230v appliance (Incinerating toilet) with sw4048 120/240?

kakarot

Hello,

I have an appliance that requires 230v 50hz 20amp dedicated circuit.

Can I use that appliance with the SW4048   120/240  48v inverter?

I want to make sure that the inverter will work with the appliance. No one seems to have the answer.

Thanks in advance

mike95490

It depends on the appliance.  A electric range has no surge power requirement, but a electric dryer has a starting surge for the motor.

What is the appliance? 

Estragon

Even a range could be a problem (eg timing on a clock from different frequency).

MrM1

I know the SW 4024na 240v inverter does have an advanced setting that allows you to select "European Frequency" enable /disable. This might get you to the 50hz.  But I would think then that would be the only appliance you'd want to run off the SW when set to that setting. 

kakarot

Thanks for the reply.

https://incinolet.com/product/model-tr/

When i received mine is said 230volt 20 amp circuit

I tried with a 220 volt generator of 5kw and it didn't get hot.

I wanted to make sure I don't get the sw4048 if I can't make a 240 circuit.

There's a guy on youtube running this same 230v toilet with sw4048 but i'm not sure if he has the eu version.

mike95490

That's just the boiler heater on the toilet.   But the fan motors may end up overspeeding , depending on how the fans are wired.
with pure sine wave, the only "critical" things are motors and timers.  Transformers are nearly always able to handle 50/60 hz

kakarot

Thanks mike95490

So what does that mean? Should I buy  the sw4048? I'm surprised there's no way to get the 240v out of it. Since it says 120/240v

mvas

kakarot said:

Thanks for the reply.

https://incinolet.com/product/model-tr/

When i received mine is said 230volt 20 amp circuit

I tried with a 220 volt generator of 5kw and it didn't get hot.

I wanted to make sure I don't get the sw4048 if I can't make a 240 circuit.

There's a guy on youtube running this same 230v toilet with sw4048 but i'm not sure if he has the eu version. 

That URL link is for the US / Canadian model, not the EU model.
Do you have the European model?

WHY, did your incinolet not work with the 220 Volt 5kw generator?
Was it a 5kw continuous, or 5kw surge generator?
Was it a 50 Hz generator?
Did you look at the diagnostic lights on the incinolet, after pressing the start button?

mike95490

I don't have incinolet to test, I think you are on your own.    My opinion, if the inverter can meet the spec for the 20A circuit, I suspect the incinolet has minimal motors and heating elements won't care.   So it should work.

But why would the 5kw genset not work?   Can you take the incinolet somewhere and try it with grid power?  Maybe something in the incinolet is defective

littleharbor2

Have you considered getting a cheap (import), 230 50hz inverter to run this one appliance on?  They're all over eBay. Nothing says you cant run more than one inverter off a single battery bank.

mvas

The SW4048 120/240 Inverter ( 3,800 watt continuous ) can only run this one appliance.

I would not buy an inverter until I figured out WHY the incinolet did not operate properly when connected to the 5,000 Watt Generator.
The 240 volt USA model, from your URL link, states the incinolet requires 3,600 watts.
The EU model uses 3,500 watts at 230 volts - probably the exact same heater, just running alt the lower EU voltage

I am beginning to think ... this appliance is rated: 220 - 240 volts and 50hz / 60hz 
An email to incinolet will confirm.

kakarot

@ littleharbor2

I'm far offgrid but this is exactly what I might do. Try a chinese one for cheap.

icarus

Not that anyone asked for my advice, the reviews of the total experience of incinerating toilets are generally not very good.  (And they are big KWH users.  

A number of years ago, during a remote site renovation, the owner wanted to get away from outhouses. We did a bunch of research on all kinds of alternatives, and settled on a couple of different composting toilets.  NONE of them worked as expected in a cool climate.  They only worked marginally well when we ran 1500 watts of heat and fans 8 hours a day to dry and warm the “compost”. This turned into a huge financial as well as logistical burden as the price of fuel 4 6 toilets plus the headache of hauling the fuel and tending the toilets was a disaster.  Now, a number of years on, a new set of owners of the same property want me to...build new outhouses!

I have used a pit outhouse on my island location since forever.  Every ten years, I let one go fallow for a year, dig out the pit, (which is clean as a whistle in the real world if let fallow) and start over.  Failing that, dig a new hole, move the outhouse 10’ And be done with it.  

