Living with no generator!

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  • CDN_VT
    CDN_VT Solar Expert Posts: 492 ✭✭✭
    #62
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    Re: Living with no generator!

    Google is your friend ! :https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=cr&ei=lI72UsinO9L-oQTF9YLoDg#q=lpg+small+engine+conversion+kit+

    http://www.propanecarbs.com/small_engines.html



    & why Propane (LPG) or NG Natural Gas : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ET5st0ILLxA


    On this Video , What he has done is NOT legal or SAFE !! but you get the meaning. you must have regulators & safety setup. Propane has different values & property's than NG. Be Safe first.
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  • Out There
    Out There Solar Expert Posts: 96 ✭✭✭✭
    #63
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    Re: Living with no generator!

    UPDATE: While waiting for the new "back-up" generator to arrive, I went ahead and rented a Honda EU3000iS. This gas-powered generator has an "idle-down" feature, allowing the generator to run at a lower rpm until it needs more power, at which time it comes up to full speed. The generator is quiet. It had no trouble powering the inverter's charger (unlike my way-underated 650w gen). I was able to get a bulk charge on Saturday. Then on Sunday I ran a 2 hour equalization charge, then kept it going so that it would handle any lighting or water pumping needs we might have. I also plugged in the refrigerator while the generator was running (both weekend days). I feel much better, now, having brought the battery bank back up to over 27 volts.
    As for this generator: It's rated at 2600 or 2800 (depending upon what you're reading) continuous watts and 3000 surge watts. BIG plusses: 1) Quiet. It ran right outside my dining room window, and we had to really listen to be able to detect it. 2) Fuel efficient! Wow! This generator ran for 12 hours on less than a tank of fuel! I think I poured in 2.5 gallons Sunday morning to top it off, after it ran all day Saturday. It's rated for 20 hours on 3.4 gallons of gasoline at 1/4 power.
    Negative (yup… really… only one): It runs on gasoline. If I had to buy the generator, there would be another negative: price. It sells for right around $2000. For the cost of this one, I can buy 3 of the 4400 watt units like the one due to arrive tomorrow… and the cheaper one is dual fuel. The Honda is not.
    -Brian
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  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    #64
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    Re: Living with no generator!

    Brian, you only missed one positive: that Honda will still be running after the 'bargain' gen has croaked. :D

    I've got over 6,000 hours on an EU1000i and about 5,000 hours on an EU2000i. Meanwhile the big B&S power Coleman 5kW monster didn't make it to 1,000 hours before blowing a head gasket.

    Personally I don't have a problem with gasoline as everything I've got runs on the same fuel so I 'keep it on hand'. Also diesel and propane are more expensive - and gasoline is bad enough in price!

    Up here that gen you rented would be $1,000 more, btw.

    Hopefully you have saved your batteries from a premature death.
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  • Sun Dog
    Sun Dog Solar Expert Posts: 115 ✭✭
    #65
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    Re: Living with no generator!

    http://www.generatorsales.com/order/Honda-EU3000iS-Tri-fuel.asp?page=EU3000iS_Tri_Fuel :cool:

    Glad to hear you got your bank charged. Only you can make the decision but there certainly is value in the Honda, noise level/fuel consumption/reliability/resale value.
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  • Out There
    Out There Solar Expert Posts: 96 ✭✭✭✭
    #66
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    Re: Living with no generator!
    Cariboocoot wrote: »
    Brian, you only missed one positive: that Honda will still be running after the 'bargain' gen has croaked. :D
    I don't doubt the longevity of the Honda engines. My pressure washer has a big old Honda 11 hp (I think) which is at least 20 years old. Still starts with little or no effort and runs like a champ. I bought it from a rental shop in 1997 (or so) and it just keeps going. The little 650 w generator can sit for (literally) years without running. Put in a little go juice and a couple of pulls and "Voila"! Of note: The engine on the cheapo is a 7 hp Honda clone. Probably reverse engineered in China.
    Cariboocoot wrote: »
    Personally I don't have a problem with gasoline as everything I've got runs on the same fuel so I 'keep it on hand'. Also diesel and propane are more expensive - and gasoline is bad enough in price!
    Right now, Propane is approaching the cost of gasoline (it's about ten to twenty cents less per gallon) due to a higher than usual winter demand, but typically it provides a considerable savings over gas. Not to mention that if you store gasoline, it degrades, whereas propane doesn't. You also have issues if the gasoline is blended with Ethanol, as is the case with all gasoline sold in the states. LPG is also a domestically obtained/produced fuel.

