batteries abruptly stopped holding voltage under load...

2

Comments

  • littleharbor2
    littleharbor2 Solar Expert Posts: 2,039 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 2017 #32
    I've seen you on both forums, and yes they can be hard on people there but I believe other than one poster all intentions were good. You need to be very specific about your equipment and situation, something you couldn't be as you don't really know solar design and electronics . Diagnosing problems via cyberspace isn't always easy. Anyway I have been doing this for a few years and don't feel qualified to give you a solution, it takes decades of learning, doing and understanding off grid solar to be able to be an expert in this field. whoever designed your system isn't one of those people. This became obvious when they set up your rather large system with a rather small 24 volt inverter and small battery bank.

     One comment I will make is this. This is the first time you mentioned what model charge controller model you have. Granted, it being a 100 amp controller and may be rated for 6,600 watts that rating is for a 48 volt system. at 24 volts it is rated for 1/2 of that.  If you want a dependable smoothly operating system down the road which will give you much longer battery life you really need to go with 48 volt. About the only equipment  you need to replace is your inverter, some minor rewiring and size your battery bank properly. I strongly recommend you find another QUALIFIED installer to do this.

    2.1 Kw Suntech 175 mono, Classic 200, Trace SW 4024 ( 15 years old  but brand new out of sealed factory box Jan. 2015), Bogart Tri-metric,  460 Ah. 24 volt LiFePo4 battery bank. Plenty of Baja Sea of Cortez sunshine.

  • mcgivor
    mcgivor Solar Expert Posts: 3,854 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 2017 #33
    Being off grid has a whole new set of rules, anything that heats must be reconsidered and an alternative used, space heating, cooking and hot water heating are basically  off limits. These loads, especially used when there is no production, at night, will deplete the stored energy (battery bank ) much faster than you may think, for example a simple 60W light would use 0.720Kw of energy in a 12 hour period, not much when on grid but way too much for off grid. A 1500W space heater used for 4 hours  overnight would  be 6Kwh. So in essence what I'm attempting to say is that your loads may be greater than you may think and the battery,  may have over time, have taken a beating , this compounded with the lower production during winter months may have crept up to the point of damaging the battery. This coupled with lower temperatures could explain to some extent the cascade effect, sudden loss of capacity, you have experienced, where the battery no longer has the capacity to support the loads you might have subjected them to in the past. 

    My suggestion is to reevaluate your  whole  system, and include every load, when they are used and for how long, even the smallest and most seemingly insignificant, as although rain falls  in drops, it is the sum total of all the drops combined.

    Although this may not address the sudden loss of capacity  experienced, there may be some correlation between the two, not being there physically, makes diagnosis virtually impossible  for anyone to conclusively determine, but with accurate  information, a reasonable  estimate can be calculated .

    1500W, 6× Schutten 250W Poly panels , Schneider MPPT 60 150 CC, Schneider SW 2524 inverter, 400Ah LFP 24V nominal battery with Battery Bodyguard BMS 
    Second system 1890W  3 × 300W No name brand poly, 3×330 Sunsolar Poly panels, Morningstar TS 60 PWM controller, no name 2000W inverter 400Ah LFP 24V nominal battery with Daly BMS, used for water pumping and day time air conditioning.  
    5Kw Yanmar clone single cylinder air cooled diesel generator for rare emergency charging and welding.
  • SolarMusher
    SolarMusher Solar Expert Posts: 176 ✭✭✭
    Jabroni,
    1) What is the Magnum PAE low battery cut out setting (LBCO) on this 24V system?
    2) If you have the Magnum AGS set on SOC, you should have a Magnum BMK installed to calculate this SOC... What is the efficiency setting of this BMK? Typically, it should be in the 95% range for AGM batteries. You shouldn't use SOC for the AGS (gen) as you're drawing too much loads for such a small battery bank (Peukert effect), it would be better to start the gen on low voltage only until Float (AGS) in winter, all other settings being Off. I'm not sure that your Honda will have enough gas capacity to allow a complete charge cycle while supplying 3kw load.
    Anyway, I agree with all that was said previously on both forums, wrong system voltage (48V), bad system design (go propane), undersized battery bank, etc... Trying to supply this kind of loads in winter was a very bad idea and an AGS to back up the system is not always your best friend.
    Good luck...
    A+
    Erik

  • littleharbor2
    littleharbor2 Solar Expert Posts: 2,039 ✭✭✭✭✭
    There are lots of propane space heaters available. . Look in Northern Supply, online
    http://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/category_heaters-stoves-fireplaces

    2.1 Kw Suntech 175 mono, Classic 200, Trace SW 4024 ( 15 years old  but brand new out of sealed factory box Jan. 2015), Bogart Tri-metric,  460 Ah. 24 volt LiFePo4 battery bank. Plenty of Baja Sea of Cortez sunshine.

