How much damage to lithium tool batteries from a full charge?

softdown
softdown Solar Expert Posts: 3,915 ✭✭✭✭
in In the Weeds--Member's Choice #1
I have what seems to be the bad habit of recharging lithium tool batteries after use. Could be a day, could be weeks before using again. 

Thing is that lithium batteries are damaged when stored above ~90% and below ~15%. But how much? 

It would be ideal if one knew how many batteries would be needed for a job and simply charge them right before use. But that may not be realistic. 

Charging them to 100% isn't really bad. It is the storage at 100% that plates the edges and lowers output. 
First Bank:16 180 watt Grape Solar with  FM80 controller and 3648 Inverter....Fullriver 8D AGM solar batteries. Second Bank/MacGyver Special: 10 165(?) watt BP Solar with Renogy MPPT 40A controller/ and Xantrex C-35 PWM controller/ and Morningstar PWM controller...Cotek 24V PSW inverter....forklift and diesel locomotive batteries
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  • Marc Kurth
    Marc Kurth Solar Expert Posts: 1,170 ✭✭✭✭
    #2
    FWIW: My Samsung Galaxy phone has a setting for "extended battery life" that stops charging when the battery climbs up to 85%.
    I always have more questions than answers. That's the nature of life.
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  • Dave Angelini
    Dave Angelini Solar Expert Posts: 6,904 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    #3
    The exact chemistry of the lithium matters also. You can't just say lithium if you care about really charging them correctly.
    As Marc wrote, use the manufactures recommendation for longest life.

     The other route is to pick devices that are easy to change the battery😉
    "we go where power lines don't" Sierra Nevada mountain area
       htps://offgridsolar1.com/
    E-mail offgridsolar@sti.net

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  • JRHill
    JRHill Registered Users Posts: 361 ✭✭✭✭
    #4
    I consider tool batteries about the same as ink jet cartridges. While the battery powered tool isn't quite 'given away' with low purchase cost like the printers, replacement batteries, like ink cartridges are an on going big money maker after the purchase. And it doesn't serve this revenue stream well to add features to the extend/protect their lifespan. Hand tools like drivers and drills definately fall into the same category.

    My most recent tool purchases were a Ryobi 40v 14" saw and a string trimmer that use the same batteries. Living in the forest there is always a use for a small, light saw that only needs to run for a few minutes. The trimmer is used mainly for quick jobs along walking paths so Mr. Timber Rattler can't lay in wait for easy pickin's of us or the dogs.

    I do wish there was a simple adjustable setting for these chargers 'cause like Softdown I have habit of dropping the battery into the charger and forgetting about it.
    Off Grid. Two systems: 1) 2925w panels, OB VFXR3648, FM80, FNDC, Victron BMV-712, Mate3s, 240 xformer, four SimpliPHI 3.8; 2) 780w, Morningstar 30a, Grundfos switch, controller and AC/DC pump, 8 T105. Honda EU7000is w/AGS. Champion 3100. HF 4550, Miller Bobcat.
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  • softdown
    softdown Solar Expert Posts: 3,915 ✭✭✭✭
    #5
    Yea, I spend a LOT on tool batteries. I must press too hard because they sure don't hold up like they are supposed to. 
    I guess one could put a loud timer next to the charger and probably be able to disconnect the charger before too much damage has been done. Bit of a nuisance though. 
    First Bank:16 180 watt Grape Solar with  FM80 controller and 3648 Inverter....Fullriver 8D AGM solar batteries. Second Bank/MacGyver Special: 10 165(?) watt BP Solar with Renogy MPPT 40A controller/ and Xantrex C-35 PWM controller/ and Morningstar PWM controller...Cotek 24V PSW inverter....forklift and diesel locomotive batteries
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  • Marc Kurth
    Marc Kurth Solar Expert Posts: 1,170 ✭✭✭✭
    #6
    My Ridgid brand tools from Home Depot have a lifetime battery warranty. That is why I selected them. I know that they honor the program because I got a new battery after 5 years. Their tools may not meet everyone's needs, but battery replacement is high on my list.
    I always have more questions than answers. That's the nature of life.
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  • softdown
    softdown Solar Expert Posts: 3,915 ✭✭✭✭
    #7
    Marc Kurth said:
    My Ridgid brand tools from Home Depot have a lifetime battery warranty. That is why I selected them. I know that they honor the program because I got a new battery after 5 years. Their tools may not meet everyone's needs, but battery replacement is high on my list.
    Batteries have to be bought from Home Depot? Probably with a receipt? I don't see how they can make money with a lifetime warranty. 10 years is a pretty good run for a lithium tool battery that see's normal use. 

