Is the Classic CC too long in the tooth?

SteveK · August 2023

Hello all,

It's been quite awhile since I've posted but have lurked here from time to time with nothing much to add. I've been tempted to get political on the freeform areas but have held my tongue and been a good boy (yes I'm a boy, got the DNA to prove it). Good to see so many names still here since twenty-freaking-ten!

I've recently upgraded my small home system (off grid only) and moved most of my old system components to our newish 5'er. I've done all the panels new roof mount with 10 Canadian Solar BiHiKu6 540W in 5p2s for my oddly shaded New England application, code compliant conduit, Ironridge rail system, Jaybox, wiring, Tigo RSS, Midnite combiner and Schneider XW Pro 6848 with InsightHome and 15kw of EG4 LFP batteries with customized BMS comms with XW Pro. The one piece I continue to use is the Midnite Solar Classic 200, with busted ethernet, that I will place in slave duty to a new Classic 150. The Classic 200 will handle some 1kw of shed mounted panels in the near future.

All systems working famously. That Midnite Classic 200 S/N 115 just wont give up the ghost though......do I need to shoot it or somethin'?

If you made it this far, thank you. My question is am I doing the right thing purchasing another Classic while now using LFP batteries? I mean, .1V resolution, no V-Sense, no BMS comms. On the plus side there is Arc Fault (biggie for the AHJ here), Ground Fault and that time-tested invisible cloak of invincibility that comes with it.

Steve

SteveK · August 2023

That is 2s5p.

Dave Angelini · August 2023

A good company Midnite for sure! If you ever close the loop, (maybe you are now?) having a system that communicates (all devices) over a network can make things easier, especially for others. Significant other? Just depends on all of the variables.

Image: https://us.v-cdn.net/6024911/uploads/editor/rq/enbd9ng6hklv.jpg

SteveK · August 2023

Yes the customized EG4 BMS protocol allows closed loop comms with XW Pro. I would really like to get a Schneider MPPT to package things nicely but I'd take a large hit on production. The PV 230V startup and 195V run requirements of the Schneiders are way above my 94V system unfortunately. Need lots in paralell because of shading issues.

I see some folks were working on a Midnite to Schneider interface but that seems to have died around the time that the Pro was released.

Schneider doesnt seem to want small scale solar and I wish they did.

Dave Angelini · August 2023

You have to rewire for 150v or 600v. It is not a hard thing to do. Short of that get another classic.

Not sure what you mean about small scale. I think they and Outback own it!

Photowhit · August 2023

Not sure if shooting a Midnite classic would kill it...lol
I just leave mine outside in a tiny 25 cubic foot box and for 10+ years they have lived through humidity, heat and cold producing nicely...
FWIW - One of mine wouldn't update, and I couldn't direct it, but "follow me" still works fine so I didn't send it back for repairs (they kindly extended the offer even though it was officially out of warranty) I think they picked a good name!

boB · August 2023

There is newer software still being tested that helps your lithium battery support... Hopefully it gets released in a couple of weeks.

There is still hope for the Classic to be guided by various BMS's though. The Classics will eventually work with the rest of the system and up coming Comm box to follow the BMS as well. BUT it's not ready yet.

Monitoring for the newer equipment works and we will be offering those soon as well.

Thank you for the kind words folks.

Schneider is a great company and are definitely the goal to emulate.

boB

SteveK · August 2023

Dave Angelini said:

You have to rewire for 150v or 600v. It is not a hard thing to do. Short of that get another classic.

Not sure what you mean about small scale. I think they and Outback own it!

Looking back I might have chosen better words because I have no clue what Schneider wants or doesn't want and I also have no clue about market shares. What I should have said was it seems that Schneider has a straight and narrow path to follow. Probably becase of the behemoth factor and their ultimate quality reputation.

For example, in my case, I would need two mppt 60 150's to serve my 2s5p rooftop array alone (shading issues), then a third for the additional shed panels. If Schneider had something between the 150V and 600V, like a ~200V ~100A choice, I'd most likely pay the premium and go for it just for the excellent reason you showed.

