Problem with generator and PSX-240

Hello,

I Bought a PSX-240 transformer with fan to get the full power from my SXB5500HXS Kodiak generator (4500 Watts nominal, 37,5/18,8A) which was limited to 30A
on 120V.

I wired the Outback PSX in a step down configuration to power a single inverter (VFX3648/FW500), when I check through the Mate there is 2000 Watts used by the charger and 600W or 700W for the loads. That’s Ok.
But when I add new load like well pump, my PSX-240 could not give me more than 20A and the FX draws its current from the charger which falls to 1000 Watts. It’s just like if I have a 2400W generator.
I saw the breakers are rated at 25A (they never trip) but I don’t think that’s the reason of my problem. I check and recheck wiring and generator, all is fine.
I need absolutely these 4500 Watts in order to charge my batteries and power some loads at the same time.
Am I trying to do something impossible?
Could you help me?
Any help would be very appreciated.
Thanks in advance
Erik

Comments

  • CariboocootCariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭
    Re: Problem with generator and PSX-240

    I've read this three times and it doesn't make sense. So we need to get some terminology straightened out.

    First off, inverters are 'powered' by batteries, not by generators.
    So what you're looking at is the the generator input to run the built-in charger while at the same time handling 'passed-through' loads. Right?

    I don't think you're expressing your gen's output capacity properly either. I suspect you mean it's 4500 Watts all right, but the "30A" outlet is 240 VAC. You've purchased the transformer with an eye to taking that outlet and reducing the Voltage to give you 120 VAC @ 30 Amps. Right so far?

    Then you say your FX is using 2000 Watts for the charger. That would be a DC output of roughly 40 Amps on a 48 Volt system. So a battery bank no bigger than 800 Amp/hrs. Correct?

    So the 120 VAC output from the generator is limited to 2400 Watts per pole. Minus 2000 Watts for the charger leaves 400 Watts for running loads. Yes, that's not so good if the loads you want to run are 600-700 Watts.

    So the PSX-240 should be wired to take 240 VAC in and provide 120 VAC out. I'd tell you how to do this, but I want to be accurate so I thought I'd look up the manual and see if it is even possible. Outback's website won't load the manuals today (at least for me). So maybe someone else has one on hand or can view the site?
  • RCinFLARCinFLA Solar Expert Posts: 1,280 ✭✭✭
    Re: Problem with generator and PSX-240

    For hybrid syncronous GT inverters like Outback FX and Xantrex SW & XW Husky is correct on his assumptions. There is no separate charger. Inverter is bi-directional and can act as charger or load supplying inverter.

    The PSX-240 transformer is a 2kW transformer connected as auto-transformer that allows 4 kW step down. This may have nothing to do with your issue but understanding this may help in debugging issue. I don't believe it is intended for continous operation at 6 kW as auto-transformer wiring, even with fan.

    I have two 2 kW isolation transformers I bought about 8 years ago from Allied. I think they are Triad manf. They weigh over 50 lbs each. I used one of them wired as auto-transformer off a 4 kW gen to feed a single SW4048 some time ago.

    Focus on checking transformer wiring. If you can round up four hair dryers you can use them as loads for the transformer output testing. A clip-on ampmeter will help making the measurements. If you have to buy one, get one with D.C. capability as it will be useful in future use for battery current checks. Older generators without electronic field regulators drop in voltage significantly as they are heavily loaded. You might only end up with 105v at full load which may explain not getting full output power expected.

    May not want to hear this but many gens, even ones without 120/240 switch, have two 120 v windings that can be rewired at plug plate to give full power output at 120v. This is the case if two wires coming from stator windings are connected to neutral.
  • mike95490mike95490 Solar Expert Posts: 8,563 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: Problem with generator and PSX-240

    You may be reaching some "Power Factor" limit in the system. (well pump? battery charger?)

    What if you charge batteries for a while and they begin to taper off, then can you use the pump?
    Powerfab top of pole PV mount | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
    || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
    || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

    solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
    gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister ,

  • peterakopeterako Solar Expert Posts: 144 ✭✭
    Re: Problem with generator and PSX-240

    Hi there, i have a similar generator honda with a European gen head.
    Lets clear the generator part as well.

    first 5500 is the axe power from the honda motor, the 4500 is the maximum from the generator. these maximums are there only under a perfect situation fuel maintenance temperature etc.

