Lion Energy - 12V 105Ah LiFePO4 - Limited Lifetime Warranty

mvasmvas Registered Users Posts: 382 ✭✭✭
Lion Energy - 12V 105Ah LiFePO4 - Limited Lifetime Warranty

Does anybody have any experience with...

Lion Energy batteries
=================
12 Volt @ 105 Ah = 1.26 kW-Hrs 
$1,000.00 
3,500 Cycles - extreme usage ( 90% DOD ? )
5,000 Cycles - normal use ( 60% DOD ? )
Built-In BMS with temperature control
LIMITED LIFETIME WARRANTY
$0.254 cost per kWhr = $1,000 / ( 3,500 Cycles x 1.26 kW-Hrs x 90% DOD )
$0.208 cost per kWhr = $1,000 / ( 5,000 Cycles x 1.26 kW-Hrs x 60% DOD )

https://lionenergy.com/collections/batteries/products/lion-safari-ut-1300#specs

compare to ...

Trojan Renewable Energy L16RE-B
============================
6 Volt @ 370Ah = 2.22 kW-Hrs
$360.00
1,700 Cycles @ 50% DOD
2 + 5 Year Warranty
$0.191 Cost per kWhr = $360 / ( 1,700 Cycles x 2.22 kW-Hrs x 50% DOD )

Assuming the numbers from each manufacturer are comparable and my math is correct ...
then LiFePo4 batteries are now almost the same overall cost as FLA, without the any of the FLA hassle?

Comments

  • mvasmvas Registered Users Posts: 382 ✭✭✭
    edited March 6 #2

    Trojan Trillium Lithium 
    =================
    12 Volt @ 110 Ah = 1.32 kW-Hrs
    $1,100
    9,000 Cycles @ 50% DOD
    5,000 Cycles @ 90% DOD

    $0.185 Cost per kWhr = $1,100 / ( 9,000 Cycles x 1.32 kW-Hrs x 50% DOD ) 

    https://www.trojanbattery.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/10/trillium_lifecycle-4.png

    Lithium Batteries can be charged very quickly = big advantage for Off-Grid Homesteads with significant # of PV Panels
    Lithium Batteries have no PSOC, Partial State of Charge, issues like FLA & AGM
    Min / Max temperature can be an issue.
  • PhotowhitPhotowhit Solar Expert Posts: 5,249 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I'm going to try a new way of explaining the 'Bad Math' here;

    You forgot to add the extra gas you need if you plan on a daily discharge of 90%.
    1 cloudy day and you'll be running the generator.

    So if you choose to do the math, calculate the battery capacity like you would for a 'normal' off grid system with multiple days of autonomy(days without sun) Yes, I'm saying they will 'age out' before they 'cycle out'. 


    Home system 4000 watt (Evergreen) array standing, with 2 Midnite Classic Lites,  Midnite E-panel, Prosine 1800 and Exeltech 1100, 660 ah 24v ForkLift battery. Off grid for @16 of last 17 years. Assorted other systems, and to many panels in the closet to not do more...lol
  • mvasmvas Registered Users Posts: 382 ✭✭✭
    edited March 6 #4
    Do you not realize that we can recharge the Lithium Battery at a C/2 Rate?
    We can get back to 90% SOC within 2 HOURS of generator time.
    We can get back to 90% SOC within 2 HOURS of full sun using Solar Panels.

    A Flooded Lead Acid ( L16RE-B ) battery is typically recharged at a C/8 Bulk Rate,
    plus Hours of Absorb Time = total of  5 - 6 hours to go from 50% SOC, back up to 95% SOC
    A Lithium Battery does not need 5 - 6 hours, to recharge from 10% SOC, back up to +90% SOC !!!
    That is a game changer.
    It is your math that is wrong.
    Your "FLA math" does not apply to a Lithium setup.

    The work & skill to properly maintain a "FLA" battery is an order of magnitude greater than Lithium.
    Stay between 10% SOC & 90% SOC and the Lithium Battery bank will run for 10+ years, with you doing NOTHING.
    Lithium has no issues with Partial-State-of-Charge, in fact, a 50% SOC will extend its life.
    Lithium does not ever require a special equalization charge.
    Lithium does not ever require a measuring the SG
    Lithium does not ever require adding water
    Lithium is more like an AGM battery, but with at least, 5 TIMES the Cycles and no sulfation.

