LiFePO4 talk

Chris11

Hello All,

I've been watching a guy named Will Prouse on YouTube....seems very knowledgable on solar stuff.  Most of what he says is above my head so I drank a bunch of beer to see it that increased my understanding.  Well let me report it didn't but I no longer cared so it kiinda worked perfectly.

The video I was watching was Will doing some review on LiFePO4 batteries.  Since he talks so fast and obviously I hadn't drank enough beer I didn't understand it.

Question:

What attracts people to pay about a bazillion dollars more to get approximately the same capacity, keeping in mind that technology is advancing so rapidly that type of battery may be obsolete in a few years?

Thanks, Chris     (Oh, it's OK, I've been drinking beer so you can type fast and be really smart.)

Photowhit

I'm NOT a fan of Will. Lithium has a lot of great qualities for off grid systems.

Their light weight would make them particularly interesting for RV use.

They are very efficient at storing energy. Losing only 3-5% when charging and storing compared to 10-20% for flooded lead acid.

They are expensive and require a Battery management system.

They don't work well when below 40 and should not be charged below 32 degrees. 

mike95490

I don't drink beer or watch foolTube

Ampster

Chris11 said:

Question:

What attracts people to pay about a bazillion dollars more to get approximately the same capacity, keeping in mind that technology is advancing so rapidly that type of battery may be obsolete in a few years?

I have made several assumptions that are different than yours so I have reached a different conclusion. I gave up on Lead Acid batteries when I converted a VW to electric nine years ago. Since then I have been using Lithium batteries for several grid interactive systems. The last group I purchased cost less than $110 per kWh. I have seen another brand for less than $100 per kWh. That technology has been around for 20 years and I do not expect it will be obsolete in a few years. Based on the manufacturing capacity that is under construction just in the USA by Tesla and GM it will be around for a while. Nothing else on the horizon can match its energy density. For stationary storage I prefer the safer LFP chemistry.. 
 It all depends on where you are standing. 

mike95490

Ampster said:

  ...Based on the manufacturing capacity that is under construction just in the USA by Tesla and GM it will be around for a while. .....

Are you saying they will get a shipment of raw material and construct the cells, or are they getting a pallet of cells from overseas, and assembling them into a vehicle battery ?

Ampster

mike95490 said

Are you saying they will get a shipment of raw material and construct the cells, or are they getting a pallet of cells from overseas, and assembling them into a vehicle battery ?

Panasonic Energy North America manages that process for Tesla at the factory in Nevada and they start with raw materials. I saw a recent discussion by one of the managers and they mentioned that they produce a million cells per day of the small cells. They are starting to ramp up the larger cells and the quantity may ramp down but the GWhrs will probably increase. I do not know the output in GWhs but that factory has only been built out to 50 percent of the total available capacity. 
I do not know the details of the GM and LG Chem partnership at Lordstown. Curently GM imports cells from LG Chem factories in Asia. That factory is nearing completion.
Lead acid battery manufacturing capacity is currently greater than Lithium but the numbers I have seen suggest that it is not growing. I do not know if that is a US statistic or a global statistic.

robartist

Lifepo4 batteries are only expensive if you buy them from American companies.  For some reason companies here take cheap 3.2v lifepo4 cells, add a bms, a container and then decide they need to make 500 to 1000% markup to make a profit.  Get the cells yourself from Alibaba or Aliexpress and build the batteries yourself.  3.2v cells plus busbars, plus bms and you have yourself a battery.  4 cells for 12V, 8 cells for 24v, and 16 for 48v battery.  Lots of research needs to go into this beforehand but you will learn all about your batteries and how to build them.  Screw the American companies overcharging.  It seems like no one wants to make a living.  They all are trying to get rich quick!

Dave Angelini

What about the Canadians, or South Korea, or Europe? Or do you just hate the US? Companies have shareholder who have to get paid also in many cases. They also have to build a safe product with a warranty and meet UL and UN requirements for their products. They also have to pass an insurance or building inspection. The last thing is they have to maintain a good relationship with their customers 10+ years down the road. Not as easy as you think. Almost all of the homebrew that I have seen has been pretty bad in implementation.

 Build something nice and show us a picture!

softdown

Lots of pros and cons. I invested in lithium batteries since they store very well and I was concerned about breakdowns in the supply chain several months ago. There are different lithium technologies with various pros and cons.