    When you load more then 60 % the gen set is not freq. and voltage stable and needs more time to adjust. plus the losses that you have on cables and connectors.
    your PSX 240 is also producing heat ( that's why the ventilators ).

    so yes your setup is throttling back to a stable freq. voltage and you never have your full power.

    Plus well pumps are like compressors ferry nasty loads to start up and run from a small gen setup.

    my honda generator is on this moment my backup generator and my main is a diesel 8 KVA 1200 rpm silence specially after the honda generator that wash screaming to provide maximum 3 KVA ( yes it is a factory 5.5KVA )

    Greetings from Greece8)
  • crewzercrewzer Registered Users, Solar Expert Posts: 1,832 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Problem with generator and PSX-240

    Erik,

    The inverter’s default AC current input limit when operating in AC Transfer Control = GEN mode is 30 Amps AC (30 AAC), or 3,600 VA. Based on the info provided, the power factor adjusted loads may be close to that. For example, 2,700 W with a power factor of 0.75 is 3,600 VA.

    You may need to use a Mate to increase the VFX3648 inverter’s AC2/Gen input limit from the default 30 AAC to 45 AAC or 50 AAC. The upper limit is 60 AAC, IIRC.

    Note that your generator’s “power rating” will have the same issues with VA, Watts, and power factor. Additionally, you may need to derate based on peak power vs. continuous power, as well as for altitude. At sea level, its "4,500 W" nominal rating is really 4,500 VA.

    You may also want to double check the wiring for the X-240. A configuration diagram is attached below.

    HTH,
    Jim / crewzer
  • HuskyHusky Registered Users Posts: 8
    Re: Problem with generator and PSX-240

    Hello guys
    Thank you very much for your help
    I'm trying to be more accurate.
    My system is 48V PV/48V Batt.
    FW500 with one VFX3648 plus MX60 plus Mate with X-240 in a step up config inside to run a Grundfoss 10SQ05-110 deep well pump 3,6AH/240V (500W only on the mate) and another PSX-240 outside to step down a 240 generator to run a 5500 Kodiak generator 4500W nominal with one 30A 120V twistlock outlet and one 18,8/37,6A 120/240V twistlock outlet.
    The 30A/120V was not enough for me (3600W) so the only solution was to use the 37,6A/240 outlet and add a PSX-240 step down in order to have the full output of the generator. The gen is in a shed situated 300 feet away from the lodge. The wire size is 2AWG aluminium between shed and lodge
    Battery Bank is 830AH/48V
    PV: 6 x Solarworld 175W plus whisper 200/48V

    Jim
    My AC2/Gen input limit is 48A (factory settings), the genset max output is 37,6A if I could have it one day... Do you think it could be better to increase the AC2/Gen input limit to 60A ?
    Your configuration diagram is the same as the one I used from Outback.
    The inverter’s default AC current input limit when operating in AC Transfer Control = GEN mode is 30 Amps AC (30 AAC), or 3,600 VA. Based on the info provided, the power factor adjusted loads may be close to that. For example, 2,700 W with a power factor of 0.75 is 3,600 VA.
    Jim, could you tell me more, I would like to be sure I understand.

    RCinFLA
    I don't really need the 6Kw from the PSX-240, 4Kw would be paradisiac!
    2000W for charging, 500W for my well pump, 700W for a septic pump and the rest for TV, light, PC. Fridge and freezer are 24V, wood stove and propane water heater.
    Yes, 4Kw is enough.
    And don't forget that I just run the gen every two or three days for three/four hours.
    Could you explain more on how to rewire these windings, that's what I'm going to do if I could not have a better 240V output. I tested the two 20A outlets with 4000W/4500W of tools and it was Ok. if I could only parallel these two 20A outputs in one 40A output, it could solve my issue.
    Mike
    I'm off grid, so I use the pump every day and my battery bank is never discharged under 50% (just one year old). The problem is only between generator and inverter.
    Peterako
    Do you tell me that your 4500W Honda gen couldn't give you more than 3Kw?
    Thanks
    Erik
  • crewzercrewzer Registered Users, Solar Expert Posts: 1,832 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Problem with generator and PSX-240

    Husky,

    First, confirm the AAC limit for whichever "input" you're using, AC1/Grid or AC2/Gen. Alternately, set 'em both for 60 AAC, and then it won't matter which one you've selected. ;)

    Here's a Google search string link to plenty of info on power factor, or "real power" vs. "apparent power". Inductive loads (i.e., motors) can be pretty bad. Your VFX' built-in charger should be ~0.9 or better for most settings.

