Shared battery storage research

DaveWatsonDaveWatson Registered Users Posts: 3
Hello solar enthusiasts.

I am a university student that has studied climate change and photovoltaic's. I'm planning on installing my own PV system once I can secure enough money to buy myself a house.

I'm currently writing my masters thesis and need some help with some data collection. I would really appreciate it if you could help me by filling in this short 10 question survey regarding battery storage for PV systems.

https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLSfudQ4dqr8aog7REN9698Ri3THiBHUiZlibhs8oRFIshY9aCQ/viewform?usp=sf_link

I'm really pleased with how far solar has come and really excited about its future. Thank you.

Comments

  • PhotowhitPhotowhit Solar Expert Posts: 5,827 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Hello solar enthusiasts.

    I am a university student that has studied climate change and photovoltaic's. I'm planning on installing my own PV system once I can secure enough money to buy myself a house.

    I'm currently writing my masters thesis and need some help with some data collection. I would really appreciate it if you could help me by filling in this short 10 question survey regarding battery storage for PV systems.

    https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLSfudQ4dqr8aog7REN9698Ri3THiBHUiZlibhs8oRFIshY9aCQ/viewform?usp=sf_link

    I'm really pleased with how far solar has come and really excited about its future. Thank you.
    Issues;

    I don't have solar panels on my roof. I have a ground mount system.

    "Adding battery storage to a solar system can be a great way to increase self consumption."
    Awful assumption/statement, Better to say "allows for consumption/use when power from the grid is lost.

    A question that assumes you don't have a solar electric system, with an asterisk that has no corresponding info "Please rank the factors that would increase the likelihood of you installing a solar PV system in the future. * "

    Lots of poor assumtion's; 
    You appear to make assumptions that people are grid tied, People only install solar panels on their roof, That someone else's battery isn't similar to having to deal with another agency for power, That 6 kWhs of storage is meaningful in a world where people heat and air condition with electric, That people only live with grid tied systems, that $365 dollars a day for 6 kWhs of storage is cheaper than a private battery (my 16 kWh, 13kwhs usable battery cost $2525 over 10 years ago, would cost $2700 today and today still has more than 6 kWhs of storage...
    Home system 4000 watt (Evergreen) array standing, with 2 Midnite Classic Lites,  Midnite E-panel, Magnum MS4024, Prosine 1800(now backup) and Exeltech 1100(former backup...lol), 660 ah 24v Forklift battery(now 10 years old). Off grid for 20 years (if I include 8 months on a bicycle).
    - Assorted other systems, pieces and to many panels in the closet to not do more projects.
  • DaveWatsonDaveWatson Registered Users Posts: 3
    thank you, I appreciate the feedback. I'll try to make some improvements. Yes you are correct I have made a few assumptions, perhaps too many. They research project i'm working on had a rooftop focus in cities, but I should definitely change some of my assumptions to gain better insights. 
  • BB.BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 32,642 admin
    Dave,

    I guess you are up somewhere in Norway area? Solar in Winter is obvuiously not a great solution:

    http://www.solarelectricityhandbook.com/solar-irradiance.html

    Stavanger
    Average Solar Insolation figures

    Measured in kWh/m2/day onto a solar panel set at a 31° angle from vertical:
    (For best year-round performance)

    JanFebMarAprMayJun
    0.78
     
    1.89
     
    2.81
     
    4.10
     
    4.99
     
    4.71
     
    JulAugSepOctNovDec
    4.50
     
    4.09
     
    3.23
     
    2.05
     
    1.11
     
    0.00
     

    I suggest that "good solar" starts at around 3 Hours of (noon time equivalent sun) per day...

    If you are looking at solar in cities... You are, generally, looking at Grid Tied (utility interactive) systems. See if you can find a utility based set of electrical data for your region. Here in California we have a pretty good one (over 90% or so of the entire states loads/generation sources are tracked):

    https://www.caiso.com/Pages/default.aspx

    It shows the "mix" of traditional utility power generators (fuel, hydro) vs Wind, Sun, Bio Fuels over time.

    For utilities, balancing variable supply (typically wind and sun) vs loads is a tricky business. The utility typically needs to keep the "base load" power plants running 24 hours per day--They can take 12-24 hours from a cold start to full output. To avoid blackouts during the day if wind+sun have issues (calm weather, clouds/storms/smoke from summer fires, or even "high production" from windstorms, etc.)--Utilties have to keep their large generators spinning (burning fuel) and/or use peaker plants (expensive natural gas turbines, perhaps hydro electric, now utility scale battery systems) to manage the loads.

    In the California Independent System Operator graphs--You can watch over the years as the peak loads from utility generators have changed from relatively flat throughout the day to peak loads in the 6pm-10pm time frame (i.e., solar does not help here).

    I remember from 50+ years ago when our utility was advertising folks to buy washing machines and such--Which tended to be used "off peak" times (people home, business shut down for day) to make base load generation easier to manage/more cost effective.

