Midnite Classic 150 vs Outback 80 ???

James
James Solar Expert Posts: 250 ✭✭
Hello folks. I'm considering upgrading my old xantrex c40 units to a new controller, either the outback 80 or the new midnight classic 150. anything to consider?
(i guess I should ask if anyone has an alternative suggestion?)
i will be keeping my array wired at 24 vdc.
by the way, the c40's are working fine...at least right now.
thanks for input!
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Comments

  • niel
    niel Solar Expert Posts: 10,300 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Midnite Classic 150 vs Outback 80 ???

    outback had problems with the fm series that i am not sure if they corrected the problem or not. had something to do with it seeing charge current at night or something like that. also note the fm series was reported as giving off lots of rf interference if that matters to you.
    the classic is much newer and can do more than the fm 80, but it really depends on your requirements does it not?
    maybe this will help you.
    http://www.midnitesolar.com/pdfs/comparisonChart.pdf
  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,432 admin
    Re: Midnite Classic 150 vs Outback 80 ???

    I believe that Outback has fixed the "midnight" charging problem. There is more information on Outback's forum.
    Vic wrote: »
    ...
    Here is a link to the OB forum, there was quite a lot of traffic there, and some here, I think. This topic has become quiet, so believe that the issue has been resolved :

    http://www.outbackpower.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=3142

    There are many FM in the field, and if there was still a problem with them, you would hear about it.

    Good luck with the renewed system, Vic

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • Vic
    Vic Solar Expert Posts: 3,208 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Midnite Classic 150 vs Outback 80 ???

    Hi James,

    You probably have seen this comparison chart:
    http://www.midnitesolar.com/pdfs/comparisonChart.pdf

    It is from Midnite, but think that it is objective.

    Couple of things, first, my OB MX-60s have been great CCs, and both are still running after six years in service.

    However, the MN Classic 150 has just a little bit more output current capability than the FM-80. All of the Classics have two Aux outputs (one is configurable as an input), They ARE Field Firmware Updatable (not a small feature -- the OB units need to take a ride to the WA, if you are in the USA).

    All of the things that have made the MX-60 such a great box should be there in the CL, as the founders of MN were the founders of OB.

    The one caveat, is, of course, that the CL is a new product. There will be issues with getting all of the features working well. But for the most part, the changes will be in the firmware, which can be updated while the CC is on the wall.

    Another nice thing about the Classic is that the graphic display panel is removable, and connects via a CAT-5 cable (IIRC). So no extra widget is required to have a remote display. Even if you just wanted to move the display 6-or-so feet, the flexibility in mounting can simplify the layout, and slightly reduce voltage drops, as the CL can be placed where it needs to be, without regard to needing to read the front panel ... and so on.

    EDIT: in looking again at the FM manual, seems that the Cl 150 has a max charge current of 90-ish amps with reasonable input voltages, vs the fixed max of 80 with the FM-80.

    CL Power Graphs:
    http://www.midnitesolar.com/images/classicFrontPage/graphs.php

    The Hyper VOC of the classic can a bit of a benefit if you are pushing the Vin, as the Max operating Vin is the point where the CL ceases operation, and that voltage plus the nominal battery is the must NEVER exceed point -- a bit more margin than the FM appears to have.

    I'm, jazzed about the Classic, and its current capabilities, and those yet to be implemented. I have no interest in any of the Solar companies, but do like the flexibility of the MN Classic.

    Good Luck, Vic
    Off Grid - Two systems -- 4 SW+ 5548 Inverters, Surrette 4KS25 1280 AH X2@48V, 11.1 KW STC PV, 4X MidNite Classic 150 w/ WBjrs, Beta KID on S-530s, MX-60s, MN Bkrs/Boxes.  25 KVA Polyphase Kubota diesel,  Honda Eu6500isa,  Eu3000is-es, Eu2000,  Eu1000 gensets.  Thanks Wind-Sun for this great Forum.
  • halfcrazy
    halfcrazy Solar Expert Posts: 720 ✭✭✭
    Re: Midnite Classic 150 vs Outback 80 ???
    BB. wrote: »
    I believe that Outback has fixed the "midnight" charging problem. There is more information on Outback's forum.



