few questions about solar power....
corporal_Canada
Registered Users Posts: 97 ✭✭
bonjour/hello, my name is Christopher from the arrogant french part of Canada(please forgive me if my English isnt flawless), however i moved to the Philippines last year and all this sun smacking me on the top of my gorgeous head got me thinking, why am i not using it... i got 3x 300+ solar panels that produce roughly 100watts each at minimum...... im on my 3rd inverter... i hav a 12v SLA battery that claims to be 100ah.... (however it is very very chinese... sorry before i continue id like to ask 1 simple question ... i learned in basic Tesla Engineering class that electrons only flow 1 direction.....so if all the solar panels are going to the pos and neg terminal of a battery.. how can you expect to draw anything from that battery by clamping an inverter onto those exact terminals ???
anyways.. since the battery only serves to regulate the voltage and / or store a bit of power... am i right to assume that the battery size makes no difference ? as long as it is 12V.. i can just connect any inverter to it...(ie.. 12v car batt or 12v motorcycle batt) and the inverter will power my 200wh pc as long as there is yummy sunlight(and awesome monitor).. as a percaution, i did order a UPS, to protect the pc from commiting seppuku.. i do have a charge controller.. one of those tiny blue chinese ones ... but last time i reconnected everything, the lcd screen on the charge controller refuses to come on.. leading me to believe that my 12v 100ah batt is over....
merci and thank you
anyways.. since the battery only serves to regulate the voltage and / or store a bit of power... am i right to assume that the battery size makes no difference ? as long as it is 12V.. i can just connect any inverter to it...(ie.. 12v car batt or 12v motorcycle batt) and the inverter will power my 200wh pc as long as there is yummy sunlight(and awesome monitor).. as a percaution, i did order a UPS, to protect the pc from commiting seppuku.. i do have a charge controller.. one of those tiny blue chinese ones ... but last time i reconnected everything, the lcd screen on the charge controller refuses to come on.. leading me to believe that my 12v 100ah batt is over....
merci and thank you
Comments
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i am more of a "visual" person so if requested, i can happily demonstrate everything by video
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during daylight hours.. the pos and neg terminal read 18-20 volts.. during non daylight hours.. it reads.. 13-14volts.. did i add too much battery acid ?
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Welcome to the forum CC. No problem with English... My only language--And I do it poorly.
Lots of questions that have deep/detailed answers. I will just answer the questions simply--But we can dive deeply into each subject as you ask.
Batteries are the "heart" of your system. They supply current (power) when the sun is not shining, and/or when your loads exceed your solar power input (I.e., you have 300 Watts of solar at high noon, and 500 Watts of DC/AC inverter loads).
A couple of good rules of thumbs (at least get you somewhere on target), the 12 volt battery (battery bank) should be rated at least for 400 AH per 1,000 Watt of AC inverter rating. This is assuming you want to draw 1,000 Watts at night (no sun) for loads--Which may be longer term (vacuuming the home, running a microwave, etc.) or short term such as starting a water pump, power saw, etc. (most AC inverters are rated roughly 2x the name plate Wattage for a few seconds to a minute of heavy surge loads). The battery bank needs to be able to reliably support those loads.
Lead Acid battery banks are (roughly) fully charged when measuring around 12.8 volts after batteries have "rested" for a 3+ hours. And are near dead when 11.8 volts or less (resting). For lead acid batteries, you really do not want to draw them below 50% state of charge for daily loads. You can discharge down to 20% SoC as long as you quickly recharge the next sunny day.
That your batteries are at 18-20 VDC when the sun is shining--That would normally indicate that there is a problem with the charge controller... Normally, the battery bank should not exceed 14.75 Volts (normal charging) or much over 15-16 VDC when "Equalize Charging" (slightly over charging once a month or so for Flooded Cell Lead Acid Batteries).
The ideal method to measure FLA battery state of charge is with a Hydrometer (density of the Electrolyte).
Electrons do flow either direction in wiring... And in batteries. One direction when discharging, another when charging (in AC wiring, the current flow reverses 50-60 times a second--Alternating Current).
Adding a UPS to your system does add more loads (to run the UPS+loads+battery charging). Not a great idea. I would suggest an inexpensive laptop computer instead--Includes batteries and, for example, my Chrome Book only averages a 5-10 Watt load (can draw more when recharging its internal battery).
There are lots of details to discuss--And I suggest that we address (in detail) one or two questions at a time.
