New Guy with VATW question

Hi, I,m Mick from Australia,
I didn,t see an introduction section so I,ll say my hello,s hear. This looks like a nice site and hopefully I can learn and share info. I am a boilermaker/ welder and back yard engineer. So if I can help anybody in that regard, well let me know.

I need some advise in regards to a VAWT, I am making one. It will measure approx. 1400mm in dia. and approx. 1800mm high. I don,t know how meanly "vanes" to put in it. Each vane will be about 400mm x 1800 with three folds in it for strenght. I thought about six. Does anybody have any veiws on this?

Cheers Mick

Comments

  • BB.BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 29,980 admin
    Re: New Guy with VATW question

    Welcome aboard Mick!

    While there are a few folks here that are into building their own wind turbines... There are some forums/sites that may help you more:

    www.otherpower.com
    www.builditsolar.com (links to Wind section)

    While I am not a big fan of wind myself--You may wish to focus on the standard Horizontal Axis Wind Turbines.

    The VAWT's seem to be mostly smoke and mirrors (at least the commercial versions).

    And even with HAWT's, there are few manufacturers of "home sized" turbines out there that are very good (building your own may be a way around that issue).

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • peterakopeterako Solar Expert Posts: 144 ✭✭
    Re: New Guy with VATW question

    Hi there welcome,

    Sorry but you have to turn the question around :confused: meaning.

    First see what is you avr. and maximum wind speed what is the power production that you want and what is the installation height.

    My fast calculation and i can inform you that your six vanes will give a slow speed max. 230 rpm. But for a direct drive generator you need speed. What is the construction material used.

    A friend has close by a similar design using only three vanes just above the tree height and is producing max.900W.

    Greetings from Greece
  • System2System2 Posts: 6,290 admin
    Re: New Guy with VATW question

    Hi Guys,
    Thanks for the greetings. Bill, I have checked the links ( thank you) out and they have some good info, peterako the VAWT is about 1800mm high and about 1400mm in diametre and about 1000mm to 1500mm off the ground ( to bottom of turbine). It can be placed in a cleared five arce paddock. If I can make it work I might lift it up 5,6,7 metres. Because its really an experiment at the moment it will be easier to work on it on the ground.I,ve planned to make the vanes out of .9 or 1mm steel sheet, approx 1800 x 400. I,m not shore of the wind speed, but when it is windy it blows good in the windy season and regularly causes damage. I can find figures if it is important to you. Are you saying that a six vane is less speed than a three?

    I am interested I your friends VAWT, how big is it. What are the specs? 900w max sounds OK. Pic,s would be great!

    Cheers Mick
  • GreenPowerManiacGreenPowerManiac Solar Expert Posts: 453 ✭✭✭
    Re: New Guy with VATW question

    I guess the design is what will make or break the outcome. Here is my idea for a VAWT: PMA motor (underneath), large squirrel cage fitted to the PMA's shaft. Something out of an old furnace. Motor must have some weather protection so I'd enclose it in my usual HAWT plastic case. The squirrel cage must be protected from one side of the wind tunnel. A floating cover with a HAWT Tail fin to guide the wind cover ? This protects the cage from back-pedaling into the incoming wind, and the other portion works like a sideways paddle wheel on a boat. See my sketch below.
    Nature's Design & Green Energy on FaceBook : Stop by and "Like" us anytime.. Many up-to-date articles about Renewables every day.
    WWW.GreenAnything.Net    Ad free website.
    Lots of DIY Renewable Energy Projects on ETSY : Solar Panel builds, Wind Turbine builds, Rain Barrel build,etc.  
  • mike95490mike95490 Solar Expert Posts: 8,569 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: New Guy with VATW question
    I guess the design is what will make or break the outcome. Here is my idea for a VAWT: PMA motor (underneath), large squirrel cage fitted to the PMA's shaft. Something out of an old furnace. Motor must have some weather protection so I'd enclose it in my usual HAWT plastic case. The squirrel cage must be protected from one side of the wind tunnel. A floating cover with a HAWT Tail fin to guide the wind cover ? This protects the cage from back-pedaling into the incoming wind, and the other portion works like a sideways paddle wheel on a boat. See my sketch below.

