Demonstration of Generator Support

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  • inetdoginetdog Posts: 3,121Solar Expert ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Demonstration of Generator Support
    ChrisOlson wrote: »
    Our host has the Radian for $4150 bucks. I got one in my cart. I just haven't clicked on "checkout" yet :D
    --
    Chris

    Go ahead and click "checkout", just don't enter your credit card number. :D
    SMA SB 3000, old BP panels.
  • Blackcherry04Blackcherry04 Posts: 2,486Solar Expert ✭✭✭
    Re: Demonstration of Generator Support
    mtdoc wrote: »

    BTW - Blackcherry - I'm sure you realize this but one thing I've found is that if you forget to change the "AC transfer control" to "GEN" then the inverter will try to do gen support but eventually the generator gets overloaded, it's voltage output drops so the inverter drops it out, takes on all the load for a bit then goes back to transferring some back the generator and the cycle starts again.
    I have it set to " Gen ". I have the Aac set to 5 amps. I will gradually increase it to find the sweet spot for the amps input. I actually tried this with the Magnum Inverter by setting it the charger at 20%, the problem is when it transfers it automatically goes to 100% and then will drop to 20%. That causes the Generator to surge and Fault. So far the GFX seems to ramp up and down, so you do not get any surge.
  • mtdocmtdoc Posts: 600Solar Expert
    Re: Demonstration of Generator Support
    inetdog wrote: »
    Go ahead and click "checkout", just don't enter your credit card number. :D

    And a little voice inside my head said:

    "You can check out but you can never leave..."

    ;)
  • mtdocmtdoc Posts: 600Solar Expert
    Re: Demonstration of Generator Support
    ChrisOlson wrote: »
    They're going to have more money than sense. If they had sense they wouldn't be living off-grid because living off-grid is expensive. So from that standpoint is the GS8048 is a perfect match. It's not for the guy that wants small and cheap, and to get by with as little as possible. It's for the premier off-grid system.
    Chris

    I guess it's all relative. Compared to the people I know (and some of the regulars here) who live full time off grid - my system is big and expensive!

    No doubt though a Radian with the RE resource to match it would be a premier system.
  • CariboocootCariboocoot Posts: 17,615Banned ✭✭
    Re: Demonstration of Generator Support

    Right on, Chris. My off-grid system never comes close to taxing my VFX3524. I can't imagine what I'd do with 8kW of power potential! :D
  • gww1gww1 Posts: 963Solar Expert
    Re: Demonstration of Generator Support

    Chris
    Two outback fx inverters is about $4000 and the most you get is 7200 watts. Inverting is expensive, yes.

    Fun to spend your money, you can learn all about it and then tell me.

    Cheers
    gww
  • Blackcherry04Blackcherry04 Posts: 2,486Solar Expert ✭✭✭
    Re: Demonstration of Generator Support

    I just noticed that Xantrex has now re-designed the SW3012, SW 3024, SW 2012 and SW2024 to include " Generator Support ". it's a big deal in a small system. They also have " Stacking " ability for 240 V Output.

    Product Description
    The second generation 3000 watt model has been completely redesigned to include many of the same great features found in its high power counterpart. A key feature enhancement is 'Generator Support Mode' which enables the Freedom SW to supplement a generator when AC loads exceed the generator's capacity.

    NEW - PARALLEL AND SERIES STACKING

    Parallel stacking enables the Freedom SW inverter/chargers to double the AC output in inverter mode. Series stacking enables the Freedom SW inverter/chargers to generate 120/240 V split phase output2

    2 AC source must be split phase, requires Stacking Cable (part# 808-9005)
  • Blackcherry04Blackcherry04 Posts: 2,486Solar Expert ✭✭✭
    Re: Demonstration of Generator Support

    I have had the SW 3012 a week now, What they call " Generator Support " is not, It's more like " Generator Assist " . When the Generator reaches the support amps it switches to the Inverter as the prime source and the Generator input is then supplied to the Inverter as DC amps. All in all I don't find this to be a good way to support a load. This is about a $1,800 investment in something that really does not give you as much as having a stand alone charger feeding the batteries. I am looking for the perfect set-up for a Honda EU 2000 and this is just not it. This is not Generator Support as we know it there the Inverter is synced to Generator output and together they support the load.