    See: http://www.google.com/#hl=en&source=hp&q=power+factor+calculation&aq=1&aqi=g10&oq=power+fa&fp=c807e9ccc08a197a
    2000W for charging
    The VFX3648’s max battery charge current during bulk stage is 85 ADC, and that’s at less than absorb target voltage. So, you can probably get 85 ADC at, say, 24 Vout, but not at, say, 28 Vout. Also, when the charger switches from Bulk mode to Absorb- or Float modes – which are current limited by definition – the power draw from the AC source will drop.

    So, a couple of things to consider:
    1) Increase the charger’s AAC setting from its default (18 AAC) to its maximum (20 AAC)

    2) Defer some downstream AC loads until a little while after the charger switches from Bulk mode to Absorb mode; more current will be available for downstream loads without having to “throttle back” the AC source current going to the charger.
    HTH,
    Jim / crewzer
  • HuskyHusky Registered Users Posts: 8
    Re: Problem with generator and PSX-240

    Hi Cariboocoot
    You are right, my 5500 Kodiak generator is really 4500Watts nominal, with one 120V/30A twistlock outlet + one 120/240V 18.8/37.6A twistlock outlet. 120V/30A=3600 Watts wasn't enough. That's why I add a PSX-240 to step down the 37.6A/240V in order to have the full 4500 Watts from the gen to the VFX3648 inverter.
    The VFX3648 Continuous Battery Charge Output is 45ADC=2160Watts and I need 2000Watts more to power different loads, so I need 2160W + 2000W= 4160W total.
    Hope this help
    Erik
  • HuskyHusky Registered Users Posts: 8
    Re: Problem with generator and PSX-240

    Jim
    The VFX3648’s max battery charge current during bulk stage is 85 ADC
    I'm not sure but I think the VFX3648’s max battery charge is 45 ADC.
    I'm going to set the AAC input for grid and gen to 60AAC as you say...
    Thanks for advices
    Erik
  • blackswan555blackswan555 Solar Expert Posts: 246 ✭✭
    Re: Problem with generator and PSX-240

    Not sure if I am understanding this right ?
    The 30A/120V was not enough for me (3600W) so the only solution was to use the 37,6A/240 outlet

    The 240 outlet gives 18.8 amp`s , the sum of the two 120v`s is 37.6A, ?
    (240 x 18.8 = 4512, 37.6 x 120 = 4512)

    Have a good one
    Tim
  • RCinFLARCinFLA Solar Expert Posts: 1,280 ✭✭✭
    Re: Problem with generator and PSX-240

    Do check the max AC input setting on Outback first. It will only load the gen to limit set. Any AC output load on Outback beyond this limit is supplied by battery.

    On the generator, you need to verify that four wires are brought off of the stator winding (case winding), two of which would be tied together going to neutral side (wide blade prong of 120v outlets). There might be more then four wires off stator for things like 12v charging or tach control but the four I am talking about would be large gauge for the gen primary AC outputs going to the AC sockets.

    To make 120v only, at full gen power capability, need to split the two neutral wires apart. Ohm out each of the two separated neutral wires to each of the two 240 v hot lines ends to find out which one is the other end of the coil. Usually each of the hot lines go to different 120vac sockets so the two sides are distributed across different ends of two coils, besides the 240 v outlets.

    The neutral coil winding of the opposite coil goes the hot line of other coil. Little hard to put in words but think of it like two secondary windings of transformer, presently connected in series that you now want to connect in parallel. You are separating the two ends going to the center tap of 240 v output.

    If the two neutral lines are connected within the windings and only one neutral wire is brought out you can not do the separation.
  • peterakopeterako Solar Expert Posts: 144 ✭✭
    Re: Problem with generator and PSX-240

    Hi husky,
    My Honda generator has worked on its near maximum, but that wash when the charger wash not working. Above 60% use for this type of one cylinder motor it is difficult to keep a stable voltage frequency and you will see your controller responding on any load change .

    Read more about power factor, the stated 4500VA is ohmic only not inductive to run inductive you will see around 3 Kva.

