Inverter

conntaxmanconntaxman Solar Expert Posts: 125 ✭✭✭✭✭
Has anyone used one of these.http://www.upspowersupplier.com/sdp/1190101/4/pd-5451384/8237172.html
Also on this type , are these Hard Wired in.I know on the smaller type ,you just plug in what you want to run.I emailed the company. When they say in the "Stand by mode" or saver mode, what dose this do? It would seem that you would be useing ele all the time even running all the LED's now placed into everything.
At first I didn't even thing about a battery charger, but now I see that is a very good idea.
John
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Comments

  • CariboocootCariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭
    Re: Inverter

    With a description like this, who knows what it is/does:

    "LW Series Pure Sine Wave Inverter takes low frequency converter Device, with built in Isolation transformer. Zero Voltage(ZV) and soft switch technic, high capability Motorola MCU, digital and dummy combined technics which Complete the voltage increase in one time and SPWM wave modemed Advanced circuit, high efficiency and compact size, small weight And super stability It has no repellency for the load, which can work well with Inductive load such as fluorescent lamp, electromotor, microwave ovens, Induction cooker, refrigerator, air conditions and transformer. With protection fonction like, DC input protect When pole wrong, AC input protection against over and low voltage, Output protection against over load, shor circuit Protection, DC input and AC output completely electric insulation."

    :confused:

    A good inverter with stand-by mode reduces its power consumption when no loads are present. It periodically checks for a load, and if one is detected (above a certain threshold) powers up to supply it. This saves battery power on systems with infrequent use. For example my FX3524 uses 6 Watts in stand-by and 20 Watts if running.
  • john pjohn p Solar Expert Posts: 814 ✭✭✭
    Re: Inverter

    Cariboocoot im very supprised you dont know what this item does..LW Series Pure Sine Wave Inverter takes low frequency converter Device, with built in Isolation transformer. Zero Voltage(ZV) and soft switch technic, high capability Motorola MCU, digital and dummy combined technics which Complete the voltage increase in one time and SPWM wave modemed Advanced circuit, high efficiency and compact size, small weight And super stability It has no repellency for the load, which can work well with Inductive load such as fluorescent lamp, electromotor, microwave ovens, Induction cooker, refrigerator, air conditions and transformer. With protection fonction like, DC input protect When pole wrong, AC input protection against over and low voltage, Output protection against over load, shor circuit Protection, DC input and AC output completely electric insulation."Its a type of electromagnetic field rucuperator. its disconfigures the atmospheric particles into nano particles in a certified random tangent to a phase shift . It then transconducts the remaining eggs into a stereoscopic intergrator.I f excessive voltage is applied you get blackouts at the rate of 2 for $1.26.. Hope you now understand ??
  • conntaxmanconntaxman Solar Expert Posts: 125 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: Inverter

    hi Caril. I look at the bottom of you message and it says you have 4 - 175 panels. So what do you run with your sys? is it grid tied or do you run some things off the grid.
    What I want to do is start to run some rooms that we use the most off the gird, like the 48" LCD tv, and the computers that we use for my wifes business. But i also want to be able to run my Boiler [for heat to the house] off it when / if the power goes out , and my well pump.Boiler burner motor uses 1 1/2 amps and the well pump is 220 -3amps , I did buy a transformer that you wire 120vac to it and then you can get 220 out. I just will use this when their is no power.
    Im just starting to build the system. Sure did get alot of info from the guys on this board.
    John
  • RK_Solar_HopefulRK_Solar_Hopeful Solar Expert Posts: 69 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Inverter

    I sent an inquiry asking for more details. Since they are in China they most likely won't answer for another 8-10 hours. It looks interesting...

    The translation of the specs does not mean it is a poor quality product. However I have seen some items purchased directly in China suffer greater than a 50% failure rate. If I bought one I would try to use a purchase method that allows charge backs in the event of the delivered product under-performing the stated specs. Including shipping cost where needed.

