NorthWind Power info

2

Comments

  • Powers
    Powers Solar Expert Posts: 36
    Re: NorthWind Power info

    Guys,

    I have not returned from out of town. I will be returning on 11/30.
    I will provide as many of your questions as possible when I return.
    Couple of things to clear up in the interim.
    4702 Rt 176, Crystal Lake, IL is our mailing address. Not our physical location. Our physical location is several mile north of Crystal Lake, IL.
    We own and operate two other business that are of proprietary nature. We do not require interaction with the local public. NorthWind Power is one of the three.

    Thanks again,
    Chuck
  • Truth Squad
    Truth Squad Solar Expert Posts: 126 ✭✭
    Re: NorthWind Power info

    So, Powers/Chuck, I take it if someone doesn't buy a wind turbine, they can always get a tattoo next door, eh?

    Now, here's the thing. See, I worked in this industry for ten years. You should have this information at your fingertips on your laptop, even if you're on the road. You came on here on the 11th to tell us you're going to give us this information. Why so long? If it actually existed, you'd have it. You'd know how long you tested these things, you'd know how many were in the test group and where they were tested. I happen to know anyone can spin doctor a power curve. I happen to know anyone can cherry-pick one turbine out of a few and claim that is THE power output instead of testing several and using an average from the collected output of all those turbines over time.

    I will remain very suspicious as to why you're on the road---on a sales trip I take it---without this very basic information on your laptop. The problem is, most of the buying public doesn't know the real questions to ask. And that's what a lot of manufacturers bank on. I'm guessing if you actually have turbines, you're importing them from China and just selling them here based off what the Chinese told you. I've seen this gambit many times.
  • peterako
    peterako Solar Expert Posts: 144 ✭✭
    Re: NorthWind Power info

    Hi power/chuck welcome back.

    as already mentioned by truth squad the information required is not special and normally on technical sheets as a prove to clients.

    You will not buy a new car, seeing only a short video. and the sales person can not answer any technical question .:confused:.

    And the stated company address, is not a company or a showroom.:confused:

    If you want to show up correct in a forum like this, you have to be ready technical.

    see the "midnight classic" MPPT there is a long discussion and the manufacture is proofing all test sites live on internet and members from this forum are testing it.

    that is a good way to have a product before you try to sale it.

    Greetings from Greece
  • mike95490
    mike95490 Solar Expert Posts: 9,583 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: NorthWind Power info
    Powers wrote: »
    Guys,
    I have not returned from out of town. I will be returning on 11/30.


    As others have said.

    Don't underestimate the powers of the intertubes ! If you have something grand, and a widespread bunch of technically savvy folks like it, you are golden. If the story smells a bit "off", the data bits still go out, but they paint a different story. So we are all waiting for the 30th.

    We've seen the pics of inner nacelles, with nasty, broken welds, and heard of the "You must drill a drain hole" story. Tested for 3 years - right.

    I'm sorry I'll be off-line on the 30th, I'll have to get my news a day late.
    Powerfab top of pole PV mount | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
    || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
    || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

    solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
    gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister ,

  • peterako
    peterako Solar Expert Posts: 144 ✭✭
    Re: NorthWind Power info

    by the way your earlier comment "When I return from out of town next week, I will try to address all your questions." does not fit your last one ."I will be returning on 11/30"

    But the a weekend from 10/31 to 11/30 that is nice, and then you try to sale a product:confused:.
    A i will answer next week meaning a month. :grr

    Greetings from Greece8)
  • Powers
    Powers Solar Expert Posts: 36
    Re: NorthWind Power info

    You are partially correct in thinking that some stall tactics are taking place. It is a fact that I am out town until the end of the month.
    Truth Squad you are correct. I do have data on my laptop. You guys are asking some questions that require some detail. We are putting some protection
    on what we feel is proprietary before we answer your questions.

    The basic things you should know before the end of the month.
    1-We do not have electronics in the nacelle.
    2-We do not have blades made of composite. Can anyone confirm whether composite blades will still be intact after twenty years?
    3-The output power is what the chart indicates. Twice the power of some of the other highly acclaimed units.
    4-Less than 2% chance of slip ring failure within twenty years.
    5-The most advanced alternator made to date. Dynamic braking force is the highest in the industry.
    6-Yaw bearing has 30 year history.
    7-No China made components anywhere on the turbine. Made in Crystal Lake Illinois USA.
    8-No drain holes required.