    This leaves your alternator/generator's bearings & case, to take ALL the wind load & shock. Also means it's going to come apart. You need to have a gear, or belt or chain to offload the wind stress from the generator.
    Powerfab top of pole PV mount | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
    || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
    || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

    solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
    gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister ,

  • GreenPowerManiacGreenPowerManiac Solar Expert Posts: 453 ✭✭✭
    Re: New Guy with VATW question

    Let me explain why I beg to differ.


    Alternator bearings are set up for a pulley load, creating much greater demand in an automobile. How much load do you think it will get from 10-30mph winds ? A couple pounds, if that ? Compare it to 20-30 pounds of load it's designed to do.
    Nature's Design & Green Energy on FaceBook : Stop by and "Like" us anytime.. Many up-to-date articles about Renewables every day.
    WWW.GreenAnything.Net    Ad free website.
    Lots of DIY Renewable Energy Projects on ETSY : Solar Panel builds, Wind Turbine builds, Rain Barrel build,etc.  
  • mike95490mike95490 Solar Expert Posts: 8,569 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: New Guy with VATW question

    Your auto pulley load is only a couple of inches from the case. Add on a foot or 3, some air foils, and now you have some real loads.

    And auto alternators need to spin at pretty high speeds (about 1,000 RPM) before they generate much power and their wimpy fans start to move much air thru them.

    Now Doug at http://selsam.com/ has been using modded auto alternators, and this shot shows how, when he uses rigid shafts, he adds more bearings.
    DLAGONFRY3.jpg
    Powerfab top of pole PV mount | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
    || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
    || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

    solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
    gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister ,

  • icarusicarus Solar Expert Posts: 5,400 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: New Guy with VATW question

    I think I want to be FAR away from this rig in any substantial wind!

    Tony
  • GreenPowerManiacGreenPowerManiac Solar Expert Posts: 453 ✭✭✭
    Re: New Guy with VATW question

    The rotor shaft does not officially extend more than a few inches. Technically, the housing and squirrel cage are about 1/4" apart. The shroud protects 1/2 of the cage from backlash winds. I guess I can see what's all the fuss is now. My diagram shows a rather long shaft on the side view.

    I guess I'll have to build one to test.......


    Stand as far back as you can ! She's going to blow !

    I most certainly hope so....
    Nature's Design & Green Energy on FaceBook : Stop by and "Like" us anytime.. Many up-to-date articles about Renewables every day.
    WWW.GreenAnything.Net    Ad free website.
    Lots of DIY Renewable Energy Projects on ETSY : Solar Panel builds, Wind Turbine builds, Rain Barrel build,etc.  
  • nielniel Solar Expert Posts: 10,300 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: New Guy with VATW question

    why would a vawt need a tail fin?
  • peterakopeterako Solar Expert Posts: 144 ✭✭
    Re: New Guy with VATW question

    Horseshoe i think it will help you to read first about PMG permanent magnet generator.
    Slow speed +/- 300 rpm and you need 48 magnets grade N40 NdFeb dim. 46x30x10mm.
    slow/medium speed +/- 600 rpm you need 24 magnets grade N40 NdFeb dim. 46x30x10mm.
    medium speed +/- 1200 rpm you need 12 magnets grade N40 NdFeb dim. 46x30x10mm.
    etc.

    Yes you can make it work using two magnets ( around 8000 Rpm ).
    but you do not want that as direct connected.:D

    Using a drive belt, chain or gear is wasting your energy. you already have your BETZ limitation around 50 % .

    Read information on internet from sites as www.scoraigwind.co.uk or www.otherpower.com the free information on this sites are a great resource about wind energy. and you will find information why not to use a VATW.:grr

    Wind power is above the 12 M ground level and there it is really strong.
    Read and we will help for any question.