  • just starting
    just starting Registered Users Posts: 235 ✭✭✭
    You have a great system  the batterys are a small but expensive part it just has kinks.Maybe a voltage change to 48 v? Would require new inverter?
    200ah LiFePO4 24v Electrodacus Sbms40 quad breaker chest freezer to fridge- Samlex PST 1524 - Samlex pst3024  - 1hp shallow well pump-Marey 4.3 GPM on demand waterheater - mama bear Fisher wood burning stove, 30" fridgarair oven ,fridegaire dishwasher  Unique 290l stainless D.C. Fridge-unique 120l portable fridge/freezer 
  • just starting
    just starting Registered Users Posts: 235 ✭✭✭
    Why not run propane heat ? 
    200ah LiFePO4 24v Electrodacus Sbms40 quad breaker chest freezer to fridge- Samlex PST 1524 - Samlex pst3024  - 1hp shallow well pump-Marey 4.3 GPM on demand waterheater - mama bear Fisher wood burning stove, 30" fridgarair oven ,fridegaire dishwasher  Unique 290l stainless D.C. Fridge-unique 120l portable fridge/freezer 
  • just starting
    just starting Registered Users Posts: 235 ✭✭✭
    I have a Mr buddy heater it's Indoor safe and can be put on a 100# cylinder will last 550 hours of use 
    200ah LiFePO4 24v Electrodacus Sbms40 quad breaker chest freezer to fridge- Samlex PST 1524 - Samlex pst3024  - 1hp shallow well pump-Marey 4.3 GPM on demand waterheater - mama bear Fisher wood burning stove, 30" fridgarair oven ,fridegaire dishwasher  Unique 290l stainless D.C. Fridge-unique 120l portable fridge/freezer 
  • just starting
    just starting Registered Users Posts: 235 ✭✭✭
    Sorry on high it will last 70hours 
    200ah LiFePO4 24v Electrodacus Sbms40 quad breaker chest freezer to fridge- Samlex PST 1524 - Samlex pst3024  - 1hp shallow well pump-Marey 4.3 GPM on demand waterheater - mama bear Fisher wood burning stove, 30" fridgarair oven ,fridegaire dishwasher  Unique 290l stainless D.C. Fridge-unique 120l portable fridge/freezer 
  • Photowhit
    Photowhit Solar Expert Posts: 6,002 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 2017 #40
    I don't like the system design either. As I have said a 48 volt makes more sense and a designer who pushed this with just the size of your array, I would not recommend to anyone. I have a 24 volt system ONLY because I had a smaller system and had purchased the forklift battery. So when I was forced to move to a different place I already had the battery, recently purchased that might last 15 years... If not I would have gone with a 48 volt system.

    I have already made suggestions for trying to make your system work. I will add these comments as if I was designing your system from scratch.

    Solar does have challenges for heating and cooling, I would not plan on space heating with solar, unless perhaps you are in a particularly sunny area (Where are you located?), and then, as always, it would be conservation first, a very tight, very well insulated space.

    I certainly would think cooking is fine with your system (although I would not use the oven, and an oven might draw more than your inverter can deliver) and even water heating, perhaps running your generator at times of repeated cloudy days. I cook and heat water with solar on a slightly smaller system, though I will use a sun shower with water heated on the wood stove at times.  I would not try to heat with solar, they don't work very well together, it's coldest when it's dark and storage is always the weakest part of solar systems.

    I suspect you should be able to run an air conditioner on your system in the longer sunny days of summer. You might turn up your temperature setting during the night to 'load shift' and cooling more during the day while you have the extra energy. Trying to keep the load off of stored energy is something to be desired.

    I, also would recommend a gas heater, they are very efficient use of energy, Mr. Heater Buddy  (and I had one that I used in my cabin) are Okay, but I found even with proper ventilation, (window cracked 1/2 inch, the recommend 9 square inches of ventilation for air exchange) I got headachy in my small cabin. I would and do heat with wood, and would recommend a direct vent propane heater if you did not want to do wood. They can be vented outside with out going through the roof or even above the roof line. While Me Heaters are not recommended for household use, (from their manual), using one with proper ventilation as a temporary fix until you installed one of the other options would be my plan. Since you would have to burn gas of some type to run a generator, the efficiency is much greater to use it directly to heat.