    Another item to note. Europe and Asia do not have an Underwriters Lab requirement for their electrical components as the US requires. The certification is generally provided by the manufacturer of the component.
  • CariboocootCariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭
    Re: Inverter

    John;

    My system is off-grid. It runs a cabin in the remote wilderness. The loads include a refrigerator, computer & satellite modem (with VOIP phone), lights, microwave, water pump, et cetera. It needs a wee bit of expansion, but on any good day it can handle it all. Mainly due to load shifting (not running the pump until the batteries are full).

    As back-up power, solar is pretty expensive. In all honesty a good generator is a better value, so long as you get one sized for your needs.

    For one thing, that well pump you have will draw a lot on start-up, depending on its size and configuration and how hard it actually has to work. The 220 Volt 3 Amp rating is a nominal run rating; it may draw more or less when running. Water pumps are notoriously variable. The start could be 20+ Amps. Very hard to measure this accurately without a really good (expensive) meter that can catch the in-rush current on a 240 VAC line. The venerable Kill-A-Watt won't do it, even on 120 VAC. The boiler motor will be a similar problem.

    I'm not saying it can't be done, just that the amount of inverter/batteries/panels needed to do it will cost more than enough to buy a generator that can perform the same function and a whole lot of fuel. Fuel storage can be a problem (you have to keep 'cycling' it so there's always fresh on hand or use diesel or propane). So you have to evaluate how often and for how long you need this back-up power to determine if its worth investing the major $ in.

    Running a TV, even a 48", is another matter. You're looking at far less Watts, no start-up surge, no need for 240 VAC. If you want to set up a solar electric power system for experimenting with it would be far less expensive than what's needed to run motors. One thing about TV's is that you can control when they're on and off; they don't have to run 'on demand' (unless you have kids :p ). And you can adjust the brightness and reduce the power consumption considerably.

    If you're thinking of taking things off grid to save money, chances are very good it won't save a dime. It may reduce the electric bill, but you'll be trading that for an investment that produces power at the $1.00+ per kW hour rate and that's bound to be more than even the greediest utility.

    (John_p; This new-fangled Chinese technology has me all agog! Imagine having a "SPWM wave modemed Advanced circuit" of your very own! :p )
  • conntaxmanconntaxman Solar Expert Posts: 125 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: Inverter

    RK-SOLAR
    I bought the solar controller from this company SL-40amp and it is working very good.When I email the person that I talk to their ,they get right back to me and help as much as they can.This has a 3yr warranty. Let me say this, I thought I had a problem with the C.controller and they said send it back and they would take care of it.
    I don't like buying from china,but I can't afford one that will do the same from outback.I think many you are just paying for the Name,so you can say "oh i have an outback.Sure they work. But if you by Spec's, you can see what each do.
    John
  • CariboocootCariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭
    Re: Inverter

    I'm not saying the Chinese inverter is no good, only that it's impossible to tell what it is from a write-up that is, frankly, gibberish. Hard to evaluate whether you'd want to buy one based on that.

    The Outback is expensive. It does have the quality, but it's definitely not the choice for all situations.
    The Xantrex is even more expensive. Guess where it's made?
  • conntaxmanconntaxman Solar Expert Posts: 125 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: Inverter

    Caril. The Spect. sheet was below and after i read it I though that it seemed pretty good for the price. Then like you said the " Xantrex" is made in / must be made in china, because you said " guess where ". Another think most of ALL the electronic parts are made in china now. So if it's made here,Labor, The parts are from most likely china or over seas.
    What gets me is when people say, oh don't buy it because its made in china or some other crazy country, here they are driving around in a Toyota or some other Jap car.
    I don't buy products for their name, I buy them for quaility, or try to. Thats why I ask other people questions and if they see any thing wrong with it.
    I bought a motorcycle seat ,cost over $1200.00 and I tell everyone that I talk to Don't buy this type.Im not the type of person that if I have it ,it is the best and degrade the other product.
    John
  • CariboocootCariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭
    Re: Inverter

    My Ford was built in Canada. So was my Toyota. Go figure. :p
  • conntaxmanconntaxman Solar Expert Posts: 125 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: Inverter