    Magnum Is going to release a new Inverter. The MSH2812 and MSH2824 soon. It is supposed to be a true syncing Inverter that will have Generator Support, oh yeah, just another $1,800.
    .
  • ChrisOlsonChrisOlson Posts: 1,807Banned ✭✭
    Re: Demonstration of Generator Support
    I have had the SW 3012 a week now, What they call " Generator Support " is not, It's more like " Generator Assist " . When the Generator reaches the support amps it switches to the Inverter as the prime source and the Generator input is them supplied to the Inverter as DC amps

    How did they manage that trickery in there? They got a separate charger and inverter section in it? That sort of defeats the purpose of Gen Support, which is being able to run overloads with a smaller inverter and generator combination so you don't have buy Big Stuff to run intermittent heavy loads.
    --
    Chris
  • Blackcherry04Blackcherry04 Posts: 2,486Solar Expert ✭✭✭
    Re: Demonstration of Generator Support
    ChrisOlson wrote: »
    How did they manage that trickery in there? They got a separate charger and inverter section in it? That sort of defeats the purpose of Gen Support, which is being able to run overloads with a smaller inverter and generator combination so you don't have buy Big Stuff to run intermittent heavy loads.
    --
    Chris
    I haven't cracked it open yet, so I can't tell you how their doing it, but I am sure it's a charger because the weight went up 7 lb over the old one.. It's weird, you set the AC in amps and the Generator Support amps. The problem is that the highest you can set the support amps is 8 amps AC. Well, a Honda EU 2000 has 13.5 amps. so you end up with 5.5 amps wasted. All in all it's a waste. Just my .02. The Inverter is probably fine, the feature I wanted is lacking.
  • vtmapsvtmaps Posts: 3,738Solar Expert ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Demonstration of Generator Support
    All in all it's a waste. Just my .02. The Inverter is probably fine, the feature I wanted is lacking.

    Bummer:cry: Hopefully that new meanwell battery charger will cheer you up :-) --vtMaps
    4 X 235watt Samsung, Midnite ePanel, Outback VFX3524 FM60 & mate, 4 Interstate L16, trimetric, Honda eu2000i
  • Blackcherry04Blackcherry04 Posts: 2,486Solar Expert ✭✭✭
    Re: Demonstration of Generator Support
    vtmaps wrote: »
    Bummer:cry: Hopefully that new meanwell battery charger will cheer you up :-) --vtMaps
    lol.... I almost forgot about that, I may have to parallel on to this inverter. It might be here tomorrow, it takes about 5-6 days from California to here. It won't be here long, I'll find it a new home quick.
  • ChrisOlsonChrisOlson Posts: 1,807Banned ✭✭
    Re: Demonstration of Generator Support
    It's weird, you set the AC in amps and the Generator Support amps. The problem is that the highest you can set the support amps is 8 amps AC. Well, a Honda EU 2000 has 13.5 amps. so you end up with 5.5 amps wasted

    So let me see if I understand this. You set AC input amps at say 13. Set Gen Support amps to 8. You have the generator running and you put a 13 amp load on it, which the generator could carry fine. But instead the inverter limits the generator to 8 amps that is used to charge the batteries while the batteries have to supply the 13 amps to the load thru the inverter?

    What model inverter is this again? Is this the Xantrex Freedom series?
    --
    Chris
  • Blackcherry04Blackcherry04 Posts: 2,486Solar Expert ✭✭✭
    Re: Demonstration of Generator Support
    ChrisOlson wrote: »
    So let me see if I understand this. You set AC input amps at say 13. Set Gen Support amps to 8. You have the generator running and you put a 13 amp load on it, which the generator could carry fine. But instead the inverter limits the generator to 8 amps that is used to charge the batteries while the batteries have to supply the 13 amps to the load thru the inverter?

    What model inverter is this again? Is this the Xantrex Freedom series?
    --
    Chris
    Yeah, it's a ratio that sets the maximum Gen support based on the ACin amps. If you set the ACin to 10 amps, the maximum of 8 amps for Gen support. You cannot set the AC in to 13 amps, it's 5, 10, 15, 20, 25, or 30 . So if you set the ACin to 15 amps you can set the Gen support to 12 amps Gen support. The only problem is 15 amps causes the Gen to bog down on a load.

