Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

Dave Angelini · May 2009

Thought I would start a thread here as it is getting hot up here in the mountains.
The really nice thing about these units is the fan speed, and temp differential set the DC compressor to nice small amounts of power (300 watts) on the 9,000 BTU unit.

For Offgrid you can run the unit continously at low power after the absorption point is hit. As the day goes on you can shift more power to the unit. It would not work well if you wanted to cool a hot room down fast. But for a slow cooldown it is the cats meow. 1700 square foot house is 72 degrees on this little unit at 100F outside. This is done by programing a 2 degree offset from the room temp. This strategy is for places that cool down at night. Offgrid you can run off a solar tracker from dawn to dusk. A fixed array will require using a generator much more. This strategy gets better and easier with more power. I am updating this on July 15 2011 and there have been no problems. I added a second tracker and we now just program the room for 74 and set the fan to auto. Four of my customers are using them and Panasonic has bought Sanyo. You can still buy these where I got them in the next couple posts.

The heat pump function is worth buying also! I do not know if I can post here where purchased the unit but they were as good as it gets also. Update, with the new tracked array I can come home from work at 4PM, turn the unit on and run the heater in spring and fall much easier than before. Our Firewood usage is way down. Sunny days in the deep of winter are easier to run as the heater function does use more energy than the cooling function. Read the rest of the posts if you have time. Drop me a line !

There are other split-type units also.........

BB. · May 2009

Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

Please feel free to post the link to where to purchase...

As in the other thread... I believe this is the unit/family you are referring too.

Sanyo Single Split systems (3,000-9,000 BTU)

We are always happy to hear about good vendors to.

Just don't post it 50 times and/or add it to your sig.

We only get a week or three of hot weather here (SF Peninsula--Bay Side)--Sounds like something we would be interested in to A/C a small section of our home.

-Bill

Solar Guppy · May 2009

Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

They are on eBay by the same supply houses that sell AC and Heat Pumps for the DIY type ... very good SEER ratings

Dave Angelini · May 2009

Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

There are other makes like Toshiba and such and as Solar Guppy says you can buy them on E-bay. I priced the Sanyo's all out and ended up with

http://www.minisplitsystems.com/cgi/display.cgi?item_num=09KHS71

The testimonials from customers on the site was amazing. They backed it up with customer care like Hewlett Packard of decades past. I live in a very remote area and this company included everything you need to install the system. The whole system takes very little time to install but you do need a HVAC person to vacume down the system if you want the warranty. I did this myself on one system and on my customers I gave $75 to an HVAC guy to have a beer with me.

It is ironic that the system converts solar to DC, then DC to AC, then AC to DC, and finally DC to cold or hot air. Conversion and inversion loss might bring the SEER up well past 20. The key here is the variable speed DC motor. You all have heard the sound of the compressor kicking in! This unit just adjusts the motor speed to the fan speed that you set in the house. Nice constant relaxing sound that is just perceptable. Also a plus is that this unit will surge to a 12,000 BTU unit so if you have the power (10 AAC) it can do it. The rest of their line can scale up in BTU with multiple air handlers. A 3 inch hole in the wall is all it takes.

The main point to look for on other makes is the variable speed setpoint at 300 watts. This will allow you to just turn the unit on, leave for the day, and come home to comfort. The next speed is around 600 watts and then 1000 watts. The high power is around 1200 watts. As I said, the unit will stay in the power range you set so you do not have to worry about it using more power than you want. That was the key for my offgrid application!

They are not cheap! When you stand by the outdoor unit and can hear the water drops over the compressor sound it is an amazing slice of technology. I rate this up there in the top 5 best things I have ever bought!

Brock · May 2009

Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

Very cool (pun intended). So the unit stays in which ever mode you set it for? Say it's set in the 300w mode and it gets really hot in the home it wouldn't ramp up to a higher speed? I would think it would have a low, med, high and "auto" setting? How is the power hit when the unit starts? I would think it would be far less than a traditional motor start?

Oh and on the radio this morning I heard mini split heat pumps with a "high" SEER do qualify for part of the Federal Tax thingy, which of course was from a local HVAC and not a tax person...

Dave Angelini · May 2009

Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

Brock, Yep, already did the energy credit with the feds! Very cool! When the unit starts, it ramps up to 300 watts and stays there. If you were in some of the various auto modes it would try and maintain temperature. In the manual AC fan speed mode it just uses steady power. It heats very well also which helps alot in spring and fall. There are absolutely no surge spikes on the line voltage.