    Cariboocoot.
    All I want to do is try to run my 48"lcd tv and my 2 or 3 computer's and monitors lcd , and fax machine. Really not too much.All the other stuff is to run it Only if we lose power from a storm. Other wise the heavy stuff will be on the grid. And this is mostly a fun project. I know that solar is really a waste of money as it stands now.Were still in the stone ages with it.lol.
    John
  • CariboocootCariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭
    Re: Inverter
    conntaxman wrote: »
    Cariboocoot.
    All I want to do is try to run my 48"lcd tv and my 2 or 3 computer's and monitors lcd , and fax machine. Really not too much.All the other stuff is to run it Only if we lose power from a storm. Other wise the heavy stuff will be on the grid. And this is mostly a fun project. I know that solar is really a waste of money as it stands now.Were still in the stone ages with it.lol.
    John

    In that case. start with the Kill-A-Watt meter. Plug the things you want to run into it and let it roll up some numbers for total Watt hours used and get some peak Watts used as well. That data is essential for designing a system that will actually work. The peak Watts will tell you how large an inverter is needed and the total Watt hours will dictate how big the battery bank needs to be.

    Of course in this case if you under-size it you can always just plug back in to the grid, but understanding the principle is good if you ever do go off-grid somewhere.

    Desktop computers, btw, use a lot of power compared to their laptop counterparts. You can easily save 100 Watts by switch from desktop to laptop, and if you use them for long hours (who doesn't these days?) that can add up to significant savings on the electric bill. Probably not enough to justify the cost of the laptop, but hey; you never know, right? ;)

    The TV & its associated peripherals could be expected to run 200-300 Watts too. That's an area where adjusting the set and shutting off everything 'for real' with a power bar (if possible - some units don't take kindly to being completely powered down; lose programming and require longish start-ups) can save some Watt hours too.

    The K-A-W meter is a good investment no matter what kind of power source you use. People can save more on their electric bill just by investigating their daily use with one of those than by doing almost anything else.
  • ggunnggunn Solar Expert Posts: 1,973 ✭✭✭
    Re: Inverter

    Desktop computers, btw, use a lot of power compared to their laptop counterparts. You can easily save 100 Watts by switch from desktop to laptop, and if you use them for long hours (who doesn't these days?) that can add up to significant savings on the electric bill. Probably not enough to justify the cost of the laptop, but hey; you never know, right? ;)
    In my house we have three desktop computers that are running all the time, even though one of them I use only a couple of times a week. I know they are costing us significantly, but the reason for keeping them running is that it seems to me that 90%+ of the computer problems I have experienced have been on power up.
  • BB.BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 32,314 admin
    Re: Inverter

    That is true... Many times failures happen on power up for any computer based system (big or small, home or commercial).

    Best thing--make sure you have a backup of your critical data (me, rarely. :blush:).

    It is a tossup whether the systems will last longer running 24x7 or only turning on when needed.

    If you are in the area of of a few hundred kWH per month... A desktop computer can be a large percentage of your daily loads... For example saving 250 Watts by turning system off or using a laptop:
    • 0.250 kW * 24 hours per day * 30 days per month = 180 kWH per month
    For my home (natural gas, CFL lighting, no A/C), that is over 1/2 my monthly electric usage (we have 4 laptops and 1 desktop on a home network). Obviously, I try to only run the computers when somebody needs them. Otherwise, they are in "sleep" most of the time.

    I have a 10 year old HP (Compaq) Laptop whose Hard Disk failed after about 10 years of going to sleep after ~10 minutes with a fair amount of use... Hard to complain about that life. Should I have backed up more -- yea. :blush: Do I? No...:confused:

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • conntaxmanconntaxman Solar Expert Posts: 125 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: Inverter