    I buy 12 aH Milwaukee batteries that cost about $200 online. I like to use battery chainsaws for limbing and bucking. In fact Milwaukee's 12 aH batteries are the reason that I recommend Milwaukee. Makita likes to use two smaller batteries for 36 volts. OK in the warm saw but not as effective in their chain saw. 

    The cost of nice tools can keep the handyman from realising the profits that were generated with basic hand tools. I spend a fortune on tools because I do so many things. A fortune. 
    First Bank:16 180 watt Grape Solar with  FM80 controller and 3648 Inverter....Fullriver 8D AGM solar batteries. Second Bank/MacGyver Special: 10 165(?) watt BP Solar with Renogy MPPT 40A controller/ and Xantrex C-35 PWM controller/ and Morningstar PWM controller...Cotek 24V PSW inverter....forklift and diesel locomotive batteries
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  • Dave Angelini
    Dave Angelini Solar Expert Posts: 6,904 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    edited December 2022 #8
    I have never had a my Ryobi, DeWalt or Craftsmen chargers not stop or interrupt voltage to the lithium cells.

     Once the green light stops flashing they can sit plugged in. The state of California required in 2008, (guessing from memory) that these devices had to draw less than a watt or so after the device shuts down.

    Measure your charger with a Kilowatt meter. It should be pretty much zero watts after charging.

    In the old days when I helped design offgrid homes, we always ran a circuit up to the bath room or office with a one hour timer to shut down chargers. The NiCad batteries had terrible chargers, often.

    Solar was 10 dollars a watt and you had to save every watt. B)
    "we go where power lines don't" Sierra Nevada mountain area
       htps://offgridsolar1.com/
    E-mail offgridsolar@sti.net

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  • Marc Kurth
    Marc Kurth Solar Expert Posts: 1,170 ✭✭✭✭
    #9
    Laugh if you wish, but I still use a lot of plug-in power tools along with battery powered. When I am working too far from the house, one of my little Honda 2000 generators and a good extension cord do what I need.
    I always have more questions than answers. That's the nature of life.
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  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,622 admin
    #10
    Saw a contractor with 2 or 3 battery powered drills lined up for use as one went dead drilling holes for concrete anchors, installing new fare equipment at the local train station. 20 feet away was a genset  at his truck running several battery chargers.

    In general, seems most of the local contractors simply use a Honda eu2x00i (small inverter-generator) for their outside/remote jobs and bypass the battery issues.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
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  • Dave Angelini
    Dave Angelini Solar Expert Posts: 6,904 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    edited December 2022 #11
    On a cruising sailboat in the tropics the DC equipment just never lasted as long as AC equipment like drills and such.
    It was part of the emergency repair tools that were bullet proof to have a good genset. 

    I still have an EU 2000i from when they first came out. It smokes a bit but always starts on the 2nd pull. Not bad for 23 years.
    "we go where power lines don't" Sierra Nevada mountain area
       htps://offgridsolar1.com/
    E-mail offgridsolar@sti.net

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  • softdown
    softdown Solar Expert Posts: 3,915 ✭✭✭✭
    #12
    BB. said:
    Saw a contractor with 2 or 3 battery powered drills lined up for use as one went dead drilling holes for concrete anchors, installing new fare equipment at the local train station. 20 feet away was a genset  at his truck running several battery chargers.

    In general, seems most of the local contractors simply use a Honda eu2x00i (small inverter-generator) for their outside/remote jobs and bypass the battery issues.

    -Bill
    Concrete anchor holes require significant power. Done many this year. Just ordered a Milwaukee M18 battery SDS Plus drill. Long cords under decks can be such a nuisance.
    To be honest I'm just a tool junkie. Easy to do when you make a living using tools. I don't do plumbing or very much wiring or drywall. Just too slow

    First Bank:16 180 watt Grape Solar with  FM80 controller and 3648 Inverter....Fullriver 8D AGM solar batteries. Second Bank/MacGyver Special: 10 165(?) watt BP Solar with Renogy MPPT 40A controller/ and Xantrex C-35 PWM controller/ and Morningstar PWM controller...Cotek 24V PSW inverter....forklift and diesel locomotive batteries
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