    Link to the cheapest direct vent heater, there are other nicer looking ones;
    http://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200631824_200631824?cm_mmc=Google-pla&utm_source=Google_PLA&utm_medium=Heaters, Stoves + Fireplaces > Natural Gas Heaters&utm_campaign=HouseWarmer&utm_content=44633&gclid=CjwKEAiA79zDBRCgyf2FgeiY-CESJABzr0BMNvuHnFxbX7Gq1cZhLxb2AfG5_1R4DMV_PPoIpXGN-BoCaLzw_wcB

    I'll hop in here and first say, Yes, "SunGod" is NOT helping anyone, he's just trying to prove how much he knows and has sent many people anywhere else for help. 10 years ago, I spent a couple hours a day replying and trying to educate him on a now defunk solar forum. I do wish you had gotten a chance to inform him that there are 100 ah charge controllers (and have been 120ah and possible higher). I told him about Net metering when he refused to believe, I was in my air conditioned cabin, when he told me it couldn't be done. I always posted links and he would always not follow them and continue on. He once posted that solar systems were only 90% reliable.... I could go on, and have in the past, He's more a plague than a benefit to Solar forums. I moved this rant to the end since it was so long.
    Home system 4000 watt (Evergreen) array standing, with 2 Midnite Classic Lites,  Midnite E-panel, Magnum MS4024, Prosine 1800(now backup) and Exeltech 1100(former backup...lol), 660 ah 24v Forklift battery(now 10 years old). Off grid for 20 years (if I include 8 months on a bicycle).
    - Assorted other systems, pieces and to many panels in the closet to not do more projects.
  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,431 admin
    Electric heat from Solar power can be a problem... But if you budget for the energy usage and are happy with the system (costs and otherwise)--Yes, it can be done.

    What has worked well are mini-split heat pumps. They are several times more efficient that pure resistance heating (down to ~55 degrees F or so outside air temperature). But, that may not be for you (especially if you do not need A/C during summer).

    In general, it is not uncommon that "one thing" fails first. Whether that is a bad cell/battery, bad electrical connection, or something else (espcially if the system was running fine before and is now "bad")... Finding that item by using a volt meter while the system is operating under load (check each battery, use a current clamp meter to measure current between the two parallel strings, etc.). You are just looking for something "different" (you have 8 identical batteries and connections).

    Of course, it is always possible that something happened (batteries taken to dead the week before, etc.)--Or simply all of the batteries have lost capacity (due to age/heat/cycling/etc.)--But, like you, that is usually a more gradual process.

    you are drawing a lot of current from your batteries--And everything probably has to be "perfect" for all to work well--And it is possible that you have reached a typing point where the aging batteries are simply not able to provide the needed current+voltage--But it does sound like you still have a bad battery (or connection somewhere).

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • Horsefly
    Horsefly Registered Users Posts: 470 ✭✭✭✭
    Photowhit said:
    I'll hop in here and first say, Yes, "SunGod" is NOT helping anyone, he's just trying to prove how much he knows and has sent many people anywhere else for help. 10 years ago, I spent a couple hours a day replying and trying to educate him on a now defunk solar forum. I do wish you had gotten a chance to inform him that there are 100 ah charge controllers (and have been 120ah and possible higher). I told him about Net metering when he refused to believe, I was in my air conditioned cabin, when he told me it couldn't be done. I always posted links and he would always not follow them and continue on. He once posted that solar systems were only 90% reliable.... I could go on, and have in the past, He's more a plague than a benefit to Solar forums. I moved this rant to the end since it was so long.
    You say SunGod, but I would think you probably mean Sunking.  There was someone named SunGod who posted a couple of times years ago, but nothing offensive.  When I was trying to learn as much as I could to design our little off grid system, I found this board and that board at about the same time. I was really surprised that Sunking was allowed to post the stuff he did. After reading some of his mean, belittling posts I decided it wasn't worth it to post over there. He seems like the classic definition of a troll. He should find something more useful to do.

    The help here has been just the opposite.  All of you guys here are knowledgeable and helpful, without trying to make others look stupid. This is a great forum, made up of great people. Sunking - almost by himself - makes the other forum pretty worthless.