    -Bill

    The Outback issue staying awake at night seems to be alive and well I handled a call the other day for a pre wired system with this symptom. He had replaced it once through Outback and the second one did the same thing. It appears to only pop up on smaller arrays that are shaded in the evening or cloudy days.
  • tallgirl
    tallgirl Solar Expert Posts: 413 ✭✭
    Re: Midnite Classic 150 vs Outback 80 ???

    Both are excellent charge controllers as both have boB as their primary source of engineering excellence.

    I've had words with various folks about the importance of flashing firmware yourself. I'm more ambivalent (and hypocritical -- my products can be field upgraded ...) than many. I don't see any great need to reflash firmware for a stable device. Yes, new features, but also potentially new bugs. I like my firmware well aged.

    Time for my opinions --

    The #1 advantage of the FM-80 is that it =is= a more mature product, and that's worth something. Quite a bit in my opinion. The #2 advantage is that it integrates with OutBack inverters via a single display -- the Mate display controller. If new inverters are in your future, something to think about.

    The #1 advantage of the Classic is the greater range of input voltages, which seem to cause more people more problems than you can shake a stick at. The #2 advantage is the ability to upgrade in the field.

    Net/net -- if you have a "mission critical" need, as in are living off-grid far from the rest of civilization, I'd go with the FM-80. If you have a less mission-critical need and can wait for a firmware patch, or you want to run a high-voltage array, the Classic is your best bet. Different applications, different solutions.

    If you don't expect to upgrade your inverters, we do provide monitoring solutions that integrate with all manner of gear, and our prices and features are competitive. Hopefully I'll have Classic support soon, and if I can get ahead of customer demands for gear, I hope to get NAWS to sell them through their on-line store -- which would be very cool as it would free my time up a bit.
  • niel
    niel Solar Expert Posts: 10,300 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Midnite Classic 150 vs Outback 80 ???

    i can say that the mx series was bob's all the way, but i'm not too sure how much of bob's efforts trickled to the fm series as i believe he and robin were out of outback before the fm series. i'm not too sure of the direct engineering part either as it may have been addressed while they were still there to some degree, but i don't know. we'd have to hear from them on that one, but there are basic influences there as in basic design takeoffs for sure.
  • boB
    boB Solar Expert Posts: 1,030 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Midnite Classic 150 vs Outback 80 ???
    niel wrote: »
    i can say that the mx series was bob's all the way, but i'm not too sure how much of bob's efforts trickled to the fm series as i believe he and robin were out of outback before the fm series. i'm not too sure of the direct engineering part either as it may have been addressed while they were still there to some degree, but i don't know. we'd have to hear from them on that one, but there are basic influences there as in basic design takeoffs for sure.

    The internals of the FM look 95% the same as the MX60.
    The terminal block was changed as well as some components in that area moved. Looks like the rest of the circuitry is exactly the same. They did however increase the processor memory size by going to the next size up micro. I remember it as being absolutely full.... Something I never want to have happen again. It's hard to do all of that stuff in 32K of flash.

    Also, Darren upgraded the menu structure some as well as changed the tracking code from the timed mini-sweeps to a dynamic tracking method. That is the biggest change as far as I can see. There are giveaways in how the code runs and info in the misc screens that show that it is really the same code skeleton but the skin has changed some. It's still fairly reliable as far as I know, though so that's great.

    boB
  • Dave Angelini
    Dave Angelini Solar Expert Posts: 6,731 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: Midnite Classic 150 vs Outback 80 ???