    More to come. Hang in there.
  • Windsun
    Windsun Solar Expert Posts: 1,164 ✭✭
    Re: NorthWind Power info
    peterako wrote: »
    by the way your earlier comment "When I return from out of town next week, I will try to address all your questions." does not fit your last one ."I will be returning on 11/30"

    But the a weekend from 10/31 to 11/30 that is nice, and then you try to sale a product:confused:.
    A i will answer next week meaning a month. :grr

    Greetings from Greece8)

    WOW, tough crowd here :cool:
  • mike95490
    mike95490 Solar Expert Posts: 9,583 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: NorthWind Power info
    Windsun wrote: »
    WOW, tough crowd here :cool:

    When we complain, EF Hutton listens. (anyone remember that old commercial?)
    Powerfab top of pole PV mount | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
    || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
    || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

    solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
    gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister ,

  • Truth Squad
    Truth Squad Solar Expert Posts: 126 ✭✭
    Re: NorthWind Power info

    Ok, a few points:

    1-We do not have electronics in the nacelle.


    Well, that's a step in the correct direction. Good job.

    2-We do not have blades made of composite. Can anyone confirm whether composite blades will still be intact after twenty years?


    Well, the killer of composite blades is two things. First, UV degrades some blades. Second, on marine units, a galvanic reaction between salt water, the blade material, and aluminum hubs creates corrosion of both blades and hub. This all depends on the material. If a manufacturer does diligent, real-world testing and pays the extra buck for quality, these are moot points.

    3-The output power is what the chart indicates. Twice the power of some of the other highly acclaimed units.


    Well, I wish I had a dollar for every time I heard that. You have to prove this statement. Once again, a year of testing with several units in several diffeent locations and the results averaged. One turbine in one place and calling that the true output of them all is not correct.

    4-Less than 2% chance of slip ring failure within twenty years.

    Actually, the slip rings are not that likely to fail with a mechanical design yaw. I know; I used to do warranty repair of a very well-known wind turbine. Once the yaws were of a mechanical design, the number of slip ring failure plummeted to almost zero. People do need to support the wires coming off the leads of the yaw so the weight of the wires isn't pulling at the solder junction between wire and slip ring. But that has nothing to do with the integrity of a good yaw. The slip rings aren't what we're worried about. What's the percent-chance of, oh...., electronics failure within 10 years? Another thing, to truthfully say that there is less than a 2% chance of slip ring failure in twenty years, you have to have tested the turbine for twenty years. A certain manufacturer I know of likes to use the phrase "twenty years" and I know darn well they didn't have twenty years of data to prove that. A word of advice: Don't fall into the "twenty years" trap. After a while, you begin to believe it yourself and that doesn't do you any favors.

    5-The most advanced alternator made to date. Dynamic braking force is the highest in the industry.


    Once again, I wish I had a dollar for every time I heard that. Everyone says that. It's proving it that presents the sticky landing strip for the housefly.

    6-Yaw bearing has 30 year history.


    And this means what? The yaw bearing will last 30 years? The bearing is 30 years in production? Well, most bearings have been around several decades to the point where they're referred to as standard sizes. Also, if your design is good meaning you're not hanging a ridiculous amount of weight off one side of a turbine and thus putting a lot of directional force on the bearing, the lifespan of the yaw bearing will not be an issue. The turbine isn't spinning around the pole too often, so traditional bearing wear for rotation isn't an issue. In warranty repair, replacing yaw bearings wasn't done often, providing the bearings were of quality and the bearing boss was not overly tight. It's the bearings taking the weight of the blades and doing THAT spinning people should be concerned about. Bearing quality is another issue. I have seen American-made bearings that have lasted 30 years or more and were still good. But I've also seen Chinese-made bearings that didn't last two weeks. It's all about design, logic, and quality.

    7-No China made components anywhere on the turbine. Made in Crystal Lake Illinois USA.


    Well, my hat is off to you for that. Can you post some pictures of your factory assembly line?

