to do things when I am thinking about it. Or the idea may get shelved - permanently.

BB.

There is an older list of inverter repair houses:

https://forum.solar-electric.com/discussion/comment/241766#Comment_241766

If you find one you like, just let me know and I will add to the list.

I was trying to give the plus and minuses of spares on shelf... I hope I was not too negative. If you are looking at $500 2 day shipping costs, that is certainly something to take into account too.

-Bill

vtmaps

Another possibility:  go buy a small inverter generator.  Your consumption of 6 kwh per day is an average of only 250 watts.  The refrigerators may have a large surge, so you probably need at least a 1000 watt generator.   You could buy a 2000 watt generator, use it for a week, then sell it.  That would cost you less than overnight shipping or a week of 24/7 diesel fuel.

--vtMaps

softdown

BB. said:

There is an older list of inverter repair houses:

https://forum.solar-electric.com/discussion/comment/241766#Comment_241766

If you find one you like, just let me know and I will add to the list.

I was trying to give the plus and minuses of spares on shelf... I hope I was not too negative. If you are looking at $500 2 day shipping costs, that is certainly something to take into account too.

-Bill

Seem to be for old Xantrex and Trace inverters - going way back!
Did see mention of our host - wonder if they do it. That would be ideal.

Saggys

Outback is supposed to have field replaceable boards, might want to contact their customer support, they might be able to help you identify the bad board or boards.

softdown

Saggys said:

Outback is supposed to have field replaceable boards, might want to contact their customer support, they might be able to help you identify the bad board or boards.

Good idea but I already had way too large of load to deal with. Just got bigger as seen with the Yamaha 2000 inverter genset saga.

littleharbor2

softdown said:

But as BB just pointed out, capacitors do not like long term storage. 

Funny you mention that. My Trace SW4024 was 15 years old and still sitting in the factory sealed box when I first commissioned it. Fortunately it has been running flawlessly from day one.

softdown

littleharbor2 said:

softdown said:

But as BB just pointed out, capacitors do not like long term storage. 

Funny you mention that. My Trace SW4024 was 15 years old and still sitting in the factory sealed box when I first commissioned it. Fortunately it has been running flawlessly from day one.

Good to hear from you! One of the members I feel somewhat connected with. Have you finally went four wheeling? Can't imagine living in Baja with an unused 4WD. But I also constantly see vast areas of Colorado that I inexplicably have not explored yet,

Seems that many capacitors handle long term storage while others do not. I could see a quality manufacturer endeavoring to use capacitors that can handle longer term storage. I hope capacitors can usually handle storage since I have bought plenty of back up electronics. Part of being a serious prepper since 2007ish.

How long has your Trace been running now? Longer than mine served I'm sure. Seems that Trace and Xantrex dominated the off grid market for a long time. Perhaps they still do - as Schneider(sp)? Magnum has momentum with their 240 volt offering.

All it takes is one electronic bit to bite the dust. Having fully adjusted to this set back I will contact Outback and start the process of fixing my broken inverter.

The big problem is I was already running behind on retrieving heavy equipment in eastern Kansas and north Denver, This represents a week of babysitting gensets. The fuel mileage in the diesel genset was getting much worse as the air filter grew progressively clogged.

softdown

Lessons to be learned?

Be ready for 5-6 days of no solar power if your inverter or charge controller bites the dust. If you experience no power on, say, Tuesday it will likely take you a few hours of "fooling around" before you come to grips with ordering another unit. Shipping takes 3-4 business days unless you pay hundreds for overnight or two day shipping. Lost days with the week end of course. Babysitting a genset for about a week is pretty tedious. I doubt the genset much appreciates 24/7 service either.

An inverter genset is the only way to go. Be ready to very possibly forgo microwave usage unless you have a small microwave. PLus the gas tanks are, I believe, about a gallon in size. So a larger reservoir would be awfully nice. Anybody know of a good easy work around on that?

The timing was simply awful yet it could have been far worse. I am heavily invested in frozen foods for one thing.

All in all I'd have to recommend having spare parts readily available after, say, five years. I got six years of usage, following three years of storage, in spite of really ideal conditions and fairly low power consumption rates. I have wondered if boosting the output voltage from 120 volts to 124 volts played a role in the inverter demise. I have some really long runs so 124 volts helped in that regard. Guess I won't do that again.

