Need help choosing a generator

NorthGuy

Re: Need help choosing a generator

Sun Dog wrote: »

Would you just unbolt it from the frame and then tape it up or is there more to it than that?

You need to open a "yellow round cover" and remove white jumper wire which is connected to a green wire.

westbranch

Re: Need help choosing a generator

NG, I was thinking of running it and powering a skill and or table saw as well as charging etc. all at the same time... It helps 'set' the rings etc. by keeping it revving up and down rather than babying it by letting it run at a constant rate. Remember to change the oil after a week or so (10 - 15 hrs) to remove any contaminants.

hth

NorthGuy

Re: Need help choosing a generator

westbranch wrote: »

NG, I was thinking of running it and powering a skill and or table saw as well as charging etc. all at the same time... It helps 'set' the rings etc. by keeping it revving up and down rather than babying it by letting it run at a constant rate. Remember to change the oil after a week or so (10 - 15 hrs) to remove any contaminants.

THank you. I don't think it can start my table saw while charging batteries, but I'll make sure I give it a good workout with variable loads.

NorthGuy

Re: Need help choosing a generator

I wanted to thank everyone who participated. It worked out great. I bought it on sale in Canadian Tire and tested it today. It is not as loud as I expected it to be. Despite mechanical governor, it seems to react on load changes faster than my big Generac controlled by a computer. I've run it for 1.5 hours in a snowy blizzard and haven't had any problem with it. Consumed over a gallon of gas during that time.

I set my XW to accept 100 to 135V and it didn't drop the Champion even once. It could handle pumps, microwaves, no problems. I set AC1 breaker size in XW to 25A, which made the Champion to work between 4 and 5 kW. It mastered charging currents between 40 and 60A most of the time, so it was charging batteries rather quickly.

The voltage was at 127V. A little bit too high, but it goes down to 120 when load goes above 5kW to 5.3kW or so. Frequency kept steady at 62 Hz, but again when load goes above 5kW it goes down to 59 Hz. For now, I decided not to adjust this. My computers, fridge and other loads don't seem to mind. 20 year old big CFL lamps blink all the time, but new efficient ones don't.

Sun Dog

Re: Need help choosing a generator

Glad to hear that it is doing the job for you, and without any adjustments. While they may not be a Honda EU series I have friends who have put hundreds of hours on their Champion without issue. Change the oil and learn how to adjust the valves and I'm sure it will serve you well.

Timinator

Re: Need help choosing a generator

If you're not looking to dump a bunch of money into an inverter generator I'd really consider a generator that Costco is selling right now; it's 7000 continuous watts with 9000 starting, it's $599, electric start and since it's from Costco, you've got about the best warranty out there should it ever fail. I have one I bought last year for our main house as backup and it's a nice little generator. I also have twin Yamaha 2000W inverter generators that I use for my cabin to run AC during the summer. I only use one of them during the winter to keep up the charge on the solar system if needed. If you go Inverter, don't forget to look at the Yamaha inverter generators. They are actually rated a bit better than the Honda's right now. I am very happy with my two.

northerner

Re: Need help choosing a generator

NorthGuy wrote: »

I wanted to thank everyone who participated. It worked out great. I bought it on sale in Canadian Tire and tested it today. It is not as loud as I expected it to be. Despite mechanical governor, it seems to react on load changes faster than my big Generac controlled by a computer. I've run it for 1.5 hours in a snowy blizzard and haven't had any problem with it. Consumed over a gallon of gas during that time.

I set my XW to accept 100 to 135V and it didn't drop the Champion even once. It could handle pumps, microwaves, no problems. I set AC1 breaker size in XW to 25A, which made the Champion to work between 4 and 5 kW. It mastered charging currents between 40 and 60A most of the time, so it was charging batteries rather quickly.

Glad to hear the new generator is working well for you! Looks like a relatively inexpensive option for occasional use.

Speaking of a a snowy blizzard, we had the same thing here yesterday and I had to run my Honda for a couple of hours to give the batteries a boost (yesterday and day before). I haven't seen the solar insolation this low in the last couple of days, since a previous bout with the clouds around the middle of March. But we're back in the sunshine today!:D

BB.

Re: Need help choosing a generator

Timinator wrote: »

If you're not looking to dump a bunch of money into an inverter generator I'd really consider a generator that Costco is selling right now; it's 7000 continuous watts with 9000 starting, it's $599, electric start and since it's from Costco, you've got about the best warranty out there should it ever fail. I have one I bought last year for our main house as backup and it's a nice little generator...