In general... Choose your most energy efficient loads (a desktop computer plus monitor can take upwards of 200-300 Watts vs the 10 Watts for my little laptop). That defines the size of the battery bank (voltage and AH ratings). Then design the solar array to run your loads and charge your battery bank (keep the batteries "happy"). Then start picking components for your solar system that work well together.
Got to go now--
-BillNear San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset -
If your battery is lithium, it will internally disconnect when fully charged. That high voltage of 18-21V will likely destroy an12V inverters input capacitors.
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Loved stumbling upon your questions about solar power. It's fantastic to see more folks diving into sustainable energy. As for your queries, choosing the right solar companies is like finding the perfect puzzle piece; it needs to fit just right! I'd recommend researching local installers, reading reviews, and even reaching out to friends or neighbors who've gone solar. Quality and reliability matter most when it comes to your investment in clean energy. Personally, I've found that smaller, community-oriented companies often provide exceptional service and attention to detail. But hey, everyone's experience is unique!
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sorry, my question was sent some time ago.. i simply thought no one could answer... since then ive linked an additional identical battery using parallel i now have 2x 12v 50ah batts.. CLAIM to be solar batteries but.. cannot be agm if there are refilling caps on top.. or am i wrong ? ( to keep my system at 12v and simplified).... ive duct taped in a 80a fuse (kidding of course)...but there IS a fuse somewhere in my mess of wires... , i placed an order for a mppt because im told that my scc (solar charge controller) is complete crap... and for fun i ordered a clamp meter to confirm exactly what my solar panels are delivering to me....
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Generally, a "Solar Battery" = "Deep Cycle" battery (really for flooded cell/lead acid type batteries).
The general purpose lead acid battery is an SLI type (starting, lights, ignition). Designed for high current (starter), and really not to be discharged below 85% or so Stage of Charge for longer service life. Usually charging voltage is around 14.0-14.4 volts.
Deep cycle batteries typically have a bit less starting current rating (maybe 25% less???), and can require higher charging voltage (for flooded cell type) of ~14.78 volts or so.
And you have batteries that are compounded to use "less water or zero added water" during normal life (call it around 3 years for typical automotive batteries. These typically are not "deep cycle" type.
Marine batteries--Should be "deep cycle" but are usually either a hybrid of SLI and DC, or just a marketing branded SLI battery--Typically used with "trolling motors".
Any of the low/zero water batteries typically use the lower DC charging voltages (to reduce water usage). If your charger runs at a higher voltage (even "cheap" trickle chargers) will still "boil" the water out (gassing) over time (a year or two in my experience).
"Sealed" lead acid batteries are typically "zero water usage" types (and usually not a great deep cycle battery).
The other types of Lead Acid Batteries are the AGM (absorb gas mat)--A very nice "solar/deep cycle" Lead Acid battery, not refillable. VRLA (valve regulated lead acid)--Another type of FLA (there are both float and deep cycle types available--need to read the specifications). And GEL type (electrolyte is treated to turn into a GEL)--Typically not preferred for Solar/fast charging applications.
Most lead acid batteries can be connected in parallel without major issues (same type, roughly same age, keep wiring "the same" to each battery, etc.).
Then there are the Lithium Ion and the Lithium Iron Phosphate batteries. LIP type batteries are what are usually recommended for solar/off grid usage. Long life, long cycle life, generally "safer"--Less chances of fire--Than other types of Li Ion batteries.
Lithium batteries are more prone to early life failures with over voltage/under voltage/out of temperature range, etc. than FLA type batteries... And usually have a BMS (battery management system) connected to monitor the "health of each cell" and the overall operational state of battery (max current, min/max temperature, etc.)...
With Lithiuim batteries, they are "more complicated" to interconnect (BMS, wiring safety issues, etc.) and should be addressed specifically to what brand/models you have.
And for everyone, you can click on this link and setup email notifications:
https://forum.solar-electric.com/profile/preferences/
For Corporal_Canada, you should be receiving emails on your "threads"... You might double check your email address here and your spam folder.
-BillNear San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset -
thank you.. however since my first post ive been stalking a similiar thread on DIYsolar something forums.. and since then ive taken the 100 ah battery and set it aside... and i ordered 2x 12v 50ah batteries.. brand name DCpolarity.. made in Germany but that is as likely as Justin Beiber disproving Eistens theory of relativity.... both those batts are connected via parallel.. currently through a 6 gauge wire.. soon to be replaced by 1/0 gauge so that i can sleep better at night...
here is my current situation.. both my inverters turn my pc tower on and my fiber optics wifi modem.. however.. my 24inch lcd monitor doesnt power on (brand name CHIWORLD)... so my current plan is this.. please follow..
i want to replace the 12v 7ah ups battery with my power bank which is 2x 12v 50ah batteries.. and there IS a rapid "smart charger on its way to yours truly... AND a 1/0 gauge cable to solidify the parallel link with something "buick strong"... and should there be a power outage.. i will just unplug the ups from the wall and safely charge the 2 parallel linked batteries with this cool looking smart charger.. if any of you super smart nerds see any issues with this.. im all ears.. the solar panel integration into this can wait for a later date.. im sure with diodes it can be done... i will stop here before i confess my addiction to Celine Dion... goodnight.. take care and FFS dont eat spam...
