So much for electric cars being "green" !

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  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    #62
    Re: So much for electric cars being "green" !

    The "driving through snow" aspect is rather separate from the "electric in Winter" aspect as there are many conventional vehicles that are no good on snowy/icy roads.

    Chevy Volt owners should probably put some fuel stabilizer in their tanks. :D
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  • solar_dave
    solar_dave Solar Expert Posts: 2,397 ✭✭✭✭
    #63
    Re: So much for electric cars being "green" !
    Cariboocoot wrote: »
    The "driving through snow" aspect is rather separate from the "electric in Winter" aspect as there are many conventional vehicles that are no good on snowy/icy roads.

    Chevy Volt owners should probably put some fuel stabilizer in their tanks. :D

    The car does a maintenance burn of 10 minutes every 6 weeks or so to keep the ICE lubricated. And if you don't add gas the car will do a stale fuel burn at like 12 months. GM recommends premium fuel and no stabilizer. The premium has a high volatility components to help in longevity. They also add pressure to the fuel tank to keep the fuel in suspension. Personally I would love to find some non alcohol mix fuel to use but the law mandates it as an additive here.

    I hear the Blizaks (sp) are good on the Volt, and the Volt is pretty heavy as well with a good front to rear ratio.
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  • mtdoc
    mtdoc Solar Expert Posts: 600 ✭✭
    #64
    Re: So much for electric cars being "green" !
    Cariboocoot wrote: »
    The "driving through snow" aspect is rather separate from the "electric in Winter" aspect as there are many conventional vehicles that are no good on snowy/icy roads.


    The Via Motors truck in the 4wd version would be my ideal car. With it I could elimate the need for 2 cars - truck for towing and hauling and deep snow - car with better mpg for commute, longer trips, etc. I suspect many others have similar needs. The problem is justifying the $80 K + price tag. Until these type of vehicle are affordable to more people they will continue to have a niche market - even when gas is over $5.00 a gallon.
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  • techntrek
    techntrek Solar Expert Posts: 1,372 ✭✭✭
    #65
    Re: So much for electric cars being "green" !

    No comments on the flawed study?! I thought ya'll would have jumped all over that (see my last comment which was in response to a post about the flawed study).
    4.5 kw APC UPS powered by a Prius, 12 kw Generac, Honda EU3000is
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  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    #66
    Re: So much for electric cars being "green" !
    techntrek wrote: »
    No comments on the flawed study?! I thought ya'll would have jumped all over that (see my last comment which was in response to a post about the flawed study).

    All studies are flawed, a man once told me. They're basically designed to prove whatever results the sponsor wants. Not to be considered scientific or accurate at all. :roll:
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  • ggunn
    ggunn Solar Expert Posts: 1,973 ✭✭✭
    #67
    Re: So much for electric cars being "green" !
    Cariboocoot wrote: »
    All studies are flawed, a man once told me. They're basically designed to prove whatever results the sponsor wants. Not to be considered scientific or accurate at all. :roll:
    I don't think that is necessarily true. There are studies and then there are studies. You have to look under the hood to see which are which. Studies paid for by tobacco companies which "show" smoking is not harmful to your health, of course, are suspect.
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  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,613 admin
    #68
    Re: So much for electric cars being "green" !

    I like to listen to old radio shows--And you can hear the old cigarette ads having doctors reporting one brand does not cause problems (throat irritation, etc.) vs another brand.

    Who knows if these were even real vs just some ad man writing copy.