    8-No drain holes required.


    Well, no. I should hope not. The manufacturer of that turbine did that as a grasping-at-straws measure to fix something they screwed up. Drain holes aren't ever necessary as a rule---especially when one doesn't make the obvious blunder of putting the electronics inside the nacelle.


    I shall await your testing results and parameters. Though I fail to see why it should be proprietary. Again, if I had a dollar for...
  • peterako
    peterako Solar Expert Posts: 144 ✭✭
    Re: NorthWind Power info

    I am still hoping for a perfect design. and that is not easy i am living in a country when a contractor is delaying you must check twice. ( i built my house and my company in this country so i learned my lessen after some time. and yes the lessen is to be tough.;)

    back to the tread.
    Truth squad do not forget the liquid cooling in the tower top. I also want to see more about that. i Do not like to put extra weight high up in the air. put again maybe it is a good solution.

    Greetings from Greece8)
  • Truth Squad
    Truth Squad Solar Expert Posts: 126 ✭✭
    Re: NorthWind Power info

    Well, one thing I know, is that the more complicated you make a wind turbine, the more likely it is to fail. It also reminds me of the old "Space Race" thing. NASA spent a couple million dollars developing a pen that would write in zero gravity. The Russians just handed their cosmonauts a pencil and had done with it.
  • russ
    russ Solar Expert Posts: 593 ✭✭
    Re: NorthWind Power info

    Not to worry with this turbine I think! Whether it runs or not is less than a 150$ per year deal.

    With more or less typical wind speeds of 11 mph they claim an output of 305 watts so - 305 watts * 8760 and a very generous capacity factor of 35% / 1000 = <1000 kWh per year. Maybe 100$ worth of power with 10 cent power.

    Even at a 14 mph the output is maybe 1650 kWh in a year -

    So besides a turbine that makes <150$ worth of power per year you have a mailing address for a warranty.

    Heck of a deal. But they get into Uncle Sam's pocket for incentives/subsidies - at least the supplier will be happy.

    The output is the same as any other turbine - forget the rather silly claims of extra output.
  • Powers
    Powers Solar Expert Posts: 36
    Re: NorthWind Power info

    Please see some of the data you have requested.
    Video, photos, installs and test site photos is forthcoming.



    -Power Curve MPPT data

    -Actual MPPT power curve programmed in the 3.6 KW inverter

    -This is a chart pulled from the inverter. The chart shows power output hitting
    3 KW to 3.5 KW

    Click on this link and go to bottom left of page. Select any of the spec links.
    http://northwindturbines.com/wind_turbine_specs.php


    Thanks,

    Chuck
    NorthWind Power Inc.
    www.northwindturbines.com
  • mike95490
    mike95490 Solar Expert Posts: 9,583 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: NorthWind Power info
    Powers wrote: »

    This is a chart pulled from the inverter. The chart shows power output hitting
    3 KW to 3.5 KW

    http://www.northwindturbines.com/files/i3Power_lifetime_power_output.doc

    So, I think I need this explained to me. I looked at your chart, and saw much 0 watts, and only occasional spikes of power.
    I studied the borders, and at the top, found this (attached snippet).

    I read it as 114 days, 855Wh.
    is that correct ?
    Powerfab top of pole PV mount | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
    || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
    || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

    solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
    gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister ,

  • Powers
    Powers Solar Expert Posts: 36
    Re: NorthWind Power info

    The turbine was offline most of the time and not flying. The turbine was gin poled up on demand. It was tested mostly when wind was 10-30MPH. I will send a lifetime chart from another inverter that is online 24/7.
  • Solar Guppy
    Solar Guppy Solar Expert Posts: 1,989 ✭✭✭
    Re: NorthWind Power info

    If I may suggest you should link your data as either .html or .pdf.

    Its widely considered a security risk to open files that are .doc as in windows systems they can contain macros which can expose a users computer to Trojans, viruses or worse
  • myocardia
    myocardia Solar Expert Posts: 118 ✭✭✭
    Re: NorthWind Power info

    Hey guys, at least he's being more or less honest with us. It seems like they're only in it for the money, just like everyone else in the small wind "industry", along with everyone in solar, etc, etc, et al. They're hardly the only ones. The mail drop doesn't exactly warm my heart, though. I personally wouldn't give a large sum of money to a company that refused to disclose their address.
    russ wrote:
    Not to worry with this turbine I think! Whether it runs or not is less than a 150$ per year deal.