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wrote the last paragraph last night after discovering a magic fluid called gin... so if i sound stupid.. now you know.. im aware that the charging portion of my ups will overheat if i let it refill the power bank .. however.. i do have this "smart" rapid charger currently on its way to me... it has 6, 10 and 16amp charging options... i theory.. this should keep my ups from exploding.. because i only intend to draw 200 watts from it.. as im doing this exact moment from a dead 12v 7ah ups battery.. so.. having a larger capacity should not damage it if im very careful... i pull 200watts an hour now.. and the ups puts 200watts an hour back into the powr bank now.. if youd like a photo of 1 battery . i would be mor than happy...
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today was a fun adventure, i tried going to a hardware store to see if i can find something to connect my 1/0 gauge cable to battery terminals... because my ring terminals arent big enough...instead the store owner simply gave me a cable with a ring terminal on both ends already crimped ??the provided cable is roughly 2 inches longer than the one i precut....feel free to tell me if that is a huge no no...i think i read somewhere that the cable going pos to pos and the cable going neg to neg have to have identical length... .. if you can tolerate a Quebec accent, i would be happy to show a video of mysetup and the mismatched cable lengths...
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no need to comment about the pink bedcover... -
i did buy 2 copper ring terminals to hook up to another cable that is identical in length to the bottom right cable.. i just dont have the strength to crimp it... nor the pliers...
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You can find less expensive cable crimpers (these are US suppliers--Not sure what you can find locally):
https://www.solar-electric.com/hacrtoforlal.html (hammer crimping tool)
https://www.harborfreight.com/electrical/electrician-s-tools/wire-strippers-crimpers/crimpers/hydraulic-wire-crimping-tool-64044.html
One person here took an old pair of cable cutters, heated and slowly cooled the cutters, drilled the appropriate sized hole, and reheated/quenched to harden again and made his own crimper.
If you have a battery or welding shop nearby, they can crimp/build some cables for you...
-BillNear San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset -
thank you.. i managed to crimp the 2nd cable with the help of a neighbour.. at this moment... both cables are equal in length...
apart from knowing the exact amount of flow of watts to the batteries... (because 3 solar panels claim to be 300 watts but have4 the dimensions of a 50 watt panel... ) there is no way to know unless i figure out how to use my clamp meter correctly...
here is a visual of my crappy roof.. the 3 largest are the ones connected to my mppt...
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im sorry if your imperial brain exploded.. however earth is "metric" based.. as is most of your usmc.. hell even nasa was back when your home had any shuttles left...
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I practiced on my car with a DC Clamp Meter... Things are repeatable (headlights on/off, engine running, not running, battery charging/discharging, etc.)...
For accurate DC current rating, generally you have to zero the meter first, then clip onto a current carrying wire.
The magnetic sensitive Hall Effect transistor that is used to measure the field, tends to drift a bit over time (minutes?).
Do you know the voltage and current ratings of the panels? More or less, panels that are the "same voltage" can be connected in parallel, and panels that are the "same current" can be connected in series.
Ideally, you want Vmp-array to be >20 volts for optimum operation on a 12 volt battery bank... Many smaller panels are Vmp~17-18 volts--And MPPT does not really help much (MPPT need Array voltage to be 2-5 volts higher than Vbatt bus voltage to get into "useful" MPPT mode).
-BillNear San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset -
thank you, my umm "clamp meter" doesnt have any symbol for dc flow on the dial... 2a, 20a, 600a,.. the A has a very petite line underneath...600v
NCV
600V.. screw it.. ill just post a photo.... -
didnt know i had to keep the cable inside the clamp for a whole minute.. i was practicing on a cable charging my smartphone.. i just dont know what to set THAT dial to before wasting 1 minute at a time for each selection...please give me a hint.. also there is a button on the right below the clamps that just says hold and whenever i touch it..as one does.. i see DH on the lcd screen....
