So much for electric cars being "green" !

2

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  • CariboocootCariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭
    Re: So much for electric cars being "green" !
    Lee Dodge wrote: »
    Not too many of us drive the logging roads to get to town. :D

    Then you've never really lived! :p
  • ggunnggunn Solar Expert Posts: 1,973 ✭✭✭
    Re: So much for electric cars being "green" !

    "Greenness" isn't the only reason for electric vehicles. Petroleum is a dwindling resource, and means of transportation that use other sources of energy is going to be necessary in the long run. New tech takes a long time to develop, so we need to start now.
  • nielniel Solar Expert Posts: 10,300 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: So much for electric cars being "green" !

    yes petrol is dwindling and pricing is going up, but you'd think cars were the dwindling resource as they are skyrocketing. they don't need to jack gas prices up as the cars are getting further and further out of reach.:cry:
  • oil pan 4oil pan 4 Solar Expert Posts: 766 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: So much for electric cars being "green" !

    Don't forget about the radio active waste that comes out of the ground along with rare earth element ore used to make the magnets in the electric motors.

    Solar hybrid gasoline generator, 7kw gas, 180 watts of solar, Morningstar 15 amp MPPT, group 31 AGM, 900 watt kisae inverter.

    Solar roof top GMC suburban, a normal 3/4 ton suburban with 180 watts of panels on the roof and 10 amp genasun MPPT, 2000w samlex pure sine wave inverter, 12v gast and ARB air compressors.

  • ggunnggunn Solar Expert Posts: 1,973 ✭✭✭
    Re: So much for electric cars being "green" !
    As I said, where I am there is no EV that makes sense. The initial cost, the long-distance only driving, the bad climate all add up to "no go".
    What has climate got to do with it?
  • solar_davesolar_dave Solar Expert Posts: 2,367 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: So much for electric cars being "green" !
    ggunn wrote: »
    What has climate got to do with it?

    Most EV batteries perform poorly in sub zero temps, a reduction of range of 25-40% is not uncommon. Plus the use of electric heating of the cabin further reduces range.
  • CariboocootCariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭
    Re: So much for electric cars being "green" !
    ggunn wrote: »
    What has climate got to do with it?

    ggunn, this ain't Texas!
    Most ordinary vehicles tend to drop dead in our Winters. Even the brand new ones. Tell me an electric is going to work at -40 and produce enough heat to clear the windscreen and be able to get through the snow. I still won't believe it. Now if any of these EV promoters wants to lend me one for a Winter's test I'll do it. Providing they're also willing to pick up the tab for the tow calls and repairs.

    Anyone who thinks this isn't so has not lived here.
  • BB.BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 31,061 admin
    Re: So much for electric cars being "green" !

    And from another post, Leafs have been losing battery capacity (early aging) in Arizona/Texas heat (upwards of 20%).

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • Lee DodgeLee Dodge Solar Expert Posts: 112 ✭✭
    Re: So much for electric cars being "green" !
    ggunn, this ain't Texas!
    Most ordinary vehicles tend to drop dead in our Winters. Even the brand new ones. Tell me an electric is going to work at -40 and produce enough heat to clear the windscreen and be able to get through the snow. I still won't believe it. Now if any of these EV promoters wants to lend me one for a Winter's test I'll do it. Providing they're also willing to pick up the tab for the tow calls and repairs.

    Anyone who thinks this isn't so has not lived here.

    You don't need an electric vehicle. You need a new place to live. ;)
  • westbranchwestbranch Solar Expert Posts: 5,183 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: So much for electric cars being "green" !

    Coot is 'virtualy ' iin a city with ~ 1hr drive to town,
    my drive is 3 hrs & ~150 mile one way in the summer, but it is my choice to live in 'the sticks'... with the best view in the world! See my Avatar....
     
    KID #51B  4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM
    CL#29032 FW 2126/ 2073/ 2133 175A E-Panel WBjr, 3 x 4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM 
    Cotek ST1500W 24V Inverter,OmniCharge 3024,
    2 x Cisco WRT54GL i/c DD-WRT Rtr & Bridge,
    Eu3/2/1000i Gens, 1680W & E-Panel/WBjr to come, CL #647 asleep
    West Chilcotin, BC, Canada
  • CDN_VTCDN_VT Solar Expert Posts: 492 ✭✭✭
    Re: So much for electric cars being "green" !
    westbranch wrote: »
    Coot is 'virtualy ' iin a city with ~ 1hr drive to town,
    my drive is 3 hrs & ~150 mile one way in the summer, but it is my choice to live in 'the sticks'... with the best view in the world! See my Avatar....

    I see your view Westbank & raise you mine .

    I'll post it when it's not raining (yah!!! , dry as a popcorn's fluff here) I'll get a current shot of the inside passage from the ranch.

