Inverter

2

Comments

  • RK_Solar_HopefulRK_Solar_Hopeful Solar Expert Posts: 69 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Inverter

    The company replied yesterday. Attached is the price sheet. The 220vac/110vac inverters are separate units not a 240VAC split phase for US power. They appear to have good prices.

    Still waiting on answers to:
    1. Do you have any inverters that produce US 240VAC split phase? 240VAC split phase is commonly produced by stacking two 120VAC inverters to give 120VAC - neutral - 120VAC where the 120VAC legs are 180 degrees out of phase, giving 240VAC.

    2. Do you have detailed efficiency reports for each of the above units at 25%, 50%, 75% and 100% load?

    3. What is the duration of the listed surge ratings?

    4. Please provide more detail of the power saver operation, what are normal watts used? What are power saver watts used?

    5. What is adjustable with the remote control?

    Plus this:
    You have a new inquiry from http://www.upspowersupplier.com
    Please Note:
    Recently, a phishing scam was found in the name of buyer sending inquiry message to members via DIYTrade platform. When members replied to the message, an email with a hyperlink attempt to direct members to a fraudulent website with the intention to capture their email login and password.
    To protect your interests, please pay attention to this kind of email. Thank you for your attention.

    If you visit the I suggest you have scripts disabled.
  • BB.BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 32,314 admin
    Re: Inverter

    By the way, the 240 VAC GT inverters in the US are really simply 240 VAC 2 wire inverters.

    The new code (in the last 5 years or so), added the neutral wire to the GT inverter which simply was used to monitor the split phase voltages (120/240/120; L1-N, L1-L2, L2-N). There is no functional power, it just signals the inverter to shut down if there is an open neutral in the home's power system somewhere.

    My original GT inverter only had L1, L2, and Ground connections. The new one has L1, L2, N, and ground--The quick fix for those that don't have N wired to the inverter (was not needed) was to simply tie the local Earth Ground to the N wire on the inverter (so it would sense proper 120/240 voltages).

    The neutral current (120 VAC loads) is supplied by the pole transformer for 240 VAC GT inverters.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • conntaxmanconntaxman Solar Expert Posts: 125 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: Inverter
    BB. wrote: »
    By the way, the 240 VAC GT inverters in the US are really simply 240 VAC 2 wire inverters.

    The new code (in the last 5 years or so), added the neutral wire to the GT inverter which simply was used to monitor the split phase voltages (120/240/120; L1-N, L1-L2, L2-N). There is no functional power, it just signals the inverter to shut down if there is an open neutral in the home's power system somewhere.

    My original GT inverter only had L1, L2, and Ground connections. The new one has L1, L2, N, and ground--The quick fix for those that don't have N wired to the inverter (was not needed) was to simply tie the local Earth Ground to the N wire on the inverter (so it would sense proper 120/240 voltages).

    The neutral current (120 VAC loads) is supplied by the pole transformer for 240 VAC GT inverters.

    -Bill
    .
    ..........................I wasn't planning on getting a 220inverter.The other link was the same one but 120vac. I must have coped the wrong link.LOL
  • BB.BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 32,314 admin
    Re: Inverter

    Actually, I was responding to RK Solar Hopeful... He asked about 240 VAC split phase GT Inverters.

    Opps... RK was typing about Off-Grid inverters, not GT.

    -Bill "Sorry" B. :blush:
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • techntrektechntrek Solar Expert Posts: 1,372 ✭✭✭
    Re: Inverter

    RK Solar - note the minimum order quantity on your pricing sheet (MOQ), 30.
    4.5 kw APC UPS powered by a Prius, 12 kw Generac, Honda EU3000is
  • RCinFLARCinFLA Solar Expert Posts: 1,428 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Inverter

    It looks like a copy of the original Trace SW inverter scheme with three secondary stacked transformers.

    Trace patent #5373433 was filed May 5, 1992, so it should be valid until May 2012. But then, China doesn't really care about violating patents. Nobody would go after them for six months term anyway.

    First link says 77 lbs for a 4kW unit which would say skimped on transformer iron core. PDF file says 105 lbs which is more like it. They would require two 120vac units stacked for 240vac split phase, assuming they have stacking sync control capability.

