Living with no generator!

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  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    #32
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    Re: Living with no generator!

    There's something wrong if your Honda gen can't supply 1 Amp AC. There's no magic here: 120 VAC is 120 VAC and 1 Amp is 1 Amp and even a Honda 1000 can supply 7 Amps.

    Is it possible the AC IN to the SW4024 is supposed to be 240 VAC? That would shut the Honda down instantly.

    This, btw, is why we keep stand-alone battery chargers on hand: redundant charge source. Even a cheap 12 Volt automotive one can be made to push up a 24 Volt bank half at a time.

    As it is your batteries are being tortured to death. That 'high' Voltage of just over 24 is more like the lowest you want to see on a 24 Volt system.

    BTW it was -35C here this morning. It's warmed up to -30C though. :roll:
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  • vtmaps
    vtmaps Solar Expert Posts: 3,741 ✭✭✭✭
    #33
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    Re: Living with no generator!
    Out There wrote: »
    1) The Trace SW4024 AC Amps in goes only to "1"; not to "0"
    2) The little Honda that couldn't still can't - not even at one amp.

    I'm not familiar with your trace sw4024.... but some inverters (Magnum?) draw full power at first and then scale down to the input amps that you specify. If the trace does that, it would explain your problems.

    --vtMaps
    4 X 235watt Samsung, Midnite ePanel, Outback VFX3524 FM60 & mate, 4 Interstate L16, trimetric, Honda eu2000i
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  • Vic
    Vic Solar Expert Posts: 3,208 ✭✭✭✭
    #34
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    Re: Living with no generator!

    These older Trace/Xantrex SW 4024s should not start high and ramp down, the SW pluses here start low and ramp up.

    AND, with the Charger AC input set at 1, (or really any other value) this ramp up should have little or no over-current, IMO.

    But, it will be very important to have ALL AC loads on the 4024 OFF.

    Recall that this generator is 650 Watts, but still should be good for about 4 Amps at 120 V, unless it has been heavily used (up), and/or the altitude is quite high -- most gensets de-rate at 3% per 1000 feet elevation MSL.

    Do not know about this inverter ... Most neighbors here have Trace SW 4048s, with a few exceptions, have some experience with the Trace SW Inverters, BUT, never with a generator this small. Normally, when charging from a genset, these SW and SW+ inverters are very well behaved.

    As stated earlier, O T has a new generator inbound, due later this week, if the weather cooperates, it may be online late this week.

    Opinions, Good Luck O T Vic
    Off Grid - Two systems -- 4 SW+ 5548 Inverters, Surrette 4KS25 1280 AH X2@48V, 11.1 KW STC PV, 4X MidNite Classic 150 w/ WBjrs, Beta KID on S-530s, MX-60s, MN Bkrs/Boxes.  25 KVA Polyphase Kubota diesel,  Honda Eu6500isa,  Eu3000is-es, Eu2000,  Eu1000 gensets.  Thanks Wind-Sun for this great Forum.
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  • Out There
    Out There Solar Expert Posts: 96 ✭✭✭✭
    #35
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    Re: Living with no generator!

    The SW4024 is strictly a 120v inverter - in and out. The 120v AC in is labeled as such… so it's not 240vAC. I think the issue I'm having has to do with the variance in frequency associated with the generator slowing when the load was placed on it. It tried and tried. Each time it tried I could hear the relays clicking and see the lights change momentarily. It would switch right back. There were no loads - at all - on the output side. The AC load center breaker was off. Each night I have only a small window in which I can work on this. One step at a time. I tried what Vic suggested last night. Tonight I'll just have to see what kind of time I have.
    Cold is cold, and the primary difference in temps below freezing has to do with exposure time. I realize I'm not in the coldest part of the country. I've lived in Maine, Massachusetts, Missouri and eastern Washington during winter months. It's part of the reason I live in Western Washington, now. But trying to work on this in the cold with a headlamp flashlight at night is not something I want to do a whole lot of. I know the necessity. I also know the only load on the batteries, right now, is the inverter in search mode.
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  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    #36
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    Re: Living with no generator!

    Well that sounds like when the gen is being loaded it slows, skewing the frequency. The inverter then decides the frequency is "out of spec" and drops the gen. So if there is a way to adjust the frequency tolerance of the inverter that may help.
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  • Out There
    Out There Solar Expert Posts: 96 ✭✭✭✭
    #37
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    Re: Living with no generator!