    Cariboocoot wrote: »
    Hopefully have saved your batteries from a premature death.
    I hope so. Thanks.
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  • Blackcherry04
    Blackcherry04 Solar Expert Posts: 2,490 ✭✭✭
    #67
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    Re: Living with no generator!
    Out There wrote: »
    For the cost of this one, I can buy 3 of the 4400 watt units like the one due to arrive tomorrow…
    -Brian
    Yep, and you probably will. Another way to look at it you'll have lots of parts, x3 .
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  • Out There
    Out There Solar Expert Posts: 96 ✭✭✭✭
    #68
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    Re: Living with no generator!
    Blackcherry04 wrote: »
    Yep, and you probably will. Another way to look at it you'll have lots of parts, x3 .
    Interestingly, the unit I'm getting and it's big brother are both in the top five small generators on a review site I checked…. there wasn't a single Honda on that site, although Yamaha and Champion were both represented. If the engine fails, I can always buy a Honda power plant to replace it (truth be told, the go-kart community and a few others who deal in small engines, prefer the clones to the real deal… just sayin')

    -Brian
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  • Sun Dog
    Sun Dog Solar Expert Posts: 115 ✭✭
    #69
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    Re: Living with no generator!

    It's going to be the backup to your Generac so I'm sure you will be just fine. Even if it is a little louder, it will likely put a smile on your face to hear it chugging away as it lets you know you still have power.
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  • Out There
    Out There Solar Expert Posts: 96 ✭✭✭✭
    #70
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    Re: Living with no generator!
    Sun Dog wrote: »
    It's going to be the backup to your Generac so I'm sure you will be just fine. Even if it is a little louder, it will likely put a smile on your face to hear it chugging away as it lets you know you still have power.
    Yes it will and….
    Thank you.
    -Brian
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  • techntrek
    techntrek Solar Expert Posts: 1,372 ✭✭✭
    #71
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    Re: Living with no generator!
    Out There wrote: »
    UPDATE: While waiting for the new "back-up" generator to arrive, I went ahead and rented a Honda EU3000iS. This gas-powered generator has an "idle-down" feature, ...The generator is quiet....Fuel efficient! Wow!

    Yes. And yes. This is why for backup systems I recommend one small inverter-generator (Honda or Yamaha, forget the rest) for baseline loads 24/7, and a big cheap contractor-grade screamer for the occasional big loads like well pumps or electric water heaters. Plus the screamer can be a backup for the small genset if it breaks, which is unlikely.

    I currently have a Yamaha inverter-genset but I'm considering upgrading to the one you are renting. For starters it has the quietest idle sound rating. I can also get a full night's sleep from that gas tank where my Yamaha will only give me 8 hours when running my camper and its A/C in the summer.
    4.5 kw APC UPS powered by a Prius, 12 kw Generac, Honda EU3000is
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  • upa123
    upa123 Registered Users Posts: 17 ✭
    #72
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    Re: Living with no generator!
    techntrek wrote: »
    I currently have a Yamaha inverter-genset but I'm considering upgrading to the one you are renting. For starters it has the quietest idle sound rating. I can also get a full night's sleep from that gas tank where my Yamaha will only give me 8 hours when running my camper and its A/C in the summer.