    Hello Cariboocoot ...I do have a watt meter, and that was one of the best things that I bought. Funny when you show someone how it works, they just look at you and say,"that could show you how much ele, you use". About the tv [LCD] mine uses around 200 watts,thats alot and we run it about 6 hours a night,I like to stay up late. Also when I was testing the cir. I found out what other things I had on the cir. So now I will run a separate circuit just for the tv, Just in stand by mode the thing uses alot,forgot the numbers but it was high. Just have to get use to it starting up and finding the satellites.
    I also have a 5500 watt gen. that I use if the power goes out from a winter storm.But i still want to get the inverter large enough to run the Boiler and water pump if I ever needed to.
    Now im thinking of getting the 3000 watt inverter pure sine, but later I will pick up a smaller one ,that way i could just use the smaller of the two because they also use alot of power. I'll see about that.
    But now you must have a good idea of what im going to do.
    John
  • waynefromnscanadawaynefromnscanada Solar Expert Posts: 3,009 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Inverter

    Three full size computers running 24/7? WOW,, now there's heating your home with electricity! My full size sucked back almost 200 watts, so as soon as I was able to run the house off grid, it was one of the first things that had to go, replaced by a laptop that uses just 18 watts, yet does everything the old one did. PLUS, whenever I'm not using it, it's in "Hibernate", which uses even less power than "sleep", yet takes only a couple of seconds to wake up and be ready for action again, unlike a full shut down. But I still have to do a complete re-start about once a month to finish installing updates etc.
    Running the full size wonder used to really suck down my batteries, can't imagine what 3 would do - - - - On second thought, yes I can, I'd be in the dark. :p
  • john pjohn p Solar Expert Posts: 814 ✭✭✭
    Re: Inverter

    Cariboocoot I think I should order one at work for testing Could be very useful.SPWM wave modemed Advanced circuit" of your very own.And I hope you have learnt all from my careful explanation.. Try not to forget it , as you never know when someone is going to ask the same questions to you.
  • conntaxmanconntaxman Solar Expert Posts: 125 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: Inverter
    Three full size computers running 24/7? WOW,, now there's heating your home with electricity! My full size sucked back almost 200 watts, so as soon as I was able to run the house off grid, it was one of the first things that had to go, replaced by a laptop that uses just 18 watts, yet does everything the old one did. PLUS, whenever I'm not using it, it's in "Hibernate", which uses even less power than "sleep", yet takes only a couple of seconds to wake up and be ready for action again, unlike a full shut down. But I still have to do a complete re-start about once a month to finish installing updates etc.
    Running the full size wonder used to really suck down my batteries, can't imagine what 3 would do - - - - On second thought, yes I can, I'd be in the dark. :p
    ..................wayne
    I dont run them 24/7 their on for about 8 hours.
    and tv about 6 hr
  • ggunnggunn Solar Expert Posts: 1,973 ✭✭✭
    Re: Inverter
    conntaxman wrote: »
    ..................wayne
    I dont run them 24/7 their on for about 8 hours.
    and tv about 6 hr

    I think he was talking to me.
  • solar_davesolar_dave Solar Expert Posts: 2,385 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Inverter

    You may want to consider changing over to laptops or something like a MAC mini. The draw while sleeping is minimal, a few watts. We run 4 of them 24X7 and in sleep the load is less than a CFL light bulb. Make sure you get low wattage monitors for them as well.

    We converted every computer here to Mac Mini's for 2 reasons:
    1. they draw very little energy in sleep mode.
    2. they don't have all the PC virus issues that M$ computers seem to have.
  • ggunnggunn Solar Expert Posts: 1,973 ✭✭✭
    Re: Inverter
    solar_dave wrote: »
    You may want to consider changing over to laptops or something like a MAC mini. The draw while sleeping is minimal, a few watts. We run 4 of them 24X7 and in sleep the load is less than a CFL light bulb. Make sure you get low wattage monitors for them as well.

    We converted every computer here to Mac Mini's for 2 reasons:
    1. they draw very little energy in sleep mode.
    2. they don't have all the PC virus issues that M$ computers seem to have.
    But there is the expense of replacing the hardware. If I spend $3K to replace my computers and it saves me $10/mo, then it takes 300 months of savings to pay for it, and in that six years whatever I bought will be far past obsolete.
  • CariboocootCariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭
    Re: Inverter

    Conntaxman;

    If you've got K-A-W numbers on the things you want to run you're halfway there.
    For instance a TV drawing 200 Watts * 6 hours a day = 1200 Watt hours. The meter should confirm this or give a more accurate figure. Usually you can adjust the brightness on these and take that down; I knock 100 Watts off my 42" set. Same thing with the computers: multiply it out, check the meter results, see where you can save.