    Yeah… Sun Dog and I tossed this around and I came to that conclusion, myself. The Trace SW is old enough that the voltage range is adjustable, but the frequency is not - unlike the later incarnation of this inverter under the Xantrex name. It's supposed to be sunny and clear for two days, then partially cloudy and then sunny again before the snow comes on Sunday. The new "back-up" generator should be here by Monday or Tuesday. We'll leave stuff unplugged and hope the PV can get the voltage up a bit more. As I mentioned, earlier today, without the refer on there and with a mostly cloudy day, yesterday, we got up to 25.1 volts. I'm hoping the cloudless sky can give me a bit more by tonight.
    -Brian
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  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,447 admin
    #38
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    Re: Living with no generator!

    Try placing a100 watt filament lamp on the genset first to stabilize its output. Then try loading with the SW inverter.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
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  • Sun Dog
    Sun Dog Solar Expert Posts: 115 ✭✭
    #39
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    Re: Living with no generator!
    Out There wrote: »
    Discoveries from last night:

    1) The Trace SW4024 AC Amps in goes only to "1"; not to "0"
    2) The little Honda that couldn't still can't - not even at one amp.
    3) Even though the little refer doesn't seem to draw a lot, without it plugged in and despite yesterday being overcast, I got to a higher voltage (25.1v) on the batteries than we've been in a week.

    Today is cold for here (low 20s - in fact, we had a new record low yesterday), but it's clear and predicted to remain so for the next few days. Then we're due to have some snow on Saturday night or Sunday. I know that's not as cold as some places… but it is, for here. I'm hoping for some decent charging - hopefully enough to get us through until the arrival of the new generator. I have a few more options to try, as well. The cold also allows us to use Mother Nature as our great big refrigerator.
    Wishing for the best!
    -Brian

    You would need a kill-a-watt type meter to know for sure but there is a good chance that little refer consumes ~1kWh/day. In a off-grid system that likely means you need to generate 1.5kWh or more, so it is a problem. Sorry to hear you couldn't get the little Honda to cooperate.

    I know working in the cold with a flashlight/headlights isn't a lot of fun but it would still be a good idea to split up your bank and use a 12V charger with the Honda to get juice back into those cells. You and your batteries will be happy you did ;)

    Good luck!
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  • techntrek
    techntrek Solar Expert Posts: 1,372 ✭✭✭
    #40
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    Re: Living with no generator!

    I agree, get a charger (or your truck) on those 12 volt pairings.
    4.5 kw APC UPS powered by a Prius, 12 kw Generac, Honda EU3000is
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  • icarus
    icarus Solar Expert Posts: 5,436 ✭✭✭✭
    #41
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    Re: Living with no generator!

    There is a really nice Onan 4 kw CCK on the Bellingham Craigslist as of yesterday, for $200!

    Icarus

    http://bellingham.craigslist.org/tls/4307808097.html
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  • mike95490
    mike95490 Solar Expert Posts: 9,583 ✭✭✭✭✭
    #42
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    Re: Living with no generator!

    Today at Costco, Champion 2000w inverter generator, 53db, stackable to 4Kw. $429. Wow !
    Powerfab top of pole PV mount | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
    || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
    || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

    solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
    gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister ,

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  • Out There
    Out There Solar Expert Posts: 96 ✭✭✭✭
    #43
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    Re: Living with no generator!
    icarus wrote: »
    There is a really nice Onan 4 kw CCK on the Bellingham Craigslist as of yesterday, for $200!

    Icarus

    For those of you familiar with these: any idea if this can be (or is) run on LPG?
    -Brian
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  • Out There
    Out There Solar Expert Posts: 96 ✭✭✭✭
    #44
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    Re: Living with no generator!
    techntrek wrote: »
    I agree, get a charger (or your truck) on those 12 volt pairings.
    Started this last night. Got about 2-1/2 hours on the first pair. Will work on the second pair tonight.
    -Brian
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  • Blackcherry04
    Blackcherry04 Solar Expert Posts: 2,490 ✭✭✭
    #45
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    Re: Living with no generator!
    Out There wrote: »
    For those of you familiar with these: any idea if this can be (or is) run on LPG?
    -Brian
    If it's not a lot of motor homes use them and they can be converted. It's a good generator, had them in the marine world for lots of years. The last one I bought was in 1992, the first in 1967 so don't know much about the newer ones or if they are the same.
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  • Out There
    Out There Solar Expert Posts: 96 ✭✭✭✭
    #46
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    Re: Living with no generator!
    Blackcherry04 wrote: »
    If it's not a lot of motor homes use them and they can be converted. It's a good generator, had them in the marine world for lots of years. The last one I bought was in 1992, the first in 1967 so don't know much about the newer ones or if they are the same.
    I've just heard from the seller. It's set up to run gasoline. No response on age or number of running hours. What other questions should I be asking about this unit?
    -Brian

