Wildfires are nice for Solar Business

Last night was the first time (I think) that power was cut to avoid wildfires out west. Everyone I talk to wants a battery these days. Pretty crazy but here is the link.

https://www.utilitydive.com/news/in-a-first-pge-cuts-power-to-60000-to-prevent-wildfires-during-wind-stor/539680/
"we go where power lines don't" Sierra Mountains near Mariposa/Yosemite CA
 http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
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Comments

  • mike95490mike95490 Posts: 7,970Solar Expert ✭✭✭✭
    yeah, and for 2 years, we've been trying to get a backup generator for our community LP-FM station (KLLG), this AM, generator prices are through the roof, if any are to be found.
    Powerfab top of pole PV mount | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
    || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
    || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

    solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
    gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister ,

  • Dave AngeliniDave Angelini Posts: 4,106Solar Expert ✭✭✭✭
    Our LPFM is on the hospital circuit so we can listen to KRYZ 98.5mhz. Even when they cut power to the town the hospital genset comes on and keeps the sheriff and fire folks powered up. 

    I just got this e-mail from my supplier.

    Yesterday half of PGE's customers got warned their power was going to be turned off at any moment, due to High winds and high fire conditions. 

    Will see this ongoing message as a lot more as PGE now has to warn their customers due to the recently lawsuits and fires started by down power lines.

    What can you do to help keep the lights for your customers is a LG Chem Battery Wall.  In Stock now

    You will need these items below and a critical Load sub panel.  The back up loads are 5KW Output to backup loads and 10kwh Energy storage.   It will keep the lights on and the Refrig on during these blackouts.

    "we go where power lines don't" Sierra Mountains near Mariposa/Yosemite CA
     http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
    E-mail [email protected]

  • Dave AngeliniDave Angelini Posts: 4,106Solar Expert ✭✭✭✭
    I heard that some people who had preventative power cuts will not get power on for a few days. It is not just flipping a switch to turn it on.
    The lines need to be inspected.

    Sounds like a good way/ploy to release more liability for many of the fires that were caused by the utility. Big lawsuits.
    "we go where power lines don't" Sierra Mountains near Mariposa/Yosemite CA
     http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
    E-mail [email protected]

  • southforksouthfork Posts: 28Registered Users ✭✭
    I'm on the Georgetown Divide El Dorado Co power still out maybe latter today . PGE flying the lines this morning I run the generator a few hours and my water tanks are full I have gravity flow to house so things are good .   
     24 solar world 285 watt panels with 24 Enphase 250 s ground mount grid tied .                                                                
  • Dave AngeliniDave Angelini Posts: 4,106Solar Expert ✭✭✭✭
    We see the HV lines for Yosemite out 20 miles. No need to fly them as it all burned out there and they are all brand new :)
    Nice to have gravity for water. Another reason to love the mountains and hills. We have master gardener buddies in El Dorado.
    "we go where power lines don't" Sierra Mountains near Mariposa/Yosemite CA
     http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
    E-mail [email protected]

  • mike95490mike95490 Posts: 7,970Solar Expert ✭✭✭✭
    The CAMP fire near Chico is sending smoke my way, both arrays shut down at 2:30 pm today  We are 90+ miles away !!

    Welcome to Willits. No filter. Taken at 3:30pm. No sun, cold to the bone. Black skies due to smoke 

    Powerfab top of pole PV mount | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
    || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
    || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

    solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
    gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister ,

  • petertearaipetertearai Posts: 356Solar Expert ✭✭✭
    amazing photo , sorry to see .
    2225 wattts pv . Outback 2kw  fxr pure sine inverter . fm80 charge controller . victron battery monitor . 24 volts 450 ah surette batterys . off grid  holiday home 
  • BB.BB. Posts: 28,088Super Moderators, Administrators admin
    Apparently, it wiped out the town of Paradise California (26,000 people) in a day (fire went from zero to ~24 square miles in 1/2 a day).

    https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/ncna934086

    In the SF Bay Area, we have some smoke and haze too... The high winds are supposed to die down by tomorrow morning.