JRHill

Softdown, my VFX3648 began to act up in January (AGS, everything else worked fine). Outback does not sell parts for the obsolete unit and I needed a power board. The VFX was 12 years old. Since I had gone with SimpliPhi I really needed the VFXR anyway so went that direction.

Anyway, I purchased a power board from Zonna Energy. The board was brand new - not an repair part. Ultimately I didn't install the board but instead sold the inverter and board to someone who needed it. After 12 years of faithful service I couldn't complain.

But to the OP and the your inverter's failure, I had seen your other post about generator issues and the surge loads when appliances kicked on. I am sure you experienced several times of the VFX's charger kicking out and the inverter taking over. Its a cool feature but I always cringed when it happened and I avoided it like a plague (ironic term these days). I ultimately ended that happening by purchasing an EU7000is. That was 4 years and 2000 generator hours ago but it was an excellent investment. And its the most fuel efficient generator I've ever owned and with today's fuel prices its slowly paying for itself on each run.

BB.

Softdown,

I hope you did not decide not to keep a spare of the shelf because of the Electrolytic capacitor aging issue by itself.

More or less, what I was trying to convey is that there are a wide range of issues that affect any product--Whether in use, as spares, etc... And I was trying to quantify those as costs to make it easier to compare.

I have a 22 year old genset that I have never even fired up (wife was really worried about Y2K--She is a retired software engineer). I however, was not worried because I had seen so many folks working on Y2K issues that I figured our power grid would be (on average) not affected... Little did I know that California "deregulation" (just more regulations--Imagine that) of the electrical utilities would cause blackouts and utility bankruptcies (aka "Enron" stuff)--For us, maybe one 2 hour blackout--Which I never bother to fire up the genset for such a short outage.

I did, years later buy a Honda eu2000i (vs the 4 kW or so Generac in 2000) because of obvious maintenance issues (again, caused by more regulators with their fingers in the "green pie") was going to cause more/longer outages than I have seen since a late 1950's storm that knocked out electricity for a week.... (got the Honda because it was way more fuel efficient than the larger genset to run a couple fridge/freezers and some lighting).

Kept the (now 14 year old) eu2000i (and the 22 year old old in box Generac) pickled (just oiled, never started)--And low and behold, California wild fires and proscriptive blackouts. Pulled Honda out of storage, added fuel, pulled the start card a few times and had power. Did the same thing with the ~6 year in box Honda eu2000i for my in-laws--And ran that for 4 days.

Was I worried about the (any?) electrolytic caps in the gensets--Not really... I had basically 3 backups (from old tech to new inverter tech). And at the worse, I was just going to lose food in the fridge/freezers--Since I already had canned and dried food for emergencies anyway.

I had already "wrote off" the costs of the gensets... If one ran--Of course I would be happy. If not, had other options (gensets, food, water, fuel)--And at worst, stored genset fuel to fill gas tank and bug out of town (where I live--That was never going to really be a need).

For us--Wildfires and Earthquakes are (relatively) random occurrences. For folks that live in storm alley--The shortages of gensts/fuel/plywood pretty much (seems to) happen every year--Even if they themselves as individuals, were not hit (that time).

Having spares on the shelf is pretty much a cost of being off grid/prepping. I understand at times, your bank account is not as flush as you would like at times (who's is?). I was suggesting to look at the multiple gensets, fuel supplies, and such as possible short term workarounds until you could get your replacement parts. But when you are looking at $500 and possibly weeks to get your replacement parts (such as relatively specialized solar related), that spare on the shelf which cost your $$ may be worth $$$$ if/when you need it years down the road. And understand that the $$ may be "lost" if you don't need spares or, heaven forbid, it does not function when needed.

Take care,
-Bill

JRHill

Bill, as I was writing the reply I was wondering if I was being $ insensitive. 3 PHIs, and the VFXR were a major hit to the budget esp in a short time. Even with that hit I was so impressed with the PHIs that I added a 4th after 2 months. In 12+ years the panels and OB hardware cost nothing after the original expense.

Where money was consumed was 1) experimenting with generators, and 2) L16 batteries. I need not go into detail about generators but I had run the route through expensive, larger brand names which were incompatible and inefficient to smaller units that were management/operationally tedious. As for batteries, well, two banks of Trojans in <10 years was not reasonable. Neither was $250k to bring PUB power to us.

So after that time the 'experiment' with the EU7000is was a delight and the SimpliPhi batteries likewise. Those solved 1 & 2 above. If I left the earth tomorrow the most maintenance the DW has is to fuel the genset and do the oil, service air filter, etc.

softdown

^^^ You write well but I get lost with the abbreviations.