    In your calculation from 4160 W these are outputs you forget the losses in the transformer and charger. your calculation from 45 A DC = 2160 W is wrong you are not charging 48V but around 56 V , that makes 45A * 56 V = 2520W charger output plus the 2000W is 4520W. your losses in the transformer and charger is around +/-400W ( 85% ) that brings to 4920 W.
    And even your charger is a electronic inductive load, its fast switching inductors on and off.

    And all that is only when your honda motor can run at maximum ( perfect fresh blend fuel, fresh oil, new air filter, new spark plug, etc.)

    sorry but your calculations are based on manufacture information that must be adapted to a real world. It is like your whisper 200 the time that it is making 1000W you can not walk outside anymore. in a real world you have by good wind 600 to 800 Watt.

    My advice look for a bigger generator + 8 KVA diesel slow speed 1500rpms.
    Even if you do load sharing you are at the maximum from your generator, its life will be very short, As soon as that there is a good wearing from the cylinder wall/ rings your setup will not be stable anymore.

    p.s. i have a similar setup 48 V 1000AH battery, whisper 200, solar panels, Two generators diesel 8Kva and a honda 4.5 KVA.

    greetings from Greece8)
  • crewzercrewzer Registered Users, Solar Expert Posts: 1,832 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Problem with generator and PSX-240
    Quote:
    The VFX3648’s max battery charge current during bulk stage is 85 ADC
    I'm not sure but I think the VFX3648’s max battery charge is 45 ADC.
    I'm going to set the AAC input for grid and gen to 60AAC as you say...
    Husky,

    Yeah, you’re right… my apologies. :blush: I looked up the specs for VFX3524 instead of the 3648. The 3648’s charger AAC settings are still 18 default and 20 max.
    Fridge and freezer are 24V, wood stove and propane water heater.
    So, how are you doing this with a 48 V system?
    18,8/37,6A 120/240V twistlock outlet.
    Assuming 85% efficiency in the step-down xfmr, using the X-240 to invert one leg of the generator’s 240 outlet, and then combine that with the generator’s other hot leg, should provide you with up to (85% x 18.8 A) + 18.8 A = ~34.8 A x 120 VAC = ~4176 VA.
    Any AC output load on Outback beyond this limit is supplied by battery
    It’s my understanding that this feature (“Gen Support”) was never activated.

    HTH,
    Jim / crewzer
  • HuskyHusky Registered Users Posts: 8
    Re: Problem with generator and PSX-240

    Hi
    Jim
    Fridge and freezer are 24V, wood stove and propane water heater.
    I have a little 10A solar converter 48/24V, it works fine for these two 12/24V loads.
    Assuming 85% efficiency in the step-down xfmr, using the X-240 to invert one leg of the generator’s 240 outlet, and then combine that with the generator’s other hot leg, should provide you with up to (85% x 18.8 A) + 18.8 A = ~34.8 A x 120 VAC = ~4176 VA.
    I Think you are right in your calculation about the PSX-240, it could work for me but with a bigger generator as Peterako said.
    It’s my understanding that this feature (“Gen Support”) was never activated.
    Where do you activate the Gen Support?
    Through the Mate?
    Peterako
    In your calculation from 4160 W these are outputs you forget the losses in the transformer and charger. your calculation from 45 A DC = 2160 W is wrong you are not charging 48V but around 56 V , that makes 45A * 56 V = 2520W charger output plus the 2000W is 4520W. your losses in the transformer and charger is around +/-400W ( 85% ) that brings to 4920 W.
    Excuse me, you are right Peterako. 2000W is only the reading through the Mate when charging at 45ADC (real world).
    It is like your whisper 200 the time that it is making 1000W you can not walk outside anymore. in a real world you have by good wind 600 to 800 Watt.
    You're right and even worst, my Whisper 200 output over one year is just 100KW at 65 feet high, that's the output of my PV in 20/30 days :)
    What's the brand of your 8Kw diesel generator?
    RCinFLA
    Thanks a lot for yor advices on how to rewire a generator, i'm going to check it as soon as i can.
    BlackSwan
    Hi Tim
    The 240 outlet gives 18.8 amp`s, the sum of the two 120v`s is 37.6A, ?
    (240 x 18.8 = 4512, 37.6 x 120 = 4512)
    Of course you're right, the 30A/120V is another twistlock outlet (with 3 prongs)
    But I need more than 3600W. The 120/240V twistlock outlet (4 prongs) is 18,8A on each side and in theory I should have 37.6A (34/35A 4000W as Jim said) on the 120V out of the PSX in a step down config of the PSX-240. I agree with Peterako that it could better with a bigger generator but in my opinion, there's no reason I couldn't have these 4Kw.
    Am I right or is there something that I don't understand with this kind of transformer?
    Once again thanks for your help
    Erik
  • blackswan555blackswan555 Solar Expert Posts: 246 ✭✭
    Re: Problem with generator and PSX-240
    Husky wrote: »
    Jim

