Anyone have an opinion about Honda vs. Yamaha

thorsness · January 2010

I have gotten lots of good advice about my Honda EU2000 from the group. All of it has helped, but only temporarily, and it reverts to surging followed by running on half choke followed by not running at all. I then dig my noisy, but reliable, Coleman out of the snow in order to give my batteries a charge. If I replace the Honda, does anyone have an opinion about how reliable the same size Yamaha is?

As always, thanks very much.

JB

RCinFLA · January 2010

Re: Anyone have an opinion about Honda vs. Yamaha

Sounds like a fuel flow, gummed up carborator.

Sometimes the plastic fuel tube from gas tank get kinked or cracked.

Clean out carb and replace fuel filter if it has one. Don't leave fuel in it for long unused months.

BB. · January 2010

Re: Anyone have an opinion about Honda vs. Yamaha

This is a good group for Honda eu2000i related discussions:

http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/Honda_EU2000_Generators/

-Bill

icarus · January 2010

Re: Anyone have an opinion about Honda vs. Yamaha

Pepsi or Coke?
Pontiac or Olds?
Gmc or Chevy truck.

I think that they are both good products. Honda does have an edge (IMHO) In that they make a full line of small engine stuff from snow blowers to pumps. I have never had one that has had a problem.

If yours is surging, I would clean the float bowl, and the screen at the bottom of the tank. Running well on half choke is usually a fuel starvation issue. Also blow out the main jets. Gummy old fuel will raise havoc with little carbs. I try not to leave fuel in the carbs ever, and not in the tank for more than a month or so if I can.

If it is happening often, I suggest that you clean the tank thoroughly, followed by good fuel management. Filter, no water etc.

Tony

PS If you wish to dump the Honda, let me know and I'll send you my shipping address... LOL

dwh · January 2010

Re: Anyone have an opinion about Honda vs. Yamaha

I would first try running some Sea Foam though it:

http://www.seafoamsales.com/motor-treatment/index.html

No opinion of Honda vs. Yamaha - except that I believe the electric start Yamahas have the ability to temporarily tap the starting battery to handle surge loads. That's a nice feature if you have surge loads.

Dave Angelini · January 2010

Re: Anyone have an opinion about Honda vs. Yamaha

While it is easy to suspect the fuel system, it could also be in the inverter, a sensitivity to the battery load or other loads. Things break! How old was she?

icarus · January 2010

Re: Anyone have an opinion about Honda vs. Yamaha

David,

It is possible, but if it has run right, AND it tends to run "right" 1/2 choked strongly suggests fuel problems, most likely carb. Could also be a bad plug. I had a Honda powered fire pump that got a bit of water in the fuel. I took the carb apart dozens of times, including new floats and seats, tank filter, every thing I could think of. It would start and run fine for a few minutes, and then it would falter, and the only way I could get it to keep running was to mess with the choke. As a last resort, I changed the plug, (old one looked perfect!) and it has run perfectly since. In these days of modern HV electronic ignitions we tend to forget the simple things. Old days, points, plugs and condenser would have been the first thing to look at.

Tony

Dave Angelini · January 2010

Re: Anyone have an opinion about Honda vs. Yamaha

Hi Tony,

We are on the page, but I always have to say that doing failure analysis requires an open mind!

--Dave

icarus · January 2010

Re: Anyone have an opinion about Honda vs. Yamaha

David,

I have spent way too much of my life overlooking the obvious! The problem with too many modern automotive "technicians" is they have either forgotten or have never know basic diagnostic skills. If it doesn't show up on the scan tool, there isn't a problem. Over the years, the best diagnostic tool is still your ears, (and nose, and touch, and eyes!)

Tony

westbranch · January 2010

Re: Anyone have an opinion about Honda vs. Yamaha

I've got the 1000i model and took it in for service after I was unable to do a right proper job on the carb, plus it is too small to handle ( arms are too short to get it far enough away from my eyes!)

dealer told me it may be the carb, but that these models are prone to 'hunt' when the load is at the bottom end of the machines capability.. a function of the inverter circuitry...8) and that it is normal...

Eric

icarus · January 2010

Re: Anyone have an opinion about Honda vs. Yamaha

Eric,

You suffer from the same malady that I do. I made it gloatingly into my 50's with great eyes! I now pay the price! Close work is murder, sometime with two or three lenses over my eyes!