I  have plenty of genset power and could have avoided using the big diesel. I was kind of emotional and just fired up the most convenient and the sure thing - the diesel is always ready to use. I try to service the battery every month and endeavor to have 15 gallons of fuel available. It is also closest to the inverter and has never once failed to start. It has struggled once or twice - that is why the battery needs to be topped off every month. I just replaced the 2012 battery that was still ok - if serviced every month. I knew its time was limited and who wants to deal with no power at 3am in a storm?

I'm hoping that Outback has parts for the inverter that was bought in 2012. Guessing at least 50/50 chance on that. Otherwise I send it in and cross my fingers. At 75 pounds, shipping is also significant.

I bought about $250,000 worth of used tree service and lot clearing equipment between August and now. Most of the items need from simple to more involved repairs. I like my equipment to be close to 100%. So I already had too many repairs to deal with. Shoot - I still have a large truck in north Denver to retrieve. Plus two very large pieces of equipment in eastern Kansas.

I'm 63 now - looking at 4 to 10 decent years of tree service and lot clearing work. I feel like the clock is ticking and could not toast a year just screwing around. Covid dealt a severe and completely unexpected blow to my finances. Prior to covid, I could have relaxed and retired at 67. Of course millions suffered more than me. We don't hear about the millions who lost their business. I was one but the sale of the rentals allowed the opening of another. I hope folks refrain from telling me what I really should have done. Plenty of friends and family already did that.

JRHill

Sorry.
-PHIs are the lithium batteries from SimpliPhi. I use 3.8-48v blocks.
-Your original inverter is a VFX3648 and obsolete. The new one is the VFXR3648. It has new programming options needed for lithium batteries. (I hope OB treats you well on the return for repair.)
-L16 is the size of the Trojan batteries I used for years. The ones that make your back sore just looking at them.
-EU7000is is the big honker Honda gasoline generator. Fuel injected and an inverter. They say you shouldn't love things that can't love you back. I think this thing loves me back so I'm OK.

63, your just a kid (wink). I'm glad you have such a good attitude. There are people that have good resources yet sour attitudes and probably have worse resulting problems than you. And your health also. Sounds like you do well.

BB.

And for me... I try never tell people what they MUST DO. I always try to provide enough information for you and others to make their own decisions (and ask more questions, if needed).

Where I get a little more adamant, is around safety. And even them, I tend to "talk/harp about" it once then let the discussion move on.

I even allow/support discussions around subjects (those "what if/what happens if" solar/electrical/equipment related) that could be considered unsafe or even unlawful. I try not to censor those discussions either.

-Bill

BB.

Telling me what I should have done? I have a wife for that. 

-Bill

softdown

BB. said:

Telling me what I should have done? I have a wife for that. 

-Bill

A universal rule that shalt not be infringed.

BB.

Regarding JRHill,

I ended up making a spread sheet to look at loading vs fuel use. I am kind of stuck on Honda--Besides reliability (I hope), wanted quiet (live in residential neighborhood--Had a friend trying his genset years ago and 1/2 block away sounded like a rifle range next door). Also I was looking at my average loads vs fuel usage (mfg. numbers from web--I try to be accurate, but do your own research/confirming numbers):

NOTE: I have updated chart at post #27 below--Better titles and added guesses at full and 1/4 load for Champion genset.

Model	Peak W	running W	25% running W	Full load time H	25% load time	Tank size	FWH per Gallon	QWH per gallon	1/4 gph	1/1 gph
eu1000i	1000	900	225	3.2	7.1	0.6	4,800	2,663	0.085	0.188
eu2000i	2000	1600	400	3.4	8.1	0.95	5,726	3,411	0.117	0.279
eu2200i	2200	1800	450	3.2	8.1	0.95	6,063	3,837	0.117	0.297
eu3000i	3000	2600	650	3.5	7.7	1.6	5,688	3,128	0.208	0.457
eu3000iS	3000	2800	700	7.1	20	3.4	5,847	4,118	0.170	0.479
eu7000is	7000	5500	1375	6.4	16	5.1	6,902	4,314	0.319	0.797
			50% loading		50% load time			1/2 WH/gallon	1/2 gph
Champion 3500	4375	3500	1750		12	4.7		4,468	0.392

I threw the Champion "standard genset" in here just to compare (could not find 100% load rated fuel flow for Champion, but would guess even better fuel efficiency than the inverter-generators--As I had seen years ago)... You can see, the larger the genset, the more efficient they are (generally). And the Inverter-Generators (Honda here) running 1/4 loads are roughly similar fuel efficiency as a standard genset (non-inverter) running at 50% rated load.

