Charger Stops before Charging is complete

MrM1

I think I am doing OK with the box mixing.  I just wanna make sure what I am setting things at, and the results I am getting are what should be expected,  and if not.  Looking for guidance from those who have been there before me to help me figure it out.

MrM1

Does anyone know how to get the SW to Not charge via End Amp,  but rather to use the absorb timer.   This is the part I wish I could work out.  

I can set float to Absorb voltage and it does work ... but then there is no timer.   So there is the risk of over charge. 

mcgivor

The absorption time will override the end amps, which is a better method than increasing float which would be unlimited and overcharging is a possibility.

MrM1

mcgivor said:

The absorption time will override the end amps, which is a better method than increasing float which would be unlimited and overcharging is a possibility.

How exactly does that work?  I have it set to 480 now as an absorb time,  but it stopped after an hour last night .... when the batteries got to 7.2 amps.    What other settings to I need to change?   Lower the time?   

Manual says

Absorption charge is the second stage of battery charging and provides the batteries with a controlled, constant voltage. During this stage, the current drawn by the batteries slowly decreases. When this current falls below 2% of the battery  capacity, or when the configurable Absorb Time expires, the charger switches to the Float or NoFloat stage, depending on the selected charge cycle.

So I guess if its ending at 7.8amps when i have it set at a 50ah battery capacity and it only is taking an hour in absorb to do this that is as good as it gets ... and i will not be able to get a timed absorb out of the SW.   Best I can do is set the Float to the absorb voltage and monitor things, manually turning off the charge when the batteries are full.

Man I really do not like Schneider Gear.

Photowhit

The Schneider is using an internal shunt, I believe, so you could add a 29 watt DC load for every amp lower you would want shut off to happen.... The inverter should think an extra amp which is being used in DC current is actually going into the battery. It really sounds like an outrageous waste...but...

mcgivor

mcgivor said:

The absorption time will override the end amps, which is a better method than increasing float which would be unlimited and overcharging is a possibility.

No I was wrong, it's the other way around, end amps terminates absorbtion time. My bad, seting a lower capacity would effectively reduce the end amps, but 2% is the industry standard to prevent overcharging, a built-in safety if you like, personally I've never experienced any problems with the setting.

mike95490

You might try a 1 day fake-out and change the programmed battery ah to half what you have, cutting the end amp sensor in half, and terminating at 4a

MrM1

I have the Ah faked out already.   Set to 50Ah ... but it terminated at 7.8 amps last night ... just like the night before.   I also set the Bulk Voltage and the Absorb voltage to the same, at 31v.    (up from 30.5v for absorb and 31.5v for bulk the night before.)  Also had the overall charge amps up from 50 to 54 amps.  set the absorb timer to 180 min down from 480 min ... YET unlike the night before where absorb lasted 1 hour.   Last night absorb lasted 30 minutes.   And I never got anywhere near full charge, before the charger kicked out and went to float.   This is with grid power. 

Any suggestions for change would be welcome.  But I am calling Schneider today to see if either 1) the suggest something or 2) perhaps I have some other setting wrong. 

GRRRR.

I can get a full charge .... IF I set the absorb voltage to 31.8.  But all that does is leave the system in bulk longer.  Not bad,  but seems like hi volts to me.  

mcgivor

@MrM1
There must be a reason why the SG is not reaching the 1.277, previous undercharging is the most likely culprit, charging then discharging whilst attempting to restore will be a never ending battle.

mike95490 said:

Not sure who gave you the Bulk and Absorb values.  They should be the same voltage. 

Don't let end amps terminate charge,  BAD  WRONG.   You are killing your batteries, they need to be charged for a couple days, forget end amps, you need several hours of absorb to finish charging them, not an hour.

DISABLE the end amps ,  you are hurting batteries by not charging them fully

Or not.  maybe I'm not telling you what you want to hear, and you want to buy new batteries.