    UPDATE: Seller indicates the unit did, indeed, come from a motor home and it's from the 70s. How did Icarus know it was a 4kw? Are all of these 4kw? I really know nothing about Onan generators. 2 cylinder engines? Gas hogs? What's involved in converting over to LPG? And….. how do I convince the spousal unit to go for something like this with no warranty (something she's on the warpath about, since our Generac was never used but had no warranty when we put it in)?
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  • Blackcherry04
    Blackcherry04 Solar Expert Posts: 2,490 ✭✭✭
    #47
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    Re: Living with no generator!
    Out There wrote: »
    I've just heard from the seller. It's set up to run gasoline. No response on age or number of running hours. What other questions should I be asking about this unit?
    -Brian
    Wow, I wouldn't know what to tell you on that. I doubt it's hooked up, so it would be a shot in the dark. You kind of have to think of them as two things. The generator end and the Engine. There still parts around for them and lots of used ones. The same parts are on many models a 3.5 KW, 4 kw, 5 kw and a 6 KW will have a lot of the same parts in most cases, all they did was change the windings ?? or the circuit breaker size and Jet in the carburetor. Some are bored for different pistons and the valves are different on the Propane models. The oldest did not have a starter and used the generator as the starter.

    Lot's on E-bay, this is 3.600 rpm though

    http://www.ebay.com/itm/Cummins-Onan-RV-2-5-LP-Genset-/271389006028
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  • Out There
    Out There Solar Expert Posts: 96 ✭✭✭✭
    #48
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    Re: Living with no generator!

    I've exchanged several emails with the seller. I'm not sure I trust what I'm hearing. They're selling because of a need for money. They took it from an non-running RV they bought from "a friend" who also needed money. When I got an address and directions, I realized the part of town in which they live (not the best part of town…. I'm just sayin' ). I was directed to call when I reached the street end of the drive, that they would meet me and that they had enough people to lift and load it into my truck. It sounds like they're looking for drug money. They say the "friend" serviced the unit last year. The picture shows the unit sitting on an oil-soaked pallet. If there's different valves needed to convert to LPG, this sounds like (potentially) a lot of trouble. Not to mention trying to convince my wife to invest in something with no warranty! I guess I need to pick my battles.
    -Brian
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  • Blackcherry04
    Blackcherry04 Solar Expert Posts: 2,490 ✭✭✭
    #49
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    Re: Living with no generator!

    I am not trying to scare you off. It could run 20 years with regular valves, I just know that some / some years were different for propane. That was back when gas had lead, maybe now it's not important or they use better stuff. There use to be a poster that had experience rebuilding them. What I know is very limited, last one I looked at was locked up and wouldn't even turn over and the guy swore it ran.

    When they are marineized they had a water jacket on them and I converted once to use stationary. It worked great, I bought it used.
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  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    #50
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    Re: Living with no generator!
    Blackcherry04 wrote: »
    I am not trying to scare you off. It could run 20 years with regular valves, I just know that some / some years were different for propane. That was back when gas had lead, maybe now it's not important or they use better stuff. There use to be a poster that had experience rebuilding them. What I know is very limited, last one I looked at was locked up and wouldn't even turn over and the guy swore it ran.

    When they are marineized they had a water jacket on them and I converted once to use stationary. It worked great, I bought it used.

    The phrase used in the car hobby is "ran when parked". :p

    I don't think I'd go for it. I've got one of these monster Onans in the shed and they are big, heavy, and fuel-hungry. I'd sooner buy a cheap, new gen for occasional use.
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  • Out There
    Out There Solar Expert Posts: 96 ✭✭✭✭
    #51
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    Re: Living with no generator!
    Cariboocoot wrote: »
    The phrase used in the car hobby is "ran when parked". :p

    I don't think I'd go for it. I've got one of these monster Onans in the shed and they are big, heavy, and fuel-hungry. I'd sooner buy a cheap, new gen for occasional use.

    I've weighed the pros vs. the cons and - at least for now - I think the cons are ahead on the Onan. If money were not an issue, I might consider it as a project/back-up to a back-up. For now, I think I'll stick with the one I found. 4400 w (max) dual fuel (gas/LPG) with 12 vdc, duplex 120v outlets and a 30 amp outlet switchable between 120/240 vac (utilizes both generator windings). It's electric start, too, and I should be able to configure it for remote start capability (on LPG - manual choke required for gasoline).
    -Brian
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  • westbranch
    westbranch Solar Expert Posts: 5,183 ✭✭✭✭
    #52
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    Re: Living with no generator!