    Yes on the charging. The Inverter drops the transfer relay and goes to Invert when it goes to Gen Support. The model is Xantrex SW 3012. So the thing is like a oxy moron, because the generator would support the load without the Inverter.
  • ChrisOlsonChrisOlson Posts: 1,807Banned ✭✭
    Re: Demonstration of Generator Support
    So the thing is like a oxy moron, because the generator would support the load without the Inverter.

    Yeah, I can see that. I don't know what they were thinking when they designed that one.
    --
    Chris
  • Blackcherry04Blackcherry04 Posts: 2,486Solar Expert ✭✭✭
    Re: Demonstration of Generator Support
    ChrisOlson wrote: »
    Yeah, I can see that. I don't know what they were thinking when they designed that one.
    --
    Chris
    There is more weirdness to it. Remember It had to have a AGS ?? ( $160 ). Well it does have to have one, but it doesn't have to be wired up, it just has to plugged into the Zanbus to work. I get so discussed with these folks, don't any of them ever go to the field and see how people use their equipment ?? This crap is just not designed to the way people use it. Like their chargers, It's variable output, only problem is it 20 %, 40 % 60 % 80 % or 100 %, no way to fine tune it to what you want or what your generator will pull.
  • ChrisOlsonChrisOlson Posts: 1,807Banned ✭✭
    Re: Demonstration of Generator Support

    Yesterday, mid-afternoon, one of the neighbors a few miles away called because the utility power was out due an ice storm and he was trying to pump up his well pressure. He has a twin Onan 3.5 kW generator on a transfer switch that hooks it to his utility panel so he can run his air compressor for his air-powered well. He also has a Outback GVFX3524 inverter with four six volt golf cart batteries on it to keep his lights and 'fridge and freezer going. He doesn't have solar panels or anything. The inverter is hooked up the utility panel and it charges the batteries and keeps them up so his lights don't go out when the power goes out. And by flipping the transfer switch he can charge the batteries up with his generator.

    His old Onan gave up the ghost and wouldn't start. So he called me to ask if he could borrow our Champion generator and Trace transformer so he could pump up his well pressure. Our Champion generator would not start the motor on the air compressor. It killed it dead in its tracks and tripped the breaker. So I got the wild idea of swapping the wires around in the compressor motor for 120V and putting a temporary cord on it to try to run it with the inverter. The inverter wouldn't start it either. It's older than the hills and all the motor would do is hum, then overload the inverter.

    He don't have a Mate for his inverter so we couldn't try using the Gen/Grid Support feature in it, because no way to set it up. But I told him about it, and that it might be able to run his well compressor on 120V using that feature with both the generator and inverter together. So he's going to order a Mate for it and I'm going to help him set it up.

    So question for mtdoc - the old Onan (needs a fuel pump) has a 15 amp two-pole breaker on it. But he'll be able to use only one leg of the generator (maybe 2,000 surge watts) and the inverter will have to supply the rest to start that air compressor when the power is out. What settings do I use in the Mate for that? I am TOTALLY lost trying to figure out the Outback's Mate and never have been able to figure out the menus in it.

    Thanks!
    --
    Chris
  • Ralph DayRalph Day Posts: 867Solar Expert ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Demonstration of Generator Support

    I'm stepping up to the desk, teacher... how the heck does compressed air provide water to a house? Never heard of this before. Always ready to learn.

    Ralph
  • ChrisOlsonChrisOlson Posts: 1,807Banned ✭✭
    Re: Demonstration of Generator Support

    Ralph, I'm not exactly sure. He has an air compressor that forces air down the well in one pipe and forces water up in another. I guess it works pretty good but I'm not sure of what's in the well to make it do that.
    --
    Chris
  • Ralph DayRalph Day Posts: 867Solar Expert ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Demonstration of Generator Support

    Water?
    The well head/casing must be well sealed, and no cracks or fissures in the rock if the water can be forced up a pipe to the house. No doubt someone will appear to explain the theory and application to us (please).

    Ralph
  • vtmapsvtmaps Posts: 3,738Solar Expert ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Demonstration of Generator Support
    Ralph Day wrote: »
    I'm stepping up to the desk, teacher... how the heck does compressed air provide water to a house? Never heard of this before. Always ready to learn.

    air powered motor, sort of like in your air powered shop tools. Often used where you want to oxygenate the water. --vtMaps

    edit: There are also a number of air powered submersible pumps that pump an air-water "foam". They have no moving parts and are good for sandy water. They are not positive displacement and are less efficient than air-motor pumps.