    But then we have this:

    News: The deeper issues behind Italy's conviction of earthquake scientists
    An Italian court this week sentenced six scientists and former government official to six years in prison and $10.2 million in court costs and damages, convicting them of manslaughter for giving what the court described as a falsely reassuring statement in advance of an earthquake that killed 309 people. The quake, which hit the town of L’Aquila in 2009, came after the geophysicists told city officials on a risk-assessment commission that they were unable to make a detailed prediction about whether ongoing tremors might indicate a coming disaster. The court seems to consider this akin to criminal negligence, which as many observers have pointed out fundamentally misunderstands how seismology works. One of the convicted scientists, 74-year-old physicist Claudio Evo, called the decision “medieval.”
    ...
    There are other theories. The Economist quotes a California-based scientist who thinks the Italian physicists got “trapped” into giving a “yes/no answer” because they were trying to downplay a local amateur’s claims of being able to predict earthquakes. A long Nature essay discusses the common misunderstanding that scientific risk assessment is the same thing as a prediction. New Scientists hints that L’Aquila officials, overwhelmed with the burden of protecting against earthquakes in an ancient fault-line city that is poorly equipped to handle them, may have shrugged their decision-making responsibilities onto the scientific advisers.

    Don't know the details--But it sounds like the scientists gave assurances that the minor tremblers before the main quake indicated that stresses were being relieved so a major quake was not likely to happen. When most other geologists believe minor quakes, in general, indicate an increased risk of seismic activity. (not that there is any real ability to predict quakes accurately).

    People are looking for reports that confirm their wishes/desires (conformation bias). We know a lot of about building earthquake resistant structures and the problems of unreinforced masonry buildings... Would the people have demolished the historic center of the town, churches, etc. and build stick frame housing if told that there is a risk of quakes almost anywhere given a long enough time scale?

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
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  • inetdog
    inetdog Solar Expert Posts: 3,123 ✭✭✭✭
    #69
    Re: So much for electric cars being "green" !
    BB. wrote: »

    But then we have this:

    News: The deeper issues behind Italy's conviction of earthquake scientists
    l

    And to cover the other side, there are reports of countries (South Africa?) which have or are considering laws which make a weather forecaster liable for economic damages caused by mistakenly predicting a major storm which then does not actually happen!

    I am reminded for some early attempts in one US state to define the value of pi as 3 to simplify land survey computations.
    SMA SB 3000, old BP panels.
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  • mtdoc
    mtdoc Solar Expert Posts: 600 ✭✭
    #70
    Re: So much for electric cars being "green" !

    The general public's lack of understanding of science always astounds me....:cry:
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  • ggunn
    ggunn Solar Expert Posts: 1,973 ✭✭✭
    #71
    Re: So much for electric cars being "green" !
    mtdoc wrote: »
    The general public's lack of understanding of science always astounds me....:cry:
    It used to astound me but not any more. One thing to remember is that 50% of the people you will meet in your lifetime will have IQ's of less than 100. Ever see the movie Idiocracy? At first I thought it was one of the funniest movies I had ever seen, but after some thought it occurred to me that it was a horror movie.
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  • niel
    niel Solar Expert Posts: 10,300 ✭✭✭✭
    #72
    Re: So much for electric cars being "green" !

    you guys have reminded me of what i just read in solar musher's signature line on the midnite forum. i did not look to see if he has it here too.

    "We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid."

    my thought was we must have allot of hard workers out there.:confused:
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  • solar_dave
    solar_dave Solar Expert Posts: 2,397 ✭✭✭✭
    #73
    Re: So much for electric cars being "green" !
    niel wrote: »
    you guys have reminded me of what i just read in solar musher's signature line on the midnite forum. i did not look to see if he has it here too.

    "We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid."

    my thought was we must have allot of hard workers out there.:confused:

    I like the one by Robert A. Heinlein
    “Ignorance is curable, stupid is forever.”