I believe Timinator's generator is a Champion (they are at our local Costco's). I think it is this one:

http://www.championpowerequipment.com/generators/41532/

As always, look at fuel usage vs your needed emergency loads:

Up to 8 hours run time at 50% load
Fuel Capacity = 5.9 gal. (22.4 L)

• 50% load * 7 kW * 8 hours * 1/5.9 gallons of fuel = 4.7 kWH per gallon of fuel

That is very fuel efficient--However if you don't need 3.5 kW to run your home's loads--A Yamaha or Honda 1.6-2kW class inverter generator will run ~400 watt load for a couple days on ~6 gallons of fuel (~9 hours per gallon of fuel for the Honda eu2000i 1.6kW genset @ 400 watt load).

• 9.6 hours * 0.400 kW * 1/1 gallon of fuel = 3.8 kWH per gallon of fuel

So, not as fuel efficient as a non-inverter generator running at >50% of rated load--But for small/light loads over a few days of power outage, fuel storage/purchases is a huge issue.

-Bill

PS: I think both those run time per gallon of fuel are still a bit on the "optimistic" side (10% high or so???).

Cariboocoot

Re: Need help choosing a generator

What? Something worked out right? In Canada?

Well I'll be mogger-jawed!

BTW, our Costcos up here don't always have the same merchandise and/or prices your have. Sometimes they're good, sometimes they're awful. Often 'regular' stores beat them on price, including good ol' CT when they've got a sale on.

NorthGuy

Re: Need help choosing a generator

BB. wrote: »

I believe Timinator's generator is a Champion (they are at our local Costco's). I think it is this one:

http://www.championpowerequipment.com/generators/41532/

There's a Canadian version of this.

Apparently, this is the same generator. If you compare US to Canadian models, you'll see that US models have higher power rating, but shorter run-times. I don't think because they're different, but because rating standards differ.

If you calculate fuel efficiency from these numbers, it's the same.

Cariboocoot wrote: »

BTW, our Costcos up here don't always have the same merchandise and/or prices your have. Sometimes they're good, sometimes they're awful. Often 'regular' stores beat them on price, including good ol' CT when they've got a sale on.

I agree. I visited one Costco store and prices didn't look that great at all, especially if you factor in membership fees.

Although, if they sold L-16 batteris for $150 as they do in the US, it would be worth it.

Rybren

Re: Need help choosing a generator

The Costco's in Ottawa don't carry any Deep Cycle batteries and said that they can't get any in

BB.

Re: Need help choosing a generator

Actually, they are different models:

www.championpowerequipment.com/generators/41532/ (US Model--listed as Heavy duty)

Wireless remote start
Engine 439cc Champion OHV
Weight 232.8 lb. (105.8 kg)

http://www.championpowerequipment.com/generators/41351/ (Canadian Model--listed as Medium duty)

Engine 389cc Champion OHV
Weight 197.3 lb. (89.5 kg)

So, they are quite different (don't know if the alternator heads are the same or different--part number systems are different between US and Canadian models)... What that means in real life--Don't know.

-Bill

PS: Our Costcos don't carry deep cycle batteries either in SF Bay Area (that I have seen).

NorthGuy

Re: Need help choosing a generator

BB. wrote: »

Actually, they are different models:

My mistake. I guess they have different lines of generators for US and Canada, which just look similar, but may have different engines or alternators.

BB.

Re: Need help choosing a generator

Found that there were different models on the Canadian Tire Website in your post--A ("hidden"?) comment had the information:

Celtic
Paradise, Newfoundland

This is not a Heavy Duty Generator/Model 41351
Posted February 19, 2013

I went to the Champion web site and checked this model, it is listed under medium duty, not heavy duty.
A little bit of misrepresentation.
I also checked a lot of reviews on many websites, and Champion generators are rated as good as any. There are some problems with all Generators on the market, if you research you will find that out for yourselves. If I can get this one on sale I would buy it.

I almost will not buy anything these days unless there are free and open comments about the product(s) being sold.

Similar with news stories--"Our Paper's website"--You look for the news/facts/better reports in the comments. The articles themselves are worthless about 1/2 the time.

-Bill

BB.

Re: Need help choosing a generator

I should add--Here is the Champion website with their various offerings:

http://www.championpowerequipment.com/products/generators/

-Bill

ChrisOlson

Re: Need help choosing a generator

BB. wrote: »

This is not a Heavy Duty Generator/Model 41351

I don't know that Heavy Duty vs Medium Duty means much in this regard. CPE just groups them that way on their website based on size of the unit.