For me, with GT solar, I had no batteries, so there was no way I could (for example) load a genset @ 50% loading for hours at a time to recharge a battery bank. My average loads were probably closer to 1/4 load of a 1.8 kWatt genset (couple of fridge/freezers running at the same time or ~240 Watts + some led lighting/etc.)... Or on an eu2000i, around 0.117 gph vs my (old) 3,500-4,000 Watt standard genset of something near 0.392 gph... Or less than 1/3rd the fuel usage of eu7000i.

For somebody like Softdown with a battery bank (off grid normally)--Sizing a standard genset for 50-80% loading when charging batteries--Excluding noise levels issues, the cheaper non-inverter gensets can be pretty fuel efficient.

Would have loved to get the Honda eu7000iS (have several family homes I help take care of--Use for floating emergency power) as it also has electronic fuel injection--But still would still use something like 2.7x more fuel to give me (on average) 450 Watts...

Let alone cost issues--Having 2-3x longer runtime for "enough power" to run my home from genset... Storage and yearly transfer of fuel back to vehicles to recycle/fresh fuel for storage--Being conservation minded and minimal backup power usage--Smaller/quieter/fuel efficient inverter-generator just made sense for me.

Costco and other places are selling lots of inverter-generators now at 1/2 the price or less of a Honda. With lots of bells and whistles (hour meters, bluetooth, etc. and PSW output--NOT MSW--Good thing). And a larger (than I really need) genset that run from gas/propane/natural gas--Natural Gas at ~$800 or so would be nice--No/less fuel storage for me. I still justify fuel storage as we are "earthquake prone" area--And natural gas could be cut off in some cases (never has been a widespread issue yet--But who knows).

-Bill

JRHill

Bill, what a graph! I an not clear on the FWH and QWH per Hour.

And below the Hondas you have another row - is that to adjust for the Champion below?

Sorry, I want to understand what I'm looking at.

softdown

So the Yamaha is either kaput or the huge freezer now has a damaged compressor that exerts an undue load when starting up. At any rate the Yamaha only works for a very short time. Oddly it worked for several hours this morning and into the early afternoon.

Running the Honda 3500 until I get the gas out since I do not know how old it is - bought it used. Seems to do OK in fuel usage - thinking less than 1/2 gallon/hour and that is an extremely rough guess.

Thinking the diesel will do much, much better now that it can breath properly. The emissions are now invisible and the start up noise and length have returned to normal.

As can be expected, more or less, two steps forward and one step back.

Think I can return the Yamaha - I kept the receipt on the box. But I'm unsure if the issue is the freezer compressor. At ~ 20 cu. ft. I think it is a commercial unit. Should have measured the energy usage but failed to get a round tuit. Things have been crazy since covid hit.

BB.

Was just abbreviations for me when I did the spread sheet a year ago...

FWH=100% "full power load" Watt*Hour per gallon of gasoline
QWH= 25% "1/4 rated load" Watt*Hour per gallon of gasoline

For the Champion, I could not find 100% load rating, but assume that it is a bit less than 2x the 50% rated load fuel flow. (which is strange--I was pretty sure a few years ago I found 100% fuel rating or Hour per Tank was common for portable gensets).

And running the Champion at 25% rated load, that fuel flow will still be (approximately) the same as 50% load (or 1/2 as fuel efficient as 50% loading).

We have had a few folks here talk about their use, or a contractor friend usage, finding that non-inverter genset just sucked down the fuel usage was a pain--fuel usage to buy and bring fuel to site (and noisy). 

I have updated the chart headers a bit, and I have added the last line which is a (rough) guess at what a Champion 3,500 Watt genset would look like at 100% power and 25% power... Note: The 100% and 25% numbers probably are on the low side of estimate (over estimated fuel usage by 10% or so???)--But are probably close enough for planning/comparing.