That is interesting about the Honda "hunting". Mine runs perfectly with perfect voltage/freq with little or no variance in rpm, regardless of load. I have two of them and I chain them together only to run the heat cable on the water line, if I have been gone for more than a week. (it will freeze for just a couple of feet between the top of the ice and the liquid level of the lake) Thaws in about 10 minutes with heat tape and insulation on the line.

Tony

Photowhit · January 2010

Re: Anyone have an opinion about Honda vs. Yamaha

One of the few insults I have had in my life was being stranded in Florida with a Yamaha SX750, needing a primary chain, the dealer said 2 weeks for blue label service, I guess they thought it had to come from Japan.

I was lucky enough that the person doing the work use to race them, he called a buddy in Atlanta who called the warehouse which had one sitting on the shelf!!!

I personally will never do business with a company who can't find their backside with both hands...

This soapbox speak brought to you by Yamaha service.

RCinFLA · January 2010

Re: Anyone have an opinion about Honda vs. Yamaha

I have a Yamaha EF3000i. It works great. Makes less noise then my outside central A/C unit.

There are so many little detail extras you don't find on B&S engines, like a set screw and drain tube for the carborator bowl to drain any remaining gas from carb before storing.

icarus · January 2010

Re: Anyone have an opinion about Honda vs. Yamaha

Photowhit wrote: »

One of the few insults I have had in my life was being stranded in Florida with a Yamaha SX750, needing a primary chain, the dealer said 2 weeks for blue label service, I guess they thought it had to come from Japan.

I was lucky enough that the person doing the work use to race them, he called a buddy in Atlanta who called the warehouse which had one sitting on the shelf!!!

I personally will never do business with a company who can't find their backside with both hands...

This soapbox speak brought to you by Yamaha service.

Clearly you have never done business with anyone in Thunder Bay On, Canada. The pat answer for EVERYTHING is, we don't have it, followed by we can't get it, followed by, why did you buy this in the first place, followed by, would you like to by this years model?

I have never seen a city that to it's core (with a few great exceptions) has retail malaise. I have chalked it up to the fact that it is 500 kms in ANY direction to a town over 1500 people. As such they are the service centre for the entire area stretching from Sault Ste. Marie to Winnipeg, and they are under the impression that they are indispensable. Little do they know that I can get nearly everything overnighted from nearly anywhere in N.America.

Since we live on an Island, (as do our only neighbours) outboard motors are our life blood. The dealer in Thunder Bay can take 2 weeks to get parts,, sometimes longer. I can get them Purolator/fedex to me tomorrow if I get it ordered before noon. And that is 150 miles out of town! The Fedex guy drops it in the bush on the way by!

So don't be so quick to blame the manufacturer, when it could be the dealer,

Tony

niel · January 2010

Re: Anyone have an opinion about Honda vs. Yamaha

"Clearly you have never done business with anyone in Thunder Bay On, Canada. The pat answer for EVERYTHING is, we don't have it, followed by we can't get it, followed by, why did you buy this in the first place, followed by, would you like to by this years model?"

you don't have to be way out there to run into that.
btw, you forgot the rest of it.
followed by, it is on back order, followed by but we have the super duper delux model in stock for an arm and a leg.

blatherings of bait and switch?:grr

thorsness · January 2010

Re: Anyone have an opinion about Honda vs. Yamaha

Thanks to all as usual .
Took it to my mechanic last night. Started it up, then started surging and needed choke and then it quit. He took it apart and there was visible sediment and some rust in the carb bowl. Cleaned all that out, shot carb cleaner in every possible orifice, then it would hardly run at all. Off came the bowl again and no fuel. Pronounced the fuel pump dead or dieing. We'll see. I think that somewhere along the line I poured a slug of water and/or dirty gas into it. I certainly let it sit for months with old gas. So your advice in that regard, and otherwise, is good. I have been very careful with fuel lately and used Seafoam but perhaps too late. I'll report.
Thanks again.

JB

Photowhit · January 2010

Re: Anyone have an opinion about Honda vs. Yamaha

You could be correct, the same dealer rebuilt the top end of an RD350 w/o tourque testing the crankshaft, 350 miles later I limped in hammering on 1 cylinder and half a crank, basicly they said "tough luck". (Did I mention the poor design of YamaLube? and yes I'll never catch up on my carbon foot print for that bike, 6 gallons of gas to a quart of oil!)

But I did call Gainsville, and maybe Jax (I was in Tallahassee) and got a much the same info. I had driven it down, from NC w/chain noise and the cam chain adjuster was all the way in, (shaft drive bike) I could limp to near by towns where I had a place to stay.