    --vtMaps
    4 X 235watt Samsung, Midnite ePanel, Outback VFX3524 FM60 & mate, 4 Interstate L16, trimetric, Honda eu2000i
  • Blackcherry04Blackcherry04 Posts: 2,486Solar Expert ✭✭✭
    Re: Demonstration of Generator Support

    It's one of three or four types, the simplest would be a air lift, then a diaphragm or a piston. Any Air Motor could turn a impeller or a warble plate.

    We never know how a Industry was developed. probably some electric motor manufacturer figured out how to encapsulate a motor and hooked it to a pump, then everyone else said Me To, before you knew it, the standard was electric submersible pumps.


    Chris, in my GFX all you do is turn the Generator Support on in the advance menu ( on by default ) , It works in both Grid or Gen. By choosing one of them you can have two different ACin breaker sizes. By choosing Gen you also disable all the selling features.


    Grid/Generator Support
    A system display is required to control this feature. When this feature is enabled, the inverter limits
    the current draw from an AC source, augmenting it with additional current from the batteries when
    necessary. This helps prevent overloading a small AC breaker or generator during short-term use.

     Initially, the AC source current is used for both loads and battery charging. In the MATE system display, the
    ac1/grid limit or ac2/gen limit settings dictate the maximum AC draw. If the AC draw exceeds this setting,
    the inverter reduces its charge rate to give priority to the loads.

     The charge rate will be reduced as much as necessary to support the loads. If the loads equal the
    amperage setting, the charge rate will be zero.

     If the AC loads exceed the amperage setting, the charger will begin operating in reverse. It will take power
    from the batteries and use it to support the incoming AC current.

    In the MATE system display, this feature is activated by the ac2/gen support menu item, located in the
    ADVANCED menus. (See the MATE manual.)

     Although the menu is titled “ac2 gen support”, it functions equally well whether the AC source is a
    generator or the utility grid.

     Choose between generator or grid criteria using the MATE’s ac transfer control menu. The default is grid.
    The <GRID> and <GEN> soft keys will toggle between these respective options.

     The default selection is on. It can be switched off using the <OFF> soft key. The MATE’s ac transfer
    control menu must be selected to gen in order to do this. In current models, if ac transfer control is set to
    grid, the support feature cannot be disabled.
    .
  • ChrisOlsonChrisOlson Posts: 1,807Banned ✭✭
    Re: Demonstration of Generator Support

    Blackcherry04 - thanks, I copied that to a text file and printed it. Although I'm sure a manual will come with his Mate too. I told him to order a Mate from NAWS and it's supposed to be here this week.

    My problem has always been navigating the menus in the Mate. I get lost and start pushing buttons at random, it doesn't do what I want, so then if I just leave it alone it will return the "home" screen by itself so I can start over :D

    There is no air motor in the well. That I know. I think it might be like a double acting air piston pump. I'll make sure to ask him about that.
    --
    Chris
  • Blackcherry04Blackcherry04 Posts: 2,486Solar Expert ✭✭✭
    Re: Demonstration of Generator Support
    ChrisOlson wrote: »
    Blackcherry04 - thanks, I copied that to a text file and printed it. Although I'm sure a manual will come with his Mate too. I told him to order a Mate from NAWS and it's supposed to be here this week.

    My problem has always been navigating the menus in the Mate. I get lost and start pushing buttons at random, it doesn't do what I want, so then if I just leave it alone it will return the "home" screen by itself so I can start over :D

    There is no air motor in the well. That I know. I think it might be like a double acting air piston pump. I'll make sure to ask him about that.
    --
    Chris
    The Mate takes a little learning time. Whoever did it had two left hands. The Mate Manual is a little fuzzy on the Generator Support, I guess it because it's for all of the inverters they make. Actually what I posted is a better explanation of it. Some things have changed in the controller program, but the Mate Manual was never updated to match the change.

    I remember the confusion that the Mate Manual says that gen support is NOT active function, but it is, but only in the GTFX, GVFX & GFX.

    This might help you, if it opens. Even though is says International, it applies.

    Attachment not found.