    This is an old one that did not get solved from the Outback forum. It would scrare me too if I had sealed bateries -Dave


    Re: FM80 output voltage gets way too high

    icon_post_target_unread.gifby arnk on Mon May 23, 2011 3:57 pm
    Sorry I disagree.
    The insolation rise was 15 secs before the high voltage from the Outback and after it returned the insolation was still high for another 30 secs.
    The two Outbacks communicate with each other via a hub so they are coordinated. They are sharing the load as we often see one shut down completely when it is not needed.
    The Outback should have a high voltage disconnect with an instantaneous response - its competitors do and I would have expected that as part of its certification.
    There is no need for a diversion load on a PV supply - all the Outback has to do is stop switching, its quite safe to switch off PV unlike a wind turbine. If they had been prepared to accept a command on the comms interface then we would have shut it down in this situation.
    Unless we can get a fix for this problem we will be forced to look at using other charge controllers.
    Al
    "we go where power lines don't" Sierra Nevada mountain area
       htps://offgridsolar1.com/
    E-mail offgridsolar@sti.net

  • halfcrazy
    halfcrazy Solar Expert Posts: 720 ✭✭✭
    Re: Midnite Classic 150 vs Outback 80 ???

    The problem as I understand it is the outback takes 3-4 minutes to do a sweep and during that time it is unregulated.
  • boB
    boB Solar Expert Posts: 1,030 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Midnite Classic 150 vs Outback 80 ???

    Happy 4th kids !!

    The MX60 would do SOMETHING if the voltage went over the set point much, and might take a couple of seconds, but not 15 seconds. It was always looking at the battery voltage. Now having said that, there may be differences in the FM units that make it take longer to see this overshoot, but I would not think it doesn't look until the next sweep. I sure hope not ! Naaaahhh.....

    boB
  • bluewickedburner
    bluewickedburner Solar Expert Posts: 78 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Midnite Classic 150 vs Outback 80 ???

    I was going to use Outback until I saw the Midnight Solar. Bought 2 of them for RV installs.

    Here is my take on updating firmware.

    First, sending any device back to a factory or service center to update firmware in this day and age is a waste of customer time.

    Second, who keeps around an extra CC so they don't have downtime? That might be ok if you are permanently located but not if you are mobile and storage space is at a premium.

    Computers have been firmware upgradable for a long time and the number of problems when doing so if very very small percentage wise. Sure it happens and when it does it isn't nice but they are far and few between. It really is a step by step process and if you take your time, it isn't that big a deal.

    With the advent of the Midnight Classics, being able to add features or refine the operating functions is worth it's weight in gold and here is why:

    Should you come across an anomalous error or need an enhancement that might not ever find it's way into a general release, you can get this via a firmware update and take care of business as soon as it is ready, not after you disconnect, ship, wait, ship and re-connect and pray it works.

    A final though, say you hose the system because the firmware didn't take. Are you any worse off than had you sent it back to the factory, got it back and also had the problem? We'd all like to think manufacturers test before shipping but things can and do happen.

    For me, give me the ability to update the firmware or I just get something else.
  • halfcrazy
    halfcrazy Solar Expert Posts: 720 ✭✭✭
    Re: Midnite Classic 150 vs Outback 80 ???

    If you accidentally enter the wrong firmware into the Classic it will just say wrong code on the screen prompting you to load the correct firmware. Now say the dog unplugs your usb cable in the middle of a firmware update no worry's just start the firmware update over.
  • snuffy
    snuffy Solar Expert Posts: 72 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Midnite Classic 150 vs Outback 80 ???

    I was considering the Xantrex MPPT 60 because of price or another FM80 as a second controller as I have another 900 watts of panels sitting idle. Now I'm leaning towards the Midnight Classic even though it's quite a bit more $. Looks like this controller could handle 1500 watts . So much to consider.
  • westbranch
    westbranch Solar Expert Posts: 5,183 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Midnite Classic 150 vs Outback 80 ???

    Snuffy, check around for pricing, there is a LOT of variation from the MSRP...
     