    Then the fun begins. A 300 Watt inverter will run the TV. But it won't run the TV and other things that end up over 300 Watts at the same time. Definitely not going to start or run the well pump. A 3kW inverter probably will run all of it including the pump. Two problems come up: first, the 300 Watt inverter will use 6 Watts for itself whereas the 3kW one will use 20. That has to be included in the total loads. Second, the 300 Watt inverter is about 1/10th the price of the 3kW one. That choice is up to you, but you have to be aware of the differences.

    The other thing is having enough battery to supply the power. That 1200 Watt hours on a 12 Volt system (like the MS 300) is at least 100 Amp hours which means a minimum 200 Amp hour battery bank. If we were planning that usage for off-grid you'd go double that for a 25% DOD so you'd have 'spare' power available for not-so-sunny days and longer battery life from less discharge depth. With grid available this in not such a big consideration. So for just the TV you'd probably get a couple of golf cart type batteries for 12 Volts @ 220 Amp hours.

    The battery bank determines the size of the solar array for recharging. The easy shortcut is to go for peak charge current potential of 10% of the battery Amp hours. In this case that's 22 Amps @ 12 Volts (because you don't want the batteries below 12 Volts) or 264 Watts. But panels don't put out their full power, so you have to factor in some derating. The default number is 77%, making the array size around 342 Watts. It is best to size up from that to the nearest available panel configuration, but with grid available you can actually scrimp here and go down a bit if necessary. A minimum array size would be based on 5% rate, which works out to 171 Watts so don't go below that. Two Kyocera 135's would be 270 Watts and a fairly economical and manageable choice (and around 7% charge rate peak). The charge controller has to handle the current and input Voltage from the panels. Length and gauge of wiring runs need to be included as well. And you need fusing on those wires.

    All that to run a TV. Up here it would be just under $2,000. Slightly cheaper in the States - everything is. :cry:

    Sizing up to run the pump is the same process, but it will be completely different results. For one thing you'd want at least a 24 Volt system. The inverter would be bigger, so will the battery bank and panels. And so would the price tag. That's what makes generators attractive for emergency power: not spending $8,000 on something you use once-in-a-while or at best mitigate a bit of utility bill with.

    I recently calculated I can duplicate my cabin system these days for about $6,000 in the U.S. and gain a bit more power potential, due mainly to lower panel prices. But that's still a lot of money for 2.4kW hours per day.
  • CariboocootCariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭
    Re: Inverter
    ggunn wrote: »
    But there is the expense of replacing the hardware. If I spend $3K to replace my computers and it saves me $10/mo, then it takes 300 months of savings to pay for it, and in that six years whatever I bought will be far past obsolete.

    $3,000 for three laptops? :confused:
    It'd be half that up here. You mean there's something we can buy cheaper in Canada? Holy cow! :p

    It was definitely worth it for the off-grid application. 100 Watts over 8 hours a day is 800 Watt hours and not to be sneezed at when it has to come from battery capacity.

    If you saved 1.5 kW hours a day (figuring 3 comps on 24/7, but not fully powered all the time) at BC Hydro's ten cent rate that would be $0.15 savings per day or $1.00 per week. At Canadian prices that's one new laptop per year.

    But it's early morning and and I may have done the math wrong.
    EDIT: I did. Bill pointed out the error. I fixed it. I hope.
  • solar_davesolar_dave Solar Expert Posts: 2,385 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Inverter
    ggunn wrote: »
    But there is the expense of replacing the hardware. If I spend $3K to replace my computers and it saves me $10/mo, then it takes 300 months of savings to pay for it, and in that six years whatever I bought will be far past obsolete.

    Everyone upgrades over time. As you still running Windows 3.1 on a 486? Good deals can be had on 1-2 year old Mac Mini computers, they are basically a laptop class machine with no batteries. Price wise I found them to be cheaper to own overall, while you might pay a bit more upfront, they include much of what you need in the base OS. Full software packages from Apple for most software is about 25% of M$ pricing model. The support is stellar from Apple.

