Chinese Li-ion batteries for RV

Shadowcatcher

Some one on the Teardrop &Tiny Travel Trailer forum asked if any one had experience with Chinese Li-ion batteries. Smaller less weight... The question is this  https://dmdinverter.en.alibaba.com/product/60536302549-804800430/Deep_cycles_2000_times_ultra_light_ultra_thin_12v_lithium_panel_energy_storage_solar_battery_200ah.html?spm=a2700.8304367.0.0.bJQ9DU A real life possibility and what are the down sides.

mike95490

Shadowcatcher said:

Some one on the Teardrop &Tiny Travel Trailer forum asked if any one had experience with Chinese Li-ion batteries. Smaller less weight... The question is this  https://dmdinverter.en.alibaba.com/product/60536302549-804800430/Deep_cycles_2000_times_ultra_light_ultra_thin_12v_lithium_panel_energy_storage_solar_battery_200ah.html?spm=a2700.8304367.0.0.bJQ9DU A real life possibility and what are the down sides.

Warranty claims ?

Which "Li" formula ?  LiPo4 (LFP) seems to be the safest (least fire) pack compared to others. But still burns well..

getting mismatched batteries that reduce your expected pack capacity by 20% ?

mike95490

NO !!

pic from your link These are possibly "re-claimed", re-wrapped batteries from failed laptops

 (and I don't trust their -20C temp spec)  (I don't trust the different shades of heat shrink wrap)

Way too many contact points - just 1 bad one can ruin your day

http://laserpointerforums.com/f67/fake-ultrafire-18650-s-72833.html
https://batterybro.com/blogs/18650-wholesale-battery-reviews/104619270-can-you-identify-the-fake-lg-hg2-18650-battery

Shadowcatcher

There are other Chinese manufacturers, thanks for the potential problem.
 

Horsefly

Shadowcatcher said:

There are other Chinese manufacturers, thanks for the potential problem.
 

I think the point from @mike95490 is making is that the specific chemistry of the cells is pretty important. The chemistry that is used in laptops and the like (most of the recycled chinese cells as far as I can tell) have an electrolyte that is much more combustive. It isn't which chinese manufacture you get them from, it is the chemical composition of the cells.

Having said that, I'm only a very interested observer of all the Li Ion battery technology. However there are several *REAL* experts here and you should probably pay some attention to them.

Raj174

@Shadowcatcher
There are a lot of RV's that use Lithium Iron Phosphate (LFP) batteries. There are basically 2 types. There are manufactured 12 volt packs, usually 100 amp hour, but they can be installed in parallel for more amp hours.
https://www.solar-electric.com/battle-born-bb10012-100ah-12v-lithium-battery.html

Then there are the large prismatic LFP cells that range from 20AH up to 1000AH.  These cells can be purchased in custom built packs with a BMS or they can be top balanced and installed as a DIY battery bank. Proper balancing and charging procedures need to be carefully followed with a DIY bank.
Here's a link to this type cell.
http://www.electriccarpartscompany.com/Prismatic-Lithium-Batteries_c_1.html

Rick   

PNjunction

Most of the serious guys in the past eschew the use of "drop-in" replacements, and go for KISS with large prismatics.  But to each his own.  Note that some manufacturers may warn against doing any sort of series-parallel arrangements.  Mostly because trying to keep disparate drop-in cells balanced amongst themselves can be an issue.

Sadly, with LFP, the basics of battery bank construction are lost.

Ask yourself this:  If you were building a large capacity AGM bank for your RV, would you purchase hundreds of 2.5Ah Odyssey/Enersys Cyclon cells and tack weld them all together and slap them in a box? (as good as those are).  NO.

At least battle born identifies the LFP chemistry.  However, we have no idea what the quality of those internal cells are, nor are we assured that the quality won't change if they decide to go with different vendors.  The consumer won't know.  Essentially, you don't know what you are getting.

Do you buy lead acid this way not knowing who actually made your cells?  

In the past, *NEW* cells like A123 were proudly identified as being the internal cells with certain large(ish) capacity batteries (along with Kokam and others), for those of us in the know to make a more informed decision.

STill, at some point we avoid the "magic box" concept not knowing what is actually inside, and potential problem points adding up from so many internal connection points.  Hence the simplicity of large prismatics you can actually put your voltmeter across - on each and every cell as part of a preventative maintenance routine.

Shadowcatcher

The prismatic looks interesting, the Morningstar solar controller can be programmed to work well and Progressive Dynamics makes a head unit for their converter. Thanks all for your input.  

OldMan

Raj174 said:

@Shadowcatcher
Then there are the large prismatic LFP cells that range from 20AH up to 1000AH.  These cells can be purchased in custom built packs with a BMS or they can be top balanced and installed as a DIY battery bank. Proper balancing and charging procedures need to be carefully followed with a DIY bank.
Here's a link to this type cell.
http://www.electriccarpartscompany.com/Prismatic-Lithium-Batteries_c_1.html

Rick   

I just spoke with Carl this afternoon. Shared some old-man stories. Carl is a cool guy who knows his sh*t. I'll be building a 400w battery bank with his battery cells. 8x3.2vdc 100ah, in series. Kills me to lose the power but I don't know how else to do it...three 250w 24vdc panels. MPPT controller, 3000/6000 inverter. I thought I was going to buy panels from China but there appear to be some around in the States for the same pricing.  Sometimes you have to wait until the season ends and they do  close outs (I should have jumped a few weeks ago, 300W panels for $115. Monocrystalline. 36V)

Raj174

@OldMan
Yep, I have spoken with Carl several times and yes, he knows his stuff. So, 8 100AH cells in series is a 24 volt 100AH battery bank. Standard charge current is about 33 amps. The 3 panels with an MPPT controller should give you 21 to 26 amps depending on panel temp. It's a fairly small bank for a 3000 watt inverter, but you haven't stated the loads involved so might be ok. What's the brand and model number? Is this for RV?