    Stay away! You can probably pick up a couple of used SW4048's or SW5548's cheaper and more reliable.
  • RK_Solar_HopefulRK_Solar_Hopeful Solar Expert Posts: 69 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Inverter
    BB. wrote: »
    Actually, I was responding to RK Solar Hopeful... He asked about 240 VAC split phase GT Inverters.

    Opps... RK was typing about Off-Grid inverters, not GT.

    -Bill "Sorry" B. :blush:

    BB, I'm still looking for something that the Enphase micro inverters will sync up with. Do you think this would work?
  • RK_Solar_HopefulRK_Solar_Hopeful Solar Expert Posts: 69 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Inverter
    techntrek wrote: »
    RK Solar - note the minimum order quantity on your pricing sheet (MOQ), 30.

    Good catch!! I was too busy drooling over the low price to notice the MOQ of 30. If they respond to my other questions I'll ask about single unit purchase price.
  • conntaxmanconntaxman Solar Expert Posts: 125 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: Inverter

    Well I looked and quite a few of inverters,also learned that some have a builted in battery charger. I figured out what I am going to order,here is the link
    http://www.upspowersupplier.com/sdp/1190101/4/pd-5451384/8237172.html
    Question what dose "" Bypass without battery connected "" mean.
    For $320.00 dollars and a 3 year warranty I cant go wrong too much.Also I may not need the full 3000 watts, but at least it will be their if i do need it. { like i said, if a storm knocks out the power for awhile.}
    Im sorry to those that will say, " its junk,its no good because you didn't pay a thousand dollars for it, it's made in china, and oh well you get the drift.
    I think on the top of the case it has some kind of meter. I just emailed the company what i seen on the top.
    Let me hear some responses. I didn't buy it yet. but soon.
    John
  • RCinFLARCinFLA Solar Expert Posts: 1,428 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Inverter
    conntaxman wrote: »
    Well I looked and quite a few of inverters,also learned that some have a builted in battery charger. I figured out what I am going to order,here is the link
    http://www.upspowersupplier.com/sdp/1190101/4/pd-5451384/8237172.html
    Question what dose "" Bypass without battery connected "" mean.
    For $320.00 dollars and a 3 year warranty I cant go wrong too much.Also I may not need the full 3000 watts, but at least it will be their if i do need it. { like i said, if a storm knocks out the power for awhile.}
    Im sorry to those that will say, " its junk,its no good because you didn't pay a thousand dollars for it, it's made in china, and oh well you get the drift.
    I think on the top of the case it has some kind of meter. I just emailed the company what i seen on the top.
    Let me hear some responses. I didn't buy it yet. but soon.
    John

    Bypass without batteries means the ACin is passed to ACout when there is no battery power to inverter (AC passthrough). Inverter is obviously off. The original Trace SW series required battery power be present to power the pass through relay. This was changed on Trace/Xantrex SWplus series.

    On these units, they will likely immediately shut down if your GT inverter tries to push current into their ACout port. This is what an old Trace SW series will do, which is what these units appear to be a reverse engineered copy of. On the Trace SW series it is an alarm called "ACin connected to ACout" interpretting you have the inverter wired up incorrectly with AC input line connected to ACout. If they did a poor job of reverse engineering the software and don't check for reverse power input on ACout port then they will just overcharge and damage your batteries when GT pushes power into ACout (when grid is out).

    These units cannot be UL1741 interactive grid certified by inherent design (there is no mention of any type of certification on their site), meaning they cannot legally be tied to grid interactive connection, cannot legally push power into grid, and any qualified inspector will reject a permit installation approval. Just about all inspectors in the U.S. will immediately reject an install if they don't see a UL certification label on the inverter. If you have the new RF linked net metering for your electric utility and they detect a reverse power push into your grid, the power company will check their records for such a permitted approval. If they don't find one they will be talking to you.