    Like they say about buying food in the supermarket.."Don't shop when you are hungry, 'cause you will impulse buy"
     
    KID #51B  4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM
    CL#29032 FW 2126/ 2073/ 2133 175A E-Panel WBjr, 3 x 4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM 
    Cotek ST1500W 24V Inverter,OmniCharge 3024,
    2 x Cisco WRT54GL i/c DD-WRT Rtr & Bridge,
    Eu3/2/1000i Gens, 1680W & E-Panel/WBjr to come, CL #647 asleep
    West Chilcotin, BC, Canada
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  • Out There
    Out There Solar Expert Posts: 96 ✭✭✭✭
    #53
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    Re: Living with no generator!

    I'm curious: Has anyone here modified a Honda type generator ignition (off/on/start) to be remotely started from the inverter?
    I'm thinking I'm going to need more than the two wires :-( I ran for the Generac. AND another relay!
    -Brian
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  • CDN_VT
    CDN_VT Solar Expert Posts: 492 ✭✭✭
    #54
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    Re: Living with no generator!

    http://www.generatorsales.com/triple-fuel-generators.asp

    Buy one that has been converted , buy it once & large enough to grow . USE it well & DON'T ABUSE , this should last you 15 + years .3000 kw is what Id be looking into.
    What happened to your old gen set , what failed & who's make was it ? you get the quality of what you pay for. 1970 onan might have a parts supply problem as anything that old is like me , OLD & In THE WAY ;)
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  • Out There
    Out There Solar Expert Posts: 96 ✭✭✭✭
    #55
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    Re: Living with no generator!
    CDN_VT wrote: »
    What happened to your old gen set , what failed & who's make was it ? you get the quality of what you pay for. 1970 onan might have a parts supply problem as anything that old is like me , OLD & In THE WAY ;)

    My generator was a Generac Guardian 8kw which, after only approximately 145 hours, decided to eat a part of the exhaust valve. It had never been hooked up or run when I purchased it, but it was out of warranty due to elapsed time.
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  • icarus
    icarus Solar Expert Posts: 5,436 ✭✭✭✭
    #56
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    Re: Living with no generator!
    Out There wrote: »
    For those of you familiar with these: any idea if this can be (or is) run on LPG?
    -Brian

    You can get a conversion kit for one. They run great on LP. It looks like it is a vacu-flow model which is REALY ice if you are going to enclose it.

    Tony
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  • icarus
    icarus Solar Expert Posts: 5,436 ✭✭✭✭
    #57
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    Re: Living with no generator!

    Your issues with the seller not withstanding, CCKs are tanks! It may be old, but if it starts, runs doesn't blow smoke, for $200 I'd buy it in a heart beat if I was looking for a genny. (not me...I got too many.) I did e mail the guy to find out it was a 4 kw. The basic CCk model has been around for decades. Different genny windings, different rpms make different outputs. I have a 10 kw CCKb. The only difference is that it runs at 3600 rpm ( real screamer!) My 1948 CCK 3500 is essentially the same unit, only excited differently and running at 1800 rpm. The smaller CCKs will run forever on a full load.

    Brian Rassmusen at Rassmusun marine in Bellingham is a pretty good go to guy for older Onans. most older Onan parts are readily available. If you ch ange out the point ignition system, and run it on LP you probably won't need a part for years! ignition parts are all I have ever bought. (save a fuel pump!) fr any of mine. Large oil sump, pressure lubed, big engine relative to the load, but not the most fuel efficient, but it will out live you.

    Icarus
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  • chevenstein
    chevenstein Solar Expert Posts: 100 ✭✭
    #58
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    Re: Living with no generator!
    icarus wrote: »
    Your issues with the seller not withstanding, CCKs are tanks! It may be old, but if it starts, runs doesn't blow smoke, for $200 I'd buy it in a heart beat if I was looking for a genny. (not me...I got too many.) I did e mail the guy to find out it was a 4 kw. The basic CCk model has been around for decades. Different genny windings, different rpms make different outputs. I have a 10 kw CCKb. The only difference is that it runs at 3600 rpm ( real screamer!) My 1948 CCK 3500 is essentially the same unit, only excited differently and running at 1800 rpm. The smaller CCKs will run forever on a full load.