    European diesels are quite , very fuel mileage efficient. My French Renault in Europe is better than 60 MPG (gallon as in imperial ) I'd need to look up L/Km.

    This is not from estimates , but my records. Car in Great Britain.
    EV's are a total expensive trial.

    Basic oil driven car say 30grand , 6 years is 50% devalued so 15 grand. my oil driven car is needing its tank filled again , trade in is 15G.
    EV = 30G 6 years , say 50% devalued , but needs a replacement battery , trade in is 15 grand MINUS the retail install of a Battery.

    VT
    Next edit should have a nice fall picture
  • nielniel Solar Expert Posts: 10,300 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: So much for electric cars being "green" !
    Lee Dodge wrote: »
    You don't need an electric vehicle. You need a new place to live. ;)

    i think it would be unfair to make everybody move to accommodate current ev capabilities. that would also take away from innovation.
  • inetdoginetdog Solar Expert Posts: 3,123 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: So much for electric cars being "green" !
    niel wrote: »
    i think it would be unfair to make everybody move to accommodate current ev capabilities. that would also take away from innovation.
    The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.

    -- George Bernard Shaw

    I have feelings on both sides of that pronouncement!
    SMA SB 3000, old BP panels.
  • Eric LEric L Solar Expert Posts: 262 ✭✭
    Re: So much for electric cars being "green" !

    The plot thickens with this Norwegian report, as independent reviewers have found some problems. Among other things:
    When [the study's authors] calculated the materials that went into making electric motors for cars, they accidentally used a static electric motor (the sort of thing you’d use to drive a large milling machine or industrial lathe) instead of a small, compact motor that would be found in a Nissan Leaf or similar car. Their calculations were for a 1,000 kg motor, the motor in the Nissan Leaf weighs 53kg.
    As you can imagine, an error of this magnitude could skew the figures rather badly.
    So why does it matter?
    Well, their entire prognosis rests on the amounts of materials used and the ability to re-cycle those materials efficiently and economically at the end of the car’s life.

    and,
    The report also ‘casually misjudges’ the size, weight and copper content of the frequency inverter, the bit of an electric car that transforms the AC current fed in from the electricity supply, into the DC current stored in the battery.
    These units do indeed contain copper but the report happened to measure a large, industrial scale frequency inverter you’d find in a factory tool shop. The factory one contains 36kg of copper, the one in the Nissan Leaf is 6.2 kg

    I was curious if the study could really be this bad. You can click through to the study's Supporting Information Document S2 (bottom of the HTML version of the paper accessible through the BBC's link), and sure enough: 35.5 kg for the EV motor charging inverter (along with 34.4 kg aluminum for the inverter alone).
    Sheesh.

    Another allegation:
    They then analysed battery chemistry which no EV maker uses, battery capacity that no plug in car uses, then skewed the figures of how much coal is burned to generate the power to charge the non existent batteries in the mythical car.
  • bill von novakbill von novak Solar Expert Posts: 891 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: So much for electric cars being "green" !
    Most ordinary vehicles tend to drop dead in our Winters. Even the brand new ones. Tell me an electric is going to work at -40 and produce enough heat to clear the windscreen and be able to get through the snow. I still won't believe it.

    That's actually not a problem for vehicles near power sources. EV's often have battery temperature management systems that will heat _or_ cool the batteries, and will precool (or preheat) the cabin. However, it is an issue for cars parked long periods of time in cold areas away from power, say a car parked in a small train station for two days.

    Interestingly the same solution that works for IC engines (leaving an outlet available for a block/battery heater) works for EV's.
  • CariboocootCariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭
    Re: So much for electric cars being "green" !
    That's actually not a problem for vehicles near power sources. EV's often have battery temperature management systems that will heat _or_ cool the batteries, and will precool (or preheat) the cabin. However, it is an issue for cars parked long periods of time in cold areas away from power, say a car parked in a small train station for two days.

    Interestingly the same solution that works for IC engines (leaving an outlet available for a block/battery heater) works for EV's.

    Or any vehicle parked at the store for an hour at -40. Unlike places such as Juno, Alaska we don't have plug-in parking meters.

    Like I said, if any company wants to hand one over to me for trial we'll see how well it works in real cold. But I'm sure not going to pony up tens of thousands of dollars for what is still in my view an experimental vehicle.
  • bill von novakbill von novak Solar Expert Posts: 891 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: So much for electric cars being "green" !
    Or any vehicle parked at the store for an hour at -40.

    That short amount of time isn't a big deal. The packs in cars with active thermal management systems are relatively well insulated and their thermal mass is quite high.