Re @mike95490 comment above, by no means do I attempt to speak for him, but you need to concentrate on one thing, which is the charging of the batteries. This means no loads at any time during the process, eventually the SG will come back up, but this will take days not hours, unless the damage is permanent, but that is unlikely given the observation of improvement seen when you performed an EQ. Placing loads is akin to taking two steps forward and one back. Once everything is back to normal then the end amps make sense, but for now let the Midnite do the job without end amps to break down what sulfation there is during the day, just don't over do the voltage settings.

Estragon

Personally, I'd want to SW to do what it's supposed to do, that is with the settings appropriate for my system (not extraordinarily high charging voltage, fooling it with low ah capacity etc.). Maybe the high voltage is causing or contributing to the problem (by monentarily hitting a high battery cut-off or something). Maybe the low ah capacity affects pulse width or something. There could be some sort of interaction deep in firmware with all these erzatz settings contributing to the problem and/or complicating troubleshooting.

My suggestion is to go back to appropriate real settings, and work with Schneider support to get it working properly.

MrM1

Agreed.  I think I will do a factory reset of the SW and start over and see what happens.

Dave Angelini

I stopped being interested because this and other threads reminded me of bad sailing stories. There is a boat called a motor sailer Estragon.
I am sure you know it and that is what is being done here in my opinion. 
A small motor sailer, like this inverter, really is the worst of both. It does not sail well and it does not motor well.

They are found often on beaches because one of their propulsion source failed and they could not beat the wind.
The CSW is too small for complicated grid support and it was added mainly for people in Australia and Hawaii who had been trained to install and maintain them. An XW is wide enough in power that all of the issues here are much easier to deal with.

Just like a large motor sailer has enough waterline length to beat off that lee shore, with a motor or the wind.

Estragon

@Dave Angelini As someone who has had to beat off a lee shore after a sudden engine failure, I know exactly what you mean about needing the power to get the job done. I was single handed and got the main up enough in stages to get steerage, then progressively higher through each tack. It always amazes me when I see sailboats motoring off a lee shore in a breeze with sails covered and running rigging all tied up.

MrM1

Dave Angelini said:

I stopped being interested because this and other threads reminded me of bad sailing stories. There is a boat called a motor sailer Estragon.
I am sure you know it and that is what is being done here in my opinion. 
A small motor sailer, like this inverter, really is the worst of both. It does not sail well and it does not motor well.

They are found often on beaches because one of their propulsion source failed and they could not beat the wind.
The CSW is too small for complicated grid support and it was added mainly for people in Australia and Hawaii who had been trained to install and maintain them. An XW is wide enough in power that all of the issues here are much easier to deal with.

Just like a large motor sailer has enough waterline length to beat off that lee shore, with a motor or the wind.

So you're saying a charger that is capable of charging at 90 amps is incapable of charging a battery bank that at most requires 54amps at C/8.   Not sure I understand the comparison.

mike95490

MrM1 said:So you're saying a charger that is capable of charging at 90 amps is incapable of charging a battery bank that at most requires 54amps at C/8.   Not sure I understand the comparison.

90A would cook the batteries if it was done often

Estragon

@Dave Angelini knows a whole lot more about Schneider products than I do, but my take on the comparison is that this inverter was designed for a sort of niche application.

A motorsail boat is sort of a hybrid motorboat equipped with some sails that are kinda more decorative than functional. You can have some quiet time in nice conditions and maybe still make some headway off the wind using the sails, but you wouldn't want to count on them if things go sideways. Counting on them to claw your way upwind in a blow off a lee shore is a really bad idea. As a motorboat, it makes design comprimises to accommodate sails, rigging, and leeway which diminish motoring performance. They appeal to a niche market.

The analogy to the inverter may be apt, if a bit extreme.

In any case, you have what you have, and it should be able to do what you want.

MrM1

mike95490 said:

MrM1 said:So you're saying a charger that is capable of charging at 90 amps is incapable of charging a battery bank that at most requires 54amps at C/8.   Not sure I understand the comparison.