That said, outhouses are not without their issues, especially if are on rock like I am.  Finding a place, far enough from the water, with enough soil is tricky, but we have made it work.

Tony

Estragon

How far down do you dig the pit?  I'm also rocky.  The pit will be ~150' from shore, and I'm thinking getting down 3-4' is likely about as far as I'll get.

Planning on buiding a bunkie around it, so moving it 10' would be a pain.  It wouldn't be used much though.

icarus

My pits are 3-5’, as deep as I can get. Not only am I bedrock the boulders, rocks and stones is a challenge.  I drove a 4’ Chunk of rebar down in various places to make sure i could get that deep.  For a outhouse not used ver often, it can be dug out pretty easily with a post hole digger every fuse years...not nearly the nasty chore it sounds like.

150’ from shore is probably far enough assuming you don’t get into lake level water in your pit.  I think the Ontario MNR has some guidelines.  

I’m not sure what you mean by building a bunkie “around it”.  If it is attached to a habitated building I think you will be disappointed as there is some smell, especially in the summer, but only a small amount.

Tony

littleharbor2

icarus said:

be disappointed as there is some smell, especially in the summer, but only a small amount.

Tony

My experience with outhouses, albeit portapotty type, is if you keep the seat and lid closed and have a good 6" vent pipe running through the roof they can be fairly stink free. These are outhouses that would get so much use they had to be pumped twice a week.
 That's a topic I never thought I'd be commenting on this forum about.

mcgivor

When in Rome do what the Romans do, so the saying goes. In Thailand the way they build a septic tank is to use three one meter concrete pipe sections stacked for a total of 1.5 meters deep, there is a concrete cover which has a 1/2" fitting which a breath tube is fitted about 2 meters high for breathing purposes.

Naturally I was skeptical that the volume was enough to handle a single flush toilet with two occupants, but to my surprise it has proven itself over 4 years, never needing a pump truck visit. To promote digestion I do use a digestive enzyme additive every 6 months, which eliminates smell, no paper is used however as the " Bum Gun", or water spray is the preferred method of personal hygiene.

icarus

littleharbor2 said:

icarus said:

be disappointed as there is some smell, especially in the summer, but only a small amount.

Tony

My experience with outhouses, albeit portapotty type, is if you keep the seat and lid closed and have a good 6" vent pipe running through the roof they can be fairly stink free. These are outhouses that would get so much use they had to be pumped twice a week.
 That's a topic I never thought I'd be commenting on this forum about.

Yea...but I don’t think you wish them to be IN the house.  My outhouses have a 6” vent pipe from the pit up through the roof with a whilrrlygig draft inducer.  There is no real smell, but I don’t want one in my house.  That said, the trek to the outhouse at -40 can be an adventure!

My problem with virtually any skeptic system in an environment like mine is the lack of soil for a proper drain field.  With conventional flush toilet systems, you are adding black water to grey, adding a considerable load of water to get rid of.  Effectively separating black from grey water is essential.  My grey water systems are quite rudimentary but very effective.  A simple out fall line from the shower/kitchen, (trying to minimize grease is essential) into an inverted plastic bucket down hill from the house.  The bucket is placed in a small pit dug out, and then filled with coarse sand.  The water dumps into a hole in the bottom of the bucket (which is on the top) and the bucket is placed in the hole on a bed of sand, with sand surrounding the outside fo the bucket.  The bucket serves as a metering device, allowing water in, and then the sand acts as a filter, letting the water out into the soil eventually.  Every few years, I pull the cover off the pit, remove the bucket, and dig out the sand.  (It is only a wheel barrow load or so depending on the size of the pit).  The sand eventually gets clogged with grease, and the water stops flowing into the soil, (or flows much slower).  Once again, not a pleasant chore, but it takes about 1/2 hour.  We have never had a problem with two of us living in the house with the water daylighting, and since it is only greywater the consequences are small if it does.  Keeping the grey from the black, and eschewing flush toilets reduces the net water significantly.

Tony

Estragon

The bunkie will be a 2 story structure, ~12x16'. 

The main floor will be a sort of utility and storage area, possibly with an old woodstove mainly for burning garbage, anf the outhouse.  The outhouse will likely only be used during short winter visits when the cabin water is winterized.  I was going to insulate it, and ventilate the pit, so smell may not be too bad. 

The second floor will be an overflow sleeping area for the odd summer long weekend when kids and their friends decend upon us.