    Steve
    Off-grid cabin: 6 x Canadian Solar CSK-280M PV panels, Schneider XW-MPPT60-150 Charge Controller, Schneider CSW4024 Inverter/Charger, Schneider SCP, 8S (25.6V), 230Ah Eve LiFePO4 battery in a custom insulated and heated case.
  • Jabroni
    Jabroni Registered Users Posts: 39 ✭✭
    edited January 2017 #43
    [quote]@littleharbor2 said:
    > I've seen you on both forums, and yes they can be hard on people there but I believe other than one poster all intentions were good. You need to be very specific about your equipment and situation, something you couldn't be as you don't really know solar design and electronics . Diagnosing problems via cyberspace isn't always easy. Anyway I have been doing this for a few years and don't feel qualified to give you a solution, it takes decades of learning, doing and understanding off grid solar to be able to be an expert in this field. whoever designed your system isn't one of those people. This became obvious when they set up your rather large system with a rather small 24 volt inverter and small battery bank.
    >
    >  One comment I will make is this. This is the first time you mentioned what model charge controller model you have. Granted, it being a 100 amp controller and may be rated for 6,600 watts that rating is for a 48 volt system. at 24 volts it is rated for 1/2 of that.  If you want a dependable smoothly operating system down the road which will give you much longer battery life you really need to go with 48 volt. About the only equipment  you need to replace is your inverter, some minor rewiring and size your battery bank properly. I strongly recommend you find another QUALIFIED installer to do this.[/quote]

    Agreed, most over there were trying to help. Most found Sungawd to be "nice" & "helpful". That's guilt by association in my book.

    Being that Im not an expert in this field, I dont know what is easy to diagnose or not. For all I knew, I could describe my situation and a someone would go "hey, Ive seen this happen before, go check ____". And at worst, yes, if I needed to describe more about the situation, Im not holding info back. Few cared to ask any questions over there before jumping to conclusions.

    1 think I know now, Im coming here before designing my next setup.

    As for mentioning the charge controller, I didnt really find it relevant to the initial problem I was having. Sure, it appears my system was mis-designed, but at the end of the day it was serving it's purpose all summer & fall. I wasnt looking for a system re-design. I was looking to troubleshoot why the auto-start could cause my batteries to fall off a instant cliff.

    Tho, Im appreciative of the help. You just explained why I need 2 of the charge controllers. And why I shouldve only needed 1 (had the system been designed for 48v).

    I was planning on adding more solar panels to get it to 8k and another inverter to get 8k of power when needed. Now? I need to find a new installer first and go over any possible upgrades with you guys here.
  • Jabroni
    Jabroni Registered Users Posts: 39 ✭✭
    mcgivor said:

    Although this may not address the sudden loss of capacity  experienced, there may be some correlation between the two, not being there physically, makes diagnosis virtually impossible  for anyone to conclusively determine, but with accurate  information, a reasonable  estimate can be calculated .


    Im trying my best, to give you any and all information I have.

    Im really starting to think the cold temperature has a role in all of this. The sudden drop in temps damn near correlates perfectly with when the auto-start was installed.
  • Jabroni
    Jabroni Registered Users Posts: 39 ✭✭
    Jabroni,
    1) What is the Magnum PAE low battery cut out setting (LBCO) on this 24V system?
    2) If you have the Magnum AGS set on SOC, you should have a Magnum BMK installed to calculate this SOC... What is the efficiency setting of this BMK? Typically, it should be in the 95% range for AGM batteries. You shouldn't use SOC for the AGS (gen) as you're drawing too much loads for such a small battery bank (Peukert effect), it would be better to start the gen on low voltage only until Float (AGS) in winter, all other settings being Off. I'm not sure that your Honda will have enough gas capacity to allow a complete charge cycle while supplying 3kw load.
    Anyway, I agree with all that was said previously on both forums, wrong system voltage (48V), bad system design (go propane), undersized battery bank, etc... Trying to supply this kind of loads in winter was a very bad idea and an AGS to back up the system is not always your best friend.
    Good luck...
    A+
    Erik


    1) I believe it was set to 23v
    2) Yes, there is a Magnum BMK installed. Unfortunately when going thru the setup of the system step-by-step with the Magnum tech service yesterday we discovered that the BMK was set to calculate SOC based on 790 amp hours. 

    The SOC was never used to start the AGS. It's never dropped that low since the auto-start was installed. It's never had a chance. The voltage is what kicks it on. And sadly, another mistake discovered with the Magnum tech rep, it wasnt set to FLOAT and the absorb time was set waaay too short at only 2 hours. So yes, the batteries were taking a beating. The Magnum rep was hopeful they could "fix" the batteries tho by force charging them and hopefully burning off some of the sulphation. We'll see how that plays out.