I have just never seen a "bad" Champion generator. They have Generac GP-series generators beat hands down as far as durability. One of our off-grid friends in Canada has a 6,500 watt one that he used as his primary standby generator for six years. It would've still been fine except for the fact that he leaves it sitting outside and he pre-heated it with propane space heater when it was 30 below zero and set it on fire. But even after six years of off-grid duty it was still working fine before he burned it up.
--
Chris

northerner

Re: Need help choosing a generator

ChrisOlson wrote: »

One of our off-grid friends in Canada has a 6,500 watt one that he used as his primary standby generator for six years. It would've still been fine except for the fact that he leaves it sitting outside and he pre-heated it with propane space heater when it was 30 below zero and set it on fire. But even after six years of off-grid duty it was still working fine before he burned it up.
--
Chris

That brings up a good question Chris. Does anyone know how well a portable propane tank will work in extreme cold? I'm planning to put in a 3-4 kw gen set, and thinking of running on it on propane for now. I was thinking of using a 100 lb tank. Will there be enough vapor pressure to fuel the gen set, in -30 to -45C temperatures? Or is preheating a necessity?

ChrisOlson

Re: Need help choosing a generator

northerner wrote: »

I was thinking of using a 100 lb tank. Will there be enough vapor pressure to fuel the gen set, in -30 to -45C temperatures? Or is preheating a necessity?

I could never get enough pressure from a 500 gallon tank to run our EcoGen at those temps. That's why I went to gasoline. I think you would have to keep the tank in someplace warm for it to work.
--
Chris

icarus

Re: Need help choosing a generator

At -35-40 you will virtually no vapor pressure from a 100# tank. It depends on the Btu requirement, but at those temps it is going to be hard to fuel much of anything.



Temperature
* Vapor Pressure
(oF) (oC) (psig) (bar)
-44*1) -42.2 0 0
-30 -34.4 6.8 0.5
-20 -28.9 11.5 0.8
-10 -23.3 17.5 1.2
0 -17.8 24.5 1.7
10 -12.2 34 2.3
20 -6.7 42 2.9
30 -1.1 53 3.7
40 4.4 65 4.5
50 10.0 78 5.4
60 15.6 93 6.4
70 21.1 110 7.6
80 26.7 128 8.8
90 32.2 150 10.3
100 37.8 177 12.2



http://www.chegg.com/homework-help/questions-and-answers/calculate-vapor-pressure-propane-35-c-q1922903

I know that at -40 my fridge works fine, but the oven struggles, and the demand water heater won't fire properly. My tanks re in a shed so they. Seem what protected from the real cold, maybe running ~10f above ambient.

Tony

northerner

Re: Need help choosing a generator

ChrisOlson wrote: »

I could never get enough pressure from a 500 gallon tank to run our EcoGen at those temps. That's why I went to gasoline. I think you would have to keep the tank in someplace warm for it to work.
--
Chris

Sounds like it's best to stick with gasoline (vs propane). Downside is the constant refilling, and figuring a way to operate the choke in cold weather, if attempting to automate the whole process. Plus gasoline doesn't burn as clean as propane. Maybe I should consider running out a natural gas line, and going that route. Thanks for the feedback!

BB.

Re: Need help choosing a generator

I believe that Chris said the Champions (at least some of them) have full automatic choke. More information in this thread:

A Couple of generator questions.

And regarding propane tank size to generator size vs ambient temperatures:

BB. wrote: »

... Regarding cold weather and LP... If you have a vapor draw from your tank, the fuel must "boil off" to feed the genset. The boiling of the LP lowers the temperature of the gas and requires migration of heat from outside the tank to the liquid in the tank to keep the pressure up (over atmospheric pressure+pressure drop of system--something like >10-15 PSI).

For example, this website has several charts that relate generator size to BTU per hour to a tank's ability to source XXXX BTU per hour at XX temperature. [dead link, dead site. -BB 4/21/13]

A 7.5 kW generator uses around 155,000 BTU/H at full power.

This Generac sizing document (PDF) shows that at 0F, a person would need a 250 gallon or larger tank. Note that as the tank empties, there is less surface area between the fuel and the outside atmosphere, so the vaporization rate will fall as the tank contains less liquid fuel (and buried tanks will have their own pluses and minuses around this issue). I have read about people building a fire under a propane tank to raise the pressure during a cold snap--but I do not know if that was real or just an urban legend.

There are, of course, engines that will use liquid propane and have a vaporizer mounted on the engine block and use the coolant water for vaporizing the fuel.