JESSICA · May 2009

Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

Dave:

To be honest, it just sound too good to be true. So, is it true? Just 300 watts for a 9k btu a/c?

Can you tell me the time it takes to cool a 10 x 12 room? Lets say to 75 degrees?

You wrotte that "They are not cheap!" Are we talking about $1,500, $1,000, or what? How much did you pay for it.?

BB. · May 2009

Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

From a quick reading the specifications--it appears that 300 watts ~ 3,000 BTU and 900 watts ~ 9,000 BTU (of cooling).

-Bill

Brock · May 2009

Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

Dave what was the Fed rebate? I have heard $500 and $1500 or is it a percentage of the total with some limit?

I don't understand why they don't make regular home AC unit using inverter tech or geothermal pumps using inverter tech. I guess all in good time...

Dave Angelini · May 2009

Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

Bill is correct on the BTU at 300 watts out. I never stated that you could get 9,000 BTU from 300 watts. I wish I could! The reason I moved to a new thread was so the OP would not think this was portable as she requested. Looks like I confused her still.

The credit was $300 and I teetered over the extra money to buy the heat-pump function. DO IT! A perfect load for unused capacity for offgrid and a nice way to get heat to odd places that may need it if you are grid tied. I think it is very efficient in heat mode but I never ran the numbers. The unit also does negative ions and a dehumidify mode but my applications are always dry so no comment.

As I said in my posts a small unit like this is not for cooling hot rooms!!!! The strategy here is to run the unit all day and avoid the room getting hot!!!! I live in an area that cools to 60F at night in summer and is dry.

Brock your comment about the inverter is a little off, I believe it is the variable speed DC compressor that allows the unit to work as well as it does.

There is some more I will add if you folks want but I gotta go now! Stay cool!

Solar Guppy · May 2009

Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

Fed credits for qualified heat Pumps is 30% of install price with a 1500.00 cap on the credit

http://www.energystar.gov/index.cfm?c=products.pr_tax_credits

Brock · May 2009

Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

I totally agree about the unit just doing a base line cooling. Our situation is we have a 4 ton geothermal setup (about 8000w) and I can't run that on peak (9 am to 7 pm) from the inverter since the load is to much and I do have extra power generated on peak (when the sun is shining). So I was initially thinking a window AC unit to use up that extra solar power, but this looks like a better option, more efficient and you can dial up and down the load.

Really this would be overkill for what I am looking for, but at the same time it could be backup since I could run in heat or cooling mode from our inverter if the grid were down.

I know it is basically a DC motor system, but I keep seeing these units referred to as inverter driven, not inverter driven the way "we" normally think of an inverter, but they seem to call them that.

Solar Guppy · May 2009

Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

Your GeoThermal at 4 tons should be in the 2600 watt range ( assuming a SEER of 20+ ) as its 25% better than my unit

My 3 Ton 15 SEER conventional Heat pump pulls ~2600 watts as reported by the XW-6048

BB. · May 2009

Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

In think they are "inverter units" because the motors are brush-less DC motors...

Really more of a synchronous AC motor (aka AC Servo Motor) with permanent magnets (think of a car alternator without the rectifier). If you drive a variable frequency 3 phase AC field into the alternator windings, the alternator will turn into a motor.

They could also use a straight poly-phase induction motor (rotating field "drags" the rotor by inducing its own magnetic field in the rotor)--think standard 3-phase motor.

Either would work, but the permanent magnet motor would be more efficient (no wasted energy inducing the internal magnetic field).

You need an inverter to create a poly phase output of the correct frequency to turn the motor.

The inverter, internally, probably has a AC to DC front end, then outputs the poly phase variable frequency output.

You can click through here for some reference material:

Brushed versus Brushless Permanent magnet (PM) DC brushed and brushless motors incorporate a combination of PM and electromagnetic fields to produce torque (or force) resulting in motion. This is done in the DC motor by a PM stator and a wound armature or rotor. Current in the DC motor is automatically switched to different windings by means of a commutator and brushes to create continuous motion. In a brushless motor, the rotor incorporates the magnets, and the stator contains the windings. In this case, commutation is implemented electronically with a drive amplifier that uses semiconductor switches to change current in the windings based on rotor position feedback

-Bill

PhilS · May 2009

Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

Dave,

I thank you for starting this thread! Last week I was given the "ok" by DW to install A/C (actually it was closer to an ultimatum

) and she wants it NOW. The late rains and early heat have increased the humidity around here, making our evaporative coolers almost worthless. Yes, it'll get drier. But I suspect it's gonna be a HOT summer and one of these mini-splits would a great solution.