    You also have not added in the freight cost and hassle of F.O.B. China. I would not attempt it without having a freight forwarder agent at U.S. port of entry that can get it sorted from the container, clear it through customs, and get it on the domestic freight carrier. You can always use Fed-X air or UPS-air which will do all this for you and deliver it to your door step but the cost will make the $320 inverter cost a small incidental to the overall cost.
  • conntaxmanconntaxman Solar Expert Posts: 125 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: Inverter

    Hello RCinFLA
    im not going to connect to the grid with this, this will be running all off grid.Also I had bought a solar charge controller from them and the shipping was Small. Cheaper the shipping in the USA. I don't know how they ship stuff so cheap to us, but if we want to ship something over seas it cost us ALOT. So our government is screwing up again.
    But other wise you didn't mention too much else,and Im glad you mentioned that it was a copy of a Trace/Xantrex. I think that they did /do a good job copping the soft ware also. Well the must also sell these to their own people, and I bet that they did test um to.
    Like I have said, i don't like to buy from other countries, but we All have to try to stop buying from their. I wont buy any thing from harbor fright any more. But on this item Im saving hundreads of dollars. You did notice that it dose have the battery charger in it, well you had to. Any thing close to these spec. you will pay much much more. Find me one made in the USA. for about $375.00 and Ill buy it tonight.
    John
    Thank you for the info.about the copy cat.
  • ggunnggunn Solar Expert Posts: 1,973 ✭✭✭
    Re: Inverter
    conntaxman wrote: »
    I wont buy any thing from harbor fright any more.

    Harbor Fright. I love it! :D
  • conntaxmanconntaxman Solar Expert Posts: 125 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: Inverter

    most of the stuff i bought their broke in a short time.The last item was a 4 " grinder ,and that started to give me shocks after about 60 days.I brought it back and got my money back and went and bought a Skill.I could feel the difference in weight and power and how much better the skill was and it was only $2.00 more.So like i said many times, i always try to buy American. Thats what's wrong with this country.I know its hard to spend that little extra. But also i cant see spending hundreads on the same item. I blame the Unions for such high prices and causing jobs to be shipped over seas.
    done with politics
  • ggunnggunn Solar Expert Posts: 1,973 ✭✭✭
    Re: Inverter
    conntaxman wrote: »
    most of the stuff i bought their broke in a short time.The last item was a 4 " grinder ,and that started to give me shocks after about 60 days.I brought it back and got my money back and went and bought a Skill.I could feel the difference in weight and power and how much better the skill was and it was only $2.00 more.So like i said many times, i always try to buy American. Thats what's wrong with this country.I know its hard to spend that little extra. But also i cant see spending hundreads on the same item. I blame the Unions for such high prices and causing jobs to be shipped over seas.
    done with politics
    Blame the companies who want to make their stuff over there where labor is cheap and sell it over here where people have money. It works great until they all do it and the people over here don't have money any more. Unions didn't have all that much to do with it; most US workers are non-union.
  • conntaxmanconntaxman Solar Expert Posts: 125 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: Inverter

    I took a reading with the watts meter on the fridge,and it draws about 700watts and start up is 1004 watts. So im going to get the 2000 watt pure sine wave inverter with the auto battery charger in it.
    Question about the automatic battery charger builted in the inverter.Could you turn it off if you wanted? Also when I use the batteries during the day, i know that the panels will be putting back what I use,well if its less then i use, and then at night i'll be using it and have a draw on the batteries, so now I would want to have the panels charge the batteries up in the morring, and Not have the auto charger go on at the night time.Would I have to watch and not draw them down past the point were the automatic battery charger would cut in.
    I guess that is a good feature and also a bad feature.
    John
    going to cost just about 397.00 for it total.Not too bad, with all you get. I think.
  • mike95490mike95490 Solar Expert Posts: 9,511 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: Inverter
    conntaxman wrote: »
    I took a reading with the watts meter on the fridge,and it draws about 700watts and start up is 1004 watts. So im going to get the 2000 watt pure sine wave inverter with the auto battery charger in it.....

    Please re-run the test. Those #'s don't make any sense.

    Leave the meter running for a couple days, and get a better, average reading.

    It takes a special meter to capture the start-up surge, which only lasts a second, and with meters that update every 1.3 seconds ...... no way.