    I agree, that is my only beef with my Yamaha ef2000is inverter gennie, wish it had a integral fuel pump like the Hondas so you can hook up an extended run tank without trying to rely on gravity alone. Otherwise if it only runs 1/4 power I can often get 12-14 hours run time on a gallon of gas. It has served my well and reliably with over 1400 hours on the clock. That said, I am intrigued with the previously noted trifuel Honda eu3000 and 2 wire start option on generatorsales .com site. Unfortunately I think my wife would kill me if I added another generator to my ever expanding collection.
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  • westbranch
    westbranch Solar Expert Posts: 5,183 ✭✭✭✭
    #73
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    Re: Living with no generator!
    Out There wrote: »
    UPDATE:... I was able to get a bulk charge on Saturday.
    Then on Sunday I ran a 2 hour equalization charge, then kept it going so that it would handle any lighting or water pumping needs we might have. ..............
    I feel much better, now, having brought the battery bank back up to over 27 volts.
    -Brian

    OK, so you got EQ #1 done. What are the SG's on those cells?. The process may (is) not necessarily be over yet!
     
    KID #51B  4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM
    CL#29032 FW 2126/ 2073/ 2133 175A E-Panel WBjr, 3 x 4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM 
    Cotek ST1500W 24V Inverter,OmniCharge 3024,
    2 x Cisco WRT54GL i/c DD-WRT Rtr & Bridge,
    Eu3/2/1000i Gens, 1680W & E-Panel/WBjr to come, CL #647 asleep
    West Chilcotin, BC, Canada
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  • Out There
    Out There Solar Expert Posts: 96 ✭✭✭✭
    #74
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    Re: Living with no generator!

    I don't have a really good hydrometer. As long as I rinse well (with the requisite distilled water) after each test, should I be "close enough" to gain a handle on them? I guess what I'm asking is: If the cells are read relative to each other and I'm "close" on the "true SG, will I get what I need?
    -Brian
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  • vtmaps
    vtmaps Solar Expert Posts: 3,741 ✭✭✭✭
    #75
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    Re: Living with no generator!
    Out There wrote: »
    I don't have a really good hydrometer. As long as I rinse well (with the requisite distilled water) after each test, should I be "close enough" to gain a handle on them? I guess what I'm asking is: If the cells are read relative to each other and I'm "close" on the "true SG, will I get what I need?

    No. What you need is a good hydrometer. They're not very expensive. --vtMaps
    4 X 235watt Samsung, Midnite ePanel, Outback VFX3524 FM60 & mate, 4 Interstate L16, trimetric, Honda eu2000i
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  • westbranch
    westbranch Solar Expert Posts: 5,183 ✭✭✭✭
    #76
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    Re: Living with no generator!

    At this point you are after any weak cells, so the better the reading ... the more you know about the state of your batteries.
    Recommend you get a better SG meter.
    For the interim it will give you a relative reading and show you the spread of those 24 cells. You should decide on one cell to use as your 'Pilot' cell. Use it to give you a quick battery sample of overall state of charge, ie it indicates if corrective action may be needed after more sampling to confirm that single sample.
     
    KID #51B  4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM
    CL#29032 FW 2126/ 2073/ 2133 175A E-Panel WBjr, 3 x 4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM 
    Cotek ST1500W 24V Inverter,OmniCharge 3024,
    2 x Cisco WRT54GL i/c DD-WRT Rtr & Bridge,
    Eu3/2/1000i Gens, 1680W & E-Panel/WBjr to come, CL #647 asleep
    West Chilcotin, BC, Canada
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  • Out There
    Out There Solar Expert Posts: 96 ✭✭✭✭
    #77
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    Re: Living with no generator!

    I'm at work, right now, so I don't have anything to compare. I'm looking for a better hydrometer. In what range should I be looking? There seem to be a lot for use in brewing and vinting… what sets what I need apart? Is there a particular scale for which I should be looking?
    Learning curve, here…. I appreciate all the help.
    -Brian

    How about this? http://www.amazon.com/H-B-Instrument-Battery-Hydrometer-Siphon/dp/B00551Q3PK/ref=sr_1_66?s=industrial&ie=UTF8&qid=1392144518&sr=1-66&keywords=hydrometer+specific+gravity
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  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    #78
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    Re: Living with no generator!

