Lithium batteries easily freeze/destroy when discharged.

softdown
softdown Solar Expert Posts: 3,925 ✭✭✭✭
in Off Grid Solar & Battery Systems #1
It also seems that reading 50% charge may be closer to a fraction of the service life going from 100% to 50%.

Sure seems like my Ring doorbell camera went from 50% charged to virtually unable to accept a charge in a remarkably short time. Three days to go from 4% charge to 12% charge. At this point it is an experiment. A new lithium battery is on the way. 

In addition, lithium batteries can be destroyed by charging them when their temperature is below freezing - I think 25F?? Correct me if the 25F figure is wrong. 

A large percentage of off grid systems see freezing indoor conditions. Making lithium batteries a potentially risky choice for many. 

Freezing destroys them when discharged. Charging destroys them when it is freezing.

A good BMS (battery management system) prevents charging them when they are freezing. But a LOT of BMS systems have been busted for making false claims about their capabilities in that regard.   Given the high cost of lithium batteries, that can be quite costly. 

But lithium batteries do store better. Important for many preppers. Mine are better than most (automotive grade they say). Almost no measurable self discharge in 3 1/2 years. Almost none at all. 

Will this inherent risk in lithium batteries ever be realistically resolved?
First Bank:16 180 watt Grape Solar with  FM80 controller and 3648 Inverter....Fullriver 8D AGM solar batteries. Second Bank/MacGyver Special: 10 165(?) watt BP Solar with Renogy MPPT 40A controller/ and Xantrex C-35 PWM controller/ and Morningstar PWM controller...Cotek 24V PSW inverter....forklift and diesel locomotive batteries
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  • JRHill
    JRHill Registered Users Posts: 371 ✭✭✭✭
    #2
    "Will this inherent risk in lithium batteries ever be realistically resolved?"

    Only if you move to Canada. Canadian lithium batteries will have zero problem in freezing temperatures. But they won't work at any other time either.
    Off Grid. Two systems: 1) 2925w panels, OB VFXR3648, FM80, FNDC, Victron BMV-712, Mate3s, 240 xformer, four SimpliPHI 3.8; 2) 780w, Morningstar 30a, Grundfos switch, controller and AC/DC pump, 8 T105. Honda EU7000is w/AGS. Champion 3100. HF 4550, Miller Bobcat.
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  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,631 admin
    #3
    Probably not going to change the temperature for charging of lithium batteries very much... Pretty much controlled by the chemistry itself... Just like there are different lead acid types (variations in chemistry, construction, etc.). The basics are still based on Lead and Sulfuric Acid.

    Really need to find the specifications for the batteries you have... Seen recommendations from 50F to 25F or so for "no charge" threshold. Probably some variation in construction and air circulation among cells--And what a bit of headroom to avoid damage from a cold draft in an installation.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
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  • Wheelman55
    Wheelman55 Registered Users Posts: 246 ✭✭✭
    #4
    I don’t own an EV. They do seem to run fine in the winter. Is a “preheat” process used to allow the batteries to be safely charged?

    I just put a small lithium battery in my 1974 2 liter Alfa Romeo. The tech at the mfg told me to turn on the headlights for a minute or two allowing the battery to warm up before cold weather starts. The tech said that once warmed up, the charge/discharge cycling would keep the battery warm enough. He stated operating temp range of 10 to 140 F in a motor vehicle. 

    The tech said that jump starting a frozen battery, or using a non lithium charger would kill their batteries. Battery model is Anti-Gravity ATX-20 HD. 

    We use Discover lithium batteries at our West TX place, but it never really gets cold there. You’ve got severe cold where you are, so it’s a different ball game for you. 
    Off-Grid in Terlingua, TX
    5,000 watt array - 14 CS 370 watt modules. HZLA horizontal tracker. Schneider: XW6048NA+, Mini PDP, MPPT 80-600, SCP. 390ah LiFeP04 battery bank - 3 Discover AES 42-48-6650 48 volt 130ah LiFePO4 batteries
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  • softdown
    softdown Solar Expert Posts: 3,925 ✭✭✭✭
    #5
    I now know less than I did. The nature of differing insights. 

    I think my current battery room stays above 25F but unsure. Water freezes so it comes pretty close to 25F. Plus cold snaps can reach -20F (outdoors) every few years.

    The daily activity of charging/discharging should keep the batteries a bit warmer. 

    I could also keep a pilot light on a heater lit in the area. 

    I’m far more comfortable with simple and reliable lead acid. But I spent plenty on these pretty big lithiums and will use them. 
    First Bank:16 180 watt Grape Solar with  FM80 controller and 3648 Inverter....Fullriver 8D AGM solar batteries. Second Bank/MacGyver Special: 10 165(?) watt BP Solar with Renogy MPPT 40A controller/ and Xantrex C-35 PWM controller/ and Morningstar PWM controller...Cotek 24V PSW inverter....forklift and diesel locomotive batteries
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  • Wheelman55
    Wheelman55 Registered Users Posts: 246 ✭✭✭
    #6
    Once you figure out a way to keep them warm and start using them, you’ll likely fall in love with lithium. 
    Off-Grid in Terlingua, TX
    5,000 watt array - 14 CS 370 watt modules. HZLA horizontal tracker. Schneider: XW6048NA+, Mini PDP, MPPT 80-600, SCP. 390ah LiFeP04 battery bank - 3 Discover AES 42-48-6650 48 volt 130ah LiFePO4 batteries
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  • softdown
    softdown Solar Expert Posts: 3,925 ✭✭✭✭
    #7
    Keeping them warm in Colorado"s second coldest region is a challenge.
    First Bank:16 180 watt Grape Solar with  FM80 controller and 3648 Inverter....Fullriver 8D AGM solar batteries. Second Bank/MacGyver Special: 10 165(?) watt BP Solar with Renogy MPPT 40A controller/ and Xantrex C-35 PWM controller/ and Morningstar PWM controller...Cotek 24V PSW inverter....forklift and diesel locomotive batteries
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  • JRHill
    JRHill Registered Users Posts: 371 ✭✭✭✭
    #8
    I have had pretty good success with these ceramic heaters. I don't need to heat my LFP04 stuff but one on a thermostat in the porch fridge keeps stuff from freezing in the winter. Very little power draw.
    https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07VHP5RMG?th=1
    Off Grid. Two systems: 1) 2925w panels, OB VFXR3648, FM80, FNDC, Victron BMV-712, Mate3s, 240 xformer, four SimpliPHI 3.8; 2) 780w, Morningstar 30a, Grundfos switch, controller and AC/DC pump, 8 T105. Honda EU7000is w/AGS. Champion 3100. HF 4550, Miller Bobcat.
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  • softdown
    softdown Solar Expert Posts: 3,925 ✭✭✭✭
    #9
    3.8 star rating is indicative of a large percentage of issues. A bunch have not worked for users. 
    First Bank:16 180 watt Grape Solar with  FM80 controller and 3648 Inverter....Fullriver 8D AGM solar batteries. Second Bank/MacGyver Special: 10 165(?) watt BP Solar with Renogy MPPT 40A controller/ and Xantrex C-35 PWM controller/ and Morningstar PWM controller...Cotek 24V PSW inverter....forklift and diesel locomotive batteries
    · Share on Twitter

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