    KID #51B  4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM
    CL#29032 FW 2126/ 2073/ 2133 175A E-Panel WBjr, 3 x 4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM 
    Cotek ST1500W 24V Inverter,OmniCharge 3024,
    2 x Cisco WRT54GL i/c DD-WRT Rtr & Bridge,
    Eu3/2/1000i Gens, 1680W & E-Panel/WBjr to come, CL #647 asleep
    West Chilcotin, BC, Canada
  • JESSICA
    JESSICA Solar Expert Posts: 289 ✭✭
    Re: Midnite Classic 150 vs Outback 80 ???

    I think I should share this:

    My MX60's fan stopped running after almost 4 years of use. I emailed Outback, asking for a quote on the fan.

    This is their reply:

    A fan will be sent to you free of charge and will ship out Monday.Your confirmation# is SO-12540 Francine Flores
    Customer Service
    Direct Tech Support: 360.618.4363
    OutBack Power Technologies
    6115 192nd Street NE 
    Arlington, WA 98223 USA Tel: 360.435.6030  Fax: 360.435.6019
    www.outbackpower.com

    That was a week ago.
    The fan arrived two days ago, free of any charges!
    I do realize the cost of such a fan is just peanuts. But oh boy, that's what I call GREAT SERVICE.
    When you buy anything, one of the factors you should take into consideration is custommer service, and I think Outback's is awsome.

    Kudos to the folks at Outback.
  • Dave Angelini
    Dave Angelini Solar Expert Posts: 6,731 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: Midnite Classic 150 vs Outback 80 ???

    That is great service! Reminds me of Xerox and their service contracts until Cannon came out with machines that did not need a contract.
    "we go where power lines don't" Sierra Nevada mountain area
       htps://offgridsolar1.com/
    E-mail offgridsolar@sti.net

  • JESSICA
    JESSICA Solar Expert Posts: 289 ✭✭
    Re: Midnite Classic 150 vs Outback 80 ???
    That is great service! Reminds me of Xerox and their service contracts until Cannon came out with machines that did not need a contract.

    Dave:

    I don't know if you are familiar with the mx60, but if you are I ask: Is that fan really necessary? I mean: the fan is really tiny, no more than 1.25 square inches. How much hot air can it exhaust?

    Ok, I received it and am going to install it. So this is just curiosity.
  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,432 admin
    Re: Midnite Classic 150 vs Outback 80 ???

    I believe their fan is thermostatically controlled... So it is only on when it is needed.

    From a consumer point of view, every 10C (18F) you reduce the operation temperature, it will last 2x longer.

    Also, from when I used to evaluate disk drives a couple decades ago--thermal cycling (cold to hot back to cold) was a real killer for electronics/solder connections. It was not a big range (something like 40F to 122F)--but about 2 weeks of doing that on a 4 hour temperature ramp (18F degree per hour?)--Most disk drive manufacturers (and tape drives) would fail. We came out with only several vendors that would pass that test.

    So--change the fan and know that it is making your Outback Charge Controller last much longer by limiting peak temperatures and temperature extremes.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • niel
    niel Solar Expert Posts: 10,300 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Midnite Classic 150 vs Outback 80 ???

    just to be clear here, boB and robin were the founders of outback power and they left. (not sure of reasons) they have formed a new company of midnite solar and the policies that are basically in place at outback for customer service was attributed to them and the service at midnite solar is in no way any less great now for that is where they are now. boB has also confirmed that most of the fm design was originally his so you know outback is a good company, but those that made it and made it great (i'm not discounting or dissing other good people that may be in outback) are at midnite solar.

    so you are comparing 2 companies that in many ways are the same and both are winners, but only one has boB and robin now and only that one is pushing high innovation in products along with good service and it is because they are there. common sense.
  • Dave Angelini
    Dave Angelini Solar Expert Posts: 6,731 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: Midnite Classic 150 vs Outback 80 ???
    JESSICA wrote: »
    Dave:

    I don't know if you are familiar with the mx60, but if you are I ask: Is that fan really necessary? I mean: the fan is really tiny, no more than 1.25 square inches. How much hot air can it exhaust?

    Ok, I received it and am going to install it. So this is just curiosity.