Instead I'll most likely be entrenched in Docker mode Homeassistant all winter mucking my way through to piece together a more crude representation of the sum of the disimilar parts. All the while longing to be elsewhere. Just to save some ducats and some wall space.

It's good to know that Schneider and Outback are still near or at the kings of the hill status. The more I peruse the various forums elsewhere the less I see of them and the more I see of the generic rebranded all-in-one devices. Not knocking them either but they seem to be everywhere. Heck, I even went for rebranded EG4 batteries to save some money as well.

SteveK · August 2023

Photowhit said:

Not sure if shooting a Midnite classic would kill it...lol

I'd be afraid of ricochets, or maybe the ethernet becoming operational again?

SteveK · August 2023

boB said:

There is newer software still being tested that helps your lithium battery support... Hopefully it gets released in a couple of weeks.

There is still hope for the Classic to be guided by various BMS's though. The Classics will eventually work with the rest of the system and up coming Comm box to follow the BMS as well. BUT it's not ready yet. Monitoring for the newer equipment works and we will be offering those soon as well.

Thank you for the kind words folks.

Schneider is a great company and are definitely the goal to emulate.

boB

That's great news. Looking forward to what you guys come up with. It made my choice easier knowing this Classic 150 will be updated.

Thanks

littleharbor2 · August 2023

boB said:

There is newer software still being tested that helps your lithium battery support... Hopefully it gets released in a couple of weeks.

There is still hope for the Classic to be guided by various BMS's though. The Classics will eventually work with the rest of the system and up coming Comm box to follow the BMS as well. BUT it's not ready yet. Monitoring for the newer equipment works and we will be offering those soon as well.

Thank you for the kind words folks.

Schneider is a great company and are definitely the goal to emulate.

boB

boB, Question, I haven't updated my Classic in, probably 8 - 9 years. Would there be any issues in updating it now?.

My classic has been in Baja for that long and I recently got full internet service.

SteveK · August 2023

I'm far from being boB but thought I'd mention I had never updated the firmware on my early Classic 200 until a month ago. Got rid of the Wizard and the occasional Got Comm?. Went flawlessly with only good things to report.

littleharbor2 · August 2023

SteveK said:

I'm far from being boB but thought I'd mention I had never updated the firmware on my early Classic 200 until a month ago. Got rid of the Wizard and the occasional Got Comm?. Went flawlessly with only good things to report.

Thanks for the info. I recently switched to LiFePo batteries, adjusted the charge setpoints, and am having no trouble but thought it would have some added benefit by updating my Classic.

SteveK · August 2023

littleharbor2 said:

SteveK said:

I'm far from being boB but thought I'd mention I had never updated the firmware on my early Classic 200 until a month ago. Got rid of the Wizard and the occasional Got Comm?. Went flawlessly with only good things to report.

Thanks for the info. I recently switched to LiFePo batteries, adjusted the charge setpoints, and am having no trouble but thought it would have some added benefit by updating my Classic.

Did exactly that same thing. Since I was upgrading figured it was the right thing to do. I was sort of hoping the ethernet issue I have would disappear but it's a hardware failure that stems from a lightning strike years ago. I firmly believe in staying with a working firmware version for as long as possible unless a new revision gives new useful features. Can't count how many times "upgrades" have meessed up or even bricked my phones, raspberry pi projects and the like.

I have complete faith and much patience to wait for Midnite to offer their upgrades and enhancements for lithium batteries and hope they are rock solid ones.

littleharbor2 · August 2023

SteveK said:

littleharbor2 said:

SteveK said:

I'm far from being boB but thought I'd mention I had never updated the firmware on my early Classic 200 until a month ago. Got rid of the Wizard and the occasional Got Comm?. Went flawlessly with only good things to report.

Thanks for the info. I recently switched to LiFePo batteries, adjusted the charge setpoints, and am having no trouble but thought it would have some added benefit by updating my Classic.

Did exactly that same thing. Since I was upgrading figured it was the right thing to do. I was sort of hoping the ethernet issue I have would disappear but it's a hardware failure that stems from a lightning strike years ago. I firmly believe in staying with a working firmware version for as long as possible unless a new revision gives new useful features. Can't count how many times "upgrades" have meessed up or even bricked my phones, raspberry pi projects and the like.