    Very sad.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • mike95490mike95490 Posts: 7,970Solar Expert ✭✭✭✭
    McD's in Paradise,  pics taken by fire crew in the morning, and then in the afternoon.  8 Nov 2018   No Fries tonight


    Powerfab top of pole PV mount | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
    || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
    || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

    solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
    gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister ,

  • mcnutt13579mcnutt13579 Posts: 55Registered Users ✭✭
    mike95490 said:
    McD's in Paradise,  pics taken by fire crew in the morning, and then in the afternoon.  8 Nov 2018   No Fries tonight



    That is billowing smoke in the background of picture #1 also, there were no clouds around here yesterday.
  • Dave AngeliniDave Angelini Posts: 4,106Solar Expert ✭✭✭✭
    Same thing going on down south in Ventura. Santa Anna and the Devil winds both on steroids. Yuk!
    "we go where power lines don't" Sierra Mountains near Mariposa/Yosemite CA
     http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
    E-mail [email protected]

  • softdownsoftdown Posts: 1,928Solar Expert ✭✭✭✭
    Have California fires ever been this bad? 
    First Bank:16 180 watt Grape Solar with  FM80 controller and 3648 Inverter....Fullriver 8D AGM solar batteries. Second Bank/MacGyver Special: 10 165(?) watt BP Solar with Renogy MPPT 40A controller/ and Xantrex C-35 PWM controller/ and Morningstar PWM controller...Cotek 24V PSW inverter....forklift and diesel locomotive batteries
  • BB.BB. Posts: 28,088Super Moderators, Administrators admin
    edited November 11 #14
    Last year was not good.

    And as more people build out into rural areas (more land per house, less services, lots of valleys and hills, governments telling you what trees you have to keep next to your home, and architects building homes around landmark trees, etc.)... You are going to see more of this.

    California has always been a land of extremes. Since the last ice age, the worst drought was something like 300 years (thousands of years ago).

    Geologically our current climate is about average or a little on the wet side.

    This will not end well... (Major climate changes have happened over a decade. Does not take centuries for these shifts to happen).

    Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • softdownsoftdown Posts: 1,928Solar Expert ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 12 #15
    Speaking of government, the policy of not allowing the removal of fallen trees fall can be catastrophic. 

    I have no wildfire risk here. Still moving the woodpile further away from house. Stuff happens. A friend was one of the few who didn't lose his Forbes Park home in Colorado's second largest fire. He had cleared 50'. Another friend helped clear another lot and that home also survived in spite of not achieving 50' of clearance. 

    Not trying to be political here. Just illustrating what a lack of real world planning may contribute to.

    <reduce the overtly political in this thread... My fault too. -Bill B.>
    First Bank:16 180 watt Grape Solar with  FM80 controller and 3648 Inverter....Fullriver 8D AGM solar batteries. Second Bank/MacGyver Special: 10 165(?) watt BP Solar with Renogy MPPT 40A controller/ and Xantrex C-35 PWM controller/ and Morningstar PWM controller...Cotek 24V PSW inverter....forklift and diesel locomotive batteries
  • Dave AngeliniDave Angelini Posts: 4,106Solar Expert ✭✭✭✭
    I would appreciate keeping the polarizing politics out of a thread that I started.  Please start your own.

    Minimum rural fire clearance in this state is 100'. If there is a slope it can double or triple. All trees limbed up 15 feet. This is not new for someone who likes their home standing.

    There is plenty of blame to go around along with as Bill said just climate change that has been going on for centuries. Federal forestry policy and logging are current favorites along with conservatives not making any waves. One of the reasons there has been efforts to divide the state is the really bad water policy. Other western states also have water problems.

    In the national park up the road from here, there are tree samples that show these climate changes for thousands of years before man invented the wheel.

    I think happy hour will start early today :)


    "we go where power lines don't" Sierra Mountains near Mariposa/Yosemite CA
     http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
    E-mail [email protected]

  • mike95490mike95490 Posts: 7,970Solar Expert ✭✭✭✭
    Downtown Paradise (2018) and Santa Rosa (2017) are not rural areas.  fires were fanned by high winds  burning one house into the next 2 and so on.   In the Santa Rosa fires, there were green trees and plantings surrounded by burnt houses and cars.  
    A cascade of conditions contributed to the fires, with many complex factors.
    Powerfab top of pole PV mount | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
    || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
    || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

    solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
    gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister ,

  • Dave AngeliniDave Angelini Posts: 4,106Solar Expert ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 12 #18
    For the first time, I heard a Cal Fire captain say this weekend, "there is no way for us to defend against this"
    He was speaking of the wind. Up until recently this was very rarely spoke of.

    I remember sailing down the California coast in 1993 watching the santa anna's burn to the ocean. Also remember looking up in the Oakland hills in 1991 watching that firestorm. Again, we were on a sailboat out in the bay.

    Big thank-you to the veterans and double that to veteran firefighters B)

    Anyone who wants to help veterans or make a donation to a great cause go to US Vets
    https://www.usvetsinc.org/
    "we go where power lines don't" Sierra Mountains near Mariposa/Yosemite CA
     http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
    E-mail [email protected]

  • softdownsoftdown Posts: 1,928Solar Expert ✭✭✭✭
    Agreed that the picture was overtly political and certainly crossed the line of decency. It was the only thing I could find at the time that addressed, more or less, the issue of forestry management in mitigating out of control wildfires. Perhaps it was right to put it up and equally right to take it down.