While I know these were high maintanance bikes, I put more time and expense into maintanance on these 2 that the 5 honda 4 cylinder bikes I've owned (granted the honda 500, 550 and 750 4's were know to be dependable.)

Way more than I ever wanted to get into, for me Yamaha would not be an option.

RCinFLA · January 2010

Re: Anyone have an opinion about Honda vs. Yamaha

Fuel pump on a EU2000?

Don't know the Honda EU2000 but would surprise me.

update: looks like it might. I read something about external tank capability. Even though internal tank is above carb, there apparently is a fuel pump to enable an external fuel tank. Probably just a cam actuated plastic pump.

(that's not a legit parallel cord, looks like a home made suicide cord.)

icarus · January 2010

Re: Anyone have an opinion about Honda vs. Yamaha

Eu 1000-2000 series doesn't use a fuel pump. If the Mechanic tries to sell you service on a fuel pump, I would consider a new mechanic!

The external tank just pumps with siphon with a bulb pimer, if you have the external tank.

I would take the carb completely off, and use carb cleaner, compressed air to get to everything. Cleaning the carb on the engine may work, but a couple of nuts and you can do it right.

Tony

BB. · January 2010

Re: Anyone have an opinion about Honda vs. Yamaha

As far as I know--the eu2000i (and probably the whole euX000i) family does have a fuel pump. (I think I read it uses crankcase air to operate the diaphragm).

Hmmm... Here is an old PDF manual for the eu2000i (PDF page 60, manual page 58):

After initial fueling (or any time the generator is run completely out of fuel), starting the engine may require additional pulls of the starter rope. This generator utilizes a vacuum operated fuel pump and may require additional pulls to draw fuel into the carburetor.

As I understand, that is why the fueling kit works with the eu2000i without priming/siphon feed of fuel. The pump allows a modest vacuum to pull directly from a fuel can (fill the genset's main fuel tank first, then as the level is drawn down, it will pull fuel from the external fuel can).

-Bill

Kamala · January 2010

Re: Anyone have an opinion about Honda vs. Yamaha

icarus wrote: »

... the best diagnostic tool is still your ears ...

In 1972 I rebuilt a Triumph TR3A. It had dual SU carbs. The recommended tuning method was to put one end of a length of "surgical" hose to your ear and place the other into the the intake of the carb. I don't recall the exact procedure, but as I recall, it involved making adjustments on one or the other carb and moving the tube from the other to the one until they sounded the same.

Regarding the OP... I have a Honda eu1000. It works very well. Only problem (not really) was in temps below 30F. Could not use the quiet or "green" feature. I think it is called the ECO switch. Worked OK at low temp with this feature off.

Enjoy!

Mangas · January 2010

Re: Anyone have an opinion about Honda vs. Yamaha

Two of my Hondas did that after sitting awhile.

My understanding from the tech who cleaned the lines and carb out is the ethanol they add to the fuel these days is the culprit. I use fuel stabilzer now and haven't had any problems since.

RCinFLA · January 2010

Re: Anyone have an opinion about Honda vs. Yamaha

Page 51 of manual, see reference to a fuel pump on item h.

Storage procedures:

Drain the gasoline.

a. Remove the fuel tank cap, and empty the fuel tank into an
approved gasoline container using a commercially available hand
siphon. Reinstall the fuel tank cap.
b. Loosen the cover screw and remove the maintenance cover.
c. Loosen the carburetor drain screw.
d. Drain the gasoline from the carburetor into a suitable container.
e. Remove the spark plug maintenance cover.
f. Remove the spark plug cap.
g. Turn the engine switch to the ON position.

h. Pull the starter grip 3 to 4 times to drain the gasoline from the fuel
pump into a suitable container.

i. Turn the engine switch to the OFF position.
j. Tighten the carburetor drain screw.

Also page 58

"This generator utilizes a vacuum operated fuel pump and may
require additional pulls to draw fuel into the carburetor."

RCinFLA · January 2010

Re: Anyone have an opinion about Honda vs. Yamaha

The storage procedures looks like a real involved process.

A simpler way.

Siphon any remaining gas out of fuel tank.

Startup gen and run until it starts to hunt as it runs out of gas. Pull the choke in and out to keep engine running as long as possible. When it finally stops, give it a couple more pulls with choke on to ensure all gas is out of the system.

westbranch · January 2010

Re: Anyone have an opinion about Honda vs. Yamaha

Kamala wrote: »

. I have a Honda eu1000. It works very well. ...in temps below 30F.... Could not use the quiet or "green" feature.

Enjoy!