    For days, though, either the TMS is going to take more power than it saves and/or will not be able to keep the pack a reasonable temperature without an external power source.
    Like I said, if any company wants to hand one over to me for trial we'll see how well it works in real cold. But I'm sure not going to pony up tens of thousands of dollars for what is still in my view an experimental vehicle.

    That's OK. With around 50,000 BEV's and PHEV's on the road (some of which are in Fairbanks, AK) there's a lot of data being collected. It's likely that PHEV's will have some significant advantages in colder climates. (One reason being that ICE engines, being fairly inefficient, are great heat generators.)
  • solar_davesolar_dave Solar Expert Posts: 2,367 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: So much for electric cars being "green" !
    Or any vehicle parked at the store for an hour at -40. Unlike places such as Juno, Alaska we don't have plug-in parking meters.

    Like I said, if any company wants to hand one over to me for trial we'll see how well it works in real cold. But I'm sure not going to pony up tens of thousands of dollars for what is still in my view an experimental vehicle.

    Plug in cars are not for everyone in every situation. Those of us below the 49 th parallel with reasonable temps or a car with active thermal a management and an external power source will do OK. I can only speak about the Volt, but it will start the ICE if temps are too low to thermally condition the battery and the passenger compartment as a side benefit. On the other hand lots of Leaf owners have had a major reduction in range in AZ and other southern states from battery overheat degradation, upwards of 20% in the first year of ownership. Our Volts still show full range after 18 months on the oldest one and near 12 months on the other. In fact if any thing they have actually gotten better with use and our improvement in driving skills. Definitely an advantage to active thermal management of the battery.
  • CariboocootCariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭
    Re: So much for electric cars being "green" !

    But the power for that thermal management of the battery has to come from somewhere.

    Like Daylight Savings Time, it works best at a particular latitude and those who thought it up didn't think above or below that point. :p
  • techntrektechntrek Solar Expert Posts: 1,372 ✭✭✭
    Re: So much for electric cars being "green" !
    Eric L wrote: »
    The plot thickens with this Norwegian report, as independent reviewers have found some problems. Among other things:
    ...
    I was curious if the study could really be this bad. You can click through to the study's Supporting Information Document S2 (bottom of the HTML version of the paper accessible through the BBC's link), and sure enough: 35.5 kg for the EV motor charging inverter (along with 34.4 kg aluminum for the inverter alone).
    Sheesh.
    ...

    Ouch! Major problems...
    4.5 kw APC UPS powered by a Prius, 12 kw Generac, Honda EU3000is
  • solar_davesolar_dave Solar Expert Posts: 2,367 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: So much for electric cars being "green" !
    But the power for that thermal management of the battery has to come from somewhere.

    Like Daylight Savings Time, it works best at a particular latitude and those who thought it up didn't think above or below that point. :p

    So true, no free lunch. The usage is pretty minimal, in hot AZ summer days it run at about 800 wats every 3-4 hours for about 10 minutes. Our worse month of consumption this year was about 472 kWh in June for charging both Volts, but more typically it is 300 KWh. You can see the consumption on the link below , select history, and MTU number 4.
  • bill von novakbill von novak Solar Expert Posts: 891 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: So much for electric cars being "green" !
    But the power for that thermal management of the battery has to come from somewhere.

    Definitely; comes from the same place that the power for block heaters come from. But that is also definitely wasted energy. Like the man said, there ain't no such thing as a free lunch.
  • solar_davesolar_dave Solar Expert Posts: 2,367 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: So much for electric cars being "green" !

    So conservatively the 472kWh equate to about 1700 miles. At 40 mpg that is about 45 gallons X $4, or $160 of gasoline. The cars that were replaced got more like 20 mpg on average. If those watts were purchased off peak at $0.05 kWh a load of money was saved. Of course we charge off the solar system, so no charge. ;)
  • dreesdrees Solar Expert Posts: 481 ✭✭✭
    Re: So much for electric cars being "green" !
    solar_dave wrote: »
    So true, no free lunch. The usage is pretty minimal, in hot AZ summer days it run at about 800 wats every 3-4 hours for about 10 minutes. Our worse month of consumption this year was about 472 kWh in June for charging both Volts, but more typically it is 300 KWh. You can see the consumption on the link below , select history, and MTU number 4.
    800W for 10 minutes every 3 hours comes to nearly exactly 1 kWh / day. Times 2 = 60 kWh. Even at 25c/kWh that's only $15/mo for both cars.

    So where did the extra 100 kWh of energy go in June?

    A kWh / day would be pretty good if it's keeping the battery in the mid 70F range instead of 100F that you typically see in AZ.
  • mtdocmtdoc Solar Expert Posts: 600 ✭✭
    Re: So much for electric cars being "green" !

    Dave you're really making it hard for me to resist a trip to the local Chevy dealer...

    95% of my daily driving is less than 20 miles. My commute is 12 miles round trip. With a Volt I would likely burn very little gasoline.