    I'm not sure but I think the VFX3648’s max battery charge is 45 ADC.
    I'm going to set the AAC input for grid and gen to 60AAC as you say...
    Thanks for advices
    Erik

    you do realize there are two places that you must do this ?
    ADV > FX > GEN > Input limit & SETUP > FX > AC 2 Gen limit

    Tim
  • crewzercrewzer Registered Users, Solar Expert Posts: 1,832 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Problem with generator and PSX-240
    your calculation from 45 A DC = 2160 W is wrong you are not charging 48V but around 56 V , that makes 45A * 56 V = 2520W charger output
    Unfortunately, that’s not correct. The charger may be able to supply 45 ADC at a relatively low bulk voltage of, say, 48 V, but it can’t supply the full 45 ADC at high bulk stage voltages like 56 V. I suspect that ~2,200 VA is the limit.

    A bit of math bears this out. 45 ADC x 48 V = 2,160 VA. And, assuming 90% charger efficiency, 20 AAC max input current x 120 VAC x 90% = 2,160 VA.
    Where do you activate the Gen Support?
    Through the Mate?
    The Gen Support feature is one that Outback has long considered adding this feature to its FX inverter/chargers, and there’s a place holder in the user setup menu. However, I don’t believe that OutBack has ever released new firmware to activate this feature.
    you do realize there are two places that you must do this ?
    ADV > FX > GEN > Input limit & SETUP > FX > AC 2 Gen limit
    You might want to double check that, Tim. IIRC, there are two places to make the adjustment. You can set either, and the other “follows”. There’s no need to separately set both.

    HTH,
    Jim / crewzer
  • Dave AngeliniDave Angelini Solar Expert Posts: 4,953 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: Problem with generator and PSX-240
    crewzer wrote:

    The Gen Support feature is one that Outback has long considered adding this feature to its FX inverter/chargers, and there’s a place holder in the user setup menu. However, I don’t believe that OutBack has ever released new firmware to activate this feature.


    Probably because it would take more than firmware and a trip back to Washington to do what Trace and Xantrex have always had in their inverter/chargers.
    "we go where power lines don't" Sierra Mountains near Mariposa/Yosemite CA
     http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
    E-mail [email protected]

  • HuskyHusky Registered Users Posts: 8
    Re: Problem with generator and PSX-240

    Hi,
    Is there a way to stack two VFX3648, one which feed the main panel with its charger off and no AC in (just inverting) and the other one which charge my battery bank with AC in from the gen. This way it could solve my issue without buying a new expensive diesel generator that will cost 7000/8000$. And this way my little Gen could do the job.
    Thanks for all,
    Erik
  • Solar GuppySolar Guppy Solar Expert Posts: 1,962 ✭✭✭
    Re: Problem with generator and PSX-240

    A possible solution is to have a inverter/charger that doesn't have these limits

    Its about $2900 for the Xantrex XW-6048, its split phase built in so you can direct feed the generator into it, will more than double your available output and its more efficient to boot.

    Sell the OB unit on eBay and your looking at similar costs to upgrade to the XW than buying a second OB unit
  • CariboocootCariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭
    Re: Problem with generator and PSX-240

    Solar Guppy's idea is probably best.
    But if you could disconnect the loads from the Outback's output and use one side of the gen to feed the OB on charging and the other side to run the loads ... well that's the most power you could get. Could be done with a bit of re-wiring and a gen disconnect switch. Er, auto-transfer switch.
  • crewzercrewzer Registered Users, Solar Expert Posts: 1,832 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Problem with generator and PSX-240
    Is there a way to stack two VFX3648, one which feed the main panel with its charger off and no AC in (just inverting) and the other one which charge my battery bank with AC in from the gen.
    Husky,

    Is this what you’re suggesting:

    Gen -> (240 VAC) -> X-240 #1 -> (120 VAC) -> VFX3648 #1 -> (48 VDC) -> battery bank -> (48 VDC) -> VFX3648 #2 -> (120 VAC) -> X-240 #2 -> (120/240 VAC) -> power panel

    This would work, but the cumulative inefficiencies would be horrible.