I want to cool about 550 sq ft so was looking at 12,000BTU split units. From everything I've researched I REALLY want an inverter unit but hadn't yet made any commitments. Important to me is that I can do the install. I found a cool-only Sanyo at your site with 11,900 BTU which might be the best unit for us (we heat with wood and live in a forest and have central as a backup).

The (non-inverter) unit I was closest to buying is this one:

http://www.ac-world.com/proddetail.php?prod=Ramsond12000&cat=9

I like that it comes pre-charged with refrigerant, no vacuum operations necessary. Since I've worked for years with R12 and R134, I really questioned that it could be 'pre-charged' but emails to the company confirmed it. They said the indoor unit was nitrogen filled, and a slight bleed when everything's connected would be the most that would be needed. Of course, I have gauges for R12 & R134 so I'd have to buy gauges if I installed a unit that wasn't pre-charged. OTOH if I could get someone out for $75, I'd do that.

So Dave... how was the install?

Phil

Solar Guppy · May 2009

Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

All split units come "pre-charged", the freon is stored in the outside unit with the valves capped and king values shutoff, the inside is pressurized with nitrogen, but you still have to braze in the line-set, evacuate, open the lines, do the super-cooling checks and bleed as need be

Be sure to check if they are R22 or R410, the latter needs different gauge sets and is a much higher operating pressure, so be super sure of the brazing work. Technically you have to have an EPA card to do the work yourself. ( 10K fine if caught without the card )

Brock · May 2009

Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

Solar you are correct. Our 4 ton by itself (without pumps and circulation fan) pulls about 4000w, but with the pump out, pump in, pump to furnace coil, circulation pump on the pool on low (350w), the small items in the rest of the home and I am just above 6kw. Our geothermal system is a water to water with the heat dump side being the pool so I have to run the pool circulation pump whenever it is on.

I have a contactor that is fed from the utility meter that disconnects the XW6048 and in turn the sub panel feeding the majority of the home from the grid when we hit on peak rates. I can override that contactor and then set the XW to only pull 2-3 amps from the grid and the XW supplies the rest and that does work, but in the end I would really like something that I can start and run on its own while disconnected from the grid.

We had initially specked a 3 ton unit so I could start and run it from the inverter, but our contractor upsized it to a 4 ton to be safe from his end.

Solar Guppy · May 2009

Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

I understand your using the pool for the heat source, but I would think there is no need for both the pool and heat pump to run at the same time. The pool will takes days to rise/change in temperature, a simple relay to lock-out the pool pump when the GeoThermal is running will solve most of your issues

PhilS · May 2009

Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

Solar Guppy wrote: »

All split units come "pre-charged", the freon is stored in the outside unit with the valves capped and king values shutoff, the inside is pressurized with nitrogen, but you still have to braze in the line-set, evacuate, open the lines, do the super-cooling checks and bleed as need be

Be sure to check if they are R22 or R410, the latter needs different gauge sets and is a much higher operating pressure, so be super sure of the brazing work. Technically you have to have an EPA card to do the work yourself. ( 10K fine if caught without the card )

Thanks for that clarification SG. I've only looked at R410 units. And rather than buying R410 and another set of gauges I'll end up having a HVAC person come up... without that, most of the warranties are void. That ONE I linked to I could install, and finish, but it's NOT an inverter unit and being off-grid, I'd be throwing away valuable power.

A valuable side-benefit of moving from swamp coolers to a unit like this will be water savings (our well is marginal at best).

Phil

Solar Guppy · May 2009

Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

It cost me 30 dollars for the card ( online test thingy ) and about 200 for the evac,gauges,brazing stuff. For my system, my cost was about 3K is parts, my two neighbors has similar systems replaced , 6K and 8K with one month I did mine for the same manufacture

This mini-split would be simple to compared to the one I did this spring, ost of my time was duct-work, mounting ect

Nothing wrong with using a pro, but they can make close to 200.00 hour for what they do

Dave Angelini · May 2009

Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

There is not any soldering involved if you buy the unit from the link I posted. It is a quick job (less than 15 minutes) to get the system going after install.

Sanyo also states that it is the magnet in their DC motor that gives them the high SEER. The inverter just matches the load (selected) to keep a nice power factor on your AC. It would be ironic (to me) if the setting I am using was the MPPT of my array. Nah don't go there..

Thanks SG for the current read on Tax law

icarus · May 2009

Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

You guys are worried about ac! We had snow on Saturday,, -6c!