    If a Lion Energy battery fails before you get 3,500 Cycles @ 90% DOD,
    then get it replaced via the "Limited Lifetime Warranty"

    And don't try telling me that a Lithium Battery Pack cannot last 10+ years, because in the real world they can and they do.
    There are Nissan Leaf cars, made in 2010 with the original crappy GEN 1 Battery Pack, that are still on the road today.
    I have been waiting 10 YEARS to say that !

    The OVERALL lifetime cost of a Lithium Battery Pack vs FLA is now about the same.

    i already have a family, I don't need to be, and I don't want to be, married to a FLA Battery Bank.

    If you got nothing better to do with the rest of your life, then continue ...
    a) adjusting Absorb Voltages as the FLA ages
    b) measuring the SG in every cell and keeping a log
    c) doing EQ's when needed
    d) adding distilled water
    e) worrying about Low SOC = permanent sulfation
  • Wheelman55Wheelman55 Registered Users Posts: 116 ✭✭✭
    I like the Lithium...however consider that a “Lifetime” warranty is for the lifetime of the company that offers the warranty, not necessarily for the lifetime of the product.
    Building Off-Grid in Terlingua, TX
    14 CS 370 watt modules. HZLA horizontal tracker. Schneider: XW6048, Mini PDP, MPPT 80-600, SCP. 1 Discover AES 48 volt LiFePO4 battery 130 ah
  • Marc KurthMarc Kurth Solar Expert Posts: 794 ✭✭✭✭
    MVAS, Having a bad day?
    I always have more questions than answers. That's the nature of life.
  • PhotowhitPhotowhit Solar Expert Posts: 5,249 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 7 #7
    mvas said:
    Do you not realize that we can recharge the Lithium Battery at a C/2 Rate?
    We can get back to 90% SOC within 2 HOURS of generator time.
    We can get back to 90% SOC within 2 HOURS of full sun using Solar Panels.
    You won't be able to at my place, I don't use a generator or store fuel.
    and yes with a big enough array...
    ...but you need sunshine.

    mvas said:
    A Flooded Lead Acid ( L16RE-B ) battery is typically recharged at a C/8 Bulk Rate,
    plus Hours of Absorb Time = total of  5 - 6 hours to go from 50% SOC, back up to 95% SOC
    A Lithium Battery does not need 5 - 6 hours, to recharge from 10% SOC, back up to +90% SOC !!!
    That is a game changer.
    It is your math that is wrong.
    Your "FLA math" does not apply to a Lithium setup.
    No my math is fine, rarely we will have to use a long time to recharge, but we'll normally be floating before noon, because we have the storage to not run a generator, heck most days' we'll be in absorb once the sun hits solar noon and have no issues. Once in a while we'll need to go a couple days to recharge after several days of below 80%. 

    You still need the capacity if you don't want to run a generator and have that added expense.
    mvas said:
    If a Lion Energy battery fails before you get 3,500 Cycles @ 90% DOD,
    then get it replaced via the "Limited Lifetime Warranty"
    I went to their website to see how many weeks they had been in business, They don't have that information on their Company>Our Story info. I didn't see any Warranty info, but They do have a refund policy that states;

    "Refund Policy

    Returns 

    Our policy lasts 30 days. If 30 days have gone by since your purchase, unfortunately we can’t offer you a refund or exchange."

    mvas said:
    The work & skill to properly maintain a "FLA" battery is an order of magnitude greater than Lithium.
    Stay between 10% SOC & 90% SOC and the Lithium Battery bank will run for 10+ years, with you doing NOTHING.
    Lithium has no issues with Partial-State-of-Charge, in fact, a 50% SOC will extend its life.
    Lithium does not ever require a special equalization charge.
    Lithium does not ever require a measuring the SG
    Lithium does not ever require adding water
    Lithium is more like an AGM battery, but with at least, 5 TIMES the Cycles and no sulfation.

    Lithium will last less than 1 Month of December in my system, might not make it through November, Once we have a 20 degree day and my system tries to charge it it's toast!