    In your climate yes and I am very familiar with the MX-60 and did beta testing on it. It's reliability in hot climates is limited by the fan and a dubious one was used for a period of time, and replaced with one that is suppose to be better. (yours)

    My opinions only as Outback never really listened or for business purposes put my inputs in the circular file.

    The MX-60 set a benchmark for Offgrid that others improved on!
    "we go where power lines don't" Sierra Nevada mountain area
       htps://offgridsolar1.com/
    E-mail offgridsolar@sti.net

  • boB
    boB Solar Expert Posts: 1,030 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Midnite Classic 150 vs Outback 80 ???
    The MX-60 set a benchmark for Offgrid that others improved on!

    Yes... And it has been extremely difficult for anybody to do much better than the old MX60. There was one in particular that tried and failed,, even with fans and it wasn't the fan that was at fault.

    If you count only the fan aspect, yes there is no fan to break. However, the units can get much hotter because of that missing fan.

    I don't suppose you would buy a car without an oil filter or oil pan plug just so you didn't have to change your oil and filter.

    Let's just hope that fans are either better now days or at least easy to replace.

    Dave, what was it that OutBack filed circularly ?

    boB
  • Dave Angelini
    Dave Angelini Solar Expert Posts: 6,731 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: Midnite Classic 150 vs Outback 80 ???

    Which one did they ignore or just say thats nice? Several.

    The one related to the Fan was to make it easily field replaceable without taking the unit off the wall. I am not saying it is hard to do but it certainly is not what I want happening for at least 5 or 10 years for my customers who I warranty my labor.

    HP test gear (now Agilent) in 19 inch rack cabinets is still working decades later and many of the fans are orriginal. I told them about this and how they were designed to run with a dead fan for a year in the rack cabiinets. Obviously there are price points to building gear this way and well. "thats nice"

    Some things were fixed in the FM series. Some were not!

    I really am looking for an inverter charger from you guy's! Keep it simple for people to use and robust! Hide those pesky choices from people who do not need to know and add Gen support. Buenas Suerte!
    "we go where power lines don't" Sierra Nevada mountain area
       htps://offgridsolar1.com/
    E-mail offgridsolar@sti.net

  • boB
    boB Solar Expert Posts: 1,030 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Midnite Classic 150 vs Outback 80 ???

    Making the fan easier to replace in the MX60 would not have been easy or inexpensive which is probably why that one didn't go any further. BTW, the Classic isn't as easy as I would like to replace they are easier than the MX. We also extensively tested the fans we use and hopefully don't have any rude surprises from the manufacturer.

    Agilent equipment is of course top of the line, no holes barred lab equipment that usually costs thousands of dollars and can afford an expensive fan.

    Inverter charger ?? OK.. Keep your eyes and ears open.

    I hear you on keeping the geeky adjustments more hidden. Trying to do that too and hopefully have one setting to pick for 90+ % of the users.

    boB
  • JESSICA
    JESSICA Solar Expert Posts: 289 ✭✭
    Re: Midnite Classic 150 vs Outback 80 ???
    niel wrote: »
    just to be clear here, boB and robin were the founders of outback power and they left..

    Well, in that case, please give my regards to both of them, and tell them to accept the gratitude of an old puertorican who thinks the mx60, and OB service, are superb.

    César.
  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    Re: Midnite Classic 150 vs Outback 80 ???

    Someday there may be a solar power museum. If so, the Outback MX60 will be prominently displayed in it. Never heard of anyone who didn't like theirs, and that's rare for any type of product. :D

    A Midnight Solar inverter that communicates with a Midnight Solar charge controller with built-in battery monitor? Hmm. True sine wave, real surge capacity, 240 VAC output, dual capacity with sleep/search to save stand-by power ... a fellah can dream, can't he? :D
  • niel
    niel Solar Expert Posts: 10,300 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Midnite Classic 150 vs Outback 80 ???