    At power up, some fridges kick in the defrost heater, I highly doubt the compressor motor runs at 700 w.
    Powerfab top of pole PV mount | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
    || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
    || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

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  • conntaxmanconntaxman Solar Expert Posts: 125 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: Inverter

    Hello mike.
    on the inside of the fridge it says 11.6 amps. wouldn't the be 1390 watts? ampxvolts. Im just trying to get a inverter that would be able to run that incase power goes out. The inv. will be the 2000 watt cont.and serge of 4000. Oh well ,anyway thats the one Ill get. If it don't run it, i'll just use the gen. {5000 watt}
    John
  • BB.BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 32,314 admin
    Re: Inverter

    Depending on the fridge and inverter, around 1,500 to 2,000 watt minimum inverter will power most energy star refrigerators/freezers. Inverters at this power range--I usually recommend to look at 24 or 48 volt systems.

    Some people, with effort and experimentation, have gotten a 300 watt / 600 watt surge inverters to power their refrigerator.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • conntaxmanconntaxman Solar Expert Posts: 125 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: Inverter
    BB. wrote: »
    Depending on the fridge and inverter, around 1,500 to 2,000 watt minimum inverter will power most energy star refrigerators/freezers. Inverters at this power range--I usually recommend to look at 24 or 48 volt systems.

    Some people, with effort and experimentation, have gotten a 300 watt / 600 watt surge inverters to power their refrigerator.

    -Bill
    Hi BB. thats what I though ,it would power it.Thank for the heads up.
    Good feeling.
  • ggunnggunn Solar Expert Posts: 1,973 ✭✭✭
    Re: Inverter
    conntaxman wrote: »
    Hello mike.
    on the inside of the fridge it says 11.6 amps. wouldn't the be 1390 watts? ampxvolts. Im just trying to get a inverter that would be able to run that incase power goes out. The inv. will be the 2000 watt cont.and serge of 4000. Oh well ,anyway thats the one Ill get. If it don't run it, i'll just use the gen. {5000 watt}
    John
    That sounds high. If it runs half the time it would use over 500kWh a month.
  • RCinFLARCinFLA Solar Expert Posts: 1,428 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Inverter
    conntaxman wrote: »
    I took a reading with the watts meter on the fridge,and it draws about 700watts and start up is 1004 watts. So im going to get the 2000 watt pure sine wave inverter with the auto battery charger in it.
    Question about the automatic battery charger builted in the inverter.Could you turn it off if you wanted? Also when I use the batteries during the day, i know that the panels will be putting back what I use,well if its less then i use, and then at night i'll be using it and have a draw on the batteries, so now I would want to have the panels charge the batteries up in the morring, and Not have the auto charger go on at the night time.Would I have to watch and not draw them down past the point were the automatic battery charger would cut in.
    I guess that is a good feature and also a bad feature.
    John
    going to cost just about 397.00 for it total.Not too bad, with all you get. I think.

    If your 'frige is drawing 700 watts when compressor is running, unless it is a very large commercial unit, you need to get a new refrig.

    Typical draw on compressor and fans is between 100 watts and 150 watts depending on how old the refrig is. Startup can be over 1500 watts. There is also defrost heater that can draw between a couple hundred and 1000 watts.
  • conntaxmanconntaxman Solar Expert Posts: 125 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: Inverter
    ggunn wrote: »
    That sounds high. If it runs half the time it would use over 500kWh a month.
    ggunn
    I put on a watt meter the other day and it was reading 700 watts.Thats not too bad. maybe they mean at start up. May be that have to say that so you would put it on a circuit that will carry the 11 amp. I don't know.
    John
    I just want to get my 2000 watt inverter and hook it up,and let the sun run my computer room and tv.
    John
  • BB.BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 32,314 admin
    Re: Inverter

    Sounds like a 150 watt motor and 550 watts of defrost/ice maker heaters running... That should only be 10 minutes or so, a couple times a day.

    Unplugging and plugging the fridge in (to install kill-a-watt meter) may start the defrost/ice maker cycles over--leading to high power usage at first.

    What is the kWH per day (or XX hour) reading? Most reasonably efficient refrigerators are going to be in the 1-2kWH per 24 hour range unless something is happening (making ice, lots of warm items tossed into fridge/freezer/etc.).