    Lithium does need to be in heated space, to be charged.

    mvas said:
    If a Lion Energy battery fails before you get 3,500 Cycles @ 90% DOD,
    then get it replaced via the "Limited Lifetime Warranty"

    And don't try telling me that a Lithium Battery Pack cannot last 10+ years, because in the real world they can and they do.
    There are Nissan Leaf cars, made in 2010 with the original crappy GEN 1 Battery Pack, that are still on the road today.
    I have been waiting 10 YEARS to say that !

    So I NEVER SAID that lithium won't go 10 years or 20 for that matter. I just said they will 'age out' rather than cycle out. This is because you need the higher capacity in a properly designed solar electric home. To go for days without sun. 

    mvas said:
    i already have a family, I don't need to be, and I don't want to be, married to a FLA Battery Bank.

    If you got nothing better to do with the rest of your life, then continue ...
    a) adjusting Absorb Voltages as the FLA ages
    b) measuring the SG in every cell and keeping a log
    c) doing EQ's when needed
    d) adding distilled water
    e) worrying about Low SOC = permanent sulfation


    I'm not married to my lead acid battery, takes me 30 minutes a month, less than a lot of people spend staring at their system voltage it seem. I also heat with wood. Even if I had left a lithium battery bank inside 2 years ago when I went to Florida for Christmas. It would surely have been killed by trying to charge it while below freezing, because my mom broke a vertebra and I didn't get back until the first days of March. When I arrived I pulled a hot pocket out of the freezer (okay 2) and stuck them in the microwave.  

    With lithium I would have to choose, either rig up a temperature sensing shut off for the charger and toss the freezer/fridge food or rig up a heater. Either way much more complex.

    mvas said:
    The OVERALL lifetime cost of a Lithium Battery Pack vs FLA is now about the same.


    If I had to replace my Lead acid 16 kWh (80% usable) battery tomorrow, with a Lithium battery bank of the same usable capacity, using your number of 12 Volt @ 110 Ah = 1.32 kW-Hrs (with 90% usable capacity) even assuming my capacity is 80% of new. The number look something like this;

    FLA (16kWh x .8) x .8 = 10.24 kWhs capacity, replacement cost $2525 

    Lithium Ion 9x1.32 = 11.88 x .9 = 10.69 kWhs Replacement cost 9x $1100 = $9,900

    My battery is in it's 9th year... I'm betting it will make it 12, some have gotten over 20 years on forklift batteries. 

    So you are betting your battery will make it 40-50 years...

    I know I won't... 
    Best of luck to you.


    Home system 4000 watt (Evergreen) array standing, with 2 Midnite Classic Lites,  Midnite E-panel, Prosine 1800 and Exeltech 1100, 660 ah 24v ForkLift battery. Off grid for @16 of last 17 years. Assorted other systems, and to many panels in the closet to not do more...lol
  • mcgivormcgivor Solar Expert Posts: 3,438 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 7 #8
    Well it seems there are two schools of thought with polar opposite opinions, one which has had experience with lithium and the other without. There is really no comparison in performance in every aspect baring low temperature, lithium  (LiFePo4) in particular will win the competition hands down with lead acid in any shape or form.

    From a price perspective any warranty will be folded into the price, a DIY bank will be significantly less expensive than an engineered system with a warranty. pay attention to the warranty small print and follow the guidelines they specify to achieve longevity with a DIY bank. My DIY bank cost ~$2500 US for 10Kw slightly less than double that of flooded LA  GC batteries, those are now on their last legs on a second backup system nearing 4 years.
     
    Don't fall into the trap of undersizing the battery to take advantage of the increased performance, if a given capacity of lead acid suits the needs replace with the same capacity to avoid dissapointment. My 400Ah lead acid was replaced with 400Ah LiFePo4, the main reason was temperature, high temperature in my case, which is the enemy of LA. Due to their inherent inefficiency, there is little temperature  gain in comparison with FLA.