    Tried harder to find information and discussion regarding the importance of forestry management in wildfire mitigation. Alas, 100% of my findings were overtly political in one direction or the other. The "match" is over for another year. It is time to put down the political gloves and work on realistic solutions to everyday problems.

    There is almost nothing that man can do when the winds are powerful. At least to my knowledge. I've been a rural firefighter though wildfires are an entirely different beast. We can put on a righteous show but it seems to take rain to put out raging wildfires. We were going to lose the fabled Yellowstone lodge until Mother Nature elected to dump some rain on the inferno that had reached within a couple hundred yards. One can still see just how close we came to losing the historic lodge. To say that we gave everything we had would be an understatement.

    An acquaintance  seems to have achieved a certain degree of wealth from firefighting earnings in 2018. His yard is now literally packed with heavy equipment.  I'm not certain that making firefighting a lucrative business is an entirely great idea. 
    First Bank:16 180 watt Grape Solar with  FM80 controller and 3648 Inverter....Fullriver 8D AGM solar batteries. Second Bank/MacGyver Special: 10 165(?) watt BP Solar with Renogy MPPT 40A controller/ and Xantrex C-35 PWM controller/ and Morningstar PWM controller...Cotek 24V PSW inverter....forklift and diesel locomotive batteries
  • BB.BB. Posts: 28,088Super Moderators, Administrators admin
    Softdown,

    No  Harm, No Foul.

    There are times when we all can use an editor.

    -Bill "moderator" B.
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • firerescue712firerescue712 Posts: 93Solar Expert ✭✭
    These types of fires are impossible for firefighters to battle.  They are also all but impossible for homeowners to fireproof their houses.  In these fires, the winds will carry burning debris for miles.  This winds act as a force that allows this debris to wedge into any crevice the wind can enter.  As the wind blows, it tends to loosen building materials, thus allowing air to enter.  Even an ember as small as a match head will start a fire.  The wind adds oxygen that allows the fire to burn aggressively.  Even here in Arkansas we have fought these type for fire.  Luckily, it is not as extreme in terrain and sustained winds like in the fires out West.   Cutting back vegetation is a huge help, but strong winds overcome this clearing by blowing embers, and often large flames, over this area and into the buildings.  The only thing to do is to make sure all are evacuated and safe.  Once the winds subside, the fire can be attacked from the rear and sides.  This type fire is one of the most dangerous a firefighter can face.  I hope all on here are safe and are not impacted directly from these fires.  Be safe. 

    As for backup power in these situations, it is only as good as the production.  Solar is poor in smoke conditions.  Commercial power often fails.  Wind will be ineffective due to the high winds causing the system to shut down.  Hydro - forget it.  The fire will burn solar panels, which burn fiercely.  The wind turbine will be exposed to high winds/fire damage.  The commercial power lines and poles will also be exposed to the winds and fire.  Generators will stall due to smoke particles clogging the air filter, lack of oxygen near the fire, and hot fire gases being pulled through the air intake.

    Sorry for the long post.  There is no way to prevent Mother Nature from causing damage in extreme conditions.  The best we can do is make sure there is no loss of life.  There are costly ways to minimize damage.  Plan for the worst and hope for the best.  But, be realistic with reality. 

    Dave, I hope this does not appear as a hijack.  I did not mean to do this.  I just wanted to express what I have witnessed over 38 years of fire service.  Again, be safe.
  • Dave AngeliniDave Angelini Posts: 4,106Solar Expert ✭✭✭✭
    Thanks to both of you editors  :) 

    The forest is a mess. The local Indians would leave Yosemite in winter for the warmer valley, as the last group left, they would set it on fire.

    Prescribed burns and firebreaks are a new thing in California. Our Calfire group has just started practicing this year for winter burns. Governor Jerry changed his mind on being against Cal Fire prevention, recently.  :'(

    But we do need winter to start... If not soon, we better be prepared to find more skeletons in burned cars.

    The fires that Mike listed are places in the Red flag zone and those kinds of wind fires in cities are just about impossible to stop.

    It does not mean that rural places can't be made much safer.

     If you look at Paradise CA, you will see that most of the town lived under big Ponderosa pine trees. Alot of my clients use to do that until I start bugging them about getting some real insurance. The Pines have to go out at least 100 feet or more. If you have the other kind of  insurance (paid insurance) you get to go thru that nightmare also.