    Robert Anson Heinlein was an American novelist and science fiction writer. Often called "the dean of science fiction writers", he is one of the most popular, influential, and controversial authors of "hard science fiction". He set a high standard for science and engineering plausibility and helped to raise the genre's standards of literary quality. He was the first writer to break into mainstream, general magazines such as The Saturday Evening Post, in the late 1940s, with unvarnished science fiction. He was among the first authors of bestselling, novel-length science fiction in the modern, mass-market era.
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  • nsaspook
    nsaspook Solar Expert Posts: 396 ✭✭✭
    #74
    Re: So much for electric cars being "green" !

    http://updates.jalopnik.com/post/34669789863/more-than-a-dozen-fisker-karma-hybrids-caught-fire-and
    Approximately 16 of the $100,000+ Fisker Karma extended-range luxury hybrids were parked in Port Newark, New Jersey last night when water from Hurricane Sandy’s storm surge apparently breached the port and submerged the vehicles. As Jalopnik has exclusively learned, the cars then caught fire and burned to the ground.

    This looks like a serious problem in the battery wiring and control system water sealing.
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  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    #75
    Re: So much for electric cars being "green" !
    nsaspook wrote: »
    http://updates.jalopnik.com/post/34669789863/more-than-a-dozen-fisker-karma-hybrids-caught-fire-and



    This looks like a serious problem in the battery wiring and control system water sealing.

    Nah, it says right in the owner's manual "Do Not Immerse". :p
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  • inetdog
    inetdog Solar Expert Posts: 3,123 ✭✭✭✭
    #76
    Re: So much for electric cars being "green" !
    rollandelliott wrote: »
    The original article is kind of flaky too. Since when are copper and aluminum toxic minerals, I'm pretty sure nickel is pretty stable too?
    "In addition, producing batteries and electric motors requires a lot of toxic minerals such as nickel, copper and aluminium."

    It all depends on where it ends up and in what form. The metals themselves are not particularly toxic, fortunately. I would hate to have to worry about the toxicity of an omelette made in a copper pan. :-). But manufacturing can deliberately or inadvertently create other chemical forms.
    In the US copper-based wood protectants (copper-organic compounds) are no longer generally available because of their toxic effects, primarily on fish when they end up in the water.
    Metallic nickel is pretty inert, but some nickel compounds are incredibly toxic.
    Aluminum still seems to be a safe bet for now....

    And of course remember the Material Safety Data Sheets (MSDS) for H20 and for bricks, both of which can be hazardous in some circumstances. :-)
    SMA SB 3000, old BP panels.
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  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    #77
    Re: So much for electric cars being "green" !

    Even the mining of metals can produce toxic side effects, as anyone who has ever driven past a tailings pond can see (we have some big ones in BC).
    But since the metal will be mined and manufactured anyway, should that actually count against any specific use?
    The "totally eco-friendly" option would be to deny mankind practically everything we have. That too would have a down-side, what with all the dead people piling up all over the place. :roll:
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  • nsaspook
    nsaspook Solar Expert Posts: 396 ✭✭✭
    #78
    Re: So much for electric cars being "green" !
    Cariboocoot wrote: »
    Nah, it says right in the owner's manual "Do Not Immerse". :p

    They don't make them like they used to. If it explodes when submerged then make it float. :p
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1qB0lb401ZU
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  • westbranch
    westbranch Solar Expert Posts: 5,183 ✭✭✭✭
    #79
    Re: So much for electric cars being "green" !

    did anyone notice that not ALL of them burned??? see the bottom pic.... perhaps one ignited and caused a chain reaction upon exploding?
     
    KID #51B  4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM
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  • nsaspook
    nsaspook Solar Expert Posts: 396 ✭✭✭
    #80
    Re: So much for electric cars being "green" !
    westbranch wrote: »
    did anyone notice that not ALL of them burned??? see the bottom pic.... perhaps one ignited and caused a chain reaction upon exploding?

    It must have been a nasty fire, the cars that burned turned to slag.