    Would I ever use LA again? No I've seen the light, is it right for you?  Perhaps not if low temperature is an issue, baring these shortcomings @mvas is correct.
    1500W, 6× Schutten 250W Poly panels , Schneider MPPT 60 150 CC, Schneider SW 2524 inverter, 400Ah LFP 24V nominal battery bank 
    Second system 1890W  3 × 300W No name brand poly, 3×330 Sunsolar Poly panels, Morningstar TS 60 PWM controller, no name 2000W inverter 400Ah FLA 24V nominal used for water pumping and day time air conditioning.  
    5Kw Yanmar clone single cylinder air cooled diesel generator for rare emergency charging and welding.
  • mike95490mike95490 Solar Expert Posts: 8,875 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Remember, if you want to quick charge your Li battery, you need a pretty massive charging source.   If you merely want to get to 50% or so, that's more doable.
    Powerfab top of pole PV mount | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
    || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
    || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

    solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
    gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister ,

  • Marc KurthMarc Kurth Solar Expert Posts: 794 ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 7 #10
    From my perspective:
    The main advantage of lithium for off grid solar is the ability to float for long periods at a partial state of charge. And THAT is a big deal. Lithium battery banks can happily sit at a low charge level while waiting for the weather to change. That can destroy lead-acid batteries. With lots and lots of PV and a small generator, this problem can be minimized for lead-acid battery banks. PV is cheap, batteries are not.
    The off grid projects that achieve a 10 year battery bank life that I have been involved with, have a healthy ratio of PV to battery bank size and at least a small generator for backup and unusual conditions. They are designed for shallow daily cycling. As Photowhit described, getting into Float early in the day is the key to longevity with lead-acid battery banks.
    I do not know how many off grid homes there are out there that have been running for 10-20 years. With a large enough sample, a good decision can be made regarding cost-effectiveness of the higher first cost.

    I always have more questions than answers. That's the nature of life.
  • mvasmvas Registered Users Posts: 382 ✭✭✭
    Photowhit said:
    mvas said:
    Do you not realize that we can recharge the Lithium Battery at a C/2 Rate?
    We can get back to 90% SOC within 2 HOURS of generator time.
    We can get back to 90% SOC within 2 HOURS of full sun using Solar Panels.
    You won't be able to at my place, I don't use a generator or store fuel.
    and yes with a big enough array...
    ...but you need sunshine.

    mvas said:
    A Flooded Lead Acid ( L16RE-B ) battery is typically recharged at a C/8 Bulk Rate,
    plus Hours of Absorb Time = total of  5 - 6 hours to go from 50% SOC, back up to 95% SOC
    A Lithium Battery does not need 5 - 6 hours, to recharge from 10% SOC, back up to +90% SOC !!!
    That is a game changer.
    It is your math that is wrong.
    Your "FLA math" does not apply to a Lithium setup.
    No my math is fine, rarely we will have to use a long time to recharge, but we'll normally be floating before noon, because we have the storage to not run a generator, heck most days' we'll be in absorb once the sun hits solar noon and have no issues. Once in a while we'll need to go a couple days to recharge after several days of below 80%. 

    You still need the capacity if you don't want to run a generator and have that added expense.
    mvas said:
    If a Lion Energy battery fails before you get 3,500 Cycles @ 90% DOD,
    then get it replaced via the "Limited Lifetime Warranty"
    I went to their website to see how many weeks they had been in business, They don't have that information on their Company>Our Story info. I didn't see any Warranty info, but They do have a refund policy that states;

    "Refund Policy

    Returns 

    Our policy lasts 30 days. If 30 days have gone by since your purchase, unfortunately we can’t offer you a refund or exchange."

    mvas said:
    The work & skill to properly maintain a "FLA" battery is an order of magnitude greater than Lithium.
    Stay between 10% SOC & 90% SOC and the Lithium Battery bank will run for 10+ years, with you doing NOTHING.
    Lithium has no issues with Partial-State-of-Charge, in fact, a 50% SOC will extend its life.
    Lithium does not ever require a special equalization charge.
    Lithium does not ever require a measuring the SG
    Lithium does not ever require adding water
    Lithium is more like an AGM battery, but with at least, 5 TIMES the Cycles and no sulfation.

    Lithium will last less than 1 Month of December in my system, might not make it through November, Once we have a 20 degree day and my system tries to charge it it's toast!

    Lithium does need to be in heated space, to be charged.

    mvas said:
    If a Lion Energy battery fails before you get 3,500 Cycles @ 90% DOD,
    then get it replaced via the "Limited Lifetime Warranty"

    And don't try telling me that a Lithium Battery Pack cannot last 10+ years, because in the real world they can and they do.
    There are Nissan Leaf cars, made in 2010 with the original crappy GEN 1 Battery Pack, that are still on the road today.
    I have been waiting 10 YEARS to say that !