    I installed GT solar for my home something like 15 years ago... Back then, I got the best "credits" from my utility from noon-6pm... Today, something like 4pm to 9pm (summer) when the sun hardly shines.

    https://www.pge.com/tariffs/index.page
    https://www.pge.com/tariffs/assets/pdf/tariffbook/ELEC_SCHEDS_E-6.pdf (my present solar based rate plan--changing to something else soon)

    Its a mess now... Peak power costs are in the $0.50 per kWH range (summer) among the highest costs in the USA. "Renewable" power has not been a cost savings for folks--Especially those people that cannot add GT solar to their residences (renters, condos, low income, etc.).

    In the US, for the typical person, they can look at, very roughly, $1 to $2 per kWH for off grid solar (battery backup for 2 days--Genset after that). And for off grid solar, they are paying much of the money upfront for the hardware and battery bank. Plus replacing the batteries every 5-10+ years, and the electronics every 10+ years. A few folks with lots of effort have gotten their off grid system power costs down towards $0.50 per kWH costs. And GT Solar power systems can easily get to $0.15 per kWH (no batteries/storage--Just solar panels=>GT inverter=>Utility box).

    Energy conservation is key to "saving money", both for solar powered homes, and utility powered homes.

    Measuring you loads (Watts and Watt*Hours per day) is critical to understanding those costs. And help you understand where to spend your money to reduce costs (insulation, more insulation, possibly heat pump based heating/cooling/hot water, more efficient appliances, laptop computer vs desk top system, etc.).

    Not sure what works in Norway (230 VAC, 3 phase powered homes?)... But some USA examples:

    https://www.amazon.com/kill-a-watt/s?k=kill-a-watt (per appliance monitoring)
    https://www.theenergydetective.com/ (whole home monitoring)

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • DaveWatsonDaveWatson Registered Users Posts: 3
    I really appreciate all the info Bill. Its good to get an insight into how things have changed over the years. Yea i'm in Norway, in the south so similar solar radiation to Stavanger. The winter sucks but the summer is decent for production especially if you can track the sun as it swings around the sky. 
  • BB.BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 32,642 admin
    Dave, if you are still reading:

    https://www.sfgate.com/news/article/California-prepares-for-energy-shortfalls-in-hot-17155358.php

    SACRAMENTO, Calif. (AP) — California likely will have an energy shortfall equivalent to what it takes to power about 1.3 million homes when use is at its peak during the hot and dry summer months, state officials said Friday.

    Threats from drought, extreme heat and wildfires, plus supply chain and regulatory issues hampering the solar industry will create challenges for energy reliability this summer, the officials said. They represented the California Public Utilities Commission, the California Energy Commission, and the California Independent System Operator, which manages the state's energy grid.

    State models assume the state will have 1,700 fewer megawatts of power than it needs during the times of highest demand — typically early evening as the sun sets — in the hottest months when air conditioners are in full use.


    Solar power by far makes up the largest share of renewable power, though it peaks during the day and drops off significantly at night when the sun goes down. The state is ramping up battery storage so solar power can continue to be used when its dark, but the state's capacity is still significantly lacking.
    ...
    https://www.reuters.com/world/us/california-says-it-needs-more-power-keep-lights-2022-05-06/

    May 6 (Reuters) - California energy officials on Friday issued a sober forecast for the state's electrical grid, saying it lacks sufficient capacity to keep the lights on this summer and beyond if heatwaves, wildfires or other extreme events take their toll.

    The update from leaders from three state agencies and the office of Governor Gavin Newsom comes in response to a string of challenges with the ambitious transition away from fossil fuels, including rolling blackouts during a summer heat wave in 2020.

    California has among the most aggressive climate change policies in the world, including a goal of producing all of its electricity from carbon-free sources by 2045.

    In an online briefing with reporters, the officials forecast a potential shortfall of 1,700 megawatts this year, a number that could go as high as 5,000 MW if the grid is taxed by multiple challenges that reduce available power while sending demand soaring, state officials said during an online briefing with reporters.

    Supply gaps along those lines could leave between 1 million and 4 million people without power. Outages will only happen under extreme conditions, officials cautioned, and will depend in part on the success of conservation measures.

    In 2025, the state will still have a capacity shortfall of about 1,800 MW, according to officials from the California Energy Commission, Public Utilities Commission, California Independent System Operator and Newsom's office. They also projected annual electricity rate increases of between 4% and 9% between now and 2025.

    ...

    California--Decommissioning dispatchable power plants on schedule(nuclear, natural gas turbines, talking about making rivers "wild again" (taking out dams)). Planned replacements (solar+battery storage+????) behind schedule (COVID, supply chain issues).

    We are not looking good.

    As Kermit says--Its not easy being green:

    -Bill

    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • mike95490mike95490 Solar Expert Posts: 9,582 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Solar power by far makes up the largest share of renewable power, though it peaks during the day and drops off significantly at night when the sun goes down.

    Well, there's the understatement of the year !
    Powerfab top of pole PV mount | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
    || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
    || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

    solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
    gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister ,

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