I have complete faith and much patience to wait for Midnite to offer their upgrades and enhancements for lithium batteries and hope they are rock solid ones.

Exactly, I'm a ,"If it aint broke...." kind of guy. I'm still on the fence regarding updating my Classic because after a few simple charge voltage settings, it's working just fine with my LFP battery.

I do have a back up Classic that I found on sale for under 500 dollars on the NAWS online store. What a deal. They had more Classic 200's on the shelf that weren't moving so they put them in the clearance area for like 200 dollars off. I jumped on it. good thing because the next day they were gone.

SteveK · August 2023

Man, I totally agree with the "it's working just fine" part. If they did nothing at all things would be fine. But also, IMO, a company must strive to stay current and therefore remain relative to new and improved technologies. It's too easy for competiton to toss around terms like "old tech for legacy batteries", "sure it'll do it but it wasn't designed to", "ours had lithium in mind" yadda yadda.

I have a deep desire to see these US companies succeed. A big reason I don't own a Rosie is that I found a brand new Sept 2021 Xw Pro 6848 for sale on Ebay from a Inventory Clearing House that was only 30 miles from my home that had the Pro and Mini PDP for sale for less than $3k, no Tax as I have an ST12 in MA, and no shipping cuz I picked them up at the warehouse.. They had 10 and I almost bought spares.

Was worried about a Schneider warranty but registered the devices and they are good to go.

As a matter of firmware issues, I have had and continue to have firmware issues with the XW Pro. Schneider spent three hours with me, honorably, troubleshooting a bug in their 120V fimware. It wont allow me to locally save setiings related to grid settings. They wont stick. They have had this for months now with no solution. They are working on it.

Now, to me no biggie. I'm off grid with this system and utilize the 120/240V firmware. BUT! The InsightCloud application is AWEFUL. It's like a time machine. Want to know the current staus of your system? Log in and wait 15 minutes......

Dave Angelini · August 2023

I do not have that problem with Insight Cloud. What I do when I log-in is log out and go back in. Boom really fast. I think you need to remember to log out when you are done. I know I always forget to....

Image: https://us.v-cdn.net/6024911/uploads/editor/rd/a1s1c0czvdvl.jpg

SteveK · August 2023

Thanks Dave, I'll give that a shot.

Just to be clear. The site comes up fast enough but the data is stale for 10 to 15 minutes. I had the fortunate experience of working with a Schneider tech from the Phillipines. I swear, every time I have had tech support from there be it Intuit, Dell, Schneider etc it has been stellar. When I told the tech that I had all but given up on the InsightCloud because of the lagging data being 10 minutes he replied with "It's more like 15 minutes." He referred to his region of NAM, not Vietnam but N.America east coast, and said he has had to deal with this for quite some time.

Makes me wonder if it's not a east coast server problem.

I'll give this a shot a few times and report back.

Thanks again!

Dave Angelini · August 2023

There are 3 levels of tech support. Most are entry level and even though you think it is helpful..... Your advice from them is wrong. I did the beta for offgrid for Schneider in 2018. It has been rock solid except when they are doing site maintenance. You should have data for your site from the cloud in seconds. You can get real time data by entering your login for local. The data should be there though and speced at 10 minute refresh unless you entered the local PW. Either way you see data as soon as seconds after, not 15 minutes.

Your set-up is a probable issue if you are not seeing data after doing what I suggested. I have a bunch of clients back east that have zero issue with cloud insight.

I talk with Tech support all of the time. Never had anyone outside the US. They are in Colorado mostly or working from home in the US.
Maybe you are going in thru the international Schneider?

Image: https://us.v-cdn.net/6024911/uploads/editor/dp/ddfk98ce6jbd.jpg

SteveK · August 2023

Well Dave you solved my data issue. I run a pc close to the inverter and another at the same time. Logged out of all. Logged back in and the data is current, not from 10 minutes ago. Awesome! Thanks for the tech support contact info too.

The firmware bug is being worked on still. Might be International tech support I have reached? Here is the series of emails from Jeno supposedly in in Phillipines. These were a couple weeks after after the 3 hour call:
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hi Steve,

Good Day! I just want to inform you that Engineering has been notified of potential bug in 120v FW - unable to enable Grid Support in single unit 120-v only system.