    So I NEVER SAID that lithium won't go 10 years or 20 for that matter. I just said they will 'age out' rather than cycle out. This is because you need the higher capacity in a properly designed solar electric home. To go for days without sun. 

    mvas said:
    i already have a family, I don't need to be, and I don't want to be, married to a FLA Battery Bank.

    If you got nothing better to do with the rest of your life, then continue ...
    a) adjusting Absorb Voltages as the FLA ages
    b) measuring the SG in every cell and keeping a log
    c) doing EQ's when needed
    d) adding distilled water
    e) worrying about Low SOC = permanent sulfation


    I'm not married to my lead acid battery, takes me 30 minutes a month, less than a lot of people spend staring at their system voltage it seem. I also heat with wood. Even if I had left a lithium battery bank inside 2 years ago when I went to Florida for Christmas. It would surely have been killed by trying to charge it while below freezing, because my mom broke a vertebra and I didn't get back until the first days of March. When I arrived I pulled a hot pocket out of the freezer (okay 2) and stuck them in the microwave.  

    With lithium I would have to choose, either rig up a temperature sensing shut off for the charger and toss the freezer/fridge food or rig up a heater. Either way much more complex.

    mvas said:
    The OVERALL lifetime cost of a Lithium Battery Pack vs FLA is now about the same.


    If I had to replace my Lead acid 16 kWh (80% usable) battery tomorrow, with a Lithium battery bank of the same usable capacity, using your number of 12 Volt @ 110 Ah = 1.32 kW-Hrs (with 90% usable capacity) even assuming my capacity is 80% of new. The number look something like this;

    FLA (16kWh x .8) x .8 = 10.24 kWhs capacity, replacement cost $2525 

    Lithium Ion 9x1.32 = 11.88 x .9 = 10.69 kWhs Replacement cost 9x $1100 = $9,900

    My battery is in it's 9th year... I'm betting it will make it 12, some have gotten over 20 years on forklift batteries. 

    So you are betting your battery will make it 40-50 years...

    I know I won't... 
    Best of luck to you.


    I asked ... if anybody had any experience with Lion brand batteries.
    It appears that you do not.
    Your reply is simply your justification for still using your Forklift Lead Acid battery = off topic.
    I do not care that you are still using Lead Acid.
    We ARE moving from Lead Acid to Lithium, regardless of what you prefer.

    Lion Limited Lifetime Warranty: This warranty for the unit is extended to the original purchaser or user and it covers defects in materials and workmanship. The Safari UT 1200 has a limited lifetime warranty of the battery cells, rated at 80% of the original capacity. Under extreme use ( maximum charge and discharge rates ) the battery cells expected life cycle is 3,500. At “normal usage” the expected life cycles will be greater. 
  • Marc KurthMarc Kurth Solar Expert Posts: 794 ✭✭✭✭
    You are absolutely correct, that is what you asked. I do not have any hands-on experience with lithium battery banks in this size, but I thought that it might make a good friendly discussion topic. With apologies, I will refrain from posting further.
    Respectfully,
    Marc
    I always have more questions than answers. That's the nature of life.
  • PhotowhitPhotowhit Solar Expert Posts: 5,249 ✭✭✭✭✭
    mvas said:

    Assuming the numbers from each manufacturer are comparable and my math is correct ...
    then LiFePo4 batteries are now almost the same overall cost as FLA, without the any of the FLA hassle?

    Your post stated Above.

    I was showing you the error of your math calculations.
    Home system 4000 watt (Evergreen) array standing, with 2 Midnite Classic Lites,  Midnite E-panel, Prosine 1800 and Exeltech 1100, 660 ah 24v ForkLift battery. Off grid for @16 of last 17 years. Assorted other systems, and to many panels in the closet to not do more...lol
  • sajohnsonsajohnson Registered Users Posts: 1
    It looks like the last post in this thread was back in March.  FWIW I just ordered two Lion Energy UT 1300 batteries to replace the Crown GC2 batteries in our View (RV).  They look good on paper, and in the YouTube videos I've seen.  One weak spot is the terminals.  We have #4/0 welding cable feeding our inverter/charger.  I'm reluctant to connect them directly to the UT 1300s, but I can make them work.

    One plus, over other LiFePO4 batteries, is 150A continuous output current.

    It's rated at 105 Ah / 1,344 Wh.
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