    And no, the Honda definitely doesnt have the fuel capacity. I have lots of fuel containers. I'd get a solid week out of 16 gallons of fuel. Once the auto-start was installed the generator was pretty much running 20 hours a day and I was using way more fuel. That was my initial red flags and complaints to my installer about the setup. AGS was supposed to be more convenient but in the end it was costing me a ton more money.
  • Jabroni
    Jabroni Registered Users Posts: 39 ✭✭
    You have a great system  the batterys are a small but expensive part it just has kinks.Maybe a voltage change to 48 v? Would require new inverter?
    I suppose. I was hoping to add another identical inverter so I could upgrade to 8k watts of power on a sunny summer day.

    New batteries are one thing. But having to start all over with this system is going to suck.
  • Jabroni
    Jabroni Registered Users Posts: 39 ✭✭
    Why not run propane heat ? 
    3 reasons....

    Im in a very small space and it was making my wife nauseous. 

    And the raised humidity levels from propane.

    And I'd just spent $30k on a system that was supposed to make me independent of needing any supplies from the outside world. My facility is industrial in nature but it was also supposed to be my zombie apocalypse bunker in case of emergency. Nothing about what Ive used this system/facility for is a surprise to the company that I hired to install it, I was very upfront about the loads and all the intended uses of equipment. And that installer has a pretty good reputation in the community for knowing their stuff. But clearly, they're hacks. I have NOT had a good experience with them at any point in this process and each time they've been out to my place from the initial install to the added solar array to the auto-start, it has taken multiple trips due to re-work and install errors on their part. So much so that at one point they gave me back $4000 in cash to apologize for past mistakes.

    Thus a big reason I was convinced that they did something wrong on the auto-start install. Of which until I get someone else out here to rule it out, Im still not 100% certain that there isnt a loose wire somewhere.
  • Jabroni
    Jabroni Registered Users Posts: 39 ✭✭
    I have a Mr buddy heater it's Indoor safe and can be put on a 100# cylinder will last 550 hours of use 
    We bought one last month after I stopped using the AGS and electric heaters to keep things warm (burning thru too much fuel / batteries not holding load)

    That thing was a nightmare and I learned from a quick google search & reading some forums that Mr Buddy's are very unreliable and usually must be modified when new to prevent from clogging so they will operate properly.

    We got it working now and it heats the room pretty good. But again, my wife get's nauseous from the propane smell so we dont run it often. We dress warm. This has not been a fun winter as you can imagine.
  • Jabroni
    Jabroni Registered Users Posts: 39 ✭✭
    Photowhit said:


    I'll hop in here and first say, Yes, "SunGod" is NOT helping anyone, he's just trying to prove how much he knows and has sent many people anywhere else for help. 10 years ago, I spent a couple hours a day replying and trying to educate him on a now defunk solar forum. I do wish you had gotten a chance to inform him that there are 100 ah charge controllers (and have been 120ah and possible higher). I told him about Net metering when he refused to believe, I was in my air conditioned cabin, when he told me it couldn't be done. I always posted links and he would always not follow them and continue on. He once posted that solar systems were only 90% reliable.... I could go on, and have in the past, He's more a plague than a benefit to Solar forums. I moved this rant to the end since it was so long.

    Agreed. The irony is that for a solar hobbyist, he really should get away from the computer and get some more sun.

    A good rule of thumb I read a long time ago on a forum, and this applies to all social media, "talk to people as if youre sitting across from them at a local bar". 

    So much gets lost in translation over text. It's hard enough to convey nuance & tone. No need to make it harder than it already is.
  • Jabroni
    Jabroni Registered Users Posts: 39 ✭✭
    BB. said:
    Electric heat from Solar power can be a problem... But if you budget for the energy usage and are happy with the system (costs and otherwise)--Yes, it can be done.

    What has worked well are mini-split heat pumps. They are several times more efficient that pure resistance heating (down to ~55 degrees F or so outside air temperature). But, that may not be for you (especially if you do not need A/C during summer).

    In general, it is not uncommon that "one thing" fails first. Whether that is a bad cell/battery, bad electrical connection, or something else (espcially if the system was running fine before and is now "bad")... Finding that item by using a volt meter while the system is operating under load (check each battery, use a current clamp meter to measure current between the two parallel strings, etc.). You are just looking for something "different" (you have 8 identical batteries and connections).