Tony

Brock · May 2009

Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

Solar Guppy wrote: »

I understand your using the pool for the heat source, but I would think there is no need for both the pool and heat pump to run at the same time. The pool will takes days to rise/change in temperature, a simple relay to lock-out the pool pump when the GeoThermal is running will solve most of your issues

Right now the geo unit can only dump heat to the pool via heat exchangers on the pool circulation pump lines and the cold side of the geo unit can be fed to the furnace or field or both. I actually plumbed the pool assuming the geo unit would suck in its own pool water heat it and return it, but they plumbed it using heat exchangers where a traditional pool heater would be. So if I turn off the pool circ pump, the geo system would shut off from an over temp.

Solar Guppy · May 2009

Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

http://sanyohvac.com/assets/documents/installation/Install_KHS_09-12_71_Series.pdf

Uses flare fittings ( instead of brazing ) otherwise its standard split install ( requires vac of line )

Personally, I wouldn't use compression fitting for a 400 psi line

Brock · May 2009

Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

Tony, LOL

We hit our first day above 80F today

Dave I read that as well, the whole setup was done with compression fittings. I could do the wiring myself without any worries, but the plumbing does worry me, but compression fittings are not so bad.

So how does that work, obviously the lines are "empty" or open to the air, you connect them up and open the valves, it looks like it comes with 25 or 50 feet of tubing, how could the pressure be right? Or do they precharge them assuming a 25 foot line? Or put in enough for 50 foot line? What about bleeding the air out of those lines?

Solar Guppy · May 2009

Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

its in the manual link I posted how to do the setup, you make the connections, hookup a vac to the lines to get rid of all air and moisture , open the valves and use the manifold gauges to test and do your super cooling test. Its NOT connect and run

BB. · May 2009

Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

By the way Fujistu is heavily advertising (on radio) the last few days--First time I have noticed any split system A/C being advertised here.

Fujitstu Split System International Home Page

We been hitting ~92+F last week--this week much cooler (low 70F's).

-Bill

Dave Angelini · May 2009

Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

Flare fittings are fine if you torque the nuts! Most people over tighten and 6 months later they get a leak. This stuff is not rocket science. Sure the refrigerant is new but a decent vacume pump can pull a deep vacume. It really was 15 minutes and a working unit. This time does not include the install which will make your mileage vary. Ken was great. The guy's daughter was having a baby and he called back 15 minutes later.

If any of this sounds complicated you should hire a pro! The lines were empty but sealed with insulation ready to go. As I said before, and you should read my previous posts the kit that these folks provide had everything except the vacume pump, a 3 inch hole saw,PVC tape, and the rest you probably have. My HVAC guy said he will use these folks over his current supplier. The other unit I installed was so far away and remote the owner rolled the dice on warranty.

If you are offgrid, you would be crazy not to buy the heat pump option! We found out this spring that a 3 hour run in the afternoon and we did not need to light a fire in the woodstove that evening. This would not work in the dead of winter but it would help a little even then.

PhilS · May 2009

Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

Dave Sparks wrote: »

If you are offgrid, you would be crazy not to buy the heat pump option! We found out this spring that a 3 hour run in the afternoon and we did not need to light a fire in the woodstove that evening. This would not work in the dead of winter but it would help a little even then.

Ok, for the additional $160 I guess the heat pump would be a worthwhile option. I can remember more than a few days that we only had a fire for a couple of hours to take the chill off.

Dave... do you shut down power to the unit when it's not in use, like to allow an inverter to go into search mode? I assume the power draw when off wouldn't be very large. If you do shut off power what happens when power is reapplied?

Phil

JESSICA · May 2009

Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

DaveSparks

"Bill is correct on the BTU at 300 watts out. I never stated that you could get 9,000 BTU from 300 watts. I wish I could! The reason I moved to a new thread was so the OP would not think this was portable as she requested. Looks like I confused her still."

I was not confused, but my English is.
Thanks for your advise!

Can you tell me this: When you start the unit, is there a spike? What I mean is this: Is it possible to start the unit with, let's say, an EXELTECH 1,100 inverter? Or does it, as with almost all a/c require a substantial initial current?

[By the way: It is not "her" but "him". "Jessica" is the name of my wife]

dwh · May 2009

Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

BB. wrote: »

By the way Fujistu is heavily advertising (on radio) the last few days--First time I have noticed any split system A/C being advertised here.

Fujitstu Split System International Home Page

We been hitting ~92+F last week--this week much cooler (low 70F's).

-Bill

Was 90's here all last week, 80's this week (Los Angeles).

At least one of those Fujitsu units is a 26 SEER:

http://www.fujitsugeneral.com/wallmounted9-12RLS.htm#features

Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

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