    The cold weather discussion is interesting. My short am winter commute is usually in subfreezing temps. It's 6 miles, 1900 feet downhill to work so the heated seats in my Subaru are a must since my car does not usually warm up until I arrive. I can just about coast down hill to work so I suspect I'd use a chunk of the Volts charge heating the car up for my am commute. :roll:

    I do worry about the lack of 4 wheel drive. I've heard that the Volts do pretty well in snow/ice though. I do have a 4WD truck for use on the heavy snow days.
  • dreesdrees Solar Expert Posts: 481 ✭✭✭
    Re: So much for electric cars being "green" !

    Some good snow tires should eliminate any issue with driving in snow unless it's really deep. I don't know at what temp the Volt will kick on the engine to help warm things up, worth researching that if running without gas in the winter is important.
  • mtdocmtdoc Solar Expert Posts: 600 ✭✭
    Re: So much for electric cars being "green" !
    drees wrote: »
    Some good snow tires should eliminate any issue with driving in snow unless it's really deep. I don't know at what temp the Volt will kick on the engine to help warm things up, worth researching that if running without gas in the winter is important.

    Yeah - the problem is that there's a bit of county road that is often not plowed very quicky - so driving through a foot of new snow is not uncommon. The Volts look to have very little ground clearance - all that aerodynamic fairing around the base of the car.

    I've never been a fan of studded tires in the winter - even when I lived in northern Vermont. Too much hassle changing them out, etc. A good AWD or 4WD and some snow/ice driving skills usually suffice. I might feel different if I end up with a Volt though - or just garage it when the snow is falling and drive my truck.
  • CariboocootCariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭
    Re: So much for electric cars being "green" !

    In case anyone was wondering why I would like to be able to run an electric car:
    Electricity: $0.10 per kW hour
    Gasoline: $4.94 per US gallon just now. $5.58 down around Vancouver.

    Like I said before, they would make great sense in the Vancouver area! People should be buying them instead of the gas-guzzling SUV's they go for.

    Up here they're just not right. Yet.
  • solar_davesolar_dave Solar Expert Posts: 2,367 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: So much for electric cars being "green" !
    mtdoc wrote: »
    Dave you're really making it hard for me to resist a trip to the local Chevy dealer...

    95% of my daily driving is less than 20 miles. My commute is 12 miles round trip. With a Volt I would likely burn very little gasoline.

    The cold weather discussion is interesting. My short am winter commute is usually in subfreezing temps. It's 6 miles, 1900 feet downhill to work so the heated seats in my Subaru are a must since my car does not usually warm up until I arrive. I can just about coast down hill to work so I suspect I'd use a chunk of the Volts charge heating the car up for my am commute. :roll:

    I do worry about the lack of 4 wheel drive. I've heard that the Volts do pretty well in snow/ice though. I do have a 4WD truck for use on the heavy snow days.

    I have put no gas in my 2012 since February from a longer trip to Vegas and the wife's 2011 was received in May of 2011 and finally had a stale fuel burn of 5 gallons and fill up last month. We just buy very little gas anymore. You want to know more about winter performance of the Volt try gm-volt dot com, the site is not affiliated with General Motors and is just an owner site. There are several owners there from Ontario, Michigan, New England that can guide you better than me on the winter aspects. I will just say the battery range is reduced and is dependent on temp, cabin heat and the like but 12 miles is way doable even in winter. From what I remember the range in winter is about 25-30 miles. Let me say the heated seats will drive you out of the car on a Volt and if you do use cabin heat it is almost instant response. The 2013 has a feature to start the ICE under driver control to get that heat from some gasoline burn.
  • solar_davesolar_dave Solar Expert Posts: 2,367 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: So much for electric cars being "green" !
    drees wrote: »
    800W for 10 minutes every 3 hours comes to nearly exactly 1 kWh / day. Times 2 = 60 kWh. Even at 25c/kWh that's only $15/mo for both cars.

    So where did the extra 100 kWh of energy go in June?

    A kWh / day would be pretty good if it's keeping the battery in the mid 70F range instead of 100F that you typically see in AZ.

    That is our total consumption, driving, thermal management ... so running the AC while driving lowers the miles per kWh too. Since we normally start from a covered garage we get away with ECO mode on the AC most days, but if the car is outside in a hot soak then full blast Comfort mode is required for at least a few minutes. ECO/Auto mode is pretty effective in controlling the amount power used.

    Also the once every 3 hours is more like 4 hours normally, and the times are longer at night than during peak afternoon heat times. It does keep the battery in the safe thermal operating range for optimal life.

    Of course our power comes off the grid tie solar array, so the costs are extremely low. Most people charge off peak and have TOU plans, here that means $0.055 per kWh summer rates.
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