    Of course, it is always possible that something happened (batteries taken to dead the week before, etc.)--Or simply all of the batteries have lost capacity (due to age/heat/cycling/etc.)--But, like you, that is usually a more gradual process.

    you are drawing a lot of current from your batteries--And everything probably has to be "perfect" for all to work well--And it is possible that you have reached a typing point where the aging batteries are simply not able to provide the needed current+voltage--But it does sound like you still have a bad battery (or connection somewhere).

    -Bill
    Great post. Thx. Thx to everyone to be honest.

    I think there is a bad connection as well. Im going to have someone out here to go thru the system ASAP. Even tho I already had the original installer out here it was pretty evident during his "search" that he had already made up his mind that I needed $5k more in batteries. The moment he handed me the prepped invoice I wanted to sock him in the face cause the jig was up in my mind.

    We did not check the system while under load. That probably shouldve been done.

    And again, I cannot rule out the ambient temperature in all of this. From November 26th thru early December the avg battery temp dropped to 12 degrees C (from 20) and then right about the same time the auto start was installed the avg battery temp has been 10 degrees C from then until today. That, to the laymen, appears to be my smoking gun in all of this.
  • Jabroni
    Jabroni Registered Users Posts: 39 ✭✭
    Horsefly said:
    Photowhit said:
    I'll hop in here and first say, Yes, "SunGod" is NOT helping anyone, he's just trying to prove how much he knows and has sent many people anywhere else for help. 10 years ago, I spent a couple hours a day replying and trying to educate him on a now defunk solar forum. I do wish you had gotten a chance to inform him that there are 100 ah charge controllers (and have been 120ah and possible higher). I told him about Net metering when he refused to believe, I was in my air conditioned cabin, when he told me it couldn't be done. I always posted links and he would always not follow them and continue on. He once posted that solar systems were only 90% reliable.... I could go on, and have in the past, He's more a plague than a benefit to Solar forums. I moved this rant to the end since it was so long.
    You say SunGod, but I would think you probably mean Sunking.  There was someone named SunGod who posted a couple of times years ago, but nothing offensive.  When I was trying to learn as much as I could to design our little off grid system, I found this board and that board at about the same time. I was really surprised that Sunking was allowed to post the stuff he did. After reading some of his mean, belittling posts I decided it wasn't worth it to post over there. He seems like the classic definition of a troll. He should find something more useful to do.

    The help here has been just the opposite.  All of you guys here are knowledgeable and helpful, without trying to make others look stupid. This is a great forum, made up of great people. Sunking - almost by himself - makes the other forum pretty worthless.

    Steve

    "SunGod" was a joke I think.

    As for him being allowed to post over there, the moderators dont find his routine offensive. Oh well, their loss. I wont be going back and it seems from the responses here Im not the only one.

    And yes, this forum has been VERY helpful.
  • SolarMusher
    SolarMusher Solar Expert Posts: 176 ✭✭✭
    Jabroni,
    Did you check if the other settings (SOC, Loads) are really set to Off (I mean other than Voltage)?  I think that 23V may be a bit high for LBCO in your situation, something like 22V for the LBCO and 23V with a 60sd delay for the AGS would be more realistic.
    Did you try to charge the bank "manually" without AGS but with longer absorb time (4hr)?
    I would also check that the absorb is on Time only (no end current/amps).
    A+
    Erik
  • Photowhit
    Photowhit Solar Expert Posts: 6,002 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 2017 #53
    Jabroni said:
    I have a Mr buddy heater it's Indoor safe and can be put on a 100# cylinder will last 550 hours of use 
    We bought one last month after I stopped using the AGS and electric heaters to keep things warm (burning thru too much fuel / batteries not holding load)

    That thing was a nightmare and I learned from a quick google search & reading some forums that Mr Buddy's are very unreliable and usually must be modified when new to prevent from clogging so they will operate properly.

    We got it working now and it heats the room pretty good. But again, my wife get's nauseous from the propane smell so we dont run it often. We dress warm. This has not been a fun winter as you can imagine.

    I'm surprised you had problems with The Mr Heaters working, they worked flawlessly for me for one season at a time, but I stored them outside and they would get a mite or spider that would seal the orifice for gas, I was told to blow it out with compressed air through the input line, I used an adaptor and had a propane take outside. Either this worked or it was from just leaving it installed inside, but I didn't have issues season to season this way, for about 3 years. I'm not surprised about the headaches, me too! I usually turned off the heater at night and left the window cracked for a while and then closed it, my place was very well insulated so It would hold the heat pretty well.