I'll be sending you updates on what is the status of our request with the engineering and also the possible solution for this.

Thank you and best regards,
Jeno | Schneider Electric | Solar Technical Support Website: https://solar.se.com/

--------------- Original Message ---------------
From: Jeno [sesolarsupport@se.com]
Sent: 6/29/2023 7:34 AM
To: xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: NAM/ EU/ Stephen Kunkel/ XW Pro (120V)/ Cannot turn on Grid Support [ thread::hMUxpY6yfHOSdtQGLffllT4:: ]

Hi Steve,

Thanks for doing this, now we identify that this is a firmware issue. I'm gonna be getting help from our next level of support to acquire the necessary firmware to make this inverter of yours to work properly.

Thank you and best regards,
Jeno | Schneider Electric | Solar Technical Support Website: https://solar.se.com/

--------------- Original Message ---------------
From: [xxxxxxxxxxxx]
Sent: 6/28/2023 6:30 AM
To: sesolarsupport@se.com
Subject: Re: NAM/ EU/ Stephen Kunkel/ XW Pro (120V)/ Cannot turn on Grid Support [ thread::hMUxpY6yfHOSdtQGLffllT4:: ]

[External email: Use caution with links and attachments]

Hi Jeno

Sorry I thought I replied. Yes the 120v firmware is causing my issue. On 120/240V firmware 2.04 bn29 my settings work fine. Will you send a 120V firmware update?

Thanks,

Steve

Get BlueMail for Android

On Jun 27, 2023, at 5:39 PM, Jeno <sesolarsupport@se.com> wrote:

Hi Steve,

I hope you had a great day! Have you tried the steps that we suggested in order for us to identify if this was a problem in the firmware or the device itself?

Thank you and best regards,
Jeno | Schneider Electric | Solar Technical Support Website: https://solar.se.com/

--------------- Original Message ---------------
From: Jeno [sesolarsupport@se.com]
Sent: 6/24/2023 7:53 AM
To: xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: NAM/ EU/ Stephen Kunkel/ XW Pro (120V)/ Cannot turn on Grid Support [ thread::hMUxpY6yfHOSdtQGLffllT4:: ]

Hi Steve,

Thank you so much for doing this for us. We really appreciate it. We'll be expecting any update from you soon.

Thank you and best regards,
Jeno | Schneider Electric | Solar Technical Support Website: https://solar.se.com/

--------------- Original Message ---------------
From: xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: 6/23/2023 6:58 PM
To: sesolarsupport@se.com
Subject: Re: NAM/ EU/ Stephen Kunkel/ XW Pro (120V)/ Cannot turn on Grid Support [ thread::hMUxpY6yfHOSdtQGLffllT4:: ]

[External email: Use caution with links and attachments]

[External email: Use caution with links and attachments]

Hi Jeno,

Of course. Will do this later today.

----- Original Message -----
From: Jeno <sesolarsupport@se.com>
To: xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Thu, 22 Jun 2023 20:27:09 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: NAM/ EU/ Stephen Kunkel/ XW Pro (120V)/ Cannot turn on Grid Support [ thread::hMUxpY6yfHOSdtQGLffllT4:: ]

<html><head><title></title></head><body>Hi Steve, 
It should still work even with just an XW Pro. 
I just have a request and I hope that you can do it for us so we can identify if this is a software glitch that we need to fix for the 120V firmware. For troubleshooting purposes, can you revert the connection of your inverter to the original one which is a 120/240V and upload the 120/240V firmware to it. And check if you can change the settings on the grid support on this setup? Also while doing this, please do not connect the system to the grid. 
Thank you and best regards, 
Jeno | Schneider Electric | Solar Technical Support Website: https://solar.se.com

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

After this I got a contact message from Engineering saying they are on it.

Thanks again, again.

Dave Angelini · August 2023

OK so I go in thru an Installer link or Engineering. At least you not getting "China support" Good that Schneider diversified out of there a few years back. They now manufacture XWP in 3 countries.