    "Someday there may be a solar power museum."

    now there's a novel idea and a very good one. i'm not too sure how well the public would receive it, but it would start them wondering of the items and how they work. the descriptions would need to be more detailed than items for other museums though. you know, wouldn't it be great if it too was solar powered?8):D

    now that we are on this type of subject, i think a good solar history book would be nice too and not some of the lame get rich quick books out there now. i mean something detailed with names, dates, and innovations. even list some of the failures and especially those unscrupulous get rich quick rip-offs and their artists if one can be sure you won't be sued for it. for sure additional printings would be needed just for the updates.
  • Dave Angelini
    Dave Angelini Solar Expert Posts: 6,731 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: Midnite Classic 150 vs Outback 80 ???
    Someday there may be a solar power museum. If so, the Outback MX60 will be prominently displayed in it. Never heard of anyone who didn't like theirs, and that's rare for any type of product. :D

    A Midnight Solar inverter that communicates with a Midnight Solar charge controller with built-in battery monitor? Hmm. True sine wave, real surge capacity, 240 VAC output, dual capacity with sleep/search to save stand-by power ... a fellah can dream, can't he? :D


    There is the Hi Tech museum in San Jose CA. Plenty of solar there already!
    Alot of it started in the silly valley, as well as LA and back east!
    "we go where power lines don't" Sierra Nevada mountain area
       htps://offgridsolar1.com/
    E-mail offgridsolar@sti.net

  • dhsola
    dhsola Solar Expert Posts: 38
    Re: Midnite Classic 150 vs Outback 80 ???

    I added an external computer fan to the FM-60. I think the internal fan has come on only once since. The FM-60 runs much cooler (72-118 volts running through it). The draw-back is the fine dust that gets blown into the FM-60. I tried a fan filter but for this particular computer fan, it blocks too much air. Maybe a higher RPM fan might work with a filter.

    And yes, it's a pain in the arse disconnecting/unmounting the FM-60 and removing the casing so that I can blow-out the dust with the compressor!

    (I mounted the fan on the bottom-center screw on the front of the FM-60 with an L bracket, bent for the best angle. Removed the FM-60 bottom cover of course. The fan runs off the FM-60's DC AUX through a fused DC power strip. I also added computer fans just under the inverter as well).
  • Prof_JEGZY
    Prof_JEGZY Registered Users Posts: 1
    I am trying to make a decision whether or not purchase Midnite Classic 150 Charge Controller.  My array is Solar Panel 10x140watts with a 2.5kva/36V inverter.  I am concerned about my inverter Voltage.  Will this controller work with a 36V inverter?  or Should I go for Outback FM-80
  • softdown
    softdown Solar Expert Posts: 3,812 ✭✭✭✭
    I am trying to make a decision whether or not purchase Midnite Classic 150 Charge Controller.  My array is Solar Panel 10x140watts with a 2.5kva/36V inverter.  I am concerned about my inverter Voltage.  Will this controller work with a 36V inverter?  or Should I go for Outback FM-80
    In the "off-grid grounding" thread, Vic recently stated that both the Outback FM and the Midnite Classic can be set for 36 volt charging.

    As for the original post: There seem to be two principal reasons to go with the Midnite Classic;
    1) Firmware is field flashable (appeals to geeks)
    2) Will handle higher voltage PV strings and has built-in capacity for dealing with Hyper VoC (big concern in very cold environs)

    The Midnite also costs significantly more. Until Midnite has an inverter, I would personally go with an Outback inverter and charge controller tandem....unless the aforementioned Midnite advantages appealed to me.

    For Prof JEGZY....you have an inverter already so there is less of a reason to prefer Outback. Our host always seems to offer very good prices on Outback charge controllers.
    First Bank:16 180 watt Grape Solar with  FM80 controller and 3648 Inverter....Fullriver 8D AGM solar batteries. Second Bank/MacGyver Special: 10 165(?) watt BP Solar with Renogy MPPT 40A controller/ and Xantrex C-35 PWM controller/ and Morningstar PWM controller...Cotek 24V PSW inverter....forklift and diesel locomotive batteries