    Brian Rassmusen at Rassmusun marine in Bellingham is a pretty good go to guy for older Onans. most older Onan parts are readily available. If you ch ange out the point ignition system, and run it on LP you probably won't need a part for years! ignition parts are all I have ever bought. (save a fuel pump!) fr any of mine. Large oil sump, pressure lubed, big engine relative to the load, but not the most fuel efficient, but it will out live you.

    Icarus

    Here here Icarus. Keeping at least one genset around as a spare even if it's not fuel efficient, not auto-start, and not set up for LP gas is probably a good idea for someone completely off grid. I'm completely off grid and this is what I do.

    Keeping in mind that I love working on old machinery, I have a fleet of old gensets around precisely so that if my auto-start 7KW LP primary unit fails I will not be in this situation. I've owned two gasoline Onan CCKs (6.5kW model) and been very happy with them; paid $100 for one, $160 for the other. I'd also recommend the old Kohler K series powered units, I've had two and both came with LPG fuel systems and cost me $75 a piece not running (but needing little to get running). ALL of these machines run and make good power now and all of them are > 20 years old (they're also fuel hogs!). Remember, I don't have them to use them; I have them in case I ever need to use them hoping I won't. Sometimes I resell one on craigslist and buy another at an auction or something but that's just me liking to tinker. The best is getting a frantic call from a relative who is going into the second day of 10 degree weather in a blackout after an ice storm and being able to throw a couple of gensets in your truck and going to help them. I think I was supplying power to half my family after the December storm in '08!

    I've never had a problem buying and selling this type of equipment on craigslist, but then again I'm a big, scary looking guy (people tell me I look like a serial killer) driving a big truck with a big dog in it. If I'm really concerned I'll bring another big, scary looking guy with me! I've probably bought and sold over 100 items through it over the past several years and never had a real problem (some BS, but I'm pretty good at seeing through people).
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  • Ken Marsh
    Ken Marsh Solar Expert Posts: 114 ✭✭✭✭
    #59
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    Re: Living with no generator!

    Have an old gas fueled CCK mounted on a small trailer and keep a length of 8 inch flex duct with it.
    If we get a house out of heat and/or electricity we can hook the duct to the air discharge of the gen set,
    throw the other end in a window and hook the electricity to the service.
    Might as well use its inefficiency for something.

    We have or I should say used to have an ornery utility Co.
    In some places they supply both elect and Gas.
    They required a disconnect be issued to get your deposit back.
    Once a disconnect order was issued it would be implemented regardless.
    If you bought a house or changed renters a disconnect would probably be issued
    because the people wanted their deposit back.
    The disconnect would always come last thing on Friday after the office was closed
    as much as two months after you bought the house.
    There was no way you could get it turned on until the office opened next Monday
    and after you payed a double deposit since they would have you on their black list.
    I have been standing out in the drive with $ in hand when the service man arrived
    only to have him walk around me and jerk the meter off the wall.

    As you might detect I got a little pissed.
    This happened repeatably.
    That was the origin of this portable genset.
    I must say the Utility company no longer does surprise disconnects.
    But the genset still comes into good use occasionally.
    It is reliable and quiet.
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  • Out There
    Out There Solar Expert Posts: 96 ✭✭✭✭
    #60
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    Re: Living with no generator!

    I appreciate the sentiments, guys… honestly! I just don't have an extra $200 right now. Over the last 3-4 months, I've been through purchasing a house, re-installing an off-grid power system (including purchasing new batteries which I'm now damaging because my generator bit the dust) and dealing with family/Christmas. I'm wiped out, financially. Then to have the Generac fail…. uhg!
    I love to tinker, too…. and I'd LOVE to have a gen set like this Onan as my back-up, or my back-up's back-up. I just can't justify it right now. If someone were to hand me $200 right now, I'd have credit card bills I'd have to pay with it (including my Amazon card, with which I just purchased this new gen set). If one of you wants the Onan, and is willing to pay shipping, I'd gladly go get it from these lovely folks who don't want me coming up the driveway to their house. I just can't do it for myself.
    Thanks, as always for your comments, though. I really enjoy all that I'm learning on this forum.
    -Brian
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  • Saggys
    Saggys Solar Expert Posts: 189 ✭✭✭
    #61
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    Re: Living with no generator!
    icarus wrote: »
    You can get a conversion kit for one. They run great on LP. It looks like it is a vacu-flow model which is REALY ice if you are going to enclose it.

    Tony
    Where can I get an LP conversion kit for my Onan? I have 2 Onan LK's one is LP, the other is gasoline and I would like to convert it.
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