    If you want to stay with OutBack, check the attached drawing for an “OutBack Stack” 120/240 solution. This approach would eliminate one X-240 and still keep the generator hot legs balanced.

    If you can make the numbers work for you, then the Xantrex solution might indeed be best for your particular application.

    HTH,
    Jim / crewzer
  • HuskyHusky Registered Users Posts: 8
    Re: Problem with generator and PSX-240

    Hi Jim
    Yes, it could be that, or a little bit different
    Gen -> (240 VAC) -> X-240 #1 -> (120 VAC) -> VFX3648 #1 -> (48 VDC) -> battery bank -> (48 VDC) -> VFX3648 #2 -> (120 VAC) -> X-240 #2 -> (120/240 VAC) -> power panel
    I could delete the X-240 #1 and feed the VFX3648 #1 on the 120V/30A twistlock socket (the VFX3648 #1 could be start just when i need it to charge for saving the 6Watts x 24H energy) if you think it's more efficient. The VFX3648 #2 would be on search mode.
    The X-240 #2 is Outback wired (it not feed the main panel which is 120V/one leg)
    It is between the main panel and the well pump, this way it works just when the pressure switch is On.
    Jim, could you tell me what you mean by "cumulative inefficiencies" and what could be done to improve the system as much as possible. I'm afraid that it's the only solution I have to keep my gen alive :)
    The main issue I have now is that I could not feed charger, septic pump, well pump at the same time. I own a lodge and two little cabins that I rent for fishing hunting, so it's impossible to control how much showers and when.
    Another advantage is to have a spare inverter in case of failure of one (it happens this summer... Four weeks on gen only before I could change the circuit board of the VFX3648.
    Thanks a lot Jim for your help.
    Erik
    SolarMusher
    13 years in the wild with my 60 dogs
    www.crocblancaventure.com
  • HuskyHusky Registered Users Posts: 8
    Re: Problem with generator and PSX-240

    SolarGuppy
    its split phase built in so you can direct feed the generator into it
    I'm not sure to understand what you want to say, could you tell me more on how the Xantrex XW-6048 could solve my problem of my undersized Kodiak 5500 (4500Watts nominal but only 3000 realWatts to power 4000 realWatts of loads and charger).
    Thanks for your help
    Erik
  • Solar GuppySolar Guppy Solar Expert Posts: 1,962 ✭✭✭
    Re: Problem with generator and PSX-240

    You feed the 240V from the genny into the XW-6048 direct, no X-240 transformer ( and losses ~10% or so )

    Also the XW-6048 has a built in 100 amp charger , so what ever the genny can put out the XW can turn into charging the bank, the Outback is limiting you now as its something like a 2K internal charger according to another poster.

    The XW and its capability's are a completely different class than the OB, its more features, much better efficiency, about 3X more real power available to the load than your current OB unit. Many on this board have and use the XW ( I have had both ). If your going to up grade, the best path is to start with the XW-6048 and see what you get out of your current genny with the XW.
  • crewzercrewzer Registered Users, Solar Expert Posts: 1,832 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Problem with generator and PSX-240

    Husky,

    OK.. time to clear up a few things and try to get this discussion back on track.

    I used to work for OutBack. I’m no longer affiliated with the company, and my effort here is focused on using my experience in trying to assist you with what you’ve got. Accordingly, my effort should not be interpreted by you nor anyone else as an advocacy for OutBack products.
    Jim, could you tell me what you mean by "cumulative inefficiencies" and what could be done to improve the system as much as possible. I'm afraid that it's the only solution I have to keep my gen alive :)
    The “text” model I laid out earlier would include a series of successive inefficiencies in X-240 #1, in VFX 3648 #1’s charger, in VFX3648 #2’s inverter, and in X-240 #2. The cumulative power losses in this configuration would probably be ~40%. :cry:

    In terms of improving your existing system, I think you have two options:

    One: Figure out why the VFX is only seeing 20 AAC x 120 V from the generator and X-240. It concerns me that the system seems to delivering but 1/2 of what you'd expect... it's like one phase is completely missing... not connected, bad circuit breaker...???