    You need to go to an auto parts supply store and get a glass tube float-type hydrometer for batteries. Should be about $10.
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  • Out There
    Out There Solar Expert Posts: 96 ✭✭✭✭
    #79
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    Re: Living with no generator!

    I thought those were "crap". I was looking at a Freas hydrometer, a couple of weeks ago. Hard to get hold of. If the cheap one will work, I may already be set.
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  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    #80
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    Re: Living with no generator!
    Out There wrote: »
    I thought those were "crap". I was looking at a Freas hydrometer, a couple of weeks ago. Hard to get hold of. If the cheap one will work, I may already be set.

    Some can be crap, others not. I've done well with the cheap ones, but not the really cheap ones!
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  • techntrek
    techntrek Solar Expert Posts: 1,372 ✭✭✭
    #81
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    Re: Living with no generator!
    upa123 wrote: »
    I agree, that is my only beef with my Yamaha ef2000is inverter gennie, wish it had a integral fuel pump like the Hondas so you can hook up an extended run tank without trying to rely on gravity alone. ...

    Exactly. I think I can stick a Y in the fuel line after the cutoff valve but I'm worried the emission control system on the main tank will mess with the draw from the 2nd tank.
    4.5 kw APC UPS powered by a Prius, 12 kw Generac, Honda EU3000is
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  • mike95490
    mike95490 Solar Expert Posts: 9,583 ✭✭✭✭✭
    #82
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    Re: Living with no generator!

    You need a hydrometer, and a thermometer. And the temperature correction chart. All 3 used together will give you an accurate reading.
    Powerfab top of pole PV mount | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
    || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
    || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

    solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
    gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister ,

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  • Out There
    Out There Solar Expert Posts: 96 ✭✭✭✭
    #83
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    Re: Living with no generator!

    UPDATE (and question): The new generator is quite a little jewel, despite the cheap-ness and country of origin. We've been able to keep up on the battery SOC; in the mornings it has usually dipped into the 25.8 - 25.9 volt range, so bringing it up to around 27 volts has been relatively easy. I say relatively, because I've had to learn a sequence similar to the Apollo 13 astronauts in powering things up. We discussed numerous methods of getting my little 650 watt Honda to power the battery charger in the Trace SW4024. I think I see, now, why I had so much difficulty with that.
    The new generator is rated for 3500 continuous watts and up to 4400 watts (surge). When the SW switches over to the generator, it transfers all the house loads onto the generator AND initiates a battery charge. We (this forum) discussed, at great length, the menu setting for the battery charger. It seemed to be a consensus that the charging amps = input amps (menu item 10 for anyone with one of these older inverters). Even with that setting brought all the way down to 1 amp, the 650 watt generator could not handle it.
    Enter the new generator. With all (and I do mean ALL) household loads disconnected, the SW's charger, when it initiates a charge, bogs that 3500/4400 watt generator down - so much so that it often throws the generator's breaker. I've learned a little patience (and my patience is usually inversely related to my schedule), however. If I initiate the charge sequence in the "Charge" mode, as opposed to having the inverter in the "On" or "Search" modes, it seems slightly more willing to keep running… getting out of that "surge" area and into a maintainable output. Once it's been up and running for 5 or 10 minutes in that mode, I switch it over to "search" mode. When it has re-acquired the generator and successfully kept up with the charger for a little while, I then slowly throw the breakers for house loads (one at a time). If, however, my refrigerator happens to be running and the well pump kicks on, there's too much of a current draw for the little generator to handle and off it goes, again.
    Here's the way this thing is set up: there is a 110v duplex (20 amp) and a 120/240v L14-30p (30 amp) outlet on the generator. I currently have it configured to run off one leg of the 240v outlet - thus I'm only protected to 15 amps. Since I only deal with 120 volts, what do you think of me switching to the 20 amp 120v outlet?
    -Brian
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  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    #84
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    Re: Living with no generator!