    With more or less typical wind speeds of 11 mph they claim an output of 305 watts so - 305 watts * 8760 and a very generous capacity factor of 35% / 1000 = <1000 kWh per year. Maybe 100$ worth of power with 10 cent power.

    Even at a 14 mph the output is maybe 1650 kWh in a year -

    So besides a turbine that makes <150$ worth of power per year you have a mailing address for a warranty.

    Heck of a deal. But they get into Uncle Sam's pocket for incentives/subsidies - at least the supplier will be happy.

    The output is the same as any other turbine - forget the rather silly claims of extra output.

    Both wind & solar cost more than buying power from the grid. That isn't at all a new thing. It's not as if you were going to be able to buy some other company's turbine, and finally have enough money to retire.;)
    DoD= depth of discharge= amount removed from that battery   SoC= state of charge= amount remaining in that battery
    So, 0% DoD= 100% SoC, 25% DoD= 75% SoC, 50% DoD= 50% SoC, 75% DoD= 25% SoC, 100% DoD= 0% SoC
    A/C= air conditioning AC= alternating current (what comes from the outlets in your home) DC= direct current (what batteries & solar panels use)
  • niel
    niel Solar Expert Posts: 10,300 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: NorthWind Power info
    myocardia wrote: »
    Hey guys, at least he's being more or less honest with us. It seems like they're only in it for the money, just like everyone else in the small wind "industry", along with everyone in solar, etc, etc, et al. They're hardly the only ones. The mail drop doesn't exactly warm my heart, though. I personally wouldn't give a large sum of money to a company that refused to disclose their address.



    Both wind & solar cost more than buying power from the grid. That isn't at all a new thing. It's not as if you were going to be able to buy some other company's turbine, and finally have enough money to retire.;)

    really!!! you think you can lump the entire solar industry in with the wind scams?
  • myocardia
    myocardia Solar Expert Posts: 118 ✭✭✭
    Re: NorthWind Power info
    niel wrote: »
    really!!! you think you can lump the entire solar industry in with the wind scams?

    It wasn't obvious that that entire sentence was a tiny bit of an exaggeration? Besides, I happen to know of one company who used to be in the solar industry that I'm pretty sure was just faking it!!:D
    DoD= depth of discharge= amount removed from that battery   SoC= state of charge= amount remaining in that battery
    So, 0% DoD= 100% SoC, 25% DoD= 75% SoC, 50% DoD= 50% SoC, 75% DoD= 25% SoC, 100% DoD= 0% SoC
    A/C= air conditioning AC= alternating current (what comes from the outlets in your home) DC= direct current (what batteries & solar panels use)
  • Truth Squad
    Truth Squad Solar Expert Posts: 126 ✭✭
    Re: NorthWind Power info

    Gotta tell ya. With solar, there ain't a lot of "wiggle room". It either works or it doesn't and it becomes very obvious right away. With small wind, there's every excuse in the book why it's only putting out .0025 kwh in two days of wind enough to flag trees horizontal. Here's some of the most common:

    1.) Not enough wind.

    2.) Too much wind.

    3.) Not sited right (even if it is.)

    4.) You didn't use thick enough gage wire (despite the fact the manufacturer authorized dealer installed it.)

    5.) Oh, well, don't worry, the grant will pay for most of it anyway.

    6.) Oh, well, don't worry, the tax credit will pay for most of it anyway.

    7.) Oh, your area doesn't have enough wind and you should have checked your wind maps, see. (Despite the fact the company authorized dealer came by and said the region was great for wind.)

    8.) Oh, you need the software upgrade. Oh, you got it....Well, you need the NEW software upgrade!

    9.) Oh, you need a taller tower. (Despite the fact the manufacturer authorized dealer said that tower was fine.)

    10.) Oh, you don't understand the difference between power and energy!


    Shall I go on? :p
  • Powers
    Powers Solar Expert Posts: 36
    Re: NorthWind Power info
    If I may suggest you should link your data as either .html or .pdf.

