Storage for Distilled Water

AkoAko Registered Users Posts: 119 ✭✭
edited October 2018 in Old Battery Tech Discussions #1
Having read several articles by manufactures of Distilled water its become clear that it should only be stored in either sealed Glass , Stainless Steel or plastic containers that are either PEP or HTPA grade ( the number shown inside the rectangular recycle logo should be 1 or 2 respectively ) as they are safe for storing anything to be consumed by humans or for medical and scientific use .

My question now is having obtained a plastic container of the correct composition how do i clean it so that im not left with any residue that could end up in the batteries . The container previously contained a floor cleaner , some type of detergent similar to washing up liquid and i would feel happier if i could do more then just rinse it with tap water until clean . Whatever i use theres the likelihood that residue will be left even when dry so im considering using Battery acid , the theory is that it would neutralise's any other residue and any minuscule traces of the acid left left would be harmless to my batteries .

Any opinions on that or other suggestions would be very welcome .
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  • mcgivormcgivor Solar Expert Posts: 3,424 ✭✭✭✭✭
    #2
    Try aquiring a 20 L water dispenser bottle, they can be purchased new, therefore no residual chemicals to deal with, one would think.
    1500W, 6× Schutten 250W Poly panels , Schneider MPPT 60 150 CC, Schneider SW 2524 inverter, 400Ah LFP 24V nominal battery bank 
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  • mike95490mike95490 Solar Expert Posts: 8,799 ✭✭✭✭✭
    #3
    Rinse with water, then ammonia, then water again. After you can't smell any residue, you could try an acid rinse, and then where do you dump the acid ?
    Powerfab top of pole PV mount | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
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  • BB.BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 30,625 admin
    #4
    Plastics are (in general) highly permeable (gases and liquids penetrate the plastics themselves). Any "caustic" materials stored in a plastic container, I would not use for distilled water. I would fear that the original chemicals will leach back into the distilled water.

    Use old distilled/drinking water containers, or get a water storage/dispenser from the camping supplies store.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
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  • softdownsoftdown Solar Expert Posts: 3,196 ✭✭✭✭
    #5
    Like BB said, it is tough to properly rinse plastic. I've had very mixed results rinsing dozens of empty milk jugs and would not even try for anything more than storing water as weight or stopping bullets. I can't hardly visualize something cheaper than distilled water at Walmart etc. for less than $1/gallon. Though that could very easily have changed. 
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  • AGBAGB Registered Users Posts: 28 ✭✭
    #6
    How long can you store distilled water for battery use? I have new batteries (L16) and they are only 3 months old. water level is still normal so I don't even know how much water will be needed to top up but I have distilled water on standby in an old plastic container.
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  • AkoAko Registered Users Posts: 119 ✭✭
    #7
    Apart from using either glass or stainless steel its best to keep distilled water in a plastic container marked either  PEP or HTPA and with a sealed lid and preferably in the dark .
    1050 Watt 24v Array . BP and Atersa 72 cell Panels 
    Morningstar TS-60 Charge Controler
    4 x 6v 605 Apm/Hr Rolls S-605 Batteries
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  • BB.BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 30,625 admin
    #8
    A quick and dirty water test is TDS (total dissolved solids) meter. They are cheap and fast. For example (know nothing about this meter):

    https://www.amazon.com/HM-Digital-TDS-EZ-Measurement-Resolution/dp/B002C0A7ZY

    Technically a TDS meter measures the conductivity of the water. Close enough for our day to day water quality test needs.

    Trojan battery manual has a nice list of contaminants:

    https://www.trojanbattery.com/pdf/TrojanBattery_UsersGuide.pdf

    Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
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  • softdownsoftdown Solar Expert Posts: 3,196 ✭✭✭✭
    #9
    Not sure but I have not seen warnings that distilled water "expires in 18 months" or so. Water last for millions of years, my only concern is degradation of the plastic jug the water is packaged in. Contamination would be chemical rather than mechanical  - via minerals called "dissolved solids". I'm planning to use my large collection of distilled water jugs until they run out. 

    Many plastics leach estrogen like chemicals. I don't believe that is highly acidic or base or conductive or non-conductive. Could be wrong of course. I'd rather have old water than no water. Old water than mineral laden water. It would be somewhat challenging to make your own distilled water should we lose the supply.
    First Bank:16 180 watt Grape Solar with  FM80 controller and 3648 Inverter....Fullriver 8D AGM solar batteries. Second Bank/MacGyver Special: 10 165(?) watt BP Solar with Renogy MPPT 40A controller/ and Xantrex C-35 PWM controller/ and Morningstar PWM controller...Cotek 24V PSW inverter....forklift and diesel locomotive batteries
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  • BB.BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 30,625 admin
    #10
    Keep the plastic containers in dark to prevent UV breakdown from sunlight.

    Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
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  • mcgivormcgivor Solar Expert Posts: 3,424 ✭✭✭✭✭
    #11
    Just buy as needed, why venture into the quandary of what if, and or how, it's just water, it's not expensive why store it ? It comes in 6 packs of 1 liter bottles at the supermarket for a dollar or so where I'm located, I just pick up one each visit....... as long as lead acid is in my inventory, which is not for long, its a prehistoric technology.
    1500W, 6× Schutten 250W Poly panels , Schneider MPPT 60 150 CC, Schneider SW 2524 inverter, 400Ah LFP 24V nominal battery bank 
    Second system 1890W  3 × 300W No name brand poly, 3×330 Sunsolar Poly panels, Morningstar TS 60 PWM controller, no name 2000W inverter 400Ah FLA 24V nominal used for water pumping and day time air conditioning.  
    5Kw Yanmar clone single cylinder air cooled diesel generator for rare emergency charging and welding.
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  • AkoAko Registered Users Posts: 119 ✭✭
    edited October 2018 #12
    Ideal conditions would be to keep it cool and in the dark to avoid Algal forming and sealed to avoid the water absorbing CO2 .

    https://www.buydistilledwater.co.uk/distilled-water/13-distilled-water-storage-how-should-distilled-water-be-stored

    https://www.thedistilledwatercompany.com/how-to-store-your-distilled-water-correctly
    1050 Watt 24v Array . BP and Atersa 72 cell Panels 
    Morningstar TS-60 Charge Controler
    4 x 6v 605 Apm/Hr Rolls S-605 Batteries
    Solener 1500w Pure Sinewave Inverter
    Studer 400 Watt Pure Sinewave Inverter
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  • softdownsoftdown Solar Expert Posts: 3,196 ✭✭✭✭
    #13
    Algae will not form in water that is free of nutrients. If algae grows in distilled water, it is not distilled water.

    Why store it? If the SHTF a lack of water would kill one faster than almost anything else. I'd say it is likely the #1 item that should be stocked and stored. If the SHTF the "infrastructure" could easily be told that distilled water is not a super high priority to get re-energized.
    First Bank:16 180 watt Grape Solar with  FM80 controller and 3648 Inverter....Fullriver 8D AGM solar batteries. Second Bank/MacGyver Special: 10 165(?) watt BP Solar with Renogy MPPT 40A controller/ and Xantrex C-35 PWM controller/ and Morningstar PWM controller...Cotek 24V PSW inverter....forklift and diesel locomotive batteries
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  • WaterWheelWaterWheel Registered Users Posts: 337 ✭✭✭
    #14
    I just buy and keep the water in the plastic 1 gallon "milk jug" container it comes in from the grocery store (89 cents per gallon jug).  It holds fine if it doesn't freeze.

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  • softdownsoftdown Solar Expert Posts: 3,196 ✭✭✭✭
    #15
    WaterWheel said:
    I just buy and keep the water in the plastic 1 gallon "milk jug" container it comes in from the grocery store (89 cents per gallon jug).  It holds fine if it doesn't freeze.
    The inlays found on most gallon milk jugs are designed to allow for the expansion of freezing. I always freeze my milk, I have frozen water for a trip. Keeps the cooler cool. 

    Why do I freeze milk? I buy supplies in town every two weeks. Also like to have a months worth of supplies.

    For those in hurricane country - good idea to keep some frozen water or milk. You can then use it to keep a good cooler cool for maybe a week if the power goes out.
    First Bank:16 180 watt Grape Solar with  FM80 controller and 3648 Inverter....Fullriver 8D AGM solar batteries. Second Bank/MacGyver Special: 10 165(?) watt BP Solar with Renogy MPPT 40A controller/ and Xantrex C-35 PWM controller/ and Morningstar PWM controller...Cotek 24V PSW inverter....forklift and diesel locomotive batteries
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  • petertearaipetertearai Solar Expert Posts: 439 ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 2018 #16
    just replaced my rolls solar600 batterys  . 8 years old  .... had rain water all their life . Water from roof to bottom tank . then pumped to top tank. Top tank gravity feeds house . Figured that the water had 2 opportunitys to drop out solids . so pretty clean ..
    Is distilled water realy that important ?

    2225 wattts pv . Outback 2kw  fxr pure sine inverter . fm80 charge controller . Mate 3. victron battery monitor . 24 volts  in 2 volt Shoto lead carbon extreme batterys. off grid  holiday home 
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  • BB.BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 30,625 admin
    #17
    Check my post #8 above. The Trojan manual list various contaminants and the minimum acceptable levels (some are parts per million levels).

    And get a Cheap TDS meter and see how your train water is doing.

    Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
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  • Dave AngeliniDave Angelini Solar Expert Posts: 5,214 ✭✭✭✭✭
    #18
    petertearai said:
    just replaced my rolls solar600 batterys  . * years old  .... had rain water all their life . Water from roof to bottom tank . then pumped to top tank. Top tank gravity feeds house . Figured that the water had 2 opportunitys to drop out solids . so pretty clean ..
    Is distilled water realy that important ?

    Getting close to 40 years of using rainwater in batteries. Up in the mountains above the silicon valley I was taught that from a senior engineer at HP. I still have a few L16's that are over 15 years old in light cycling for yard lights.
    "we go where power lines don't" Sierra Mountains near Mariposa/Yosemite CA
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  • softdownsoftdown Solar Expert Posts: 3,196 ✭✭✭✭
    #19
    Likely depends on the rainwater which has a couple opportunities for contamination.
    1)Heavily industrialized or automobile populated areas will generally deliver acid rain. 
    2) Dry and dusty environments may deliver rain with a lot of atmospheric particles trapped in it.

    It would appear that may be OK in some areas. It is likely that the solid minerals in our ground water are to be avoided. Measurable as TDS (total dissolved solids) with an affordable meter. A meter that likely has a limited life.

    What comprises TDS? Some of the more common are calcium. magnesium, sodium, and iron. One gets a good idea by letting a glass of water evaporate. The white residue is the dissolved solids, or minerals, present in your water supply. West Texas, for example, is famous for supplying "liquid rock". I think the TDS were at least 750ppm in Midland, TX. A pretty high number.
    First Bank:16 180 watt Grape Solar with  FM80 controller and 3648 Inverter....Fullriver 8D AGM solar batteries. Second Bank/MacGyver Special: 10 165(?) watt BP Solar with Renogy MPPT 40A controller/ and Xantrex C-35 PWM controller/ and Morningstar PWM controller...Cotek 24V PSW inverter....forklift and diesel locomotive batteries
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  • BB.BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 30,625 admin
    #20
    Do things like not harvesting the rainwater until the roof has been "washed clean" by the initial rain, filtering out leaves/sticks, etc... all helps.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
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  • petertearaipetertearai Solar Expert Posts: 439 ✭✭✭✭
    #21
    ahh 8 years old  not * years old .. gone sealed this time  so , different worries now . yes  a total dissolved meter would have been on my list if i had gone flooded again ..
    2225 wattts pv . Outback 2kw  fxr pure sine inverter . fm80 charge controller . Mate 3. victron battery monitor . 24 volts  in 2 volt Shoto lead carbon extreme batterys. off grid  holiday home 
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  • TecnodaveTecnodave Registered Users Posts: 418 ✭✭✭✭
    #22

    I use distilled waters to manufacture colloidal silver 10 ppm. solution for medical uses. Many brands leave a black residue on my 4-9 silver electrodes (.9999% purity). Arrowhead Puritas distilled water does not. I do not know what they are doing in their distilled process but it does make a difference in this application. I do know that FLA battries do not like impurities in the electrolyte. Arrowhead Puritas is competively priced with the others so I only buy, use and store Arrowhead Puritas Waters. I store in a cool dark place and sometimes have 10 gallons on hand. This was an accidental discovery and may not even relate to batteries. I have no stake or interest in Arrowhead.

    David

    2 Classic 150, 2 Kid, 5 arrays 7.5 kw total  2ea.  2S6P Sharp NE-170/NE-165, 1ea. 12P Sanyo HIT 200,  2ea. 4/6P Sanyo HIT 200, MagnaSine MS4024AE, Exeltech XP-1100,  2 Banks L-16 battery, Rolls-Surette S-530 and Interstate Traction, Shunts with whizbangJr and Bogart Tri-Metric, iCharger i208B  dc-dc buck/boost converter with BMS for small form lithium 8S 16650 or LiFePO4,
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  • JohannJohann Solar Expert Posts: 244 ✭✭✭
    #23
    softdown said:
    Not sure but I have not seen warnings that distilled water "expires in 18 months" or so. Water last for millions of years, my only concern is degradation of the plastic jug the water is packaged in. Contamination would be chemical rather than mechanical  - via minerals called "dissolved solids". I'm planning to use my large collection of distilled water jugs until they run out. 

    Many plastics leach estrogen like chemicals. I don't believe that is highly acidic or base or conductive or non-conductive. Could be wrong of course. I'd rather have old water than no water. Old water than mineral laden water. It would be somewhat challenging to make your own distilled water should we lose the supply.

    I am not selling anything....
    This is what we use at work and Amazon and other places are selling the cartridge.  The cartridge is good for 600 gallons per manufacturer. We get about 1200 gallons out of them but we use a whole house filter first and we use 20 lbs of water pressure which we found out that a lower pressure will get us more gallons.
    We use it for our batteries and also for some chemicals that we make for cloth.
    The cartridge has a 1 year storage live and we found that our supplier ( Crown , a pallet jack place)  put a sticker over the original date which was a difference of 3 month.

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