    The basic problem is the backward function of the inverter's charger: it hits the gen with maximum demand initially, then adjusts. Hence the bog down of a 3500 Watt gen. Anything you can do to reduce loads on the gen until the charger stabilizes will be helpful.

    As for the 120/240 configuration there is no help there unless you can pull from both of the legs at once. In essence you're only able to use half the gen's capacity (120 VAC * 15 Amps = 1800 Watts). The 20 Amp 120 VAC outlet isn't really going to give you more power, it just has a higher current rating against overload (4400 surge / 2 = 2200 Watts / 120 Volts = 18 Amps).

    If you want to get clever you can provide an accessory transfer switch to take the loads off the inverter and put them on one half of the gen while the other half is dedicated to charging the batteries.
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  • Out There
    Out There Solar Expert Posts: 96 ✭✭✭✭
    #85
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    Re: Living with no generator!
    Cariboocoot wrote: »
    If you want to get clever you can provide an accessory transfer switch to take the loads off the inverter and put them on one half of the gen while the other half is dedicated to charging the batteries.

    …an idea I've contemplated. I wonder if I already have something I can use to do this???
    Thanks!
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  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    #86
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    Re: Living with no generator!
    Out There wrote: »
    …an idea I've contemplated. I wonder if I already have something I can use to do this???
    Thanks!

    Depends on how you're wired now. So long as the connectors and wire can take the full current, you can do it by unplugging the house from the inverter and plugging it into the gen.
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  • vtmaps
    vtmaps Solar Expert Posts: 3,741 ✭✭✭✭
    #87
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    Re: Living with no generator!

    From Post #84 in this thread:
    Cariboocoot wrote: »
    The basic problem is the backward function of the inverter's charger: it hits the gen with maximum demand initially, then adjusts. Hence the bog down of a 3500 Watt gen.

    From Post #33 in this thread:
    vtmaps wrote: »
    I'm not familiar with your trace sw4024.... but some inverters (Magnum?) draw full power at first and then scale down to the input amps that you specify. If the trace does that, it would explain your problems.

    Regarding your unbalanced loading of your split phase, the best (but not cheap) option is to use a step-down transformer.

    --vtMaps
    4 X 235watt Samsung, Midnite ePanel, Outback VFX3524 FM60 & mate, 4 Interstate L16, trimetric, Honda eu2000i
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  • Vic
    Vic Solar Expert Posts: 3,208 ✭✭✭✭
    #88
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    Re: Living with no generator!

    Hi Out There, Thanks for the Update.

    Sorry to hear that your Trace SW 4024's Charger function does NOT behave the way I described. The Charger in your Inverter certainly behaves differently than any of the other SW and SW Plus chargers that I have had my hands on -- Trace SW 5548s (Stacked), and SW 4048s, and this behavior is also different from the Xantrex SW Plus 5548es here. ALL of these other SWs ramp up the initial Charge current slowly. and begin regulation of the Charger current (Amps) setting when this ramp reaches the set current.

    It is possible that there was a Firmware rev that changed this Charger behavior in the Trace SW inverters ... do not know, but the slamming of the generator with high initial current is not good. These chargers CAN regulate charger Voltage AND Current. To not regulate initial charger current to a low value, especially when a value of 1 has been set in the Charger menu is a real flaw.

    I do not have the manual for Trace SW inverters handy here. It is possible that there is another setting that might moderate this high initial current behavior The SW Plus, with which I am most familiar, is not very different in the electronics inside, I believe -- it has a few added functions, and is FCC B rated, but basically the same, and is well-behaved while charging. Even tested the charger with the EU2000is genset, which was happy with one of the SW Pluses charging.