    I will reiterate, No system is likely to work through the winter without the use or an external generator. If you did the math you are creating a very inefficient way of heating your home with gas. Please check out direct vent gas heaters. I liked to one in my earlier post. They bring air in from outside for combustion and exhaust outside, they only leave most of the heat inside. The vent is just outside, it does not have to be taken above the roof line. If you happen to be local to Central Missouri send me a PM and I'll figure out how to get one to you. I purchased one but my HOA changed rules. It's been sitting outside boxed up, I suspect someone will have to blow out the lines and inspect it.

    "SunGod" was a reference to the One who shall not be named, it was a joke! He and I have a long history, I think you can find some of it at that forum, I accidentally logged in there, appears being banned for life is 1-2 years...lol. Maybe they found out that I had been banned from the old solar forum by "that guy" when they made him a moderator, it lasted about 12 hours when the admin found out and offered to make me a moderator...  "Indy" if your out there your forum helped a lot of people, I hope you have had a blessed retirement.

    I would like to apologize for anyone who uses the handle SunGod, it is just a joke intended for the "King".
    Home system 4000 watt (Evergreen) array standing, with 2 Midnite Classic Lites,  Midnite E-panel, Magnum MS4024, Prosine 1800(now backup) and Exeltech 1100(former backup...lol), 660 ah 24v Forklift battery(now 10 years old). Off grid for 20 years (if I include 8 months on a bicycle).
    - Assorted other systems, pieces and to many panels in the closet to not do more projects.
  • Jabroni
    Jabroni Registered Users Posts: 39 ✭✭
    edited January 2017 #54
    Jabroni,
    Did you check if the other settings (SOC, Loads) are really set to Off (I mean other than Voltage)?  I think that 23V may be a bit high for LBCO in your situation, something like 22V for the LBCO and 23V with a 60sd delay for the AGS would be more realistic.
    Did you try to charge the bank "manually" without AGS but with longer absorb time (4hr)?
    I would also check that the absorb is on Time only (no end current/amps).
    A+
    Erik
    The SOC and Loads are not set to "off". I can do that if you suggest. They havent been used yet. Im able to track it with the MagWeb interface.

    22v for the LBCO plus a 60 second delay huh? The point I see, is that the 23v LBCO was never an issue before. Lowering it further might only put off the inevitable for a few moments. Or am I wrong in that?

    Yes, Im now manually charging the bank with absorb time set to 4 hours. The Magnum rep had me change a few settings and requested that I do it twice a day (even if the batteries show full) as to burn off the sulphation and try to recondition the batteries. They were pretty hopeful this would work.

    Yes, she had me set the absorb to time. No end w/ current or amps.
  • Estragon
    Estragon Registered Users Posts: 4,496 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 2017 #55
    If you don't already have them, I'd suggest you get a multimeter, an infrared thermometer, and a clamp-on amp meter. These are pretty basic tools you should probably have on hand even without this current problem.

    With these tools, here is what I would do:

    With minimal loads (no loads over ~4a for at least 1/2 hour) and charge controllers off, get a reference voltage and temperatures at the ends of each string of batteries, at the connection where the two strings are joined together, and the bussbar where the inverter and controllers connect. Write down these values.

    If voltage drops more than about 0.1v as you move to connections more distant from the batteries, there is a problem with a connection or cable is undersized. Likewise, the connection temps should be very close to ambient. If all good so far...

    Make sure AGS is off.

    Add a known constant load like a heater (~1500w x 1.2 inverter tare÷25v=~72a). If you have a smaller known load like a string of lights use that.

    When the system displayed voltage has dropped to ~23v check and note the above voltages and temps again.

    Turn off the load.

    Same as first test. Voltage may be sagging as you test but should still be fairly close if you can take them reasonably close in time. Temps should still be close to ambient.

    If still all good check voltages across each battery +/-. If still good, grab a coffee and post results here. After 20mins check voltage at the end of each string again and note.

    Turn controllers back on. Charge with genny if needed. Check voltage at the end of each string every 15mins and note. If you have the clamp amp meter also check the current into each string. Compare each reading to what your system is displaying.

    When you get to absorb voltage turn your larger loads back on if need be.

    N.B. This is what *I* would do. You'll need to assess your own comfort level working around live circuits and ability to do so safely.
    Off-grid.  
    Main daytime system ~4kw panels into 2xMNClassic150 370ah 48v bank 2xOutback 3548 inverter 120v + 240v autotransformer
    Night system ~1kw panels into 1xMNClassic150 700ah 12v bank morningstar 300w inverter
  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,431 admin
    And let's leave the comments about other forums over there.