    Greetings from Greece
  • mike95490mike95490 Solar Expert Posts: 8,569 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: New Guy with VATW question

    Here's the mother of all VAWT DIY wind gens. Mobile too! Surplus TV tower is welded to an old Cat, with outriggers. 4 airfoils. 20KW (est)
    http://www.microcogen.info/index.php?topic=59.0
    Scary awesome.

    index.php?action=dlattach;topic=59.0;attach=95;image
    Powerfab top of pole PV mount | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
    || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
    || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

    solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
    gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister ,

  • GreenPowerManiacGreenPowerManiac Solar Expert Posts: 453 ✭✭✭
    Re: New Guy with VATW question

    Neil,

    The tail fin is for a shroud that covers 1/2 of the spinning cage. Like a paddle wheel, when there's resistance on the opposite side, it kind of defeats the purpose. A fixtured tail fin keeps the shroud in the correct position, eliminating the wind resistance on the return rotation (against the wind).
    Nature's Design & Green Energy on FaceBook : Stop by and "Like" us anytime.. Many up-to-date articles about Renewables every day.
    WWW.GreenAnything.Net    Ad free website.
    Lots of DIY Renewable Energy Projects on ETSY : Solar Panel builds, Wind Turbine builds, Rain Barrel build,etc.  
  • icarusicarus Solar Expert Posts: 5,400 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: New Guy with VATW question

    Mike,
    How do you open the pictures in your link?

    T
  • mike95490mike95490 Solar Expert Posts: 8,569 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: New Guy with VATW question
    icarus wrote: »
    Mike,
    How do you open the pictures in your link?

    T

    Gosh, they are hosted by the site, it's one of the few that photos get thru the nanny filter here at work

    http://www.microcogen.info/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=59.0;attach=466;image

    One photo was enbedded with the img tag, and the link to the page of posts, just has photos in it, all hosted at www.microcogen.info
    Powerfab top of pole PV mount | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
    || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
    || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

    solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
    gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister ,

  • westbranchwestbranch Solar Expert Posts: 5,180 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: New Guy with VATW question

    here is another link for you , go down the right side of the page to the Lenz2 link ...note the Fischer and Paykell (sp?) motor converted to a gen head, lots of other designs once you get further in...

    http://thebackshed.com/Windmill/default.asp

    HTH
    Eric
     
    KID #51B  4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM
    CL#29032 FW 2126/ 2073/ 2133 175A E-Panel WBjr, 3 x 4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM 
    Cotek ST1500W 24V Inverter,OmniCharge 3024,
    2 x Cisco WRT54GL i/c DD-WRT Rtr & Bridge,
    Eu3/2/1000i Gens, 1680W & E-Panel/WBjr to come, CL #647 asleep
    West Chilcotin, BC, Canada
  • GreenPowerManiacGreenPowerManiac Solar Expert Posts: 453 ✭✭✭
    Re: New Guy with VATW question

    Got a different idea. Anyone got an old furnace squirrel cage without the motor ?

    Replace the furnace motor with the PMA & cover the top to keep the elements out. The mounting side of alternator can be mounted with the regular framing on a pole without an axis pivot. The centrifugul force of any rain coming in would suggest the water would be displaced and the PMA protected. Any air flow should be pushed down around the motor.

    Why not get one big enough to cover the PMA from the elements and use the inlet shoot for air inflow ? You'd have to align the tail section enough to offset the air push deflection, I believe. Kind of like an air ram on a tricked out car engine. Does anyone get my picture ?
    Nature's Design & Green Energy on FaceBook : Stop by and "Like" us anytime.. Many up-to-date articles about Renewables every day.
    WWW.GreenAnything.Net    Ad free website.
    Lots of DIY Renewable Energy Projects on ETSY : Solar Panel builds, Wind Turbine builds, Rain Barrel build,etc.  
Sign In or Register to comment.