    Its widely considered a security risk to open files that are .doc as in windows systems they can contain macros which can expose a users computer to Trojans, viruses or worse


    Per your request, I changed the link option on that post.
    Thank you!
  • Powers
    Powers Solar Expert Posts: 36
    Re: NorthWind Power info

    Here is some of the items that we have decided on. Some of this was based on this forums opinions and thought.

    -Dealers will have to purchase our towers as part of a complete package. Minimum tower size of 45'. A tower of 65' + is recommended. (smaller towers will require proof of potential site performance).
    -We may have dealers sign an affidavit confirming that they understand the real world payback of the 3KW system. We believe at this point it is 12-20 years on a 3KW system. Deceptive dealers can then be held accountable.
    -Signed letter from a customer with a compromised site. The letter would indicate that the they know about how poor the performance may be. In certain situations people will insist on a system even with the compromised location.
    -Sites less than 1 acre are forbidden for use of our system. Local zoning in many areas are approving HWT on half acre lots. If I had my way, it would be minimum 2 acres.

    There is a large enough market for turbines on larger properties. Many people have money and don’t care about the ROI. It’s no different than the person that buys a Chevy Volt for 55K. People will buy turbines for other reasons other than just the ROI.


    Thank you,


    Charles Spoto

    NorthWind Power Inc can be reached by phone, fax, and e-mail.

    Address 4702 State Route 176, Unit F
    Crystal Lake, Illinois 60014
    E-mail sts@mc.net
    www.northwindturbines.com
    Toll-Free Number (800) 838-1472
    Fax Number (815) 568-8478
    24-Hour Cell / Int Charles Spoto (815) 482-0224
  • Truth Squad
    Truth Squad Solar Expert Posts: 126 ✭✭
    Re: NorthWind Power info

    I gotta tell ya, Charles. Those are very wise moves. You're on the right track.
  • russ
    russ Solar Expert Posts: 593 ✭✭
    Re: NorthWind Power info

    Good luck Charles - an honest approach it sounds like.

    I think that if you manage to sell more than a handful you will be very lucky.

    I, for one, have zero interest in wind turbine with no payback or a Chevy Volt either.

    When wind turbines or PV panels provide me with a decent investment then I will go for it. When an electric car is a better deal than my diesel I will buy it.

    That is without incentives considered as here we have none of that stuff.

    For commercial turbines they always use a capacity factor of between 10 & 35% to allow for all that does happen. That tends to drop the output calculations just a bit! Instead of 100 kWh it goes to between 10 & 35.
  • peterako
    peterako Solar Expert Posts: 144 ✭✭
    Re: NorthWind Power info

    Yes good to read about the control but there is still the technical part and live tests outstanding. if these are answered correctly i can tell you only here in Greece there are a lot off customers waiting to replace failing products , but you really need to answer technical and not only management.

    Greetings from Greece
  • russ
    russ Solar Expert Posts: 593 ✭✭
    Re: NorthWind Power info

    3rd party testing by someone like NREL means something. Right now your power cueves may be very real but again they may just be the product of someone's imagination - we don't know.

    3rd party tests by NREL also show equipment and system defects. Look at Mariah - theur VAWT was a disaster in the tests with welds and electronics failing.

    3rd party tests by Joe's Garage, Wind Turbines & Bait Store don't get it either.
  • Powers
    Powers Solar Expert Posts: 36
    Re: NorthWind Power info

    We will have photos, video and more test data coming very soon.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v8rvInyb_88


    ;)
  • Powers
    Powers Solar Expert Posts: 36
    Re: NorthWind Power info

    Please see the following videos. I will send many more stills and video of our test sites and installs.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DfLFPaHnweA

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gComlfT5CTE


    Thanks, Chuck
    www.northwindturbines.com

    [moved to Product Review forum per request of Chuck--Bill B. Moderator]
  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,433 admin
    Re: NorthWind Power info

    Move to product review forum.

    -Bill (moderator) B.
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • vcallaway
    vcallaway Solar Expert Posts: 157 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: NorthWind Power info

    On the home makeover video I noticed no guy wires.

    How much wind can that tower take before coming down?