Hmmm .... at a warm 30 F ours work fine on the eco setting as a matter of fact it works well at - 20 F once warmed up, a minute or so of choke & idle before applying loads.

The 'hunting' is not constant but distinct enough that you do notice it when it happens, then it will stabilize for a while..

cheers,

Eric

westbranch · January 2010

Re: Anyone have an opinion about Honda vs. Yamaha

RC, concur and to make it a bit simpler :

run it out of gas ...then open the float bowl drain to get the last few drops out of the bowl. I tilt my unit too...;)

& if you really want to be finicky, pull the cord a couple of times , ...

cheers,
Eric

icarus · January 2010

Re: Anyone have an opinion about Honda vs. Yamaha

I stand corrected, and a bit humbled. It does indeed have a vacuum fuel pump! Sorry for the misinformation. I was thinking about my EX hondas! That said, I think it very unlikely that that fuel pump is going to fail. Much more likely that the fuel system has stuff in it. Ethanol wrecks havoc with some rubber and synthetic fuel system parts. If you live in an area that routinely uses 10% ethanal, it might be eating your fuel system. I don't know if fuel stabilizer helps with that.

As for the ECO throttle problem, in the cold. Start the engine with the ECO throttle off, (as suggested in the owners manual!) Let it run for a while until it is fully warmed up, then switch on the ECO. If it is really cold, it still may not like running on the ECO, but I routinely run mine in 0f ambient.

Finally, the owners manual suggestions for draining the fuel system for storeage is spot on. Problem is most folks don't bother.

Tony

RCinFLA · January 2010

Re: Anyone have an opinion about Honda vs. Yamaha

The inverter/generator ECO (energy saving mode) control slows down the engine and adjusts its speed based on the load demand.

Inverter/generator have a permanent magnet alternator (like wind generator) that generates between 190v and 300v depending on load and engine speed.

The three phase alternator is full wave rectified and fed to the AC inverter which, on Honda and Yamaha, are PWM true sinewave inverters. ( I have read, via forum threads, the Honeywell units sold at Home Depot are modified sinewave output).

Only issue with the ECO mode is sudden surges will cause a momentary clipping of sinewave peak as the engine is brought up to speed to meet the heavier load. Some motors and refrig's don't like this. If you have a problem turn ECO off which causes the engine to run at 3600 to 3800 rpm's regardless of electrical load.

Because the AC is made by the inverter, there is a simple feature addition on Honda's to allow two generators to share a sync signal that phase aligns their output, allowing paralleling two generators.

BB. · January 2010

Re: Anyone have an opinion about Honda vs. Yamaha

RCinFLA wrote: »

Because the AC is made by the inverter, there is a simple feature addition on Honda's to allow two generators to share a sync signal that phase aligns their output, allowing paralleling two generators.

The euX000i Honda's do not have a separate shared "sync" signal (like stacked inverters will have)... The AC outputs are plugged together (with the gensets not running), one is started (becomes the Master?) and then the second is started (becomes the slave?--sort of like grid tied).

I assume that they are doing "droop" current sharing (120 VAC 0% current output, 115 VAC is 100% output--or whatever the real numbers they use are).

So--it is possible to use a Honda "eu" a bit like a GT inverter with some other power source (another brand of genset or even AC mains)--but I would not as I don't know anything about how it really does the current sharing and what happens with any failures/missteps.

At least, when you have two equalized gensets in parallel--the wiring/protection is sized for any reasonable faults.

-Bill

RCinFLA · January 2010

Re: Anyone have an opinion about Honda vs. Yamaha

Good question.

There might be a tolerance match to the output voltage that Honda sets. (like two parallel Xantrex inverters). Putting it up against a variable power grid might not be good. The inverters probably use a 32 kHz clock crystal for timebase. Interesting that although pretty accurate, there will be drift over time between the two generators timebases. They must have some way of doing continuous sync matching. I thought there was a separate sync cable. The inverter modules are all epoxy potted up so can only see tops of filter caps and coils.

I have looked at my Yamaha and it just flat tops (with a slight downward slope) the tops of the sinewave when ECO on and I flip on a hairdryer, indicative of the D.C. input to inverter collapsing below the 180 vdc or so, necessary to keep enough overhead for PWM H-bridge MOSFET's and output filter loss to make the 170 v sinewave peak. Output is always dead on 120 vrms and 60 Hz with a near perfect sinewave. (unless overloaded)

I was thinking the engine speed control was just keeping the 180 vdc minimum.

Who wants to experiment with their generator, to be the guinea pig?

Anyone have an opinion about Honda vs. Yamaha

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