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I was saying that DC Current Clamp Meters can drift over time (minutes) and may need to be re-zeroed ever so often to keep them accurate (one of mine will drift by a few 1/10's of an amp over a few minutes). NOT that you need to measure the current for 1 minute to get an accurate/useful reading.
Your meter appears to be an AC only current clamp meter. They are very nice for measuring AC current (household 120/240/etc. VAC 50/60 Hz. They have a small internal transformer to measure the 100's of amps and down convert that to a fraction of amp for the meter to read.
Transformers do not accurately/reliably transfer DC magnetic fields.
Question about smart phone cable current measurement... If you are clamping the "whole" USB cable (power+data wires), then 1) it will read zero current because the + current flow cancels the - current flow and the sum of the currents are zero (+1.00 amps -1.00 amps = 0 zero amp magnetic field). And 2) your meter cannot measure DC current (it may read non-zero/not accurate for fluctuating DC current).
Doing a quick search, your meter appears to be an AC only current clamp DMM (notice the tilda "~" sign under the current and some voltage range settings)... Note that it can measure DC Voltages (the solid line over the dashed line is a common "DC" symbol):
An AC+DC current clamp meter can measure Either AC or DC current (need to select the correct "major function of voltage vs current" and then the "sub function of AC vs DC, etc.).
https://www.amazon.com/UNI-T-Digital-Handheld-Resistance-Capacitance/dp/B0188WD1NE
r
Quick example of using a current clamp meter:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ncr7Pz_-Alg
Note that AC power has "no polarity" on AC current measurements. For DC current measurements, you will see a "+/-" polarity depending on DC current flow direction.
-Bill
Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset -
thank you for your response so if i got scammed and i was sold a clampmeter that only detect flowing watts of AC.. alternating current... then it will absolutely not pick up any cable that i put in there.. mostly because 99% of electronics fuction on DC... direct current.. also.. im Canadian.. i have barebone knowledge on these things.. in our high school we have a class called basic tesla engineering.. after the Russian dude that invented.. ac ?? always foggy on that...
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Everything is AC. DC is just low frequency AC.
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is that right ? thank you for the correction...
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Ummm.... This is an engineering/physics after school discussion with lots of beer available.
In math, there are lots of assumptions and simplifications that are made so that the math and physics can be simplified to make "good enough" equations to solve for the needed information.
Could you argue that a battery is actually AC (alternating current) with a frequency of hours (i.e, 5 hours charging, change current flow direction and 19 hours of discharge) and time variable current changes (switches turn on/off, 60 Hz single phase AC inverter with a 120 Hz "sine squared" current wave form). Sort of yes... But assuming this would work with an AC transformer--Not really useful in the "real world" (would need a huge "low frequency" transformer to work at 1/24 hour or 0.0000115740740741 Hz (cycles per second).
Go give you a quick idea of the scope of "AC" power... Thomas Edison was a "practical" experimental engineer. He did not have a background in Calculus and other high level math. So, he was enamored with DC (direct current) power distributi
Tesla, on the other had, was very much immersed in high level math and physics that would make your head spin.
The end result was that Edison and his "DC power plants" could only send "useful amount" of energy for a few miles, and could not use high voltage distribution and transformers--Very limiting. And he had to use DC motors with brushes (brushes that had to be changed every few years for 24x7 operation), the electrical noise of brushes arcing, Ozone generation, vs the "simplicity" and reliability of transformers, induction motors, and such.
The history is very interesting and has its own "title"--War of the Currents.
https://www.history.com/news/what-was-the-war-of-the-currents
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_of_the_currents
For "our needs", we do differentiate between AC and DC voltages/currents because our measuring instruments are (typically) designed for one or the other model of operation. And the "loads" have certain assumptions too (a filament lamp can run on AC or DC power--The standard Florescent Tube system needs AC power because it uses a "ballast" to limit current once the "arc inside the tube" is running.
There are times that "fluctuating DC current" has some "AC" current characteristics and we have to take those into account--And more than happy to have a discussion about these issues, but at this point, I would be concerned that this would cause more confusion than clarity until with have the "basics" down.
https://www.khanacademy.org/science/physics/circuits-topic/circuits-resistance/a/ee-voltage-and-current
Khan Academy has a lot of (as far as I know) free courses that could be a good start. For electrical, there is some basic math that is required to understand and implement electrical circuits. But you can get pretty fare with just the basics for day to day home/car/solar/etc. work.
Jumping into electrical applications without a bit of background can be pretty daunting.