    Anybody following the Stanley giraffe fire story?

    https://losangeles.cbslocal.com/video/3976391-stanley-the-giraffe-fine-after-woolsey-fire-rips-through-malibu/




    "we go where power lines don't" Sierra Mountains near Mariposa/Yosemite CA
     http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
    E-mail [email protected]

  • mike95490mike95490 Posts: 7,970Solar Expert ✭✭✭✭
    softdown said   .......
    There is almost nothing that man can do when the winds are powerful. At least to my knowledge........
    You can armor your house.    I have hardie board (cement board) siding.  Eves are boxed in with hardie board .   Vents are double screened. Appears 100% normal looking
    Roof was planned to be metal, but we were forced to spend that money on indoor domestic fire sprinklers and separate supply system (120% useless once the house shell starts to burn)

    Only thing left is to get metal panels to cover the windows with, to prevent thermal radiation from igniting the interior.  

    Added with the fuel reduction around the house, and it becomes very defensible.
    Powerfab top of pole PV mount | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
    || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
    || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

    solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
    gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister ,

  • Dave AngeliniDave Angelini Posts: 4,106Solar Expert ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 12 #24
    I don't mind a hijack firerescue712  but as Mike wrote above I think it is defensible and I have done 3 wildfires now at this house.
    We also get to the ones that have burned and I can count on one hand the homes that were hardened and lost. Most were unattended and that was where things snowballed out of control. Two were this summer, very sad losses for them.

    I would not want to live anywhere that had regular Santa Anna's or Devil winds so that fight I can only hope for the best outcome.

    The solar works real well in the fires. You get about 1/2 of normal and that is a design choice. We had 5 firemen downstairs in the garage in August.  A few nights with the AC spilling cold air down for them. We take good care of firefighters here, and they know it :)
    "we go where power lines don't" Sierra Mountains near Mariposa/Yosemite CA
     http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
    E-mail [email protected]

  • softdownsoftdown Posts: 1,928Solar Expert ✭✭✭✭
    Mike, I was referring to firefighting efforts when the winds are heavily on the side of the wildfire. Of course home can readily be made more fire resistant. 

    Seems like I always read about strong winds aiding the worst California fires. I'm not currently aware of mankind extinguishing a truly major western wildfire without an assist from Mother Nature. We just can't replicate rain.
    First Bank:16 180 watt Grape Solar with  FM80 controller and 3648 Inverter....Fullriver 8D AGM solar batteries. Second Bank/MacGyver Special: 10 165(?) watt BP Solar with Renogy MPPT 40A controller/ and Xantrex C-35 PWM controller/ and Morningstar PWM controller...Cotek 24V PSW inverter....forklift and diesel locomotive batteries
  • BB.BB. Posts: 28,088Super Moderators, Administrators admin
    I have been on this ride before (PG&E northern California utility stock stops trading due to California fire):

    https://www.sfgate.com/business/article/California-Utilities-Have-Lost-More-Than-a-Third-13384537.php
    Trading in PG&E Corp. was briefly halted Monday after shares plummeted more than 37 percent. The stock has fallen as much as 48 percent in two days of trading since the Camp Fire broke out north of San Francisco last week.
    Edison International lost more than a third of its value since fires broke out near Los Angeles. For both companies, the declines are among the steepest since power shortages triggered rolling blackouts across the state in 2000-2001 -- a crisis that eventually forced PG&E’s utility subsidiary to file for bankruptcy protection.
    Investors are concerned about utility liabilities associated with the fires. Authorities are investigating electrical equipment as one of several possible causes of the so-called Camp Fire, about 150 miles (240 kilometers) northeast of San Francisco. A PG&E transmission line in the area went offline 15 minutes before the blaze was first reported, and the company reported finding a damaged transmission tower near where investigators say the fire began.
    Edison’s Southern California Edison utility said late Friday a power outage occurred near the suspected starting point of one of the fires near Los Angeles and that a sensor detected a disturbance in its equipment two minutes before the blaze was reported. The company said there had been no determination of origin or cause and that it will cooperate with the investigation.
    The wildfires have destroyed more than 6,700 structures and could cost the state, insurers and homeowners at least $19 billion in damages, according to an estimate by Enki Research.
    PG&E Cutting down too many trees?

    https://www.sacbee.com/latest-news/article219315140.html

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • Dave AngeliniDave Angelini Posts: 4,106Solar Expert ✭✭✭✭
    softdown said:


    Seems like I always read about strong winds aiding the worst California fires. I'm not currently aware of mankind extinguishing a truly major western wildfire without an assist from Mother Nature. We just can't replicate rain.
    Not understanding you?  Major wildfires are extinguished often without rain.  Bulldozers, firepeople, fire equipment, fixed wings and good old time.