Model	Peak Watts	100% running W	25% running W	Full load time H	25% load time	Tank gallons	100% WH per Gallon	25% WH per gallon	25% gph	100% gph
eu1000i	1000	900	225	3.2	7.1	0.6	4,800	2,663	0.085	0.188
eu2000i	2000	1600	400	3.4	8.1	0.95	5,726	3,411	0.117	0.279
eu2200i	2200	1800	450	3.2	8.1	0.95	6,063	3,837	0.117	0.297
eu3000i	3000	2600	650	3.5	7.7	1.6	5,688	3,128	0.208	0.457
eu3000iS	3000	2800	700	7.1	20	3.4	5,847	4,118	0.170	0.479
eu7000is	7000	5500	1375	6.4	16	5.1	6,902	4,314	0.319	0.797
Non-Inverter			50% loading		50% load time			1/2 WH/gallon	1/2 gph
Champion 3500	4375	3500	1750		12	4.7		4,468	0.392
Guesses below	Peak Watts	100% Running Watts	25% running Watts	Full load Hours	25% load Hours	Tank gallons	100% WH/gallon	25% WH/Gallons	25% gph	100% gph
Camp @ 100%/25% guess	4375	3500	875	6	12	4.7	4,468	2,234	0.392	0.783

Note Watt*Hour per gallon... Typically 3,xxx Watt/Hour per gallon range for Inverter-Genset above seems like a good round number. And if you can get >5,0000 WH per gallon (for gasoline)--That is pretty good--But for our members--Mostly achievable for 50-80% (of rated genset capacity) during battery charging wattage.

For the Champion 100%/25% estimate, I used 2x 50% for 100% fuel usage. And 25% fuel usage = 50% fuel usage. May overestimate fuel usage by 10% or so--But I have nothing I can quickly find on the Internet for popular brands that list 100% fuel usage these days for gasoline/portable gensets these days.

My assumptions. Nobody runs a genset at 100% of rated power unless they are running electric heaters/lighting/electric water pumps/charging large battery banks. For most homes (just emergency backup), 25% of genset output is probably "close enough" for our needs (i.e., a refrigerator running 120 Watts takes ~600 Watts or so starting/defrosting). Still need the larger genset to start motor loads (which can be 5x running current). And inverter-generators probably the same suggestion.

And, therefore, genset marking types not stating 100% fuel usage are "hiding" facts--But at the same time, few people will ever use the genset at 100%. Otherwise, looking at Champion (not picking on them--Just handy) running 3,500 Watts @ 6+ hours on 4.7 gallons of gasoline (full power)--That is a lot of fuel. 12 hours on 4.7 gallons is "less scary"--Which I suggest is what the typical genset user will see.

And looks, at least, somewhat closer to an inverter genset getting 20 hours on 3.4 gallons of fuel @ 25% loading.

For me, fuel storage is a pain. 5 gallon gas cans (California, of course, has a law for that--5 gallon max gas cans), siphoning to car once a year, and refilling the stash. I want to minimize fuel usage.

As VTmaps suggests--Inverter-generators do not have much "surge" current capacity. A standard genset will just bog down and drop the output voltage until the surge "goes away" and the compressor/motor starts. Inverter-generators have very little surge over peak rated power (if any). They have "electronics" that quickly will shutdown AC output until the load is removed--And can result in never starting the fridge (or sometimes even stall the motor if in "ECO" throttle mode).

For a refrigerator, "our" typical suggested "inverter" sizing is around 1,200 to 1,500 Watts minimum. I would suggest that also applies to an inverter generator (such as the Honda eu1000i--900 Watt rated--may be too small to reliably start a typical refrigerator--My guess).

-Bill

BB.

Softdown,

Regarding starting problems... If you have a kill-a-watt type power meter, look at the VA (volt*amps) and the power factor... If you have a bad capacitor or welded starting contacts, you will probably see very abnormal PF (>80% or 0.80 is probably good--Less than 0.60 is questionable)--Pure guessing.

May compare with second fridge/running on other genset to see if can compare.

Also, if the Yamaha inverter is "lightly toasted", you may see poor voltage output and/or poor power factor into motor loads (missing negative waveform, non-sine wave now)--You might see that with a "good fridge" plugged into the Yamaha.

If all you have is a DMM current (or current clamp) meter--High current flow may also show up too.

-Bill

littleharbor2

softdown said:

littleharbor2 said:

softdown said:

But as BB just pointed out, capacitors do not like long term storage. 

Funny you mention that. My Trace SW4024 was 15 years old and still sitting in the factory sealed box when I first commissioned it. Fortunately it has been running flawlessly from day one.