90A would cook the batteries if it was done often

Yes I would have thought so,  the SW allows for limiting in the controls.  I have set it to 60% of 90, so the current to my battery bank is 54 amps.

Sorry for the long discussion folks,  I guess to get to the heart of my questioning (regardless of the charger used),  Depending on outside temps,  it seems I have to use about 31v or more to get what I was considering fully charged.   I initially used a temp comp glass hydro and charged to 1.277-80 as best can be read on a glass hydro.  But this was without an initial conditioning EQ of the batteries back in Oct 17 (did not know about that - noob mistake).  So I had no base line. I  Now have a refractometer and Hydro Volt to compare with the glass Hydro.  And all readings are repeatable when each device is used, and with the Hydro Volt, it  reads 5 points lower consistently.  OK so add 5 for each reading when using the Hydro Volt.

I have EQ'd on various occasions and have been able to get most cells up to over 1300 on the Hydro Volt .  

What i am trying to understand:
1. Is that my real fully charged target as I never got a base line ? (answer here has seemed to be yes)

But also, Why do I need these higher absorb volts to actually get there (31v and above)?    Realizing now I probably have been rarely fully charging these batteries over the past 5 months.  (probably fully only 5-10 times), Is the need for higher absorb volts ...

2.  A charger settings or charger issue?  It takes Higher volts for both the SW and the Classic Or
3. The result of Acid Stratification and ultimately the beginnings of battery Sulfation due to under charging.   Does having to run higher charge volts mean the batteries are starting to die?

Thanks
Mike

mcgivor

Many, most or all first battery banks are lost due to chronic undercharging, mainly due to ignorance of what the actual requirements are, and or, an overestimated perception of what the batteries are actually capable of supporting. Personally I made fundemental mistakes, a PWM controller with the wrong panels, this led to problems which yours pale in comparison to, without going into detail, I recalculated my demand, built a mew system to support the loads and got the right panels for the PWM system which was retired to light duty. The retired system is under very little load, about 40Ah of a 260Ah bank, the controller is set at 28.8V bulk and PWM, the batteries were always low on SG before, but over the course of a year, even with the 28.8V settings, the SG is now perfect, in fact they would previously never get to float, now float is almost a daily occurrence. Much of the information which helped me correct the errors made was furnished by members here and for that I'm eternity grateful. Passing on the help is an obligation, which I've attempted, nothing happens fast, unless forced, using force can cause damage, it's a fine line. From my observations you are leaning towards force, expecting results immediately, be patient. As of now I've exhausted my suggestions, if my comments are not valuable to your quest, let me know, I can accept it.

MrM1

mcgivor said:

Many, most or all first battery banks are lost due to chronic undercharging, mainly due to ignorance of what the actual requirements are, and or, an overestimated perception of what the batteries are actually capable of supporting. Personally I made fundemental mistakes, a PWM controller with the wrong panels, this led to problems which yours pale in comparison to, without going into detail, I recalculated my demand, built a mew system to support the loads and got the right panels for the PWM system which was retired to light duty. The retired system is under very little load, about 40Ah of a 260Ah bank, the controller is set at 28.8V bulk and PWM, the batteries were always low on SG before, but over the course of a year, even with the 28.8V settings, the SG is now perfect, in fact they would previously never get to float, now float is almost a daily occurrence. Much of the information which helped me correct the errors made was furnished by members here and for that I'm eternity grateful. Passing on the help is an obligation, which I've attempted, nothing happens fast, unless forced, using force can cause damage, it's a fine line. From my observations you are leaning towards force, expecting results immediately, be patient. As of now I've exhausted my suggestions, if my comments are not valuable to your quest, let me know, I can accept it.

Thanks for your help.  Will slow down.  