    .
  • ChrisOlsonChrisOlson Posts: 1,807Banned ✭✭
    Re: Demonstration of Generator Support

    Just came from my neighbor's place to pick up our Champion generator. He built his air powered well pump and I looked at another one he has laying in his shop. The only moving parts in it are two check valves - one on the bottom of a "collector tube" made of PVC, and another on the top. And it has a air powered relay on the top of the well. The water flows in the bottom check valve, the air powered relay turns on air to the "collector" which closes the bottom check valve and forces the water up the pipe. The air relay turns off the air and exhausts it to relieve the pressure on the "collector", which closes the top check valve, it refills thru the bottom check valve, and just keeps on cycling.

    He said it pumps up his pressure tank to 40 psi no problem as long as he has 40 psi of air pressure. He said his compressor only runs once a day and it will pump water all day for he and his wife's needs, plus some cattle and a couple pigs they got, running off the big air tank on the compressor. The only electricity it requires to run it is what it takes to run the air compressor.

    He said he copied it from the Amish people and they use a gas engine to pump up their air tanks.

    It's so simple you wouldn't even believe it.
    --
    Chris
  • Blackcherry04Blackcherry04 Posts: 2,486Solar Expert ✭✭✭
    Re: Demonstration of Generator Support
    ChrisOlson wrote: »
    There is no air motor in the well. That I know. I think it might be like a double acting air piston pump. I'll make sure to ask him about that.
    --
    Chris
    It's funny that this has come up. I met a engineer type at a car show, he had tried to develop a Oil-less Engine, it failed, but by accident he ended up with a Oil-less Compressor he got a patent on. Well, my car part came in a afterlife for me, I came from the Medical Equipment world. Oil-less air is is a major problem. I was trying to give him a little help and the Sureflo submersible diaphragm pump was something I looked at with a air motor. Introducing air into a well would have some contamination factors that would have to be considered, with the air motor you could contain the exhaust and make it non-contact water. Just something I was considering. Wind as a power source came to mind. It could be done.
  • Blackcherry04Blackcherry04 Posts: 2,486Solar Expert ✭✭✭
    Re: Demonstration of Generator Support
    ChrisOlson wrote: »
    Just came from my neighbor's place to pick up our Champion generator. He built his air powered well pump and I looked at another one he has laying in his shop. The only moving parts in it are two check valves - one on the bottom of a "collector tube" made of PVC, and another on the top. And it has a air powered relay on the top of the well. The water flows in the bottom check valve, the air powered relay turns on air to the "collector" which closes the bottom check valve and forces the water up the pipe. The air relay turns off the air and exhausts it to relieve the pressure on the "collector", which closes the top check valve, it refills thru the bottom check valve, and just keeps on cycling.

    He said it pumps up his pressure tank to 40 psi no problem as long as he has 40 psi of air pressure. He said his compressor only runs once a day and it will pump water all day for he and his wife's needs, plus some cattle and a couple pigs they got, running off the big air tank on the compressor. The only electricity it requires to run it is what it takes to run the air compressor.

    He said he copied it from the Amish people and they use a gas engine to pump up their air tanks.

    It's so simple you wouldn't even believe it.
    --
    Chris
    Yep, a Modified Air Lift. Been around a 1,000 years. I was going to say , I bet the Amish have them, they are masters at modification.
  • ChrisOlsonChrisOlson Posts: 1,807Banned ✭✭
    Re: Demonstration of Generator Support
    I was going to say , I bet the Amish have them, they are masters at modification.

    Indeed - the Amish are the modern masters of off-grid living. We bought our kitchen cabinets and table and chairs from the Amish people that live not too far from us. They are some of the nicest people you will ever meet, and when they build something out of wood there is no place on earth that can match the quality and beauty of what they build. Nor the price. It is real old-world craftsmanship that beats modern CNC machining.
    --
    Chris
  • Blackcherry04Blackcherry04 Posts: 2,486Solar Expert ✭✭✭
    Re: Demonstration of Generator Support
    ChrisOlson wrote: »
    Indeed - the Amish are the modern masters of off-grid living. We bought our kitchen cabinets and table and chairs from the Amish people that live not too far from us. They are some of the nicest people you will ever meet, and when they build something out of wood there is no place on earth that can match the quality and beauty of what they build. Nor the price. It is real old-world craftsmanship that beats modern CNC machining.
    --
    Chris
    I deal with them a lot, I was showing one a gas lift cylinder on a tailgate the other day. I was thinking, I wonder what this will turn up on....lol.
  • BB.BB. Posts: 27,882Super Moderators, Administrators admin
    Re: Demonstration of Generator Support

    Air Lift water pumps.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
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