The other issue is the temperature of the engine itself when starting. There is some sort of heater required to keep the engine above ~freezing (as I understand, not an issue where I live) for easy starting.

Again, back to Chris Olsen, he has posted a lot about his trials of off grid living and, for his ice box location in northern Wisconsin--And between diesel, propane, and gasoline--He found gasoline to the best solution for his home generator (with a very good quality generator).

Dairyland Windpower - Chris & Kristin Olson's off-grid home

-Bill

northerner

Re: Need help choosing a generator

BB. wrote: »

I believe that Chris said the Champions (at least some of them) have full automatic choke. More information in this thread:

A Couple of generator questions.

And regarding propane tank size to generator size vs ambient temperatures:

-Bill

Thanks Bill! The one link about the charts that relate gen size to BTU per hour for a tank, must be an old reference, as it is no longer there. Sounds like propane is not a good way to go in a super cold place in any case. I do have the option to go with natural gas, which will be much cheaper anyway, but I will have to put in an underground line. I ran a NG line to my workshop for a heater there, so I know what I'm up against. Just not sure how long I will be at this location? I will also look into automatic chokes, just in case I decide to go with gasoline for now. I was planning to get a Yamaha or Honda, but may also consider the Champion, if I do go the gasoline route.

mike95490

Re: Need help choosing a generator

icarus wrote: »

... I know that at -40 my fridge works fine, but the oven struggles, ......

uh, at -40, I'd expect the fridge to be just fine

inetdog

Re: Need help choosing a generator

mike95490 wrote: »

uh, at -40, I'd expect the fridge to be just fine

But if you put your fridge outside in the winter, all of the food in it will freeze. :-)
I have not found any commercial refrigerators with built-in heater.

vtmaps

Re: Need help choosing a generator

icarus wrote: »

My tanks are in a shed so they. Seem what protected from the real cold, maybe running ~10f above ambient.

Is it safe (or legal) to have propane tanks in a shed? It must be a substantial and tightly enclosed shed in order to keep the temp above ambient. --vtMaps

BB.

Re: Need help choosing a generator

Technically, every frost free refrigerator has a ~500-600 watt heater inside to defrost the evaporator(s).

I don't know of any that use the defrost heaters to help stabilize the refrigerator temperature in sub freezing weather.

-Bill

northerner

Re: Need help choosing a generator

vtmaps wrote: »

Is it safe (or legal) to have propane tanks in a shed? It must be a substantial and tightly enclosed shed in order to keep the temp above ambient. --vtMaps

The main concern is that it could be a serious potential hazard, and likely not legal either. You would need plenty of heat and ventilation to keep the tank well above ambient temperature and somewhat safer than in a tight enclosure.

A company makes tank warmers, but are they really safe to use? Here is the link:

http://www.powerblanket.com/gas-cylinder-warmers/

They only guarantee results down to -40C, and no mention about wind chill, as I know that wind can be a much bigger factor than just temperature alone. Also, they draw about 95 watts for a 20 lb tank, and are not cheap to buy either.

Cariboocoot

Re: Need help choosing a generator

You mean all these decades I've been storing propane tanks in sheds they've been blowing up, obliterating my property, and killing me? I hadn't noticed. Good thing we have bureaucrats to tell us what we're doing wrong otherwise I wouldn't know I've been dead all these years.

Tank warmers work, to some extent. Propane tanks at -40 don't, really. Even with a warmer on the function can be erratic.

But you'd better wait for some safety-minded politicians to pass a regulations to tell you that; don't take my word for it.

vtmaps

Re: Need help choosing a generator

Cariboocoot wrote: »

You mean all these decades I've been storing propane tanks in sheds they've been blowing up, obliterating my property, and killing me? I hadn't noticed.

I don't think having your tanks in a shed is ALWAYS unsafe .... how tight is the shed? If your shed is tight enough to keep the temp 10º above ambient, I would have some safety concerns.

Tony & Marc, are your tanks (in the shed) portable, or do you have them filled by a propane truck that comes onto your property? Around here the propane companies will not fill a tank in a shed. In fact, they wont even fill any tanks larger than 100 gallons if they are within 10 ft of a building (let alone in a building).

--vtMaps

northerner

Re: Need help choosing a generator

Cariboocoot wrote: »

You mean all these decades I've been storing propane tanks in sheds they've been blowing up, obliterating my property, and killing me? I hadn't noticed. Good thing we have bureaucrats to tell us what we're doing wrong otherwise I wouldn't know I've been dead all these years.

You must have 9 lives, at least!:p