The roof will accomodate a few solar panels, currently on crude lumber mounts, which I use mainly to float the batteries over the winter.

Handling black and grey water does make sense.  The cabin is combined, and is causing a problem, but will start a new thread on that.  The bunkie might get a solar heated outdoor shower, which would use some sort of separate greywater pit.

icarus

Beware of using roof mounted PV in your neck of the woods for float...as we discussed on the other thread, unless you are going to shovel them regularly, they won’t produce for much of the winter.  Consider a couple of panels mounted on the wall for float, maybe with a separate string/controller.

Are you in the neighborhood year round, or only in the summer?

T

Estragon

Yeah, will have to come up with something pretty much guaranteed to stay clear.  Maybe something like a 3rd floor wall on the south side.  Maybe a gazebo/lookout sort of thing, as the view from up there should be pretty nice.

Mostly here in the summer.  I do try to come out in the winter as well, but not full-time.  One of these years I'm going to have a go at clearing a trail in through the bush so I can get here even when the ice is bad or slushy.

kakarot

Hello guys,

I finally got a 230v inverter/charger from China.

Do you guys think 10 AGM 100AH batteries is enough to run the toilet? 

The toilet is rated at 3kwh

This toilet is for use at a rental treehouse on an isolated island.

Estragon

I assume that's 3kwh/day (not 3kw running)?

If so, and further assuming 100ah@12v batteries, that's 12kwh total storage, 6kwh usable.  At 3kwh/day (ignoring losses), that would give you ~2 days autonomy.

What is the DC operating voltage of the inverter (eg. 48v)?

kakarot

The system will be 48v, the inverter is a 5kw 48v.  Maybe with 6 AGM batteries? each at 100 ah.

600Ah x48v = 28,800kwh /2 {usable energy}= 14,400kwh -30% of lost =10,080kwh

Can this  3kw incinerating toilet work with 10,080 kwh?

mcgivor

kakarot said:

The system will be 48v, the inverter is a 5kw 48v.  Maybe with 6 AGM batteries? each at 100 ah.

600Ah x48v = 28,800kwh /2 {usable energy}= 14,400kwh -30% of lost =10,080kwh

Can this  3kw incinerating toilet work with 10,080 kwh?

The batteries would have to be 48V 100Ah  to achieve 600Ah @ 48V, the only way 6 batteries would fit is if they were 8V each, I'm a little cofused by the explanation.

kakarot

mcgivor said:

kakarot said:

The system will be 48v, the inverter is a 5kw 48v.  Maybe with 6 AGM batteries? each at 100 ah.

600Ah x48v = 28,800kwh /2 {usable energy}= 14,400kwh -30% of lost =10,080kwh

Can this  3kw incinerating toilet work with 10,080 kwh?

The batteries would have to be 48V 100Ah  to achieve 600Ah @ 48V, the only way 6 batteries would fit is if they were 8V each, I'm a little cofused by the explanation.

Oops, this was a mistake.

Right now I have 2x 100Ah  in series to get me 24v

But I plan to ad 6 more batteries, each battery is 12v and 100Ah just so my guests can use the toilet.

Can I use the toilet 3hrs a day with 8 batteries  (100Ah each) at 24v  or 48v

What can I do to use the 3kwh toilet?

Really, thanks in advance guys.

Estragon

8 x 100ah@12v batteries would give you 2 series strings of 4 in parallel, which would be a bank of 200ah@48v.  200 x 48v = 9600wh x 50% usable = 4800wh.

Assuming a 3000wh/day AC load via 85% efficient inverter, 3000÷.85=3529wh/day.  That would be roughly a little over a day of autonomy.  I'm not sure what you mean by using it 3hrs/day though, does the 3000wh/day assume a different duty cycle?

kakarot

@Estragon thanks for following up,  This toilet will be used by 3 people once a day, until i can get more batteries or lithium.

How many 12v batteries would you get if it was you?

https://incinolet.com/product/model-tr/

Estragon

I think you mentioned a 5kw generator.  Is it to be run daily to charge?  Are there other means of charging?

mike95490

Are there any trees around  ?  ( for the men ) boiling water away is a hugely inefficient way to use solar power

kakarot

Estragon said:

I think you mentioned a 5kw generator.  Is it to be run daily to charge?  Are there other means of charging?

No I got 4kw worth of panels ( 8 x 500 watts)  for charging the batteries.