-BillNear San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset -
thank you kindly for the crash course sir.. but here is my current situation.. i have a 12v 100ah battery connected to a "smart" charger... past umm.. 3 days.. i am convinced that ive sulfated the anode and cathode of this battery... i was hoping the smart charger would bring it back.. and yes i added distilled water to all the cells...
now my only power bank is 2x 12v 50ah.. healthy .. id like to think.. connected to solar... there is a cutoff switch built into the negative from mppt to battery to break the circuit.. am i go for replacing the ups battery with this ??? and during daylight hours i will unplug the ups from wall outlet and flip the cutoff switch... -
went ahead and hooked everything up, however if the ups isnt hooked up to the wall outlet the pc will not turn on... so i think i need to find a wire inside the ups to install a switch into the ups....to not send power to the power bank from 2 sources simoutaneously...
and PS nothing warm except my body temperature, that was nerve wrecking...
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Is this an actual UPS or something else?
Some (a few, many, all?) UPS (in North America with three wire plugs--Hot/Neutral/Ground) are setup to only "turn on" when they are plugged into a wall outlet. Basically (from what I have seen) they "sense" being plugged into the wall when the Neutral and Ground are connected together (Neutrals are Ground Bonded in the main panel in North American Homes). I believe they do this for "safety" (UPS is properly plugged into a property wired AC power connection.
A few UPS I have worked with will require the wall plug connection, and would continue to stay on, once started, when unplugged from the wall. A couple had manual ON switches that would let me turn on the UPS even if not plugged into the wall (this is from 40 years ago--I have not worked with UPS in a long time).
Are you taking a standard UPS and connecting solar panels+charger to the UPS battery bank/DC input?
Regarding the 12 volt batteries... If they are some sort of lead acid (flooded cell, sealed, AGM, GEL, etc.)--If they have been sitting for many months or longer uncharged--They can sulfate and die during that time. Faster if they were discharged first, then sat for months without being recharged.
Put your meter on the batteries and measure their voltage... 10.5-11.5 volts--dead to very discharged. 12.7+ VDC, fully charged (if no load/no charging). And when charging they should be around 13.8-14.2 volts or so. Running (loaded, not charging), they should be around 12.8 to 12.0 VDC.
(more complicated than that, but a quick check on the battery bank operation)
Have you measured the current/power your PC draws? While a 100 AH @ 12 volt battery bank is pretty hefty for a Home UPS--Depending on your power draw--The UPS may run 5-10 hours on that battery size battery bank (or even less if a high end/power hungry PC).
Also, need to look at the detail specifications for the batteries you are using. You want a deep cycle battery for this operation (if you want to run the PC for hours at night on a daytime solar charge). Standard UPS and "car type batteries" are really designed for shallow discharge (15% discharge, or discharge to 85% State of Charge). They are not designed to be cycled to 50% or less State of Charge on a daily basis.
UPS are not usually a good "host" for solar conversion projects. They (and their batteries) are not really designed for this.
-BillNear San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset -
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ordered another ups... this one comes W/OUT a ups battery... so.. in THEORY.. if i connect the battery pos and neg to my power bank everything should function as intended... brand name... "Intex 650" that sounds familiar.. i choose ups because it has a sine wave inverter and avr built into it.. and i actually NEED my pc to keep my mind occupied... i have severe ptsd.. i witnessed an average murican inhaling a.. umm.. "big mac" ??? just kidding... i served the Canadian Armed Forces in several major engagements from 2003 to 2013.. but did it end there ? noooooo stop loss for the first Ukraine invasion in 2014 after the socci olympics.. i hope your media said SOMETHING about our efforts over there.. anywho.. video games keep my mind preoccupied.. the ONLY thing connected to this ups is a power surge bar with 4 outlets.. on that bar.. 1 computer tower which draws 65 to 120 watts.. 24 inch lcd which draws 25-27 watts... fiber optic wifi modem. which traditionally draws. 5 or 10 watts... i WANT my ups or ANY ups running all this but NOT connected to the wall outlet.. but receiving power from a mppt.. which has.. i dunno.. 150 watts going to it .. by way of 3 solar panels exactly 2 meters from my body and at night.. i will break the circuit of negative cable from mppt to battery to negative of my power bank... and plug the ups into the grid.. safely topping off the power bank...
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just pulled out my crappy multimeter.. and checked the entire power bank... (positive on the right battery and negative on the left battery).. reads.. umm.. 5 volts ???oh and i did the reading WHILE the ups is connected to the power bank..... can this be right ????
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tested the ups battery that came with the ups.. reads 5v also...put everything back the way it was.. im not comfortable with this ups anymore
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