Hope I am not under sized.
- Battery bank: 435Ah x 4 24v
- Array: 2565 watts / 9x285 watt panels 3x3
- Classic 150 CC
- SW 4024 inverter
- Daily loads: 3200 Wh /day

mcgivor

MrM1 said:

mcgivor said:

Many, most or all first battery banks are lost due to chronic undercharging, mainly due to ignorance of what the actual requirements are, and or, an overestimated perception of what the batteries are actually capable of supporting. Personally I made fundemental mistakes, a PWM controller with the wrong panels, this led to problems which yours pale in comparison to, without going into detail, I recalculated my demand, built a mew system to support the loads and got the right panels for the PWM system which was retired to light duty. The retired system is under very little load, about 40Ah of a 260Ah bank, the controller is set at 28.8V bulk and PWM, the batteries were always low on SG before, but over the course of a year, even with the 28.8V settings, the SG is now perfect, in fact they would previously never get to float, now float is almost a daily occurrence. Much of the information which helped me correct the errors made was furnished by members here and for that I'm eternity grateful. Passing on the help is an obligation, which I've attempted, nothing happens fast, unless forced, using force can cause damage, it's a fine line. From my observations you are leaning towards force, expecting results immediately, be patient. As of now I've exhausted my suggestions, if my comments are not valuable to your quest, let me know, I can accept it.

Thanks for your help.  Will slow down.  

Hope I am not under sized.
- Battery bank: 435Ah x 4 24v
- Array: 2565 watts / 9x285 watt panels 3x3
- Classic 150 CC
- SW 4024 inverter
- Daily loads: 3200 watts

Watts alone is not a measure of consumption by itself, there needs to be a time attached, 3200W for 1 hour is 3200Wh or 3.2Kw for example.

MrM1

mcgivor said:

MrM1 said:

mcgivor said:

Many, most or all first battery banks are lost due to chronic undercharging, mainly due to ignorance of what the actual requirements are, and or, an overestimated perception of what the batteries are actually capable of supporting. Personally I made fundemental mistakes, a PWM controller with the wrong panels, this led to problems which yours pale in comparison to, without going into detail, I recalculated my demand, built a mew system to support the loads and got the right panels for the PWM system which was retired to light duty. The retired system is under very little load, about 40Ah of a 260Ah bank, the controller is set at 28.8V bulk and PWM, the batteries were always low on SG before, but over the course of a year, even with the 28.8V settings, the SG is now perfect, in fact they would previously never get to float, now float is almost a daily occurrence. Much of the information which helped me correct the errors made was furnished by members here and for that I'm eternity grateful. Passing on the help is an obligation, which I've attempted, nothing happens fast, unless forced, using force can cause damage, it's a fine line. From my observations you are leaning towards force, expecting results immediately, be patient. As of now I've exhausted my suggestions, if my comments are not valuable to your quest, let me know, I can accept it.

Thanks for your help.  Will slow down.  

Hope I am not under sized.
- Battery bank: 435Ah x 4 24v
- Array: 2565 watts / 9x285 watt panels 3x3
- Classic 150 CC
- SW 4024 inverter
- Daily loads: 3200 watts

Watts alone is not a measure of consumption by itself, there needs to be a time attached, 3200W for 1 hour is 3200Wh or 3.2Kw for example.

you are correct.  Corrected.  I missed that.   It is Watt hours

mcgivor

 3.2Kw Is this what is taken from the batteries without solar input ?

MrM1

mcgivor said:

 3.2Kw Is this what is taken from the batteries without solar input ?

That is the amount I can divert to the system if the grid is down.   Includes a well pump that I I do not run on solar unless the grid is down.  The Well pump consumes about .7Kw Hrs per day on average. It was tested over about 5 days for that average.  So on most days I have about a 2.5 Kw hr need.  If it is not a sunny day,  I go to grid power and charge.  But 3.2 Kw hrs would be a DOD of 30% to my batteries. 

My array is capable of producing upwards of 12.6 Kw Hrs per day.  That is not on paper,  that is what I got on day in early March.

mcgivor

Your array seems more than capable of the task at hand, just don't discharge for a while, you have the luxury of the grid, use it, the SG should rebound given time.