    All of that said, have not tried a small genset with a battery that is in the 50% SOC range, for example. Perhaps this would not be as good a situation, but would GUESS that the inverters here would be happy with that on a small generator.

    Do not know. It is always a bit difficult being remote from an issue and not being hands-on.

    The one issue that seemingly all of these bi-directional inverters may have with smaller gensets, appears to be that when the charger reaches a battery voltage where voltage regulation begins, the charger can dump some current into the generator's AC output, as a way of regulating voltage. This can drag small gensets out of voltage regulation, to the extent that the AC from the gtenset falls out of qualification, and the generator AC gets dropped. The inverter then begins a new qualification, connects to the genset, and usually goes through the sequence again. In these cases, larger generators just ride through.

    More opinions, Good Luck, Vic
    Off Grid - Two systems -- 4 SW+ 5548 Inverters, Surrette 4KS25 1280 AH X2@48V, 11.1 KW STC PV, 4X MidNite Classic 150 w/ WBjrs, Beta KID on S-530s, MX-60s, MN Bkrs/Boxes.  25 KVA Polyphase Kubota diesel,  Honda Eu6500isa,  Eu3000is-es, Eu2000,  Eu1000 gensets.  Thanks Wind-Sun for this great Forum.
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  • mike95490
    mike95490 Solar Expert Posts: 9,583 ✭✭✭✭✭
    #89
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    Re: Living with no generator!

    possibly engaging a smaller charger, to "pump up" the batteries a bit, before engaging the integral hi-amp charger, would lessen the surge. There are some 5-10-20-40A "automotive" chargers that you could possibly configure @ 10Ato get you through the hump.
    Powerfab top of pole PV mount | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
    || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
    || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

    solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
    gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister ,

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  • Blackcherry04
    Blackcherry04 Solar Expert Posts: 2,490 ✭✭✭
    #90
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    Re: Living with no generator!

    This is always how it is with mix matched equipment and features, I'v suffered from it for years. You keep dealing with one problem to another. Now your probably going to need to spend $450 or so on a transformer ( as VT said ) or your generator will not last long with that kind of imbalance. You can size panels and Charge Controllers all day long , but without the rest of the puzzle all fitting together you don't have much. I have piles of " almost " solar junk I bought and for one reason or the other it didn't work like I wanted it to.

    A stand alone charger would work, but to get one to do what you need will be a lot more than $450. A IOTA will work, but it won't have enough AMP's I don't think with the generator / charger you have.
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  • Out There
    Out There Solar Expert Posts: 96 ✭✭✭✭
    #91
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    Re: Living with no generator!

    (another) update: We must've P.O.'d Mother Nature…. we got dumped on over this weekend, with 8-9" of heavy, wet, snow. Nonetheless, I was able to get a few things done. 1) Specific gravities on all my cells, showed 1.275 (+/- less than one gradation on the hydrometer), so I'm happy about that. One disturbing discovery, though: one of my batteries has a loose lug. They mold the head of a bolt into the lead on the terminals. This one is pulling loose. The batteries are only a little over a month old, so I'm wondering what (if anything) Costco will do to help remedy the situation? 2) I re-wired the inverter input to accept power from the 20 amp/120 volt outlet (as opposed to the 30 amp/240 volt I was using). What I discovered, was that even though it still bogs down a bit when the charger kicks on, this configuration did not result in the breaker popping. In fact, I was able to run the charger, the well pump, the refrigerator, freezer, vacuum cleaner, cordless tool battery charger, some lights and an orbital sander (some of these simultaneously) without the breaker popping. 3) My little Chinese generator did all of that and ran nearly all day long on less than a (4 gal) tank of gasoline, which is currently priced more than $1.50 below what I pay for LPG.
    Because of the nasty weather, I just stayed in and worked on built-in bookshelves… which made my wife quite happy. So despite the weather, we had a productive weekend.
    -Brian
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