    Just a suggestion for your next round of upgrades.
  • conntaxmanconntaxman Solar Expert Posts: 125 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: Inverter

    guggn. One person said that his computer used about 200 watts. Mine are the newer chip's and they only use about 80 to 90 watts.Thats not too much.Also i build my own computers, this way i can put in the best chip set and better Hard Drives and memory. And i get a faster machine.
  • BB.BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 32,314 admin
    Re: Inverter

    Marc,

    You mixed kWH and WH--So your decimal point is off (I think).

    If you saved 600 watts 24x7:
    • 0.6 kW * 24 hours * 30 days = 432 kWH per month
    Depending on your power plan (at least in California), we pay around $0.15 to $0.30 per kWH (can be more).
    • 432 kWH per month * $0.20 per kWH = $86.40 per month
    And, if you have A/C, you would be paying less for air conditioning in the summer (in the winter, you could be heating your rooms with the computers).

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • ggunnggunn Solar Expert Posts: 1,973 ✭✭✭
    Re: Inverter
    solar_dave wrote: »
    Everyone upgrades over time. As you still running Windows 3.1 on a 486? Good deals can be had on 1-2 year old Mac Mini computers, they are basically a laptop class machine with no batteries. Price wise I found them to be cheaper to own overall, while you might pay a bit more upfront, they include much of what you need in the base OS. Full software packages from Apple for most software is about 25% of M$ pricing model. The support is stellar from Apple.

    Just a suggestion for your next round of upgrades.
    Mac, definitely. I actually am in the market to replace my office computer, which is an old 500MHz PowerMac G4. Websites are responding to the greater bandwidth and processing power out there, and browsing for me is getting to be a more and more frustrating experience. A Mac Mini may be just the ticket; I had forgotten about them.

    The other two computers (the dual core 1 GHZ G4 in my music studio and my wife's new 27" iMac) are still pretty well entrenched.
  • CariboocootCariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭
    Re: Inverter

    Bill;

    Thanks. Fixed it (I hope).
    I knew something about it didn't look right! :blush:
  • ggunnggunn Solar Expert Posts: 1,973 ✭✭✭
    Re: Inverter
    conntaxman wrote: »
    guggn. One person said that his computer used about 200 watts. Mine are the newer chip's and they only use about 80 to 90 watts.Thats not too much.Also i build my own computers, this way i can put in the best chip set and better Hard Drives and memory. And i get a faster machine.
    You are a PC. I'm a Mac. :D
  • SevenSeven Solar Expert Posts: 292 ✭✭
    Re: Inverter

    Another thing to consider about computers is to have more than one that you use. As I type this on my iPad I am comfortable doing so while sitting on my couch. It uses almost no power to charge it up.
    Sould I want to do some 3d modeling, or want to torment someone in an online game, I plug in and fire up the liquid cooled machine. 200w at idle. I'm scared to see what it uses running a loop benchmark program for processor burn in.
    Like building engines, speed costs. Downloading wirelessly vs the gigabit hardwire, takes a lot longer. I use more power to do so, but it is worth it to get it faster.
  • conntaxmanconntaxman Solar Expert Posts: 125 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: Inverter
    Seven wrote: »
    Another thing to consider about computers is to have more than one that you use. As I type this on my iPad I am comfortable doing so while sitting on my couch. It uses almost no power to charge it up.
    Sould I want to do some 3d modeling, or want to torment someone in an online game, I plug in and fire up the liquid cooled machine. 200w at idle. I'm scared to see what it uses running a loop benchmark program for processor burn in.
    Like building engines, speed costs. Downloading wirelessly vs the gigabit hardwire, takes a lot longer. I use more power to do so, but it is worth it to get it faster.
    seven. How old is your cpu and what type?Sounds like a pen.My latest ones are new AMD's and they only run on about 80 watts and their about 3 gig.How i know is i put a Watt meter on the machine's.
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