Rick

OldMan

Raj174 said:

@OldMan
Yep, I have spoken with Carl several times and yes, he knows his stuff. So, 8 100AH cells in series is a 24 volt 100AH battery bank. Standard charge current is about 33 amps. The 3 panels with an MPPT controller should give you 21 to 26 amps depending on panel temp. It's a fairly small bank for a 3000 watt inverter, but you haven't stated the loads involved so might be ok. What's the brand and model number? Is this for RV?

Rick

According to my calculations, it gives me 400ah @ 12vdc. That's what Carl said. My load will be heavy at times, esp in the evening. TV, fridge, sound gear (sound gear is all JBL except the head and the headphone amp). All sound gear is routed through a Yamaha MG/10 mixer. TV now, music later or if I get good and baked, music all night!!! (zzzzz). I'm a medical user.

Inverter brand is Power Tech on (Arizona company), This is the inverter.

Charge Controller is an EPPV Tracer 40a MPPT. This is the controller.

I hope I'm doing this right. I am less confident today.

Raj174

OldMan said:

Raj174 said:

@OldMan
Yep, I have spoken with Carl several times and yes, he knows his stuff. So, 8 100AH cells in series is a 24 volt 100AH battery bank. Standard charge current is about 33 amps. The 3 panels with an MPPT controller should give you 21 to 26 amps depending on panel temp. It's a fairly small bank for a 3000 watt inverter, but you haven't stated the loads involved so might be ok. What's the brand and model number? Is this for RV?

Rick

According to my calculations, it gives me 400ah @ 12vdc.

Series cells add volts, parallel cells add amps,. So 3.2V times 8 = 25.6 volts and the amperage stays the same at 100.
2 parallel strings of 4 cells in series would give you a 12 volt 200AH bank.

Rick  

Raj174

If I were going to set up a 12V 400AH bank I'd use four 400AH cells. Easier to balance, easier to manage. But I do not like paralleling strings. Carl would probably disagree with that, but that is my preference.  

Raj174

@OldMan
The inverter link didn't work. I assure you that 16 100AH cells would be necessary to make a 12 volt 400AH bank, but I wouldn't recommend doing it that way. There must have been some miscommunication with Carl concerning the battery. They had 400AH cells up until a couple of months ago but not now. 220AH are the largest they have right now.

Rick  

Raj174

@OldMan
Also, the 40 amp controller is going to limit power production to 576 watts or about 2.5 KWH, and that's with a 5 hour solar day. Probably less than your loads and about half of what a 400AH bank will hold. I believe a 60 amp controller would be more appropriate.

Rick

OldMan

Raj174 said:

@OldMan
Yep, I have spoken with Carl several times and yes, he knows his stuff. So, 8 100AH cells in series is a 24 volt 100AH battery bank. Standard charge current is about 33 amps. The 3 panels with an MPPT controller should give you 21 to 26 amps depending on panel temp. It's a fairly small bank for a 3000 watt inverter, but you haven't stated the loads involved so might be ok. What's the brand and model number? Is this for RV?

Rick

Raj174 said:

@OldMan
Also, the 40 amp controller is going to limit power production to 576 watts or about 2.5 KWH, and that's with a 5 hour solar day. Probably less than your loads and about half of what a 400AH bank will hold. I believe a 60 amp controller would be more appropriate.

Rick

Thanks, Rick. Looking into it, now!!!

Raj174

@OldMan

The reason I asked about the inverter is the tare lose, the power that the inverter itself uses. It can be 500 watt hours or more per day with larger inverters and needs to be taken into account with the loads while planing a system.

Rick

OldMan

Raj174 said:

@OldMan

The reason I asked about the inverter is the tare lose, the power that the inverter itself uses. It can be 500 watt hours or more per day with larger inverters and needs to be taken into account with the loads while planing a system.

Rick

I think it's 20 percent which is in your ballpark. Seems most of them run about 80/20, and isn't there some rule about that?

Raj174

@OldMan

I'm not sure about a rule. The tare lose is in watts, and usually listed in the inverter manual.
By the way, did you get the battery issue resolved with Carl?

Rick

Estragon

Just to clarify, there are two types of inverter losses. 

There's a loss inherent in the efficiency of converting lower DC voltage to higher AC voltage, which depends on the inverter and the size of load.  Peak efficiency seems to be about 85% for most decent PSW inverters, but it can be much lower with small loads on a large inverter.

There's also a loss caused by just having the inverter on and idle.  Larger inverters tend to have larger idle losses.  Some have a search mode to reduce this type of loss.

OldMan

Raj174 said:

@OldMan

I'm not sure about a rule. The tare lose is in watts, and usually listed in the inverter manual.
By the way, did you get the battery issue resolved with Carl?

Rick

Raj174 said:

@OldMan

I'm not sure about a rule. The tare lose is in watts, and usually listed in the inverter manual.
By the way, did you get the battery issue resolved with Carl?

Rick

Not really. I just did the math and as much as I wanted to build my own, it wasn't working out as economically feasible, would cost more than buying a pack from Shenzen. So I'll buy two, run them in parallel and get more amps for the volts...

just starting

Are you going to buy the fortune 100 ah cells? I did do 16 cells for a 24v setup so far it's been about 40 days and going good. Purchased from carl also.

GarryIno

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