    Alkali Metals and water (don't try this at home):
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QSZ-3wScePM
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  • inetdog
    inetdog Solar Expert Posts: 3,123 ✭✭✭✭
    #81
    Re: So much for electric cars being "green" !
    nsaspook wrote: »
    They don't make them like they used to. If it explodes when submerged then make it float. :p

    I listened to an interview yesterday with a Limo driver in New Jersey. He went to bed with the water rising and woke up the next morning to find his parked limo facing 180% in the opposite direction to how he left it. There was enough water at peak to float it. But since it was a Mercedes limo, there was no water inside the passenger/driver compartment. Not as great confidence that the engine and wiring are still OK but at least the cosmetics are good. :-)
    And he is lucky that it did not float too far.
    SMA SB 3000, old BP panels.
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  • ggunn
    ggunn Solar Expert Posts: 1,973 ✭✭✭
    #82
    Re: So much for electric cars being "green" !
    inetdog wrote: »
    I listened to an interview yesterday with a Limo driver in New Jersey. He went to bed with the water rising and woke up the next morning to find his parked limo facing 180% in the opposite direction to how he left it. There was enough water at peak to float it. But since it was a Mercedes limo, there was no water inside the passenger/driver compartment. Not as great confidence that the engine and wiring are still OK but at least the cosmetics are good. :-)
    And he is lucky that it did not float too far.
    Another thing to consider is that grease floats. Prolonged immersion in water of a vehicle's understructure can result in the displacement of oil based lubricants from suspension grease fittings, differential, universal joints, etc. If not attended to this can result in mechanical failures farther down the road, literally.
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  • solar_dave
    solar_dave Solar Expert Posts: 2,397 ✭✭✭✭
    #83
    Re: So much for electric cars being "green" !
    ggunn wrote: »
    Another thing to consider is that grease floats. Prolonged immersion in water of a vehicle's understructure can result in the displacement of oil based lubricants from suspension grease fittings, differential, universal joints, etc. If not attended to this can result in mechanical failures farther down the road, literally.

    Let alone what salt water will do the body if left unflushed.
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  • ggunn
    ggunn Solar Expert Posts: 1,973 ✭✭✭
    #84
    Re: So much for electric cars being "green" !
    solar_dave wrote: »
    Let alone what salt water will do the body if left unflushed.
    They use salt on the roads up there in the winter, so the salt from Sandy probably doesn't make it that much worse for them than it was already.
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  • DavidOH
    DavidOH Solar Expert Posts: 112 ✭✭✭
    #85
    Re: So much for electric cars being "green" !

    There is still a long way to go. Most of those on the road should still be registered as "experimental".
    Sadly most in the news I have seen aren't green, they are black!
    http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1076037_was-a-fisker-karma-the-cause-of-a-recent-house-fire

    http://ts1.mm.bing.net/th?id=I.4561539545301384&pid=15.1
    http://www.independentsentinel.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/FISKER-FIRE3.jpg
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  • Photowhit
    Photowhit Solar Expert Posts: 6,006 ✭✭✭✭✭
    #86
    Re: So much for electric cars being "green" !
    niel wrote: »
    let's face it guys, nothing mankind touches or does seems to be 100% green or natural unless we are all pushing daisies.:-)

    Isn't it greener to be cremated? unless you can do an amish burial w/o them pumping all the chemicals into you...lol

    I had avoided this thread, I'll have an electric vehicle someday, likely an electric scooter to get me to and from work some 8-9 miles, I may do a hub motor for my bicycle.

    One of the big advantages to Electric vehicles is all the oil that gas fueled cars contain and drop that reduces the earths ability to filter water from rain.
    Home system 4000 watt (Evergreen) array standing, with 2 Midnite Classic Lites,  Midnite E-panel, Magnum MS4024, Prosine 1800(now backup) and Exeltech 1100(former backup...lol), 660 ah 24v Forklift battery(now 10 years old). Off grid for 20 years (if I include 8 months on a bicycle).
    - Assorted other systems, pieces and to many panels in the closet to not do more projects.
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  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    #87
    Re: So much for electric cars being "green" !

    Someday they will mass-produce a practical, basic electric car. The sales slogan will be: "You can have it in any colour you want, so long as it's green."
    :p
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