    Another possibility is that the Kodiak 4500/5500 generator is not configured to deliver 240 V x 18.75 A from the four-prong 120/240 V twist-lock receptacle. See the attached diagram from Kodiak. The generator may be capable of delivering 4,500 W total, but not from a single receptacle. This is a nasty bit of specmanship I’ve seen before.

    For example, you may be able to connect one load to 120 VAC x 8.75 A to, say, receptacle "A", another load of 120 VAC x 8.75 A to receptacle "B", and a third load of 240 VAC x 10 A to receptacle "C", for a combined load total of 4,500 VA.

    But, there does not appear to be any single location to connect a single 4,500 VA load.

    You might want to review your generator’s user manual carefully and see if there’s any discussion about this issue. For example, I’ve attached a copy of discussion of this issue from a Honda 5 KW generator manual. Ultimately, you may need to fashion a “special” adapter that pulls current from the Kodiak's hot leg #1 via one of the GFCI duplex outlets and additional current from hot leg #2 via the other GFCI duplex outlet.

    Ca you post a link to the generator’s user manual and wiring diagram? If not, can you scan and post a copy of the wiring diagram to the forum? Also, can you tell us what the "What's this?" items are on your generator (see picture below)?

    Two: Assuming success with item #1 above, adding a second VFX3648 to your system per the "OutBack stack" configuration above would help with charging the batteries (up to 90 ADC total available), meeting downstream AC loads (up to 7,200 VA combined rated, and up to 8,000 VA for 30 minutes starting at 25 C), and providing some redundancy.

    However, I still think it’s important to really understand how the generator and its 120/240 switching (if equipped), circuit breakers, receptacles actually operate. :confused: If current is limited at the receptacles, then we have something other than the “Brand O” vs. “Brand X” discussion to worry about. ;)

    HTH,
    Jim / crewzer
  • peterakopeterako Solar Expert Posts: 144 ✭✭
    Re: Problem with generator and PSX-240

    Crewzer sorry but i think you are missing the point, that the generator is to small for inductive loads.
    Special after reading that there are two rented areas inc. you can expect uncontrolled power use pumps , energy saving lights and the charger are inductive lights and this small gen set can not hold all of them my 60 % rule.
    The solution is to update the inverter wash maybe broken based on overloading. Yes as well by a inverter it is safe to look for double power, to keep things cool and to really provide start up power for a pump etc.

    Husky.
    i am using a Italy Brant Lambordini ( not the sport car ) it is used here in Greece a lot as a motor for small tractors and backup generators.
    But for you any diesel slow speed diesel will have a nice big generator on it so the fly wheel mass will give a perfect power supply.

    Greetings from Greece8)
  • crewzercrewzer Registered Users, Solar Expert Posts: 1,832 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Problem with generator and PSX-240

    Peterako,

    Greetings to you in Greece! I lived there from 1967-69, and graduated high school in Thessaloniki. :cool:

    I understand that the inductive loads may present a challenge for Husky’s system. I addressed this issue briefly in a earlier post:

    http://forum.solar-electric.com/showpost.php?p=41081&postcount=8

    Husky described his loads in another previous post. We don’t know about the septic pump, but the Grundfos is a ½ HP pump that the VFX3648 can start with ease, assuming a healthy and appropriately sized battery bank. I suspect the 4500/5500 generator can run this pump as well, based on the apparent well pump specs and Grundfos’ recommendations (see attached drawing).

    http://forum.solar-electric.com/showpost.php?p=41078&postcount=7
    http://www.wwpp.com/products/grundfos/sqdata/10sq05110115v.pdf

    The Grundfos 10SQ05-110 designation also suggests this pump is a 110 VAC x 12 A (running) model. If so, it doesn’t need an X-240 between it and the VFX3648.
    ...with X-240 in a step up config inside to run a Grundfoss 10SQ05-110 deep well pump 3,6AH/240V
    Husky: I recommend you double-check your pumps' specs.

    Another option to consider might be an interlock: If one pump is running, then the other may not.

    As I described above, and as Husky mentioned in an earlier post, connecting to the two 20 A duplex outlets (assuming they’re opposite phases, and running one outlet through the X-240) might well still be an option in trying to maximize available power from the generator.

    HTH,
    Jim / crewzer
  • crewzercrewzer Registered Users, Solar Expert Posts: 1,832 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Problem with generator and PSX-240

    Husky,

    Were you able to sort this out?

    Thx,
    Jim / crewzer
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