Why on earth would you want the "120vac firmware? That is for 3 phase use of XWP BTW. Even if you only had 120vac loads XWP will balance fine.

SteveK · August 2023

Just in case for generator support. I only have a single phase genny. Since then I have found some devices that will allow me to use that to charge in 120/240 mode if need be but intially the solution was 120v firmware.

I thought tech support was excellent. you'll notice the 120/240v firmware on se.com has been updated bt not so with the 120v only.

Dave Angelini · August 2023

Get the right genset!

You will have other issues using XW, The 3 phase has requirements that may be causing your issue, like the sync cable on multiunit systems.
I have a few 3 phase systems out there and they work fine on the firmware.

New firmware is often for problems with new features being added. You can read the release notes. I spend over 100 hours each year on training with SE. Maybe you can make this work but the standard advice from SE is to not convert unless you have 3 phase loads. Good Luck !

SteveK · August 2023

Interesting. Looks like I will stay with the 120/240 config no matter what. Maybe I shouldn't be surprised that the tech didn't know this before escalating the ticket. Glad I got the straight skinny here.

Not that it matters at this point but I should mention that I could always enable grid support while on InsightCloud but it took two or three attempts to make it stick. It never worked on InsightLocal. Enough scratching my head on this one. I'll stay with the recomended firmware as you suggest.

The company that sells my batteries also sells what they term to be a Chargeverter for ~$400. It makes it possible to charge using the 120/240v XW Pro with a single phase genny. It also cleans up a dirty source. Time for a test drive I suppose. Funds don't allow another $6k to replace my small and relatively young inverter generator with a large generator at the moment.

You have been a great help.

Graham Parkinson · August 2023

That "Chargeverter" is likely an 120VAC to 120/240VAC autotransformer. They are a proven way of running 120 into an XW. Not sure what the "dirty source" cleanup function could be with an autotransformer, other than the inductive reactance of the transformer's windings acting to clean up any potential high frequency hash on the genset output.

SteveK · August 2023

Graham Parkinson said:

That "Chargeverter" is likely an 120VAC to 120/240VAC autotransformer. They are a proven way of running 120 into an XW. Not sure what the "dirty source" cleanup function could be with an autotransformer, other than the inductive reactance of the transformer's windings acting to clean up any potential high frequency hash on the genset output.

Here's a link to the manual (hope it's OK to do so): http://eg4electronics.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/03/Chargeverter-5kW-Spec-Sheet-Ver.-1.1.0.pdf?ref=cpwlcvc0sw-bjn

I would believe this device is not of the highest quality. For $400 what would I expect, right? All reports are saying it does as advertised with some taking exception to efficiency ratings. Several reports are claiming 80-85% efficiency vs the 90-92% as advertised but they don't really state the input voltage and waveform condition either.

Not sure what's inside. I'd believe an autotransformer and a filter section but, for my budget and the very few times this will be used, like the genny, I'll probably buy it when the time comes.

This unless Schneider comes back with the 120V firmware and blesses it's application as standalone 120V inverter/charger.

Dave Angelini · August 2023

You can buy a 8+ KW/30A genset at Costco for around 800$ that will actually be useful with an XW. Most XW applications use 12 to 18KW gensets that run the 60A XFER switching.

SteveK · August 2023

Thanks Dave. I looked in to why and it all makes perfect sense to me.

Graham Parkinson · August 2023

Ahh - The EG4 "Chargeverter" is actually just a battery charger, not an autotransformer or filter. As Dave says the XW will charge with a 240 VAC generator or you can use an autotransformer to generate split phase 240/120 from a 120VAC genset. But you likely already knew that.

SteveK · August 2023

You know, Graham, I know less than I don't. Always find myself in a never ending loop of adjustment and therefore learning....the hard way LOL. But it's fun and keeps that dreaded "old man brain" at bay I hope. Sometimes though it appears as in this instance.

Dave Angelini · August 2023

SteveK said:

Thanks Dave. I looked in to why and it all makes perfect sense to me.

Wow I must have been good! "it all makes perfect sense to me." There is plenty that does not make sense to me these days.

My comedian buddy says "there has never been a dumber time to be alive"

Is the Classic CC too long in the tooth?

Comments

Categories