Good to hear from you! One of the members I feel somewhat connected with. Have you finally went four wheeling? Can't imagine living in Baja with an unused 4WD. But I also constantly see vast areas of Colorado that I inexplicably have not explored yet,

Seems that many capacitors handle long term storage while others do not. I could see a quality manufacturer endeavoring to use capacitors that can handle longer term storage. I hope capacitors can usually handle storage since I have bought plenty of back up electronics. Part of being a serious prepper since 2007ish.

How long has your Trace been running now? Longer than mine served I'm sure. Seems that Trace and Xantrex dominated the off grid market for a long time. Perhaps they still do - as Schneider(sp)? Magnum has momentum with their 240 volt offering.

All it takes is one electronic bit to bite the dust. Having fully adjusted to this set back I will contact Outback and start the process of fixing my broken inverter.

The big problem is I was already running behind on retrieving heavy equipment in eastern Kansas and north Denver, This represents a week of babysitting gensets. The fuel mileage in the diesel genset was getting much worse as the air filter grew progressively clogged.

Good hearing from you too. Living full time in Baja now. Been all over in my many off road vehicles.  
 As to the inverter, I has been running full time for 6-7 years now without a glitch.
 I just ordered a Schneider SW 4048 for a friend who is building a new system. Great price from the forum host.  They are split phase 120/240 as well. As long as it lasts I feel it is the best deal out there. Over $400 less than the Magnum offering. 

softdown

JRHill said:

Softdown, my VFX3648 began to act up in January (AGS, everything else worked fine). Outback does not sell parts for the obsolete unit and I needed a power board. The VFX was 12 years old. Since I had gone with SimpliPhi I really needed the VFXR anyway so went that direction.

Anyway, I purchased a power board from Zonna Energy. The board was brand new - not an repair part. Ultimately I didn't install the board but instead sold the inverter and board to someone who needed it. After 12 years of faithful service I couldn't complain.

But to the OP and the your inverter's failure, I had seen your other post about generator issues and the surge loads when appliances kicked on. I am sure you experienced several times of the VFX's charger kicking out and the inverter taking over. Its a cool feature but I always cringed when it happened and I avoided it like a plague (ironic term these days). I ultimately ended that happening by purchasing an EU7000is. That was 4 years and 2000 generator hours ago but it was an excellent investment. And its the most fuel efficient generator I've ever owned and with today's fuel prices its slowly paying for itself on each run.

The plan has been to go lithium when this bank goes sideways. Already bought two 24 volt lithiums but only one "battery maintainer" or whatever it is called. I was financially stressed and felt I could move the cell balancer/maintainer back and forth - periodically. I also thought the Outback deserved more credit than it received for being able to maintain the batteries - outside of cell balancing.

I was more or less planning on correcting this then I spent 8 months fixing two rental units to sell. Even had to replace the plywood floor in the kitchen and bathroom in one unit. Tenants can simply destroy a house in unimaginable ways.

Will the new Outback VFX3648 take care of cell balancing? I currently don't see how it could.

The lithium project went sideways with the covid shake up and spending 8 months on rental rehabs then starting a new business.

BB.

A BMS (battery management system) connects to each cell (or parallel group of cells) 1) monitor the cell voltage (too high of voltage, too low of voltage) and then "alert" or issue shutdown to battery bank (various BMS do different things). And 2) many BMS will "balance" cell voltages in the stack. Over time and state of charge/charging, will move a little bit of current around to drop "higher voltage cells to lower voltage cells.

Your option is to either "pre-balance" cells (all cells are about the same voltage) individually (or you could even clip a small load to a cell/ground and slowly discharge--And once balanced, you and your battery monitor just "watch" cell voltage... Or you can buy a BMS that shuttles current between cells and actively balance.

Manual balancing Li Ion--Generally Li Ion cells stay in balance pretty well over time and you probably do not need to do active balancing. Cells that are out of balance--When you need 100% SoC--You can have one cell/group of cells "over voltage" and trigger a BMS alarm/shutdown... Or when battery bank is near 0% SoC and again trigger the BMS Alarm and/or battery shutdown. Typically Li Ion batteries are "top balanced" for solar power systems (protect cells from damage at 100% SoC) and "bottom balanced" for electric vehicles (protect cells from damage with total discharge).

Li Ion cells are near 100% efficient both power wise, and Amp*Hour wise... Means you cannot "balance" a cell pack by controlled over charging--Such as you do with Lead Acid batteries and EQ (equalize charging).

This certainly one of the solar projects where "Details Matter".

-Bill