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • conntaxmanconntaxman Solar Expert Posts: 125 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: Inverter
    BB. wrote: »
    Sounds like a 150 watt motor and 550 watts of defrost/ice maker heaters running... That should only be 10 minutes or so, a couple times a day.

    Unplugging and plugging the fridge in (to install kill-a-watt meter) may start the defrost/ice maker cycles over--leading to high power usage at first.

    What is the kWH per day (or XX hour) reading? Most reasonably efficient refrigerators are going to be in the 1-2kWH per 24 hour range unless something is happening (making ice, lots of warm items tossed into fridge/freezer/etc.).

    -Bill
    BB. thanks,. the Fridge is an energy saver. My point was i just wanted to make sure i had enough watts for to starting the fridge.
    tks
    John
    Im sure that the 2000 watts will do it, It also has a 4000 watt surge,
  • BB.BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 32,314 admin
    Re: Inverter

    Remember heavy and short wiring from battery to inverter.

    Also, for a 4,000 watt surge load on a 24 volt inverter, you should be looking at a ~400 ah @ 24 volt battery bank (flooded cell type battery bank).

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • conntaxmanconntaxman Solar Expert Posts: 125 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: Inverter
    BB. wrote: »
    Remember heavy and short wiring from battery to inverter.

    Also, for a 4,000 watt surge load on a 24 volt inverter, you should be looking at a 800 ah @ 24 volt battery bank (flooded cell type battery bank). [sorry, I made a mistake--should be 400 AH battery bank @ 24 volts... -Bill B.

    -Bill
    Bill. I will be running a 12 volt system
  • mike95490mike95490 Solar Expert Posts: 9,511 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: Inverter
    conntaxman wrote: »
    Bill. I will be running a 12 volt system

    Ouch - that's going to hurt. 4000 watt starting surge at 12V is


    wait for it


    333 amps !! the internal voltage drop in the inverter may shut you down!
    Powerfab top of pole PV mount | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
    || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
    || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

    solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
    gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister ,

  • john pjohn p Solar Expert Posts: 814 ✭✭✭
    Re: Inverter

    Im sure you know this already but attempting 4kw on 12 v is not good You should be using 24v at least.. its very hard to make and keep "perfect" lug connections on 12v batteries above 200a.. It takes very little time( a few weeks) for a minute amount of corrosion and oxidisation to occur. and the connection then gets hot and loses power.
    We have a wrirtten in the sand rule at work if you are desiging something and its running on DC and it draws above 200a the voltage is to low. its a good rule for most times.
  • BB.BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 32,314 admin
    Re: Inverter

    Showing my work:
      4,000 watts * 1/0.85 inverter eff * 1/10.5 volts cutout = 448 amps peak
    And for a 12 volt battery bank to support a 4,000 watt surge (assuming C/2.5 maximum recommended surge current):
      4,000 watts * 1/12 volts * 2.5/C = 833 Amp*Hour @ 12 volt bank minimum battery bank (assuming flooded cell type deep cycle battery bank)
    448 amps and a ~1.0 volt maximum drop is very difficult to obtain without using a lot of very short copper.

    Using a generic voltage drop calculator, you are looking at ~5' one way run of 2/0 cable for 0.84 volt drop (you need to leave some room for the fuse/breaker/switch too).

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • RCinFLARCinFLA Solar Expert Posts: 1,428 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Inverter
    BB. wrote: »
    Showing my work:
      4,000 watts * 1/0.85 inverter eff * 1/10.5 volts cutout = 448 amps peak
    And for a 12 volt battery bank to support a 4,000 watt surge (assuming C/2.5 maximum recommended surge current):
      4,000 watts * 1/12 volts * 2.5/C = 833 Amp*Hour @ 12 volt bank minimum battery bank (assuming flooded cell type deep cycle battery bank)
    448 amps and a ~1.0 volt maximum drop is very difficult to obtain without using a lot of very short copper.

    Using a generic voltage drop calculator, you are looking at ~5' one way run of 2/0 cable for 0.84 volt drop (you need to leave some room for the fuse/breaker/switch too).

    -Bill

    I don't think you will find a 2000 watt inverter that has 85% efficiency at 2x surge overload. Likely more like 55-60%.
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