    Rain would be nice but?
    "we go where power lines don't" Sierra Mountains near Mariposa/Yosemite CA
     http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
    E-mail [email protected]

  • Dave AngeliniDave Angelini Posts: 4,106Solar Expert ✭✭✭✭
    Bill,

    We are doomed...

    " Save the American River Association and the American River Parkway Coalition and others are fighting to stop PG&E from cutting trees" 

    https://www.sacbee.com/latest-news/article219315140.html   
    "we go where power lines don't" Sierra Mountains near Mariposa/Yosemite CA
     http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
    E-mail [email protected]

  • mike95490mike95490 Posts: 7,970Solar Expert ✭✭✭✭
    These conflagrations were forecast in 2001 :

    https://www.forbes.com/sites/chuckdevore/2018/07/30/californias-devastating-fires-are-man-caused-but-not-in-the-way-they-tell-us
      excerpt: 
    In 2001, George E. Gruell, a wildlife biologist with five decades of experience in California and other Western states, authored the book, “Fire in Sierra Nevada Forests: A Photographic Interpretation of Ecological Change Since 1849.” Gruell’s remarkable effort compared hundreds of landscape photographs from the dawn of photography with photos taken from the same location 100 years later or more. The difference was striking. In the 1850s and 1860s, the typical Sierra landscape was of open fields of grass punctuated by isolated pine stands and a few scattered oak trees. The first branches on the pine trees started about 20 feet up—lower branches having been burned off by low-intensity grassfires. California’s Native American population had for years shaped this landscape with fire to encourage the grasslands and boost the game animal population.....:

    And forest land fires are different then urban/city fires like Redding, Paradise, Santa Rosa, where wind driven flames push the fire 80' into the next house.
    Powerfab top of pole PV mount | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
    || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
    || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

    solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
    gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister ,

  • westbranchwestbranch Posts: 5,103Solar Expert ✭✭✭✭
    Mike, Oh so true anywhere civilized man has 'decided ' that the way to preserve that specific ecological successional stage is 'to protect it' so it will never change...And that is the way we did it to ourselves! 
    This 'save it' concept goes back to the Victorian times  and persists today as we all know... Just look at all the National Parks we have established along the Rockies from BC south through Colorado and more...  They all need controlled fires at the right time of the year to return them to an open sparse Climax ecological stage that is maintained by fire.

    Mike & Dave,  we too, in the museum, have pictures from more than a century ago and diaries of the old settlers stating that in ~ 1920's 'you could drive a Model A truck anywhere' in a very open Douglas-fir forest.  That same stand now, and I have been observing it for 45 years, is a dense mixed stand of old veteran D-firs and lodgepole Pine trees of about 100 years.  We had our eyes opened wide when that 25 miles of near  mature mixed forest was instantly turned into the second largest fire here in BC in 2017... the recipe Mother  Nature used was a long dry spell, dry lightning and winds > 40 mph.  One part of the fire jumped the Fraser river and the 'embers' were blown over 3 miles when that area 'blew up' and jumped multiple fire breaks before getting to the river.  That 'escape' 2 days later was at the N boundary of our city and Evac. orders were delivered to us, house by house

    Apologies for being a bit verbose on this topic, it is a hard pill to swallow...
    I can only wish all those affected people safety at this time as I have 'been there too... and it aint nice.
    Stay as safe as you can

     
    KID #51B  4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM
    CL#29032 FW 2126/ 2073/ 2133 175A E-Panel WBjr, 3 x 4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM 
    Cotek ST1500W 24V Inverter,OmniCharge 3024,
    2 x Cisco WRT54GL i/c DD-WRT Rtr & Bridge,
    Eu3/2/1000i Gens, 1680W & E-Panel/WBjr to come, CL #647 asleep
    West Chilcotin, BC, Canada
  • EstragonEstragon Posts: 2,961Registered Users ✭✭✭✭✭
    Most of our grid power comes from hydro dams 100s of miles north through mostly virgin boreal forest.  The right-of-way is cleared so that short of a tornado picking up trees and flinging them at the line, there's very little chance ordinary wind can blow trees on lines.

    There are lots of fires (1100+ this summer in Ontario alone), but I've never heard of one caused by power lines.
    Off-grid.  
    Main daytime system ~4kw panels into 2xMNClassic150 370ah 48v bank 2xOutback 3548 inverter 120v + 240v autotransformer
    Night system ~1kw panels into 1xMNClassic150 700ah 12v bank morningstar 300w inverter
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