    It is not very fair to discuss their migration policies on this forum.

    Take care,
    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • littleharbor2
    littleharbor2 Solar Expert Posts: 2,039 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Need to be sure The clamp on meter is DC rated, like this one.
    http://www.kleintools.com/catalog/clamp-meters/400a-acdc-true-rms-clamp-meter

    2.1 Kw Suntech 175 mono, Classic 200, Trace SW 4024 ( 15 years old  but brand new out of sealed factory box Jan. 2015), Bogart Tri-metric,  460 Ah. 24 volt LiFePo4 battery bank. Plenty of Baja Sea of Cortez sunshine.

  • SolarMusher
    SolarMusher Solar Expert Posts: 176 ✭✭✭
    edited January 2017 #58
    It would be better to have 1 volt difference between LBCO and AGS start. By setting the AGS above 23V under load, you are in the 60% SOC range assuming that your batteries are still in good shape.
    From memory on PAE, default LBCO is set at 20V from factory with 1mn delay and can be adjusted from 18V to 24.4V with a ME-RC or ARC (these settings are under load).
    BMK can be a bit foolish with such load and SOC (from BMK) can drift quickly, I would not trust it as a parameter to start/stop a gen in your case. Yes, set both to Off and use Low Voltage only (23V max) to start and Float to stop this gen until you have enough sun to charge/absorb these batteries for long enough (assuming that your absorb voltage is right and time set to 4hr).
    Did you check the battery efficiency in the BMK setup menu? What this number is?
    If that were mine, I would add a second battery monitor (Trimetric) to the system.
    Just guessing,
    A+
    Erik
  • westbranch
    westbranch Solar Expert Posts: 5,183 ✭✭✭✭
    Ahha, sorry I missed that you had 2 strings of 24V... 
    I see your main issue right now is the sudden drop off that arrived when the sun drops from the sky in December...
    (My personal solution has been to cut back on optional consumption as needed  or run the genny in the daytime so the battery can handle the overnight draw) 
     During the summer/fall I would wager that your PV was maintaining a goodly portion of the loads... come Dec. that is not happening as the battery is now depleted  (Nov. probably was the shoulder/transition season...) and the solar charger is playing catch up, but it can never happen due to less incoming, so the gen has to be started....
    Now we know that the settings are off for the start and stop as you outlined, good that you got that reset.
    Now, hopefully the gen will start and stop only a few times a day since the batteries will get a far better charge, at a minimum along the lines of what they should have, that just needs to be fine tuned after the bank recovers with good long 3 stage charges.
    Please keep us posted on the recovery actions you take. .
     
    KID #51B  4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM
    CL#29032 FW 2126/ 2073/ 2133 175A E-Panel WBjr, 3 x 4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM 
    Cotek ST1500W 24V Inverter,OmniCharge 3024,
    2 x Cisco WRT54GL i/c DD-WRT Rtr & Bridge,
    Eu3/2/1000i Gens, 1680W & E-Panel/WBjr to come, CL #647 asleep
    West Chilcotin, BC, Canada
  • just starting
    just starting Registered Users Posts: 235 ✭✭✭
    Their are some nice blue Flame heaters. I don't know a lot about them may I suggest a rv furnace  it might suit your needs and olny takes a small space. You can get a 10 amp 24volt to 12 volt converter to run it. But a 100# propane tank olny holds 2159400 btu  so 30000 btu furnace on 1/4 time will last 11 days.and at 1.5 amp draw per hour at 24v with1/4 run time. + You could run 4" ducting where you want.
    200ah LiFePO4 24v Electrodacus Sbms40 quad breaker chest freezer to fridge- Samlex PST 1524 - Samlex pst3024  - 1hp shallow well pump-Marey 4.3 GPM on demand waterheater - mama bear Fisher wood burning stove, 30" fridgarair oven ,fridegaire dishwasher  Unique 290l stainless D.C. Fridge-unique 120l portable fridge/freezer 
  • mike95490
    mike95490 Solar Expert Posts: 9,583 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Jabroni said:
    Great post. Thx. Thx to everyone to be honest.

    I think there is a bad connection as well. ......
    Then a hand held $20 IR thermometer will find it quickly at the power levels you are at.

    But, I'm of the opinion that you have been deeply (90%) cycling your batteries all summer, and then the short days and cold weather finished them off, 
    Powerfab top of pole PV mount | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
    || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
    || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

    solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
    gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister ,